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Metagame DPP Doubles OU (Explosion Banned)
- Thread starter AIRedzone
- Start date
We've updated our sample teams, perfectly in time for Doubles Vintage! VR update and further revisions to samples will be coming after the end of Doubles Derby IV.
Now that the dust has settled following the Boom ban I want to talk about the current meta within the context of my Derby prep and teambuilding.
Winners:
:Cresselia:
Cresselia massively benefits from the Explosion ban as there's one less move to considerably chunk it. It's also the most reliable speed control user with access to both Icy Wind and Trick Room. I always used it as a lead alongside a bulky Steel-type or strong Fire-type and was able to claw my way out of bad lead positions simply on the merits of Cresselia's ridiculous bulky and Icy Wind. Icy Wind is just such a great move to break lead Focus Sash from Infernape or Gengar and also get chip on both foes. Over time it really wracks up and it's easy to get overwhelmed at -1 speed with Cresselia and a strong partner.
:Tyranitar:
This Pokemon was already good but with Cresselia's dominance, it feels even more mandatory. It's simply a big ball of stats with great coverage and there's little downside to using Tyranitar.
:Kingdra:
oopsgtg suggested to take inspiration from VGC 2013 and try Choice Scarf Kingdra which I brought to my week 1 game vs Nephtyrix (:Metagross::Gengar::Latias::Zapdos::Kingdra::Hitmontop:) and I just find it turns Kingdra into a reliable threat in its own right rather than being completely dependent on a frail rain setter like Gengar or Raikou. Again Kingdra was already good before the Explosion ban but now its one of few Pokemon that can provide solid, reliable* spread damage with a nice neutral defensive typing to boot.
Losers:
:Mew:
The best Boom user is, predictably, worse without Boom. You can try and matchup fish on lead with some Swords Dance / Nasty Plot + Baton Pass cheese or 3 attacks Expert Belt whatever, but it feels very inconsistent and I'd rather just use Cresselia.
:Rotom-Heat:
Without Explosion, Rotom-A and its Ghost-typing don't stand out from its stronger, faster Electric-type counterparts. I did use it once for my week 4 game vs qsns (:Infernape::Cresselia::Metagross::Rotom-Mow::Salamence::Empoleon:) because I specifically needed a Hitmontop check and Grass-type coverage, but outside of unique constructions it's simply worse than Zapdos imo.
:Latias:
I don't think Latias is that much better than either Salamence or Kingdra. All I use nowadays is Haban Berry because Choice locking into Draco Meteor is too risky with a potential Tyranitar or Metagross in the back. Each Dragon-type has their respective niche but they are all super close in viability imo.
Other Thoughts:
I'd like to see Explosion retested maybe after DPP Cup because the ban / DNB margin was pretty close and I'm worried the meta is going in a very durdle direction. Otherwise I think the tier is in a pretty good place, nothing stands out as problematic. Until next time! o7
Winners:
:Cresselia:
Cresselia massively benefits from the Explosion ban as there's one less move to considerably chunk it. It's also the most reliable speed control user with access to both Icy Wind and Trick Room. I always used it as a lead alongside a bulky Steel-type or strong Fire-type and was able to claw my way out of bad lead positions simply on the merits of Cresselia's ridiculous bulky and Icy Wind. Icy Wind is just such a great move to break lead Focus Sash from Infernape or Gengar and also get chip on both foes. Over time it really wracks up and it's easy to get overwhelmed at -1 speed with Cresselia and a strong partner.
:Tyranitar:
This Pokemon was already good but with Cresselia's dominance, it feels even more mandatory. It's simply a big ball of stats with great coverage and there's little downside to using Tyranitar.
:Kingdra:
oopsgtg suggested to take inspiration from VGC 2013 and try Choice Scarf Kingdra which I brought to my week 1 game vs Nephtyrix (:Metagross::Gengar::Latias::Zapdos::Kingdra::Hitmontop:) and I just find it turns Kingdra into a reliable threat in its own right rather than being completely dependent on a frail rain setter like Gengar or Raikou. Again Kingdra was already good before the Explosion ban but now its one of few Pokemon that can provide solid, reliable* spread damage with a nice neutral defensive typing to boot.
