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OU DPP OU Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Excal
- Start date
I just had the idea that a standardized test of DPP OU could be developed. Like similar to a Network+ or Security+ exam where a test taker needs to achieve a certain score to pass and be certified. For example, Network+ has 90 total questions and a passing score is 720/900 (I think some questions are weighted more than others, not exactly sure how it's scored).
A set of sample questions could be:
What is the best reason as to why Jirachi should carry at minimum 32 Speed EVs?
a. To outspeed minimally invested Swampert
b. To outspeed minimally invested Latias
c. To outspeed non-Scarfed Jolly Tyranitar
d. To outspeed non-Scarfed Jolly Breloom
Out of the following Pokemon, which is the least likely to be found in the lead position?
a. Azelf
b. Smeargle
c. Machamp
d. Celebi
Which of the following is not a reason for why Dugtrio was banned?
a. It's Arena Trap ability promoted the unhealthy use of Shuca berries over other items
b. It's Arena Trap ability promoted the unhealthy use of Choice items over other items
c. It's Arena Trap ability punished the use of key defensive Pokemon that were crucial for holding the metagame together
d. Calm Mind Clefable can abuse Dugtrio and his Arena Trap ability and be really difficult to beat
Which of the following berries halves damage taken from a supereffective Steel-type attack?
a. Babiri
b. Pomeg
c. Haban
d. Iapapa
When constructing a hyper-offensive (HO) team, which set of Pokemon would be most likely to follow this playstyle?
a. Hippowdon, Celebi, Clefable, Skarmory, Rotom-H, Latias
b. Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Dragonite, Gengar, Tyranitar, Lucario
c. Machamp, Roserade, Jirachi, Rotom-H, Togekiss, Latias
d. Aerodactyl, Skarmory, Dragonite, Blissey, Gengar, Lucario
An offensively EV'd Dragonite switches in from full health and takes Stealth Rock damage, you have a LO Gengar, does his Shadow Ball get the KO?
a. Yes
b. Yes, but only if it crits
c. No
d. Possibly, it depends on the damage roll as well as Gengar's nature
Of the following moves, which is not 4x resisted by Lucario?
a. U-turn
b. Sucker Punch
c. Rock Blast
d. Lick
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs 244 HP / 164+ SpD Tentacruel falls in what damage percentage range?
a. 46.4% - 55.2%
b. 50.5% - 59.0%
c. 72.8% - 84.1%
d. 82.3% - 91.5%
Idk in a way it seems too easy, but it could be interesting to develop a test and see how people fair against it. Obviously non-competitive players won't fair too well, but experienced players with esoteric knowledge may find the test fun. I probably would do more damage percentile range questions because I feel that that is a sign of an experienced player (the more you play the more you develop a natural feel for how much damage a move will do).
A set of sample questions could be:
What is the best reason as to why Jirachi should carry at minimum 32 Speed EVs?
a. To outspeed minimally invested Swampert
b. To outspeed minimally invested Latias
c. To outspeed non-Scarfed Jolly Tyranitar
d. To outspeed non-Scarfed Jolly Breloom
Out of the following Pokemon, which is the least likely to be found in the lead position?
a. Azelf
b. Smeargle
c. Machamp
d. Celebi
Which of the following is not a reason for why Dugtrio was banned?
a. It's Arena Trap ability promoted the unhealthy use of Shuca berries over other items
b. It's Arena Trap ability promoted the unhealthy use of Choice items over other items
c. It's Arena Trap ability punished the use of key defensive Pokemon that were crucial for holding the metagame together
d. Calm Mind Clefable can abuse Dugtrio and his Arena Trap ability and be really difficult to beat
Which of the following berries halves damage taken from a supereffective Steel-type attack?
a. Babiri
b. Pomeg
c. Haban
d. Iapapa
When constructing a hyper-offensive (HO) team, which set of Pokemon would be most likely to follow this playstyle?
