Gen 4 DPP Latias Test (Latias is now OU)

[sig]

I agree for the most part with what Excal had to say and just wanted to address a few additional things.

Obviously, you (and potentially others) are entitled to feel differently, but I think statements calling for a change to the status quo, which is having Latias in OU ever since the last test concluded, could use some justification in order to give the argument some substance, especially seeing as your time playing DPP seems to be largely a recent thing. I'm not trying to discredit you or even disagree with you, but I am curious as to why you feel this way.

I would not consider Latias or no Latias the "status quo". There has always been a re-vote scheduled and anyone can see that this SPL was used as a testing grounds for Latias and its affect on the DPP metagame. The question then becomes. is the metagame better or not with Latias. I strongly believe that the metagame is less desirable as a resuilt of Latias' addition. The increase in steel types and increased centralization has not only decreased my overall enjoyment for DPP but also increased the variance of the tier (increase in trapping, player record distribution in SPL).

As for my recent pick up of DPP relative to some users, I think this is actually an asset instead of a disadvantage when evaluating the DPP metagame. A lot of the current supports of Latias have expressed sentiments about Latias unjustly being banned ages ago as a reason for its testing. It is clear that their is some personal attachment which I don't have, allowing me to see Latias' affect on DPP more objectively.

 

[Excal]

i have to say it.. calm mind safeguard is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE. i really don't understand why it has been getting so much attention. you are restricting yourself to be able to get in safely, without status, and sweep the whole team from that very moment. you are no longer able to switch into: discharge zapdos, restalk rotom-a, anything that can run toxic (gliscor, zong, bulky waters), spdef tran lava plume, or even random stuff like gyarados/celebi twaves. cm safeguard can beat clef (in a vacuum), but no good clefable team has ONLY clef as the cm latias answer. people like to say "well it beats spdef jirachi", but it doesnt even do that. +6 dragon pulse fails to 2hko, and latias needs to get lucky to win that bout (look at roscoe vs void for example, where cm safeguard lati was still absolutely stone walled by clef + jira), considering just bslam + iron head + sand can run latias out of recovers. at least with refresh latias has the liberty to switch into things without being like "oh fuck, a toxic hippowdon? looks like i cant win now, my safeguard wasnt up!". i think that cm refresh shares a niche with cm hp fire as the third best latias set, behind cm roar + specs. scarf is far too weak to reliably revenge kill things, its pursuit weak, and its strongest move is a double edged sword because youre always allowing more mons to set up after you revenge kill. cm safeguard is a very niche set that needs a TON of support to properly work (dug, mszone, spikes), and in almost all the cases where you have that support, cm refresh will also sweep and provide far more general utility in game

I also don't think CM Safeguard is that good, but I do think it has a niche on certain double trap teams, like you alluded to. The thing I dislike about Calm Mind Refresh is that, unlike CM Safeguard, it loses to every Jirachi with Body Slam, and even if it's statused, I feel like with Tyranitar easily able to switch in, Latias can often have a lot of difficulty finding a free turn to use Refresh after being statused (paralyzation in particular). Sometimes it is definitely more effective to get Latias in safely (which is easy to do with its incredible typing and defensive value) rather than be able to switch Latias into a few more things at the expense of a higher risk dealing with paralysis (which is all over the place right now). While I'm likely underrating CM Refresh, I really do not think it's the third best set in favor of Life Orb sets and ESPECIALLY Thunder Wave sets. Seriously, try Thunder Wave + Reflect. CM Roar is amazing though, so I agree there. I guess maybe I shouldn't have looped CM Safeguard in with "Strong Sets", but with more time to test, it's worth looking into as a potentially strong set. Latias + Double Trap on paper sounds pretty ridiculous (even if currently it has not been up to par), so it's at least worth testing a bit more.

Scarf Latias is fine. I use Draco + Surf + Thunderbolt + Healing Wish sometimes. While it's not preferable, sometimes it can pull specific teams together. It revenge kills DDGyara + potentially DDnite + Kingdra (not much can reliably revenge kill Kingdra). Also, being able to go in with a scarf and use a Healing Wish can come in handy. I find that it's a mon that gets stashed until late game when people try to take the most advantage of DD Sweepers, so optimally it's when Tyranitar has already to some capacity been dealt with. Most scarf mons can cause some shift in momentum. Being locked into Draco can suck, but other Scarf pokemon have potentially bad locks too. People can take advantage of Flygon's Earthquake, Rotom's Thunderbolt (bringing in DDtar or a ground). Granted these might not be as bad as Latias' Draco in many cases, but scarf definitely has a potential niche.

 

[BKC]

I'm not sure there is anything new to this discussion when Latias has clearly shown itself to 1) not be that good and 2) barely even have an effect on the metagame in terms of what Pokemon are being used, just like we knew beforehand. I'll link this post again so I don't make another like it because the points still stand, yet people are still making the same awful arguments even after we have seen Latias in action even longer - I can't believe CM Safeguard is still taken seriously as a threat. There have been many awful arguments, such as the idea that Steels are somehow more common and the utterly farcical notion that the player pool's collective records have anything to do with Latias, but I think this line sums it up:

Latias + Double Trap on paper sounds pretty ridiculous (even if currently it has not been up to par)

yet according to you it's banworthy right

 

[Excal]

I'm not sure there is anything new to this discussion when Latias has clearly shown itself to 1) not be that good and 2) barely even have an effect on the metagame in terms of what Pokemon are being used, just like we knew beforehand. I'll link this post again so I don't make another like it because the points still stand, yet people are still making the same awful arguments even after we have seen Latias in action even longer - I can't believe CM Safeguard is still taken seriously as a threat. There have been many awful arguments, such as the farcical notion that the player pool's collective records have anything to do with Latias, but I think this line sums it up:

yet according to you it's banworthy right

Admittedly it was partly speculative before, but all I'm suggesting is that this whole thing is rushed and we still need more time to test. I feel like at the very least I have provided "new" insight and hopefully helped to facilitate better testing.