Losers:
:Mew:
The best Boom user is, predictably, worse without Boom. You can try and matchup fish on lead with some Swords Dance / Nasty Plot + Baton Pass cheese or 3 attacks Expert Belt whatever, but it feels very inconsistent and I'd rather just use Cresselia.
:Rotom-Heat:
Without Explosion, Rotom-A and its Ghost-typing don't stand out from its stronger, faster Electric-type counterparts. I did use it once for my week 4 game vs qsns (:Infernape::Cresselia::Metagross::Rotom-Mow::Salamence::Empoleon:) because I specifically needed a Hitmontop check and Grass-type coverage, but outside of unique constructions it's simply worse than Zapdos imo.
:Latias:
I don't think Latias is that much better than either Salamence or Kingdra. All I use nowadays is Haban Berry because Choice locking into Draco Meteor is too risky with a potential Tyranitar or Metagross in the back. Each Dragon-type has their respective niche but they are all super close in viability imo.
Other Thoughts:
I'd like to see Explosion retested maybe after DPP Cup because the ban / DNB margin was pretty close and I'm worried the meta is going in a very durdle direction. Otherwise I think the tier is in a pretty good place, nothing stands out as problematic. Until next time! o7
I ended up playing DPP in derby and even though i didnt play it more than 3 weeks i still wanted to make a teamdump of the teams i used in this tier.
First of all, when i signed up for derby i thought i would have mostly warmed the bench and maybe play 1 sv game, however i would have never thought i'd end up playing DPP which was almost new to me (i knew it was no team preview from some vgc 09 games).
That being said lets start!
Week 3 vs Razachu
:Mew: :Gyarados: :Zapdos: :Tyranitar: :Latias: :Metagross:
For my first ever DPP game i didnt have any expectation tbf, the first team i wanted to use was the fake out + cb outrage team dad1 posted here almost 1 year ago, but then after some test games with bello figo i was cool with it but still unsure if it was the best choice for me, so i ended up trying other stuff until Nails decided to build a team, and you know having one of the best players ever build a team for you isnt an everyday thing, so i was super motivated to do well.
Week 4 vs GenOne
:Mew: :Metagross: :Suicune: :Latias: :Zapdos: :Hitmontop:
I really liked the mew metagross latias core and i wanted to play it again, i added suicune as my bulky water and have it in theory as a mid/endgame setup mon, however lefties or sitrus berry are better than lum, i used it because i didnt want to get hit by toxic on the first turn but its not that optimal, in the end i think this team is cool although it wasnt built by nails, regarding my match i think i didnt play as well as my first game even though some misses were involved but i still had fun playing it.
Week 5 vs qsns
:Latias: :Tyranitar: :Cresselia: :Hitmontop: :Metagross: :Heatran:
I was excited to play against qsns as they were doing really well in the tier and i wanted to play at my best to help my team getting in playoffs.
I used this team, courtesy of MADARAAAA , to not immediatly struggle against rain, originally the lead was cress top but we decided to switch to a more aggressive one to put more pressure early on. I think this game was also played well by both and it was fun even though i didint have any supereffective move to hit swampert and my latias decided to sabotage me but thats mons we cant really complain.
Thats it for this teamdump for derby, i also played a natdex dubers game in playoffs but thats a completely different story.
Thank you for reading all of this!
First of all, when i signed up for derby i thought i would have mostly warmed the bench and maybe play 1 sv game, however i would have never thought i'd end up playing DPP which was almost new to me (i knew it was no team preview from some vgc 09 games).
That being said lets start!