a. Hippowdon, Celebi, Clefable, Skarmory, Rotom-H, Latias
b. Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Dragonite, Gengar, Tyranitar, Lucario
c. Machamp, Roserade, Jirachi, Rotom-H, Togekiss, Latias
d. Aerodactyl, Skarmory, Dragonite, Blissey, Gengar, Lucario
An offensively EV'd Dragonite switches in from full health and takes Stealth Rock damage, you have a LO Gengar, does his Shadow Ball get the KO?
a. Yes
b. Yes, but only if it crits
c. No
d. Possibly, it depends on the damage roll as well as Gengar's nature
Of the following moves, which is not 4x resisted by Lucario?
a. U-turn
b. Sucker Punch
c. Rock Blast
d. Lick
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs 244 HP / 164+ SpD Tentacruel falls in what damage percentage range?
a. 46.4% - 55.2%
b. 50.5% - 59.0%
c. 72.8% - 84.1%
d. 82.3% - 91.5%
c d b a b b d a
Idk in a way it seems too easy, but it could be interesting to develop a test and see how people fair against it. Obviously non-competitive players won't fair too well, but experienced players with esoteric knowledge may find the test fun. I probably would do more damage percentile range questions because I feel that that is a sign of an experienced player (the more you play the more you develop a natural feel for how much damage a move will do).
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This seemed fun so I've listed out my answers to the standardised test. Answers hidden below.
Nice, but you only answered the first two (edit nvm it needed to be expanded). Also I now put my answer key behind a spoiler.
Edit: And yea I realize now that the MixNite set tends to run a Nature that subtracts from SpDef. I didn't take that into account I was just assuming a nature that doesn't interfere with Dragonite's SpDef which would not get Dragonite to get KO'd by a Timid or Modest Gengar set.
On second thought I could specify in the question that it is a DDnite, or actually I think this might be a better way to structure the question:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An offensively EV'd Dragonite switches in from full health and takes Stealth Rock damage, you have a LO Gengar, does his Shadow Ball get the KO? Note that both Pokemon assume standard sets.
a. Yes
b. Yes, but only if it crits
c. No
d. Possibly, it depends on the damage roll
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here the answer would still be b because the standard Gengar set for LO Gengar uses a Timid/Naive nature which would still miss KOs on DDnite as well as MixNite, unless a crit happens.
Also interestingly this question could test the concept of standard sets, not necessarily damage percentages. We could allow a damage calculator on this question, since it would require the test taker to have knowledge of standard sets (but somehow disable the autofill of the sets). On the other hand, the questions that ask for an exact percentage range wouldn't allow use of a damage calc.
Edit: And yea I realize now that the MixNite set tends to run a Nature that subtracts from SpDef. I didn't take that into account I was just assuming a nature that doesn't interfere with Dragonite's SpDef which would not get Dragonite to get KO'd by a Timid or Modest Gengar set.
On second thought I could specify in the question that it is a DDnite, or actually I think this might be a better way to structure the question:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An offensively EV'd Dragonite switches in from full health and takes Stealth Rock damage, you have a LO Gengar, does his Shadow Ball get the KO? Note that both Pokemon assume standard sets.
a. Yes
b. Yes, but only if it crits
c. No
d. Possibly, it depends on the damage roll
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here the answer would still be b because the standard Gengar set for LO Gengar uses a Timid/Naive nature which would still miss KOs on DDnite as well as MixNite, unless a crit happens.
Also interestingly this question could test the concept of standard sets, not necessarily damage percentages. We could allow a damage calculator on this question, since it would require the test taker to have knowledge of standard sets (but somehow disable the autofill of the sets). On the other hand, the questions that ask for an exact percentage range wouldn't allow use of a damage calc.
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I'll keep the explanation brief -
Primarily due to its Magic Guard ability which gives it immunity to status, entry hazards, and sand. In combination with usable special bulk and a solid set of supporting moves it becomes easy to fit Clefable on a lot of OU teams. Blissey is another special wall but sees less usage then Clefable because she typically requres the removal of entry hazards to be as effective as Clefable. Typically Blissey is only used over Clefable when certain use-cases need to be met, like surviving strong Specs attacks or other strong special sweepers. Clefable is a lot more flexible than Blissey and other special walls, which is why it is now a premier DPP OU mon.