 

[BKC]

Your "new insight" was the ridiculous idea that not only is CM Safeguard still too strong, but also that Healing Wish and a set that is completely worthless vs. several of its checks are helping push Latias over the edge.

The second vote isn't until the end of May. Even if that wasn't enough time to make an accurate judgment, if Latias did somehow become broken after that, then the council would re-evaluate it. However, right now it should be clear to anyone with a pair of eyes that Latias is not only not broken but oftentimes not even very good.

 

[Excal]

Your "new insight" was the ridiculous idea that not only is CM Safeguard still too strong, but also that Healing Wish and a set that is completely worthless vs. several of its checks are helping push Latias over the edge.

The second vote isn't until the end of May. Even if that wasn't enough time to make an accurate judgment, if Latias did somehow become broken after that, then the council would re-evaluate it.

I never said in my newest post that CM Safeguard was "too strong", and even clarified that I don't think it's that good. It was simply a mistake late last night that I categorized it as such. Which set do you think is completely worthless?

I do think Healing Wish is ridiculously good, and may be pushing it over the edge and I cited some reasons as to why. Feel free to disagree with me.

but oftentimes not even very good.

Could not disagree more with this.

 

[BKC]

I admit I misread your mention of Safeguard...but I maintain it shouldn't even be getting mentioned. It's utterly awful, even with the full support of those evil double trap teams (which proved themselves to be just as bad and frail as predicted).

Thunder Wave + Reflect is a worthless set. It does nothing except assume that paralyzing things will win games while doing nothing to most of its counters. Sure, it's good vs. some offensive variants of Jira (I thought Jira would be too powerful with Lati around? is it a bad thing that it has a tool to fight back?), Ttar, Meta, Tran and Emp (but it hardly completely destroys them) but it also loses hard to Clefable, Bronzong, Skarmory, SpDef Tran, SpDef Jira, defensive Empoleon, Lum/non-Agility or Scarf Metagross, and still gets maimed by CB Tar. Non-choice variants can also still Pursuit it for good damage because Lati never threatens it so they have plenty of time to attack. Paralyzing most of these Pokemon isn't of the utmost necessity. At least CM sets can aim for some sort of a sweep down the line, but this set gets stalled out by things like Hippowdon, Gliscor and Recover Starmie.

DPP Healing Wish mechanics are terrible and make it incredibly difficult to pull off successfully. The idea of Latias being too good for OU because it can successfully kill itself for one of its teammates is laughable.

 

[Excal]

I admit I misread your mention of Safeguard...but I maintain it shouldn't even be getting mentioned. It's utterly awful, even with the full support of those evil double trap teams (which proved themselves to be just as bad and frail as predicted).

Thunder Wave + Reflect is a worthless set. It does nothing except assume that paralyzing things will win games while doing nothing to most of its counters. Sure, it's good vs. some offensive variants of Jira (I thought Jira would be too powerful with Lati around? is it a bad thing that it has a tool to fight back?), Ttar, Meta, Tran and Emp (but it hardly completely destroys them) but it also loses hard to Clefable, Bronzong, Skarmory, SpDef Tran, SpDef Jira, defensive Empoleon, Lum/non-Agility or Scarf Metagross, and still gets maimed by CB Tar. Non-choice variants can also still Pursuit it for good damage because Lati never threatens it so they have plenty of time to attack. Paralyzing most of these Pokemon isn't of the utmost necessity. At least CM sets can aim for some sort of a sweep down the line, but this set gets stalled out by things like Hippowdon, Gliscor and Recover Starmie.

DPP Healing Wish mechanics are terrible and make it incredibly difficult to pull off successfully. The idea of Latias being too good for OU because it can successfully kill itself for one of its teammates is laughable.

I did a lot of testing with T-Wave Reflect Lati with shockproof and Vay and we came to the conclusion that the set is very good. Paralysis is an incredibly powerful tool to use, and this Latias maximizes its potential. Like I alluded to in my previous post, it's difficult to come in to Latias as a ground type, and its speed and defenses allow it to be one of if not the best paraspreader in the game right now. There are definitely some valid points you've made regarding what it loses to, but firstly, it definitely does not get outstalled by Gliscor, when it outspeeds it, and cleanly 3HKOs it with an uninvested Dragon Pulse:
0 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 135-159 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs. 240 HP / 92 Def Latias through Reflect: 46-56 (12.7 - 15.5%) -- possible 7HKO

I don't think Toxic Gliscor is good anymore (hasn't really been since 2012 or so). The all around best Gliscor set is Taunt, EQ, Ice Fang, and Roost. Perhaps a cleric can even be paired.

While, yes, T-Wave Reflect Latias by itself loses to stall, supporting lethal pokemon like Breloom and CBTyranitar almost flawlessly can make it a very good supporter for the bulky offenses that do very well vs stall (pairing with either special waters or magnezone, for example, for Skarmory).