Week 3 vs Razachu
:Mew: :Gyarados: :Zapdos: :Tyranitar: :Latias: :Metagross:
For my first ever DPP game i didnt have any expectation tbf, the first team i wanted to use was the fake out + cb outrage team dad1 posted here almost 1 year ago, but then after some test games with bello figo i was cool with it but still unsure if it was the best choice for me, so i ended up trying other stuff until Nails decided to build a team, and you know having one of the best players ever build a team for you isnt an everyday thing, so i was super motivated to do well.
Week 4 vs GenOne
:Mew: :Metagross: :Suicune: :Latias: :Zapdos: :Hitmontop:
I really liked the mew metagross latias core and i wanted to play it again, i added suicune as my bulky water and have it in theory as a mid/endgame setup mon, however lefties or sitrus berry are better than lum, i used it because i didnt want to get hit by toxic on the first turn but its not that optimal, in the end i think this team is cool although it wasnt built by nails, regarding my match i think i didnt play as well as my first game even though some misses were involved but i still had fun playing it.
Week 5 vs qsns
:Latias: :Tyranitar: :Cresselia: :Hitmontop: :Metagross: :Heatran:
I was excited to play against qsns as they were doing really well in the tier and i wanted to play at my best to help my team getting in playoffs.
I used this team, courtesy of MADARAAAA , to not immediatly struggle against rain, originally the lead was cress top but we decided to switch to a more aggressive one to put more pressure early on. I think this game was also played well by both and it was fun even though i didint have any supereffective move to hit swampert and my latias decided to sabotage me but thats mons we cant really complain.
Thats it for this teamdump for derby, i also played a natdex dubers game in playoffs but thats a completely different story.
Thank you for reading all of this!
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Confused about some of these bans since it feels more based on normal ou than doubles ou
small world lol, I'm also hosting a DPP DOU league and this is the board I came up with:
no real data yet since the league hasn't started but in hindsight there are some pokemon I would swap around. ludi and kingdra together was a Board Design thing not really reflective of their value in battle but I maybe should've had them at 14/16; nobody in either division drafted rhyperior and most were apprehensive about going for trick room (which is probably correct, I think trick room is a bit of a trap in draft since the initial setup is kind of linear and EVing for topspeed leaves your opponent with a bunch of free points for bulk to sponge hits they really shouldn't be able to if you go all-in); gyara was maybe undervalued but I suspect it's at least lower impact than hitmontop; I had a 3-point floor for every follow me pokemon because I was high on the move after a double restricted draft but fake out and screens are more popular/impactful setup tools in this format and it led to inflated valuations for stinkers like togetic so I might've shifted them all down by 1. and I just completely forgot about purugly and banette lol I think your placements for those are apt
also my board was based on distortion draft which makes some calls like unbanning trapping (duggy legal is pretty normal in singles draft and it really shouldn't be a problem in doubles). mine also has boom legal because I suspect the ban is probably redundant with mew, who is afaict the most controversial abuser, nixed anyway, although you have eggy and azelf highish so I assume you've also made that call. I also eschewed sand veil + garchomp ban for a sand veil ++ sand stream complex ban which like. we'll see how it goes lol. I will Monitor the Situation
I have been running a league that's been swapping to the next generation of Pokemon every season. Since this is season four, we are doing doubles OU, which is new for us all. Generally speaking, from what I have noticed with my specific league, pricing does vary from standard viability in a regular format due to each pokemon only being available once.
Some pokemon that are really good due to the overabundance of a pokemon they counter are lowered if that threat is gone, as well, some pokemon go higher in value even if they would otherwise struggle due to the fact that roles are limited. Trick Room, weather, support, etc, all have less available options and so pokemon end up becoming substitutes for high tiers that get drafted.
Normally, I would argue moreso about the pointing, however, this season, I did not do the point allocation, rather I handed that off to the undefeated champion from the last three seasons while I worked on the coding in the background. He spoke with some members of the DPP council for tiering, but I can imagine some tiering might have slipped through the cracks. We also consulted tier lists and VRs for information as well, is there anything major wrong with the tiering?