But shouldn't this go in Simple Questions, Simple Answers?
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I don’t know about the simple questions and simple answers part
But this really helped, ty
I was just thinking that it is unfortunate that Jirachi doesn't get Sucker Punch, it would help a lot versus like Scarf Rotom and Gengar. It's just because I'm running a Body Slam + Iron Head Jirachi but also want to cover those Ghosts that Body Slam can't hit. If he did get that move I bet it would nearly be standard to help cover faster Ghosts. You would assume that Jirachi would get Sucker Punch since he gets access to all the elemental punches and Drain Punch.
It also makes zero sense that Rotom and Latias get Sucker Punch but not Jirachi (I don't even think they have arms/fists).
It also makes zero sense that Rotom and Latias get Sucker Punch but not Jirachi (I don't even think they have arms/fists).
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Thing is, that logic doesn't really work because Sucker Punch isn't a punching attack. It's a rather unfortunate translation from its JP name, ふいうち (lit. "Surprise Attack"), where a name like "Cheap Shot" would've worked just fine without getting it confused as a punch, especially in the same gen where Iron Fist became a thing.
Given that, it makes sense for Rotom because it has that kind of personality (even if it's not good at using it), but Latias? Yeah, that's a bit sus.
I was just thinking that if Heatran got Serene Grace a cool set he could run would be:
252 HP / 252+ Speed w/ Leftovers (more research could be done on the EVs but this is just a good starting point)
Substitute
Protect
Lava Plume
Iron Head
60% burn rate and flinch rate would make him deadly. Combo it with Sub + Protect and it would be an effective set imo. A good partner would be Breloom to help deal with bulky waters, Clefable, and Tyranitar if he avoids getting burnt. Leech Seed loom with Force Palm and Seed Bomb now that I'm thinking of it could be the best partner (passing Leech Seed to Heatran would be nice). Another partner to help round out this synergy could be Zapdos for a Fighting resist and a good Thunderbolt. Or maybe Latias since now we need a Fire resist since Heatran would no longer have Flash Fire. Actually definitely a Latias with Earthquake to help cover opposing Heatrans.
Just something on my wishlist.
252 HP / 252+ Speed w/ Leftovers (more research could be done on the EVs but this is just a good starting point)
Substitute
Protect
Lava Plume
Iron Head
60% burn rate and flinch rate would make him deadly. Combo it with Sub + Protect and it would be an effective set imo. A good partner would be Breloom to help deal with bulky waters, Clefable, and Tyranitar if he avoids getting burnt. Leech Seed loom with Force Palm and Seed Bomb now that I'm thinking of it could be the best partner (passing Leech Seed to Heatran would be nice). Another partner to help round out this synergy could be Zapdos for a Fighting resist and a good Thunderbolt. Or maybe Latias since now we need a Fire resist since Heatran would no longer have Flash Fire. Actually definitely a Latias with Earthquake to help cover opposing Heatrans.
Just something on my wishlist.
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Something as powerful as a theoretical serene grace Heatran would probably become Uber after not too long. As interesting and fun to use as that would be, I just don't see Heatran currently possessing enough strength clerically in order to be skilled enough to possess an ability like that. Even mere moves, like Heal Bell and Wish would add an extreme diversity factor to Heatran. Which is arguably one of the best Pokemon in the OU tier in DPP OU as it is. Some speculate that Serene Grace as an ability is far too broken and that LESS Pokemon should be able to possess such a rare ability that can debilitatingly overcome unprecedented odds to a good person on a Sunday morning.
Yea it probably would be broken but just theoretically maybe GameFreak could release a Serene Grace Heatran as like a rare event Pokemon or something like that. So like 1/10,000 in-game Heatrans would have Serene Grace.