T-Wave + Reflect makes incredible use of Latias' defensive ability, and I don't think that it simply gets "maimed by CB Tar".
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 240 HP / 92 Def Latias through Reflect: 110-132 (30.4 - 36.5%) -- 50% chance to 3HKO

The above calc is just my spread, but shockproof runs a much bulkier spread (I will ask him to potentially provide that spread), which would take significantly less. Reflect and Thunder Wave do allow counterplay around even CB Tyranitar by fishing for paras and living a hit after reflecting while healthy. All I'm saying is that it's not as simple as "Latias is maimed by CB Tar".

SpD Rachi does not want to be parad at all. I think it could potentially be an issue if Latias can fight back in this way vs Jirachi because outside of Tyranitar, Jirachi is one of the very few solid answers on offense, and I feel that Latias has too much viable counterplay vs its counters.

Last thing I wanted to say is, yes, Healing Wish mechs aren't the strongest, but I don't think it's so difficult to pull off successfully. On top of that, I have used TR Bronzong with Latias Healing Wish to give Latias the option to use it second. Not to say that's how it should always be used, but it is an option. You're definitely underrating the utility of Healing Wish.

As to why I think it's so good is partly explained by your first sentiment: it's amazing vs offense. Its utility in shutting down Breloom and Infernape is absolutely incredible. Like both you and I have agreed on, these pokemon are just as scary as they were before Latias was reintroduced.

I have a few replays, and I will compile a few more, of this set in action. I will update this post with a few replays.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-869599654 vay vs hellpowna (hellpowna uses Metagross, Bronzong, Heatran, and Ttar. Lati still puts in work. Psywave is used which seems like a really cool idea).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-427893 me vs Sinkyr (I didn't play great + got lucky but the Latias put in a ton of work, tanking band swampert pretty handily, I opted for psywave > pulse here but pulse would have done the same if not better in this battle. This team could potentially use the t wave LO set I mentioned but reflect works quite nicely here. T-wave supports the bandtar's entrance on starmie and also the subsplit gengar that I didn't really get to use)

 

[BKC]

In response to sig

From the post I linked (there's more, feel free to go actually read it)

An offensively-minded check to Waters, Zapdos, Grasses, Fires, with a Fighting resist and a Ground immune... these are amazing qualities, and yet it's not like it switches in and begins to completely dominate them/the game. You can't use Latias to just massacre the other guy unless 1) he lets you 2) his team is bad 3) you outplay him significantly. In all 3 cases, what happened was deserved. In more concrete examples, it serves to HELP with all the aspects of DPP people love to hate and not work towards solving - preview, hidden mons, trapping, paraspam, the trio of Fighters. ... Latias is a way to even variance out so the better player can win. Sure, Latias can be one of many Pokemon on Jirachi's hitlist. It can also be the Pokemon that smacks a cocky Jirachi around and rewards its user with a nice advantage. Think of Infernape as potentially being threatening to stall, but if you use it badly it's going to get the tar kicked out of it.

It's also worth mentioning that it is enough to keep Latias unbanned solely because it isn't overpowered in the slightest. It has barely had an effect on the metagame because the same Pokemon and teams that were good before remain good. This is not to say new strategies with it do not exist, but for the most part you are looking at the same metagame (regarding what was most popular and dominant) with Latias added to it. It fit into the pre-existing mold and added some nice touches to it that allowed for some team-specific compression, but by and large what we are seeing has not changed much.

 

[Excal]

Just wanted to mention that BKC and I discussed this a bit more outside of this post, and I understand his opinions on the meta, and agree with some of them. So I wanted to also address another positive that BKC pointed out, and I agreed with: the reduced necessity for Rapid Spin is pretty nice in reducing cumbersome restrictions in teambuilding (also mentioned by august and I alluded to this as well when discussing Latias + Gengar). However, I still feel that what I discussed in some of my previous posts is true: that in my opinion Latias, while not "broken", is a bit too much for this metagame and that the metagame is better without it. I think I've said enough on this topic to a point where I'd be beating a dead horse to keep posting.

it serves to HELP with all the aspects of DPP people love to hate and not work towards solving - preview, hidden mons, trapping, paraspam, the trio of Fighters. ... Latias is a way to even variance out so the better player can win.

The one thing I will reference is from this quote specifically. From my posts above I have mentioned that Latias makes paraspam significantly stronger, so I disagree with that specific sentiment. I'm unsure about whether Latias really contributes to evening variance out so the better player can win.

Edit: Misinterpreted the trapping part

 

[BKC]

You are just hellbent on not reading that post or at least ignoring the inconvenient parts

MagTrio + Latias being overwhelming is a myth at best and false propaganda at worst. Cresselia on those teams, while still not consistent thanks to the incredible matchup-based nature of both the strategy and the effectiveness of the trappers, is still superior to Latias - matter of fact, Latias would provide a great weapon against these teams (a recurring theme that we'll revisit later in this post). It's got much, MUCH better bulk, and does not possess some of Latias' nasty weaknesses - I mean, the Scarf Flygon thing is bad enough, but when your unbeatable trap team is perfectly poised to get completely bent over by Mamoswine then I have a hard time buying it. I'll cover my bases here and throw in a plea to not read this as "latias loses to mamo lol what's the big deal." That's just one example. If you know the tier, there are SO many ways to fuck with Cress (or Lati) but when the players complaining about it aren't familiar enough with the tier to explore options (very likely because they don't build their own teams and also don't play with awareness of the threat which is another matter I'll get to soon) then it is hardly fair to blame Lati. I mean, half these trap teams struggle with something as simple as Roar Swampert (and Hippowdon), for Christ's sake.