I took part in Derby and VDL. I didn’t get to play much DPP DOU, but I have been building for my team. I think the post-boom metagame is in a healthy state and has a lot of room for further development.
Firstly, I will share my personal viability ranking.
Metagame thoughts
:dp/metagross:
This guy is really good even without boom. I think the best sets are Shuca/Occa Berry lead, just being able to trade favourably with common leads such as Mew, Gengar, Infernape, finish off weakened targets with Bullet Punch, set up Stealth Rock, or pivot out and be useful later in the game. Metagross is a lead that is rarely going to fail you.
:dp/kingdra:
As ned mentioned above, I quite like Scarf Kingdra. It may be unorthodox to use Choice Scarf on a Pokemon that can already double its speed with Swift Swim in rain with no drawback, but I think that it is best used on teams that don’t use rain but rather sand. Choice Scarf Kingdra can clean up weakened foes with ease and so it benefits tremendously from teammates that can help chip down the enemy such as Tyranitar with Sand Stream, Hitmontop spreading Toxic or Metagross using Stealth Rock.
:dp/jirachi:
Jirachi is a fascinating Pokemon to me as someone who approaches DOU from my experience playing doubles in the VGC formats. Despite sharing a typing with Metagross, it manages to find its niche with a vast movepool, better Sp. Def and Speed, and the combination of Serene Grace + Iron Head. There are three sets that I have found to be very effective, firstly is the same Shuca/Occa set that I mentioned Metagross using, as Jirachi stands out by utilising its unpredictable movepool. However, I generally favour Scarf Jirachi over Scarf Metagross as it can leverage the high flinch rate of Iron Head very effectively and it has U-turn for pivoting. Finally, a SubLefties Body Slam set is interesting to just fully lean into the power of ‘RNG management’ by spreading Para and clicking Iron Head, a strategy Code so expertly employed in this VDL Finals Tiebreak game.
:dp/raikou:
I am not a big believer in Raikou. While I understand that screens are very good at enabling your team to survive powerful attacks, the power of the aforementioned chip damage cuts into the benefit of the screens as they cannot reduce the damage of Sand, Poison, Burn, or Stealth Rock. Equally there is counter-play to screens that I think is underused right now like Defog Latias, which can either side target to remove hazards from its own side, or target the enemy to clear screens. Regardless of this it is clearly still a viable strategy, but I think it is easier to punish than most people recognise.
Finally I will leave you with a team. Trick Room has a lot of potential in DPP DOU, I believe, but it is somewhat difficult to build. This paste is weak to Taunt Gengar lead, but I think overall is strong. I'd like to see what Trick Room teams may appear with more meta development. Perhaps (L1?) Smeargle lead is worth a try.
:bronzong: :hariyama: :heatran: :rhyperior: :suicune: :cresselia:
Replay of the team in action: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-2610301288
Firstly, I will share my personal viability ranking.
Metagame thoughts
:dp/metagross:
This guy is really good even without boom. I think the best sets are Shuca/Occa Berry lead, just being able to trade favourably with common leads such as Mew, Gengar, Infernape, finish off weakened targets with Bullet Punch, set up Stealth Rock, or pivot out and be useful later in the game. Metagross is a lead that is rarely going to fail you.
:dp/kingdra:
As ned mentioned above, I quite like Scarf Kingdra. It may be unorthodox to use Choice Scarf on a Pokemon that can already double its speed with Swift Swim in rain with no drawback, but I think that it is best used on teams that don’t use rain but rather sand. Choice Scarf Kingdra can clean up weakened foes with ease and so it benefits tremendously from teammates that can help chip down the enemy such as Tyranitar with Sand Stream, Hitmontop spreading Toxic or Metagross using Stealth Rock.
