Metagame DPP LC

I would prefer to suspect Dynamic Punch or No Guard as opposed to Machop as a whole if possible. Machop as a pokemon is not what breaks it, as for the most part fighting stab Dynamic Punch would be broken on any fighting type not named Tyrogue on this gen. The main difference compared to OU is that Machop isn't as strictly defined by Dynamic Punch, as even without Dynamic Punch there aren't any better pokemon that fill the niche of "Bulky Fighting Type" as simply none of the others have the stats for it. This directly contrasts DPP OU where Machamp's stats and other attributes weren't bad, but also not a major selling point.

I personally don't have a massive preference between targeting No Guard and Dynamic Punch, but knowing the track record of this site going after No Guard given the distribution of Dynamic Punch.
 
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SEA said:
I would very much like to second this, there is no legitimate reason for us to keep Dynamic Punch around. Machop is still a valuable trade piece, so I think keeping it around is a positive, but Machop has 2 extremely viable alternatives to Dynamic Punch: Close Combat if you want to run Guts, and Cross Chop if you want to run No Guard, which has the exact same power and PP as DPunch. Added crit chance is a little cheesy, sure, but would you rather take a 50% chance to not use a move or a 12.5% chance to be crit? Machop forcing coinflips both in swaps into punch and literal confusion flips is a net negative on this format. Please nuke dpunch.
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i would really like to see this happen. especially with ou giving precedent i have never really seen why we allow dynamic punch, honestly; other tiers with machoke slowly came around to this conclusion as people started understanding the brokenness of the move

also i will say it doesn't really matter to me which one we suspect but i'd rather be in line with what ou did simply because it makes tiering easier. i don't really care if we ban machop bc i think without dynamic punch that thing isn't half as good anyway so no loss to me
 
Please do not make fun of me for being a Machop apologist after being negative about Cranidos but I don't think any of Machop/No Guard/Dynamic Punch should be addressed. Part of the essence of DPP LC is how much the tier evolves without tiering changes through simply people being creative with new stuff. Removing Machop or one of its key component (I think speculation of how good Machop is without Dpunch is irrelevant, otherwise we can start banning boom on Gastly) throws away a lot of progress that has been made over the years. There are multiple good to fine ways of being mostly positive into Machop turn 1.

I also don’t think the DPP OU comparison is that fair. DPP LC plays very differently, especially in terms of pacing. A lot of games are heavily decided in the first few turns, and how you handle leads and early positioning matters a ton. Machop is strong, but it’s part of that early-game dynamic that very oppressive stuff like Wailmer, Aipom or Voltorb are also part of. The Dynamic Punch variance doesn't feel all that different from the guesswork being played against the whale and it's likely-hood to explode on your water-check turn 3, or whether this Aipom is running Substitute, Shadow Claw, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, or is just U-Turning to its Stunky.

Echoing my thoughts on Cranidos, I just think DPP LC is not in need of tiering changes, tier is functional and super popular (most picked tier in LCCL and Greedy invitational) - maybe Machop would be the one that deserves it if we started acting but surely we don't need to act.
 
I don't think banning Dynamic Punch changes any of those dynamics. Comparing Dynamic Punch to Explosion is a false equivalence; one requires skill to execute, and one is more brainless with heavy RNG repercussions. I also want to state that Machop is also good outside of the lead slot, where the late game RNG can be more consequential.

Also the OU comparison for me was a joke, particularly because LC tiering decisions in current day appear to be crippled by the tiering framework set by OU tier leading.
 
i was initially gonna make a more general post here since my lccl team got eliminated, which would probably include a teamdump and even my own vrs (its probably a good idea to post them before lcpl at least?), but i think its fair for me to first address all this current talk of potential bans in more detail than i did in discord since ive been playing dpp lc in teamtours for a while now and am pretty much the catalyst for this whole discussion popping up in the first place.