tldr: not only do Lati trap teams end up being incredibly fragile and weak to super common shit, Lati itself tends to scare the hell out of them

Para spam? First I should mention that the "it gives jira clef tar another victim" argument blows my mind - it's not good enough to be unbanned? It's not like you're forced to use this shitty Pokemon that leaves you open to everything, like say Rotom-H "countering" Genesect for anyone who remembers that period. Not to mention if a Pokemon is making you weak to those guys and your team can't handle it... don't use that Pokemon, and if the team isn't working out, oh well. That happens all the time now, and I especially don't think there'd be an excuse with Latias considering that it is hardly providing some defensive utility that doesn't already exist; it just helps out a lot and not at all in an overwhelming way. Anyway yeah if you sit around passively against those teams then sure Latias will just be a victim, but if you get out in front then it can topple them pretty easily. They'll have to tread lightly around the Pokemon that can just as easily mess them up as can be messed up by them. This is an example of how it can go either way depending on how the players play... which is what Pokemon's all about. See the Breloom/Ape vs. Latias dynamic for another example, or Jirachi vs. Latias for yet another, or Machamp vs. Latias for another still. Already went over how it assists with trapping too. Hazards are hardly pushing Lati over the edge either with the prominence of Clef, Skarm, Zong. Tar/Jira/Tran don't exactly immediately crumple and there are ways of dealing with hazards, a threat which should be accounted for in general.

 

[Excal]

You are just hellbent on not reading that post or at least ignoring the inconvenient parts


tldr: not only do Lati trap teams end up being incredibly fragile and weak to super common shit, Lati itself tends to scare the hell out of them

My bad, by trapping I thought you meant pursuit trapping, not Dug + Mag stuff.

 

[BKC]

Pursuit is definitely less controversial than those two. It was already a near-essential part of many of DPP's most successful teams before Latias came down. It hasn't increased because of Lati, it's stayed the same because it's important as is and Lati is just another target.

 

[Vay]

I have several questions about the suspect itself :

1) I heard somewhere that the 30 people who got reqs in december would keep them for the upcoming revote, but will new people be given the opportunity to get reqs ?
2) Since Latias has been voted OU in early january, does that mean she won't be banned unless at least 60% voters say "ubers" ?
3) BKC and Jimmy Turtwig told us on the DPP discord that they will make a new Viability Ranking Thread for DPP after SPL is over. Will you guys make the thread after SPL is over or after the revote, when we will be sure about Latias being OU or not ?
4) If Latias gets banned in may/june, will we still have a VR thread ?

 

[Deleted User 108547]

I have several questions about the suspect itself :

1) I heard somewhere that the 30 people who got reqs in december would keep them for the upcoming revote, but will new people be given the opportunity to get reqs ?
2) Since Latias has been voted OU in early january, does that mean she won't be banned unless at least 60% voters say "ubers" ?
3) BKC and Jimmy Turtwig told us on the DPP discord that they will make a new Viability Ranking Thread for DPP after SPL is over. Will you guys make the thread after SPL is over or after the revote, when we will be sure about Latias being OU or not ?
4) If Latias gets banned in may/june, will we still have a VR thread ?

As a player who got the reqs during first suspect I haven't really heard anything about the two first points. Would be great if some council member could clarify those points.

On the other hand, and from what I've seen and read about some DPPers, I bet that Latias will remain OU even in a second suspect. In that case I just want to eco about this post I wrote a cuple of months ago so, please, don't let articles, analysis and guides from the website outdated.

 

[Mr.E]

Latias is the best Dragon in the vacuum, the only thing that makes it somewhat palatable in OU is because Tyranitar and Jirachi are the two most actually broken mons and both happen to counter it. (Meanwhile, Garchomp counters both of those.)

barn all tbh

 

[Varhii]

So now that Lati has been OU for quite a few months, what noticeable changes in the meta have the players who have been around for a while seen. What sort of things have benefited from Lati's existence and what has been hurt by it?

 

[SOMALIA]

Latias = Good team player, sponges fighting hits without being maled by SR which is cool. Still, it isn't nowhere near broken or unhealthy for the tier as it has plenty of counterplay without having to resort to using gimmicks, the best counters are all S/A/B rank mons anyways..... People who cry about it having so many different sets; there are only a few that actual pose trouble and thers are just shitty gimmicks. Specs is a don, CM defensive is garbage lmao, I must have watched at least 50 games of people using it and for what I can remember, it has not being able to sweep more than twice. I find it pretty cool when people use the colbur set to lure and wreck ttar (g knot is POWER) and then make way for their secondary "mon that gets fucked by ttar" to do damage.

Non-latias related: Speaking only from the ladder and a dozen or so DPP open games, there is a overwhelming amount of people using teams that are begging for a spanking by water type offense. Like come on, its not electric type offense we are talking about where there literally isn't any counters that aren't named Blissey to speak. Water type is the best offensive typing at the moment and I'm glad that offensive non choice Swampert is being used more, it is amazing.