:dp/jirachi:
Jirachi is a fascinating Pokemon to me as someone who approaches DOU from my experience playing doubles in the VGC formats. Despite sharing a typing with Metagross, it manages to find its niche with a vast movepool, better Sp. Def and Speed, and the combination of Serene Grace + Iron Head. There are three sets that I have found to be very effective, firstly is the same Shuca/Occa set that I mentioned Metagross using, as Jirachi stands out by utilising its unpredictable movepool. However, I generally favour Scarf Jirachi over Scarf Metagross as it can leverage the high flinch rate of Iron Head very effectively and it has U-turn for pivoting. Finally, a SubLefties Body Slam set is interesting to just fully lean into the power of ‘RNG management’ by spreading Para and clicking Iron Head, a strategy Code so expertly employed in this VDL Finals Tiebreak game.
:dp/raikou:
I am not a big believer in Raikou. While I understand that screens are very good at enabling your team to survive powerful attacks, the power of the aforementioned chip damage cuts into the benefit of the screens as they cannot reduce the damage of Sand, Poison, Burn, or Stealth Rock. Equally there is counter-play to screens that I think is underused right now like Defog Latias, which can either side target to remove hazards from its own side, or target the enemy to clear screens. Regardless of this it is clearly still a viable strategy, but I think it is easier to punish than most people recognise.
Finally I will leave you with a team. Trick Room has a lot of potential in DPP DOU, I believe, but it is somewhat difficult to build. This paste is weak to Taunt Gengar lead, but I think overall is strong. I'd like to see what Trick Room teams may appear with more meta development. Perhaps (L1?) Smeargle lead is worth a try.
:bronzong: :hariyama: :heatran: :rhyperior: :suicune: :cresselia:
Replay of the team in action: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-2610301288
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So, I ended up being tossed into the jaws of DPP DOU for 2 tiebreaker sets during VDL, and I'm going to share some thoughts and teams I had while building during that short period of time.
First of all, Mew is one of the best leads in the tier, and despite how much it's already used, I honestly think it could be seeing even more usage. If I was ever struggling to figure out what my lead should be, I usually just circled back to Stealth Rocks Mew. The value of Stealth Rock chip in DPP alone is enough for me to put it in Tier 2, and Mew is also one of the most reliable clickers of it imo. On top of that, it has access to a bunch of other viable sets like the offensive Life Orb/Expert Belt one (even though I'm not much of a fan of that) or something more niche, like the set I used against Jello pasted at the bottom. (Just ignore the part where Mew got sniped T1 by Specs Shadow Ball in the actual game)
Shifting focus to these two guys because I think it's pretty difficult to have one of the two on every team, some of mine even had both. I should preface this by saying, Metagross is a clear Tier 1 and Heatran falls a tier below that simply because Metagross is much more flexible, for example, being able to run Stealth Rocks lead, which I've already pointed out how important that is, not to mention it's not as worried about being sniped by like a stray Ground move. No need to echo what oops said about Metagross above, just going to add that there isn't a world where Metagross isn't top tier since it pressures a majority of the better choices (like Tyranitar and Latias and isn't hindered by Hitmontop either). While both can run Leftovers Substitute, Heatran is better at it, but either way, you make it pretty difficult for your opp to position into a more favorable board state otherwise you'll get a free sub off, and it takes good advantage especially of Toxic and Sand chip from the likes of Hitmontop or Zapdos and Tyranitar, respectively.
Now, I'm not crazy and won't go saying it isn't high tier, but I don't think it's quite as good as people say. Don't get me wrong here, you're guaranteed insane value just by setting Sand as the importance of chip in DPP cannot be understated. However, offensively speaking I have seen it get farmed so hard because Metagross is everywhere, there are a good chunk of good Water-types, and Hitmontop is similarly everywhere. Now, Choice Scarf Tyranitar is slightly less of a victim of being a do-nothing, but still.