Not really translatable to the competitive scene since that's not how it works but interesting to think about.
Not really translatable to the competitive scene since that's not how it works but interesting to think about.
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It would probably be used heavily in either OU or UBER, perhaps both. 60% burn rate from a Lava Plume Heatran would be quite the spectacle, I agree. Plus, a whole lot of fun lol. =]
I have always been growing every more curious togaquest and to anyone who may be reading this.
The PP of clerical moves like Recover, Roost, and even Rest and Accupressure, Have they always been completely immune to the ability "Pressure"? And were moves like this immune to the effects of the ability Pressure IN-GAME, in DPP on the Nintendo DS?
I'm sorry if this was mentioned before, but what is Gallade's position in the tier?
His moveset is stellar, having a whole bunch of utility options (knock off, trick, trick room, willo, screens, protect) while also having a whole slew of physical attacking options as well (CC, psycho cut, leaf blade, ice punch, night slash, shadow sneak to name a few) and has a very good SpDef as well. I have been making teams with Gallade for a bit as well as seeing other sets posted about Gallade and it finds its position very well, whether it be a more offensive option or a utility option.
I wanted to pose this question to gauge on other's thoughts on his place in the tier. I know he is UUBL however it doesn't seem like bringing Gallade onto a team has the same weight as bringing some other UUBL mons like Abomasnow or Honchcrow for that matter.
His moveset is stellar, having a whole bunch of utility options (knock off, trick, trick room, willo, screens, protect) while also having a whole slew of physical attacking options as well (CC, psycho cut, leaf blade, ice punch, night slash, shadow sneak to name a few) and has a very good SpDef as well. I have been making teams with Gallade for a bit as well as seeing other sets posted about Gallade and it finds its position very well, whether it be a more offensive option or a utility option.
I wanted to pose this question to gauge on other's thoughts on his place in the tier. I know he is UUBL however it doesn't seem like bringing Gallade onto a team has the same weight as bringing some other UUBL mons like Abomasnow or Honchcrow for that matter.
It's a mon that some people have experimented with, but hasn't caught on to a large degree. Some of the moves you mention form a trick scarf lead set with wisp, trick, cc, and a filler depending on the team. I've also seen SD gallade teams.
As to whether it will establish a permanent position in the tier, I am not sure.
I was just asking, I recently used it in every (or most) rounds of the most recent tour I was in (DPP SSNL) and it was always pretty good whether I was running BO, HO, or balance teams. I have tried out semi stall as well however that still needs work admittedly.
I was just thinking that some good pros are that it really is good on a spikes team, especially since some of the mons players I see use to pivot into an attack really suffer from spikes. It is also an encore user which I forgot to mention, and a Twave user.
I just wanted to know whether I was crazy or not, since after using it for a lot I see even though it has very obvious and glaring drawbacks it shouldn't be as underused as it is, and just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy for thinking so.
Gallade's typing is bad defensively, meaning it can't pivot into anything reliably without losing a lot of health. This means it will have difficulties filling any role that isn't the lead slot or last pokemon set up. Other pokemon with good Base stats such as Porygon-Z, Azelf or Alakazam face similar issues, you will notice how rare Azelf is outside the lead slot.
Lead Gallade potentially wins a lot of matchups. Lum Berry - Close Combat + Shadow Sneak + Wisp is perhaps its most effective set, forcing burns on defensive backbones such as Latias and Hippo and forcing Bulky lead such as Empoleon and Heatran to make a choice between getting rocks or trading health. However Gallade now only has one move left, and requiring it to choose between Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, Trick and Taunt. This Gallade set also bad against Suicide Leads and pure Anti-Leads such as Azelf, Dragonite, Gyarados, Latias, Zapdos and even Machamp if you don't carry Zen Headbutt. Skarmory is alo dicy if you don't carry Taunt or guess its set wrong. The 4 attacks / SD set twists some matchup in its favor such as Azelf Machamp and Dragonite, but gives up its avantageous opening vs stall. No matter the set, Gallade fails to cover a large portion of the lead metagame, and that makes it a very middling lead. While the Wisp innovation was a nice, I would still consider it a poor man's Machamp.