Oh, seen another 3 offensive dusknoirs on ladder, YES! might get 0.00001% usage in 10 years time at this rate

 

[Vay]

Ok guys, few weeks ago i asked some questions about how the suspect test will be handled and i didnt get a proper response from the council, so i'll just ask again :

I have several questions about the suspect itself :

1) I heard somewhere that the 30 people who got reqs in december would keep them for the upcoming revote, but will new people be given the opportunity to get reqs ?
2) Since Latias has been voted OU in early january, does that mean she won't be banned unless at least 60% voters say "ubers" ?
3) BKC and Jimmy Turtwig told us on the DPP discord that they will make a new Viability Ranking Thread for DPP after SPL is over. Will you guys make the thread after SPL is over or after the revote, when we will be sure about Latias being OU or not ?
4) If Latias gets banned in may/june, will we still have a VR thread ?

PS : "We don't know yet" is a valid answer too.

 

[M Dragon]

Ok guys, few weeks ago i asked some questions about how the suspect test will be handled and i didnt get a proper response from the council, so i'll just ask again :



PS : "We don't know yet" is a valid answer too.

1) Yes, top 16 of DPP classic will be allowed to vote as well.
2) 50%, since it is the second voting.
3) Not discussed, but probably after the second voting (if Latias is OU after the second voting).
4) Not discussed, probably not.

 

[Atticus]

Latias suxxx

 

[sumwun]

So I decided to take out my mean usage calculator again and average all the stats from November through May, when Latias was allowed, to see how many noobtraps we're no longer using since the tiers stopped updating.

DPP OU (1760 stats)