I'm getting kinda tired here, so I'm going to give the rest of my thoughts about the good mons in rapid fire. Oops is right about Raikou Screens in his post above, but I still think it makes games very intuitive planning-wise to just set screens (and maybe rocks) off lead, then use that to set up and should not be discounted despite the flaws with chip damage (plus, it's especially good against comps like rain). Suicune is probably the best setup in my eyes, as long as you have some way to keep Toxic in check (e.g. Heal Bell) because it not only does its job being bulky, but Zapdos is the only top tier threat that can farm it; plus, Icy Wind helps its partners to safely make progress as well. Not much to say about Zapdos, it's very good and right up there with Metagross, Mew, and Latias in my mind, but perhaps Toxic+Roost should be taken more advantage of, matter of fact, Toxic stalling type stuff in general should be used more. Scizor is actually a little better in practice than I thought it would be in a meta with a good number of things it doesn't threaten at all; I had success with Choice Scarf Scizor lead (even though leading it is basically annoucing it's Scarfed), and setup fits well on Screens and Rain, as it threatens what it needs to and leaves the rest to its team, simply put. Next, I'm not much of a fan of Gyarados as the setup choice; Special setups are always preferred, and I think Gyarados is just a slightly worse choice than Suicune because Hitmontop just cycles in and out on it, plus Zapdos threatens it even more (and if you do manage to get +1 in front of it, you have to rely on Stone Edge!). It's also not good against Latias and you will get Toxic stalled. Finally, Swampert should be used slightly more, nothing more to add.
Lastly, my opinion on fullroom is that it's not very good. Why? The perk it has is that Bronzong and Cresselia are bulky and great setters, but the issue I have with it is how linear it plays and how exploitable/mid the sweepers are. Literally, a majority of the time I've seen Trick Room it's just Rhyperior dies without getting enough value -> you lose. I tried working on TR with a Suicune or Gyarados setup mode, but it wasn't working out, though it had merit.
Now for the teams that I used/planned on using for VDL tiebreaks:
G1 vs Jello
:Metagross: :Mew: :Heatran: :Zapdos: :Latias: :Hitmontop: This team is imbued with a couple of techs that help it against Rain, most clearly the Sunny Day Hitmontop and Lum Berry Metagross for Wisp Gengar (though, it was originally Metal Coat). Also, not to get sidetracked here, but I saw a couple of Adamant Attack invested Hitmontop from teams released in this thread and let me just say that you're 100% wrong there; run bulky Careful, so it actually does its job properly. Anyway, it also has Soft Boiled on the Mew and Toxic+Roost on Zapdos, among other things like Sub Heatran to help with stalling antics.
G3 vs Jello
:Raikou: :Mew: :Heatran: :Scizor: :Latias: :Suicune: Unfortunately, I did not get to use this one, nor did I get to use my other Raikou team :(. However, the idea is pretty simple: set up Screens and Rocks, then set up with Scizor or Suicune. I forgot where I saw it, but I remember Icy Wind Toxic Latias being pretty cool, and that was my idea of dealing with Zapdos and opposing Gyarados/Suicune.
G1 vs Actuarily
:Mew: :Scizor: :Heatran: :Kingdra: :Tyranitar: :Zapdos:This was heavily influenced by the goats Akhant and oops, as I wanted to try out Scarf Scizor lead (but uhhh, originally, I forgot to make Scizor faster than Scarf Tyranitar, which almost lost me the game--I fixed it now). Then, in my tests with Akhant he had like Shuca Berry Heatran multiple times, so I was like sure, I wanted to change things up a bit and not gamble on Heatran speed ties or be scared about Metagross EQ; it has HP Electric for Gyarados. Scarf Kingdra is a very solid cleaner and gives assurance against Rain, so I think it should be used more.
G2 vs Actuarily
:Latias: :Metagross: :Hitmontop: :Salamence: :Suicune: :Celebi: Pretty simple Suicune setup that utilizes Lorb Latias and CB Salamence as wallbreakers. Mence does struggle a little bit, but Icy Wind Suicune helps it out a little bit in terms of things like Latias and Ice Beam Mew. The star of the show is Celebi, with Heal Bell to counter Toxic for Suicune, outspeeding Heatran and threatening with EP, and threatening Scizor with HP Fire.