SD Gallade is outdone by Lucario. Both have similar speed and attacking stats, both are cleanly checked by Gliscor, Hippo and offensive Jirachi and both benefit from hazards just like you noticed. However SD Gallade has only access to the much inferior priority Shadow Sneak compared to Extreme Speed, making it unable to pick off common threats such as Flygon, Infernape. Gallade also really needs Life Orb to land its KOs, leaving it highly susceptible to revenge kill from priority since it doesn't resist Bullet Punch and Extreme Speed. Lucario's resistances to Dark, Dragon are highly desirable since they are commonly used by choice locked users. Gallade's only relevant advantages over Lucario is its ability to escape Magnezone, and rare occasions to sd on weak special attackers.
While Encore is a decent option, it is ill fitted for a pokemon with such a bad defensive profile. Lopunny uses it (still ?) to success in SM, but in DPP the Gallade will get chipped by sand. All in all while Gallade isn't too bad, but there's no actual reason to use it. There are a lot of better fighting types in Overused.
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Don't you think that the current meta is very boring? In my opinion, dropping Latias and banning Dugtrio was not a wise move. Besides, it's always the same with Jirachi, fable or loom in every team. You are even forced to try inventions like rstalk rachi for Spore loom. I don't know if the solution is to ban Spore, Magic Guard.... But it's been a long time since I was bored with a generation that was always my favorite, but I think it's now in the red.
on the sleep debate sleep can be stupid sometimes but not more than in others gens, yeah some sets like rest talk jirachi can make loom look broken, but u'll see those sets on stall, or on teams with swampert or slow mons weak to breloom, breloom is very strong against stall, and as a para-abuser, but it's not broken against everything, vs most offense it'll have trouble getting more than one kill https://pokepast.es/8271a3ead2a9a9b9 without a lot of support.
When u play stall u have to account about the strong wallbreakers in your tier, and breloom is one of them, having to build around it is nothing special, in sm u have to build around gliscor sd facade, sd medicham sd mawile
Personnally i don't really like roserade, as missing sleep powder and the duration of your sleep, makes it too inconsistent to my taste, but in the case of breloom, it's 100% reliable (outside of the duration) the mon is slow and frail so it feels balanced to me on that aspect, maybe it's too good of a para abuser, but i'd say we'd have to look more on the direction of defensive latias and iron head jirachi, though it's already been talked about, and depending on how the players feel and vote they'll see if they want to change things in the years to come.
Overall i don't feel restricted in the building a lot of mons are very strong in this meta and not completely explored like gliscor (offensive and defensive), donphan, quagsire, the new role of lucario and infernape in this meta, balance teams, i've used defensive latias set on offensive teams with some success, the sd breloom facade max speed in paraspam not used a lot but very strong with tests, especially with some baton pass supports (another new thing).
if u find the meta boring and repetitive, it's a good occasion to abuse it, (btw i'm a believer than one day dug will be ban in adv, cause people we'll make snorlax and cune teams broken as abr is doing, we'll see).
Agreed, trapping in general is controversial as not only does it restrict the player from movement, it automatically grants the trapper a free turn to eliminate their target. (Pursuit is the healthier version, as Pursuit is a specific move that doubles in damage upon switching out, Pursuit is also balanced by only 40 base power)
I'm assuming the ban of Dug was influenced by both Gen 5 & 6, by Gen 4 when the offense has become plentiful that you could make an offensive team work as opposed to Gen 3, Dug becomes even more centralizing because it allows both offense & stall teams alike to eliminate a specific disruptor in mind. Hence why in Gen 7, Stall was rampant thanks to Dug.
Honestly, keeping Dug banned was the right choice, it's only appropriate in Gen 3 as offensive firepower isn't plentiful enough against fat Pokemon such as Blissey, Celebi, & Jirachi. Same goes with Mag specifically against Skarm & Forretress.