Combined usage for DPP OU (1760 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
|   0  | Tyranitar          | 62.392% |
|   1  | Jirachi            | 46.490% |
|   2  | Latias             | 32.340% |
|   3  | Heatran            | 28.996% |
|   4  | Starmie            | 28.803% |
|   5  | Skarmory           | 21.076% |
|   6  | Dragonite          | 20.214% |
|   7  | Flygon             | 20.192% |
|   8  | Rotom-Wash         | 19.931% |
|   9  | Breloom            | 18.049% |
|  10  | Swampert           | 17.882% |
|  11  | Rotom-Heat         | 16.964% |
|  12  | Gyarados           | 16.786% |
|  13  | Scizor             | 16.345% |
|  14  | Infernape          | 15.858% |
|  15  | Gengar             | 14.562% |
|  16  | Metagross          | 13.816% |
|  17  | Clefable           | 13.299% |
|  18  | Lucario            | 13.000% |
|  19  | Bronzong           | 12.776% |
|  20  | Zapdos             | 11.581% |
|  21  | Gliscor            | 11.222% |
|  22  | Kingdra            |  9.892% |
|  23  | Empoleon           |  9.498% |
|  24  | Azelf              |  8.602% |
|  25  | Nidoqueen          |  8.467% |
|  26  | Magnezone          |  8.350% |
|  27  | Suicune            |  8.315% |
|  28  | Roserade           |  7.882% |
|  29  | Machamp            |  7.881% |
|  30  | Dugtrio            |  5.902% |
|  31  | Celebi             |  5.065% |
|  32  | Blissey            |  4.291% |
|  33  | Hippowdon          |  4.285% |
|  34  | Milotic            |  3.012% |
|  35  | Aerodactyl         |  2.654% |
|  36  | Shaymin            |  2.247% |
|  37  | Uxie               |  1.992% |
|  38  | Mamoswine          |  1.863% |
|  39  | Abomasnow          |  1.711% |
|  40  | Tentacruel         |  1.580% |
|  41  | Rotom-Mow          |  1.579% |
|  42  | Vaporeon           |  1.497% |
|  43  | Cresselia          |  1.405% |
|  44  | Raikou             |  1.405% |
|  45  | Forretress         |  1.370% |
|  46  | Weavile            |  1.328% |
|  47  | Heracross          |  1.125% |
|  48  | Smeargle           |  0.945% |
|  49  | Jolteon            |  0.921% |
|  50  | Crobat             |  0.894% |
|  51  | Gallade            |  0.638% |
|  52  | Yanmega            |  0.637% |
|  53  | Rhyperior          |  0.607% |
|  54  | Cradily            |  0.533% |
|  55  | Snorlax            |  0.507% |
|  56  | Togekiss           |  0.449% |
|  57  | Slowbro            |  0.436% |
|  58  | Dusknoir           |  0.424% |
|  59  | Ludicolo           |  0.415% |
|  60  | Froslass           |  0.368% |
|  61  | Electivire         |  0.339% |
|  62  | Spiritomb          |  0.310% |
|  63  | Registeel          |  0.308% |
|  64  | Rotom-Frost        |  0.277% |
|  65  | Venusaur           |  0.269% |
|  66  | Donphan            |  0.254% |
|  67  | Qwilfish           |  0.233% |
|  68  | Mesprit            |  0.225% |
|  69  | Cacturne           |  0.220% |
|  70  | Walrein            |  0.202% |
|  71  | Feraligatr         |  0.198% |
|  72  | Hitmontop          |  0.192% |
|  73  | Staraptor          |  0.171% |
|  74  | Kabutops           |  0.168% |
|  75  | Porygon2           |  0.155% |
|  76  | Rotom-Fan          |  0.154% |
|  77  | Alakazam           |  0.149% |
|  78  | Azumarill          |  0.141% |
|  79  | Ninjask            |  0.124% |
|  80  | Aggron             |  0.121% |
|  81  | Quagsire           |  0.114% |
|  82  | Moltres            |  0.111% |
|  83  | Porygon-Z          |  0.110% |
|  84  | Blastoise          |  0.091% |
|  85  | Marowak            |  0.090% |
|  86  | Gastrodon          |  0.069% |
|  87  | Weezing            |  0.063% |
|  88  | Claydol            |  0.061% |
|  89  | Tangrowth          |  0.060% |
|  90  | Nidoking           |  0.054% |
|  91  | Probopass          |  0.053% |
|  92  | Butterfree         |  0.047% |
|  93  | Arcanine           |  0.047% |
|  94  | Exeggutor          |  0.046% |
|  95  | Magneton           |  0.043% |
|  96  | Ambipom            |  0.042% |
|  97  | Mismagius          |  0.041% |
|  98  | Umbreon            |  0.041% |
|  99  | Cloyster           |  0.039% |
| 100  | Sunflora           |  0.038% |
| 101  | Sceptile           |  0.037% |
| 102  | Lanturn            |  0.036% |
| 103  | Honchkrow          |  0.035% |
| 104  | Gorebyss           |  0.030% |
| 105  | Slowking           |  0.030% |
| 106  | Hariyama           |  0.029% |
| 107  | Rampardos          |  0.028% |
| 108  | Charizard          |  0.026% |
| 109  | Toxicroak          |  0.025% |
| 110  | Miltank            |  0.025% |
| 111  | Absol              |  0.024% |
| 112  | Torterra           |  0.024% |
| 113  | Ampharos           |  0.023% |
| 114  | Phanpy             |  0.022% |
| 115  | Swellow            |  0.022% |
| 116  | Steelix            |  0.021% |
| 117  | Blaziken           |  0.021% |
| 118  | Camerupt           |  0.020% |
| 119  | Gardevoir          |  0.020% |
| 120  | Tauros             |  0.019% |
| 121  | Glaceon            |  0.018% |
| 122  | Pikachu            |  0.017% |
| 123  | Drapion            |  0.017% |
| 124  | Lickilicky         |  0.016% |
| 125  | Gabite             |  0.015% |
| 126  | Ursaring           |  0.012% |
| 127  | Slaking            |  0.012% |
| 128  | Articuno           |  0.012% |
| 129  | Skuntank           |  0.011% |
| 130  | Jumpluff           |  0.011% |
| 131  | Omastar            |  0.010% |
| 132  | Entei              |  0.010% |
| 133  | Typhlosion         |  0.010% |
| 134  | Pinsir             |  0.007% |
| 135  | Rapidash           |  0.007% |
| 136  | Muk                |  0.007% |
| 137  | Victreebel         |  0.006% |
| 138  | Hitmonchan         |  0.006% |
| 139  | Hitmonlee          |  0.006% |
| 140  | Lapras             |  0.006% |
| 141  | Bibarel            |  0.006% |
| 142  | Sandslash          |  0.006% |
| 143  | Regirock           |  0.005% |
| 144  | Vileplume          |  0.005% |
| 145  | Medicham           |  0.005% |
| 146  | Luxray             |  0.005% |
| 147  | Floatzel           |  0.004% |
| 148  | Dodrio             |  0.004% |
| 149  | Golem              |  0.004% |
| 150  | Rattata            |  0.004% |
| 151  | Espeon             |  0.004% |
| 152  | Armaldo            |  0.004% |
| 153  | Shuckle            |  0.003% |
| 154  | Crawdaunt          |  0.003% |
| 155  | Poliwrath          |  0.003% |
| 156  | Clefairy           |  0.003% |
| 157  | Houndoom           |  0.003% |
| 158  | Phione             |  0.003% |
| 159  | Hypno              |  0.003% |
| 160  | Magmortar          |  0.003% |
| 161  | Octillery          |  0.002% |
| 162  | Sneasel            |  0.002% |
| 163  | Persian            |  0.002% |
| 164  | Rotom              |  0.002% |
| 165  | Leafeon            |  0.002% |
| 166  | Lopunny            |  0.002% |
| 167  | Piloswine          |  0.002% |
| 168  | Meganium           |  0.002% |
| 169  | Whiscash           |  0.002% |
| 170  | Shedinja           |  0.001% |
| 171  | Linoone            |  0.001% |
| 172  | Regigigas          |  0.001% |
| 173  | Electrode          |  0.001% |
| 174  | Torkoal            |  0.001% |
| 175  | Drifblim           |  0.001% |
| 176  | Scyther            |  0.001% |
| 177  | Electabuzz         |  0.001% |
| 178  | Primeape           |  0.001% |
| 179  | Bastiodon          |  0.001% |
| 180  | Masquerain         |  0.001% |
| 181  | Tropius            |  0.001% |

If tiers updated using these stats:

Clefable moves from UU to OU
Dugtrio moves from UU to OU
Nidoqueen moves from NU to OU
Aerodactyl moves from OU to UU
Dusknoir moves from OU to UU
Forretress moves from OU to UU
Jolteon moves from OU to UU
Mamoswine moves from OU to UU
Ninjask moves from OU to UU
Shaymin moves from OU to UU
Smeargle moves from OU to UU
Snorlax moves from OU to UU
Tentacruel moves from OU to UU
Togekiss moves from OU to UU
Umbreon moves from OU to UU
Vaporeon moves from OU to UU
Weavile moves from OU to UU

spoiler

Electivire moves from OU to UU

Holy crap there were a lot of noobtraps.