G3 vs Actuarily
:Raikou: :Latias: :Heatran: :Tyranitar: :Swampert: :Hitmontop: I didn't get to use it, but it's very simply just Screens+CM lead. I'm a fan of having the Rocks on Tyranitar even in the back, and then otherwise the team relies on Sand chip + Toxic chip.
To my own surprise, I actually had a lot of fun playing and building for DPP. I think it's in a pretty enjoyable spot, and I would honestly play in the future :)
First of all, Mew is one of the best leads in the tier, and despite how much it's already used, I honestly think it could be seeing even more usage. If I was ever struggling to figure out what my lead should be, I usually just circled back to Stealth Rocks Mew. The value of Stealth Rock chip in DPP alone is enough for me to put it in Tier 2, and Mew is also one of the most reliable clickers of it imo. On top of that, it has access to a bunch of other viable sets like the offensive Life Orb/Expert Belt one (even though I'm not much of a fan of that) or something more niche, like the set I used against Jello pasted at the bottom. (Just ignore the part where Mew got sniped T1 by Specs Shadow Ball in the actual game)
Shifting focus to these two guys because I think it's pretty difficult to have one of the two on every team, some of mine even had both. I should preface this by saying, Metagross is a clear Tier 1 and Heatran falls a tier below that simply because Metagross is much more flexible, for example, being able to run Stealth Rocks lead, which I've already pointed out how important that is, not to mention it's not as worried about being sniped by like a stray Ground move. No need to echo what oops said about Metagross above, just going to add that there isn't a world where Metagross isn't top tier since it pressures a majority of the better choices (like Tyranitar and Latias and isn't hindered by Hitmontop either). While both can run Leftovers Substitute, Heatran is better at it, but either way, you make it pretty difficult for your opp to position into a more favorable board state otherwise you'll get a free sub off, and it takes good advantage especially of Toxic and Sand chip from the likes of Hitmontop or Zapdos and Tyranitar, respectively.
Now, I'm not crazy and won't go saying it isn't high tier, but I don't think it's quite as good as people say. Don't get me wrong here, you're guaranteed insane value just by setting Sand as the importance of chip in DPP cannot be understated. However, offensively speaking I have seen it get farmed so hard because Metagross is everywhere, there are a good chunk of good Water-types, and Hitmontop is similarly everywhere. Now, Choice Scarf Tyranitar is slightly less of a victim of being a do-nothing, but still.
I'm getting kinda tired here, so I'm going to give the rest of my thoughts about the good mons in rapid fire. Oops is right about Raikou Screens in his post above, but I still think it makes games very intuitive planning-wise to just set screens (and maybe rocks) off lead, then use that to set up and should not be discounted despite the flaws with chip damage (plus, it's especially good against comps like rain). Suicune is probably the best setup in my eyes, as long as you have some way to keep Toxic in check (e.g. Heal Bell) because it not only does its job being bulky, but Zapdos is the only top tier threat that can farm it; plus, Icy Wind helps its partners to safely make progress as well. Not much to say about Zapdos, it's very good and right up there with Metagross, Mew, and Latias in my mind, but perhaps Toxic+Roost should be taken more advantage of, matter of fact, Toxic stalling type stuff in general should be used more. Scizor is actually a little better in practice than I thought it would be in a meta with a good number of things it doesn't threaten at all; I had success with Choice Scarf Scizor lead (even though leading it is basically annoucing it's Scarfed), and setup fits well on Screens and Rain, as it threatens what it needs to and leaves the rest to its team, simply put. Next, I'm not much of a fan of Gyarados as the setup choice; Special setups are always preferred, and I think Gyarados is just a slightly worse choice than Suicune because Hitmontop just cycles in and out on it, plus Zapdos threatens it even more (and if you do manage to get +1 in front of it, you have to rely on Stone Edge!). It's also not good against Latias and you will get Toxic stalled. Finally, Swampert should be used slightly more, nothing more to add.