I'm assuming the ban of Dug was influenced by both Gen 5 & 6, by Gen 4 when the offense has become plentiful that you could make an offensive team work as opposed to Gen 3, Dug becomes even more centralizing because it allows both offense & stall teams alike to eliminate a specific disruptor in mind. Hence why in Gen 7, Stall was rampant thanks to Dug.
Honestly, keeping Dug banned was the right choice, it's only appropriate in Gen 3 as offensive firepower isn't plentiful enough against fat Pokemon such as Blissey, Celebi, & Jirachi. Same goes with Mag specifically against Skarm & Forretress.
I believe Dugtrio should never be unbanned. The combination of no Team Preview and Arena Trap is simply too powerful. It's like your opponent can, at any moment, force you to lose something important. That's not a concessions; it's just a turn loss.
Therefore, I strongly support the Latias metagame (is possible without dug), especially since it serves as a good answer to Breloom (ChoiceTalk on offense e.g.), which has always been a Pokémon that forces you to make concessions and recover the tempo.
For those still enjoying the metagame, I'd like to recommend this set for testing. I used it back in 2015-2016, and I believe it has only aged better with time. It's perfect against Gyarados switch-ins and a great mid/late-game resource.
Gliscor @ Yache Berry
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Thunder Fang
- Ice Fang
Edit: I'm interested in competing at a casual level and keeping the format active. As I've recently returned to the community after years away, I'd like to know how I can contribute to ensuring a good frequency of tournaments and support my favorite metagame. If someone could reach me by DM or something like that, I would be grateful (so as not to turn this into a discussion that deviates from the topic of the post).
Therefore, I strongly support the Latias metagame (is possible without dug), especially since it serves as a good answer to Breloom (ChoiceTalk on offense e.g.), which has always been a Pokémon that forces you to make concessions and recover the tempo.
For those still enjoying the metagame, I'd like to recommend this set for testing. I used it back in 2015-2016, and I believe it has only aged better with time. It's perfect against Gyarados switch-ins and a great mid/late-game resource.
Gliscor @ Yache Berry
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Thunder Fang
- Ice Fang
Edit: I'm interested in competing at a casual level and keeping the format active. As I've recently returned to the community after years away, I'd like to know how I can contribute to ensuring a good frequency of tournaments and support my favorite metagame. If someone could reach me by DM or something like that, I would be grateful (so as not to turn this into a discussion that deviates from the topic of the post).
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I just saw DBC's post on Jirachi and the way he wrote it made it sound like the DPP higher ups have already decided that it's gonna be gone regardless of who else wants what and they're just trying to figure out how to do it without pissing people off. I honestly don't see it as banworthy. And not in the sense that was being talked about in the post where it's problematic but shouldn't be acted on because it keeps other stuff in check, but in the sense that I'm just legitimately fine with it. Is it very good? Yes. Is it's ability to tilt RNG a significant reason as to why it's good? Yes. Rachi has won me games, and it has won other people games against me, but never from either end of it have I felt that it was too much and need to go. Same for Latias, Machamp, and Sleep, the other things mentioned in that thread. Are they very strong tools? Yes. Are they so good that they're broken/banworthy? Not in my experience.
Just to reassure you; this is not the case, as per the post, only a few people on the council are of this opinion:
At any given time in the past, there have been a few people on the council who were thinking about acting on Jirachi in some way. To me it reads as some of those coming to an agreement on how it should be done.
By the way, if you want to add to the thread but do not have permission, I'd advise you to request it here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/policy-review-access-request/ . DBC has been looking for input from people who think this way in Smogon's public DPP discord (discord message).
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Alright, I trust that. DBC putting "TL;DR Jirachi is banworthy" at the end of his post, along with a couple other things in the body of the post just set off the alarm bells in my head that the decision was already made though. A couple other DPPers who are higher level than me and actually main the tier were getting similar vibes from the post when I was talking with them about it. Just figured that might be worth mentioning.
I also posted a submission request like you suggested.