firstly, i kinda have to agree with the notion of cranidos being rly oppressive. im p sure u can count the number of mons that are even able to switch into two head smashes and still survive on one hand. bronzor is the main one and its like the easiest thing to overwhelm as its already expected to handle half of the metagame (gligar, snover, normal types, croagunk, etc), not mentioning that cranidos can just eq and there goes bronzor. the others are like bulky ground types which are hard to fit due to having poor mu against lot of the established meta (gligar, snover, bronzor, gastly, all the waterspam). trapinch could take two head smashes with oran and it traps and ohkos crani which is nice sure, but its kinda a momentum sink after and it also wants to trap munchlax and stunky, not to mention if crani crits its gone. u can try hippo, phanpy, onix but yea like i said theyre hard to build with since they just sux vs most of the meta as half of the mons on most teams resist/are immune to ground. any other rock resist is deleted by two head smashes or by cranis other coverage should it opt to use those.
this basically means the counterplay to crani is to sack something to head smash (u often see people throw munchlax in due to its high hp) then revenge kill with priority from like gunk or snover, but if crani is positioned well it doesnt need to use head smash, something that the crani player wants to put themselves ideally. this might open itself up to being pursuit trapped by a healthy lax (or stunky/houndour if locked into zhb) and that can mean its able to be picked off by priority sure, but that also just means crani can come back later and terrorise something else if its in position.
as for scarfers, many of the common ones like snover or machop dont outspeed crani to begin. meanwhile, people throw their scarf wailmer into crani hoping to win the speed tie/be faster/miss head smash/stone edge at best while at worst having crani lose over half its hp from head smash recoil, which is just rly silly, might be in the favor of the wailmer player but its just not interactive. faster scarfers like gligar and chinchou can be used but these mons also have other purposes that make slapping a scarf on them less than ideal, esp for chinchou. like yes there is counterplay to this mon but if it often means ur expected to sack a mon or even two, esp for teams without bronzor, just to deal with it then isnt that kinda grounds for concern anyways? as an aside, its not like crani has any defensive utility in this tier, its most useful trait is resisting fake out but u obv dont want it to switch in on any attack lol so that u can more easily throw out head smashes.

as for machop, i would 100% prefer a ban of dynamicpunch or no guard instead. i think a no guard ban would be way more doable for the sole reason that machop is the only mon with no guard whereas other mons learn dynamicpunch and are obv not busted by it, altho i think dynamicpunch is just rng nonsense to begin with so why not remove it. sure it might alter the meta lots and that goes against what people like about dpp which is that the meta evolves naturally despite minimal tiering changes, but no guard dynamicpunch just makes machop beat mons it has no business beating otherwise if the rng goes right which is downright silly. either way, please just dont ban machop entirely ban no guard/dynamicpunch instead cause machop has actual defensive traits and stats that lot of other fighters in dpp dont have.

honestly while were on this topic of potential bans, i need to mention why is baton pass just unrestricted here like lmfao??!?? it sounds silly to bring it up randomly as obv im aware it hasnt quite manhandled dpp lc the same way it has in other metas despite attempts to make it work, but this move is just unserious to me all it does is promote cheese. the good mons that have bp (gligar, aipom) already have uturn and anything else viable thats using bp isnt using it to drypass. only thing is that it hasnt seen much tour success as of now so who gaf i guess but i still think this shit is uncompetitive and should be gone rofl, its not like adv ou where we have drypass zapdos and celebi as meta staples or whatever.

i think a tiering poll from the active playerbase (if thats feasible/something we do here) followed into any potential suspect would make sense cause its p clear that the playerbase is divided on if/how we approach this.


also, we rly need to update some of the sets on the site because stuff like the download porygon set thats picked up as of late still isnt on there, not to mention adjusting the sets of all the 2010 ass analyses to modern standards and not just machop.
 
i am honestly very happy about winning dpp lc cup. i'm obviously extremely disconnected from competitive pokemon at this point but finally getting a dpp lc tournament win and winning my first individual tournament in nine years actually feels pretty great, even if it's not the most prestigious thing in the world and it took my fair share of fortune to get there. i likely won't be playing another tournament for a long while so felt a post was in order. nothing i did in my run reinvented the wheel. i stuck with sound concepts the whole way through and just used what i think are the best pokemon and sets every single game, so i don't have any particularly captivating teams or sets to share unfortunately. instead there are some things i think need to be said about the current meta and some particular pokemon and interactions.