Lastly, my opinion on fullroom is that it's not very good. Why? The perk it has is that Bronzong and Cresselia are bulky and great setters, but the issue I have with it is how linear it plays and how exploitable/mid the sweepers are. Literally, a majority of the time I've seen Trick Room it's just Rhyperior dies without getting enough value -> you lose. I tried working on TR with a Suicune or Gyarados setup mode, but it wasn't working out, though it had merit.
Now for the teams that I used/planned on using for VDL tiebreaks:
G1 vs Jello
:Metagross: :Mew: :Heatran: :Zapdos: :Latias: :Hitmontop: This team is imbued with a couple of techs that help it against Rain, most clearly the Sunny Day Hitmontop and Lum Berry Metagross for Wisp Gengar (though, it was originally Metal Coat). Also, not to get sidetracked here, but I saw a couple of Adamant Attack invested Hitmontop from teams released in this thread and let me just say that you're 100% wrong there; run bulky Careful, so it actually does its job properly. Anyway, it also has Soft Boiled on the Mew and Toxic+Roost on Zapdos, among other things like Sub Heatran to help with stalling antics.
G3 vs Jello
:Raikou: :Mew: :Heatran: :Scizor: :Latias: :Suicune: Unfortunately, I did not get to use this one, nor did I get to use my other Raikou team :(. However, the idea is pretty simple: set up Screens and Rocks, then set up with Scizor or Suicune. I forgot where I saw it, but I remember Icy Wind Toxic Latias being pretty cool, and that was my idea of dealing with Zapdos and opposing Gyarados/Suicune.
G1 vs Actuarily
:Mew: :Scizor: :Heatran: :Kingdra: :Tyranitar: :Zapdos:This was heavily influenced by the goats Akhant and oops, as I wanted to try out Scarf Scizor lead (but uhhh, originally, I forgot to make Scizor faster than Scarf Tyranitar, which almost lost me the game--I fixed it now). Then, in my tests with Akhant he had like Shuca Berry Heatran multiple times, so I was like sure, I wanted to change things up a bit and not gamble on Heatran speed ties or be scared about Metagross EQ; it has HP Electric for Gyarados. Scarf Kingdra is a very solid cleaner and gives assurance against Rain, so I think it should be used more.
G2 vs Actuarily
:Latias: :Metagross: :Hitmontop: :Salamence: :Suicune: :Celebi: Pretty simple Suicune setup that utilizes Lorb Latias and CB Salamence as wallbreakers. Mence does struggle a little bit, but Icy Wind Suicune helps it out a little bit in terms of things like Latias and Ice Beam Mew. The star of the show is Celebi, with Heal Bell to counter Toxic for Suicune, outspeeding Heatran and threatening with EP, and threatening Scizor with HP Fire.
G3 vs Actuarily
:Raikou: :Latias: :Heatran: :Tyranitar: :Swampert: :Hitmontop: I didn't get to use it, but it's very simply just Screens+CM lead. I'm a fan of having the Rocks on Tyranitar even in the back, and then otherwise the team relies on Sand chip + Toxic chip.
To my own surprise, I actually had a lot of fun playing and building for DPP. I think it's in a pretty enjoyable spot, and I would honestly play in the future :)
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hullo again, here's another usage post but this time for DPP! I've gotten everything from Derby & VDL as well— BW & XY posts coming soon!
derby
leads
VDL
leads
overall
leads
The doc has been updated & has all oldgen teamtours including VDL, Derby, DPL, last WC, and ORAS + BWPL— should be everything major for all oldgens up to & including ORAS.
doc
derby
leads
VDL
leads
overall
leads
The doc has been updated & has all oldgen teamtours including VDL, Derby, DPL, last WC, and ORAS + BWPL— should be everything major for all oldgens up to & including ORAS.
doc