 

[Oldamar999]

So I decided to take out my mean usage calculator again and average all the stats from November through May, when Latias was allowed, to see how many noobtraps we're no longer using since the tiers stopped updating.

DPP OU (1760 stats)

Combined usage for DPP OU (1760 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
|   0  | Tyranitar          | 62.392% |
|   1  | Jirachi            | 46.490% |
|   2  | Latias             | 32.340% |
|   3  | Heatran            | 28.996% |
|   4  | Starmie            | 28.803% |
|   5  | Skarmory           | 21.076% |
|   6  | Dragonite          | 20.214% |
|   7  | Flygon             | 20.192% |
|   8  | Rotom-Wash         | 19.931% |
|   9  | Breloom            | 18.049% |
|  10  | Swampert           | 17.882% |
|  11  | Rotom-Heat         | 16.964% |
|  12  | Gyarados           | 16.786% |
|  13  | Scizor             | 16.345% |
|  14  | Infernape          | 15.858% |
|  15  | Gengar             | 14.562% |
|  16  | Metagross          | 13.816% |
|  17  | Clefable           | 13.299% |
|  18  | Lucario            | 13.000% |
|  19  | Bronzong           | 12.776% |
|  20  | Zapdos             | 11.581% |
|  21  | Gliscor            | 11.222% |
|  22  | Kingdra            |  9.892% |
|  23  | Empoleon           |  9.498% |
|  24  | Azelf              |  8.602% |
|  25  | Nidoqueen          |  8.467% |
|  26  | Magnezone          |  8.350% |
|  27  | Suicune            |  8.315% |
|  28  | Roserade           |  7.882% |
|  29  | Machamp            |  7.881% |
|  30  | Dugtrio            |  5.902% |
|  31  | Celebi             |  5.065% |
|  32  | Blissey            |  4.291% |
|  33  | Hippowdon          |  4.285% |
|  34  | Milotic            |  3.012% |
|  35  | Aerodactyl         |  2.654% |
|  36  | Shaymin            |  2.247% |
|  37  | Uxie               |  1.992% |
|  38  | Mamoswine          |  1.863% |
|  39  | Abomasnow          |  1.711% |
|  40  | Tentacruel         |  1.580% |
|  41  | Rotom-Mow          |  1.579% |
|  42  | Vaporeon           |  1.497% |
|  43  | Cresselia          |  1.405% |
|  44  | Raikou             |  1.405% |
|  45  | Forretress         |  1.370% |
|  46  | Weavile            |  1.328% |
|  47  | Heracross          |  1.125% |
|  48  | Smeargle           |  0.945% |
|  49  | Jolteon            |  0.921% |
|  50  | Crobat             |  0.894% |
|  51  | Gallade            |  0.638% |
|  52  | Yanmega            |  0.637% |
|  53  | Rhyperior          |  0.607% |
|  54  | Cradily            |  0.533% |
|  55  | Snorlax            |  0.507% |
|  56  | Togekiss           |  0.449% |
|  57  | Slowbro            |  0.436% |
|  58  | Dusknoir           |  0.424% |
|  59  | Ludicolo           |  0.415% |
|  60  | Froslass           |  0.368% |
|  61  | Electivire         |  0.339% |
|  62  | Spiritomb          |  0.310% |
|  63  | Registeel          |  0.308% |
|  64  | Rotom-Frost        |  0.277% |
|  65  | Venusaur           |  0.269% |
|  66  | Donphan            |  0.254% |
|  67  | Qwilfish           |  0.233% |
|  68  | Mesprit            |  0.225% |
|  69  | Cacturne           |  0.220% |
|  70  | Walrein            |  0.202% |
|  71  | Feraligatr         |  0.198% |
|  72  | Hitmontop          |  0.192% |
|  73  | Staraptor          |  0.171% |
|  74  | Kabutops           |  0.168% |
|  75  | Porygon2           |  0.155% |
|  76  | Rotom-Fan          |  0.154% |
|  77  | Alakazam           |  0.149% |
|  78  | Azumarill          |  0.141% |
|  79  | Ninjask            |  0.124% |
|  80  | Aggron             |  0.121% |
|  81  | Quagsire           |  0.114% |
|  82  | Moltres            |  0.111% |
|  83  | Porygon-Z          |  0.110% |
|  84  | Blastoise          |  0.091% |
|  85  | Marowak            |  0.090% |
|  86  | Gastrodon          |  0.069% |
|  87  | Weezing            |  0.063% |
|  88  | Claydol            |  0.061% |
|  89  | Tangrowth          |  0.060% |
|  90  | Nidoking           |  0.054% |
|  91  | Probopass          |  0.053% |
|  92  | Butterfree         |  0.047% |
|  93  | Arcanine           |  0.047% |
|  94  | Exeggutor          |  0.046% |
|  95  | Magneton           |  0.043% |
|  96  | Ambipom            |  0.042% |
|  97  | Mismagius          |  0.041% |
|  98  | Umbreon            |  0.041% |
|  99  | Cloyster           |  0.039% |
| 100  | Sunflora           |  0.038% |
| 101  | Sceptile           |  0.037% |
| 102  | Lanturn            |  0.036% |
| 103  | Honchkrow          |  0.035% |
| 104  | Gorebyss           |  0.030% |
| 105  | Slowking           |  0.030% |
| 106  | Hariyama           |  0.029% |
| 107  | Rampardos          |  0.028% |
| 108  | Charizard          |  0.026% |
| 109  | Toxicroak          |  0.025% |
| 110  | Miltank            |  0.025% |
| 111  | Absol              |  0.024% |
| 112  | Torterra           |  0.024% |
| 113  | Ampharos           |  0.023% |
| 114  | Phanpy             |  0.022% |
| 115  | Swellow            |  0.022% |
| 116  | Steelix            |  0.021% |
| 117  | Blaziken           |  0.021% |
| 118  | Camerupt           |  0.020% |
| 119  | Gardevoir          |  0.020% |
| 120  | Tauros             |  0.019% |
| 121  | Glaceon            |  0.018% |
| 122  | Pikachu            |  0.017% |
| 123  | Drapion            |  0.017% |
| 124  | Lickilicky         |  0.016% |
| 125  | Gabite             |  0.015% |
| 126  | Ursaring           |  0.012% |
| 127  | Slaking            |  0.012% |
| 128  | Articuno           |  0.012% |
| 129  | Skuntank           |  0.011% |
| 130  | Jumpluff           |  0.011% |
| 131  | Omastar            |  0.010% |
| 132  | Entei              |  0.010% |
| 133  | Typhlosion         |  0.010% |
| 134  | Pinsir             |  0.007% |
| 135  | Rapidash           |  0.007% |
| 136  | Muk                |  0.007% |
| 137  | Victreebel         |  0.006% |
| 138  | Hitmonchan         |  0.006% |
| 139  | Hitmonlee          |  0.006% |
| 140  | Lapras             |  0.006% |
| 141  | Bibarel            |  0.006% |
| 142  | Sandslash          |  0.006% |
| 143  | Regirock           |  0.005% |
| 144  | Vileplume          |  0.005% |
| 145  | Medicham           |  0.005% |
| 146  | Luxray             |  0.005% |
| 147  | Floatzel           |  0.004% |
| 148  | Dodrio             |  0.004% |
| 149  | Golem              |  0.004% |
| 150  | Rattata            |  0.004% |
| 151  | Espeon             |  0.004% |
| 152  | Armaldo            |  0.004% |
| 153  | Shuckle            |  0.003% |
| 154  | Crawdaunt          |  0.003% |
| 155  | Poliwrath          |  0.003% |
| 156  | Clefairy           |  0.003% |
| 157  | Houndoom           |  0.003% |
| 158  | Phione             |  0.003% |
| 159  | Hypno              |  0.003% |
| 160  | Magmortar          |  0.003% |
| 161  | Octillery          |  0.002% |
| 162  | Sneasel            |  0.002% |
| 163  | Persian            |  0.002% |
| 164  | Rotom              |  0.002% |
| 165  | Leafeon            |  0.002% |
| 166  | Lopunny            |  0.002% |
| 167  | Piloswine          |  0.002% |
| 168  | Meganium           |  0.002% |
| 169  | Whiscash           |  0.002% |
| 170  | Shedinja           |  0.001% |
| 171  | Linoone            |  0.001% |
| 172  | Regigigas          |  0.001% |
| 173  | Electrode          |  0.001% |
| 174  | Torkoal            |  0.001% |
| 175  | Drifblim           |  0.001% |
| 176  | Scyther            |  0.001% |
| 177  | Electabuzz         |  0.001% |
| 178  | Primeape           |  0.001% |
| 179  | Bastiodon          |  0.001% |
| 180  | Masquerain         |  0.001% |
| 181  | Tropius            |  0.001% |