Meta Thoughts

Gligar & Defensive Utility

gligar has been consensus top three for roughly 15 years, but honestly i think at the moment its nowhere close. i have had an exceptionally difficult time justifying it's use on teams over my last few tournaments (i played 29 games between lcwc and dpp lc cup and brought gligar a grand total of 2 times (lcwc w3 vs evakiyama & dpp lc cup r1 game 2 vs iss)) and i think the reason for that is it's difficulty maintaining a significant and specific defensive niche. in dpp lc everything hits hard, everything is capable of dealing meaningful damage, so to separate yourself you need to either be able to output unspeakable damage (think cranidos, wailmer, explosion users) or be able to provide substantial defensive utility in nearly every battle. munchlax, bronzor, and chinchou clearly have value outside of just what they can switch into, but they're eternal because of the amount of flexibility they give you defensively. gligar finds itself in a very awkward position where, due to its typing, essentially every relevant pokemon aside from itself frequently runs a move capable of killing it in one hit. there simply aren't important pokemon it can even semi-reliably be tasked to switch into outside of opposing gligar and stunky, and when something struggles to find positions to enter the battle i begin to struggle to find teams to put them on. your good traits matter less if you're incapable of being in the battle to use them. this is all without saying how hard gligar gets shut down by bronzor and koffing, which i both believe are incredible right now independent of their ability to invalidate gligar.

obviously it still does amazing things: it's one of the few pokemon with stealth rock access, it hits 19 speed, it can set up effectively, it can pivot effectively. it also does still have some defensive niches: being a true flying type is great into cranidos, it has the natural bulk to stomach neutral physical attacks in a pinch like stunky crunch or munchlax return, it has two immunities. it has great traits, and i am sure i am vastly underusing gligar relative to its actual strength, but my overarching points still remain and i believe gligar is very weak at the moment compared to how we have known it for years.

Gastly & Ghostless Teams

gastly has been facing similar issues to gligar, albeit on a smaller scale. stunky simply existing and being extremely good makes any game more uncomfortable for gastly, and the recent rise of zen headbutt on munchlax has severely lessened it's opportunities to safely enter the battle given munchlax has been its primary assignment for years. due to its speed, three relevant immunities, and most importantly, its access to explosion it's still great, but it's definitely less convenient to use than a year or two ago. i even saw my precious hp ground gastly make an appearance in lccl finals, so there are ways gastly can attempt to push past these adaptations.

with stunky being fantastic and gastly not having the same ease of use it has been known to, ghostless teams have begun feeling like a good alternative much more often than they used to. obviously forgoing a ghost leaves you with teambuilding holes to fill, but removing the conventional restriction of forcing one of gastly or duskull onto your team allows for considerable flexibility. the primary roadblock you run into without a ghost is how to deal with munchlax, and the best way i've found it is to just have nothing it can come in on. my team in game one of cup finals proves a good example: five physical attackers, including 9 speed superpower munchlax to consistently win the mirror. the last is koffing, who i believe is a big winner on ghostless structures. it gives you effective machop counterplay in the absense of a ghost, fills the levitate slot, and can will-o-wisp munchlax, all while having explosion access. running not a single thing munchlax conventially likes to switch into leaves your opponent in an awkward position. you can also go in the complete opposite direction and just muscle through it with droves of special attackers. reflect bronzor and staryu can assist by providing ways to stomach munchlax hits. theres plenty of ways to make it work and i've been enjoying dropping ghosts quite a bit.

Wailmer & Scarfers

i think wailmer is the second best pokemon in dpp lc currently. the amount of pressure it exerts between water spout, self-destruct, and it's coverage is simply immense, and between its ability and massive hp pool there are enough situations where it is defensively relevant to make it hard to justify not using it on most teams. through lcwc and dpp lc cup i have used wailmer on 70% of my teams, my second most used pokemon by a huge margin. in those games i used choice scarf, oran berry, mystic water, and custap berry as items, and wacan berry and choice specs are viable also. it has a vast item pool, it has just enough power, speed, and bulk to make use of all it's tools, i use it on nearly every team.

wailmer is probably the best choice scarf user in the tier, but i've noticed the pool of scarfers i'm willing to consider has grown increasingly shallow. aside from a single scarf machop used in round 2, the only choice scarf pokemon i used in dpp lc cup were wailmer, cranidos, and chinchou. i ran four teams where diglett was my form of speed, and another few with no scarfer or diglett, but every other team found a way to slot one of those 3 into the team. i realized i was refusing to utilize the 14 speed scarfer pool because of how omnipresent wailmer and cranidos are, and facing either of them without a way to outspeed or force a tie felt like it was playing with fire. from my usual scarfers wailmer and cranidos feel obvious, but chinchou i was impressed by. the fact it outspeeds both of the others and can one shot them, along with it actually maintaining a lot of defensive utility while holding a scarf has made it a go to for me, particularly against wailmer and cranidos spammers.

Tiering Action

Cranidos

i don't resonate with the outcry around cranidos, though i'm maybe slightly more sympathetic to the cause than i was a few months ago. as mentioned above, cranidos detonating everything makes it difficult to justify running slow scarfers, but i think that restriction in the builder is really the only justifiable criticism of keeping cranidos in the tier.

cranidos is strong as shit and is able to kill basically the whole tier if you just click the right move and hit everything, and this would be a massive issue if it had any way to safely enter the battle and didn't kill itself clicking its strongest move. luckily for us, those restrictions bake in natural counterplay to every team, and knowing the gamestate and building well can allow you position around it and the 50/50s cranidos causes. i believe there are lesser explored options against cranidos, such as trapping it with sucker punch life orb diglett or actually using croagunk now and again. priority is good. i don't think cranidos is too strong honestly, and i also do not find points regarding cranidos inconsistent accuracy compelling. the nuke only hitting 80% of the time is not unique to cranidos and i personally don't find it to be more of an issue than any other pokemon leaning on inaccurate moves. i think it might be due to how i play (throughout both lcwc and my dpp cup run i have used cranidos nine times. in those games, i was able to attack with it 17 total times. i used earthquake 10 times, superpower five times, stone edge twice. i used head smash zero times) but i am almost never in a situation where im hinging a game on cranidos having to connect a string of moves, and i'm on the recieving end of that situation rarely as well. i think there are real consequences to cranidos but i don't view them as significant enough to warrent a ban.

No Guard

for me personally, this is a more desirable angle if we do commit to some sort of tiering action. machop is pretty bullshit. the amount of progress you can be granted by simply clicking dynamic punch is pretty gross, and if we're dismayed about the 50/50s cranidos creates we cannot ignore the ones created by dynamic punch and the remainder of machop's coverage. i don't find scarf machop to be particularly good, and at the lead every team should have a good plan for how to react to machop, but the variance it creates is pretty disgusting in my opinion and for me personally decides games much more frequently than cranidos misses and the like. i personally used lead machop in roughly 40% of my games across lcwc and dpp lc cup, nearly all of them being focus sash, and won over 80% of those games. it's not engaging, it's not rewarding, it's not fun, and it's very strong. that said it's obviously not good to the point of being broken or anything, and there are functional albeit not great leads that get you advantages vs machop leads, but i view it as uncompetitive enough to warrent serious ban discussion.

i want to be specific im talking about no guard here. dynamic punch ban would be fine too, but i'm unconvinced we would even be allowed to do that. a ban of machop itself should probably be off the table, it has traits no other pokemon has and with a no guard or dynamic punch ban would still have a niche and see fringe play.


all in all im proud of my dpp lc cup run. i beat a lot of great players and won without getting an activity win or bye, and im satisfied i was finally able to win something in the one tier i've played in the last 10 years. i think dpp lc is in a good spot and theres much more room to push and innovate despite me not really doing so throughout the tournament. i had many insane ideas and nearly brought some bullshit several times, theres plenty of ideas left to be tried.
 
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