If tiers updated using these stats:

Clefable moves from UU to OU
Dugtrio moves from UU to OU
Aerodactyl moves from OU to UU
Dusknoir moves from OU to UU
Forretress moves from OU to UU
Jolteon moves from OU to UU
Mamoswine moves from OU to UU
Ninjask moves from OU to UU
Shaymin moves from OU to UU
Smeargle moves from OU to UU
Snorlax moves from OU to UU
Tentacruel moves from OU to UU
Togekiss moves from OU to UU
Umbreon moves from OU to UU
Vaporeon moves from OU to UU
Weavile moves from OU to UU

spoiler

Electivire moves from OU to UU

Holy crap there were a lot of noobtraps.

Maybe it would be different in this case, but usage shifts are based on 1630 stats and not 1760 ones. The 1630 stats would be more accurate. Not like it matters anyway but still

 

[Vay]

I think Weavile Mamo and Shay will be UUBL if anything. Plus i understand where these "tier shifts" come from, but there are still people playing DPP UU for UUPL (and maybe other stuff i'm not aware of) and maybe they don't want their tier to change (that's a geniuine maybe btw, i have no idea of what these guys are thinking about it)

 

[M Dragon]

The second voting will start this weekend (6 months after the first one).
This is the list of voters:

Original voters:
Luigi
Fear
ABR
Excal
Astamatitos
M Dragon
Cased
SoulWind
crayon pop
The Kyle
Tamahome
Century Express
Lavos
snøfall
Pkel SweeTforU
Sayuze
Sakito
august
Kaisser
Finchinator
Seven Thunders
johnnyg2
Vay
TDK
Triangles
DeepBlueC
zf
Fener
Emeral
Marshall.Law

Top 16 DPP classic:
BKC
Mana
BIHI
Lopunny Kicks
Groudon
byronthewellwell
Altina
Pohjis
Malekith
zugubu royale
Jytcampbell
ima
UltraBallz