Pokémon Dragalge

[Jaguar360]

I actually agree. This thing reminds me of Mega Camerupt in that you can throw around damage calculations on how strong it is, but unless it's up against one of the few things it beats one on one (or is in Trick Room I guess) it may have difficulty switching in and getting a KO.

You could probably run damage calculations of Choice Band Rampardos and show how that, too, destroys the meta. Doesn't make it good in OU though.

The difference between Mega Camerupt and Dragalge is that Camerupt is so slow that it is outsped by literally everything except Ferrothorn, while Dragalge can at least run enough speed investment to get past common slow, bulky Pokemon like defensive T-tar, Assault Vest Azumarill, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Slowbro, bulky Scizor and Sylveon. This allows it to shine against balance teams and some stall teams, and if it's on a Pokemon that can't kill it outright on offense, something on the opposing team will faint.

It is true that Dragalge can still struggle to get in, but it does usually have a few openings per battle and the effects are great when it is able to fire off an attack or two.

 

[Jaroda]

This is why I nominated him for C+/B- in the viability thread. If you think he's unviable, you're kidding yourself. The question is whether or not its what your team needs. Here are his unique selling points.

Typing: Only Dragon/Poison type in the game. Defensively you get 7 resistances and 4 weaknesses with no 4x weakness, plus a Toxic immunity. This is good defensive typing.
STABs: Strongest special Dragon and Poison attacks in the tier. The combination is disastrous for Fairy types, especially when you consider the lack of strong Poison moves in circulation.
Scald: Dragalge is the only Dragon type other than Kingdra to get access to Scald, the difference being that Kingdra is a sweeper and doesn't use this move, and wouldn't run a defensive set to benefit from the burns.
Voltturn resistance: Dragalge resists both U-Turn and Volt Change. Doesn't sound like much, but it is nonetheless a perk, as I've shown before, he's bulky enough for Subs to survive everything barring STAB U-Turns from Beedrill and Scizor.

Is two biggest flaws are his Speed and no instant recovery. Specs sets will be forced out frequently, there's no denying that. He's very hard to use against HO. There isn't enough that he can switch into of his own volition and switch out on his own. Recover, Sub, Sludge Bomb and Dragon Pulse/Scald would be an amazing set.

That said, he is pretty great against Stall, Balance and BO. He actually ends up being far far bulkier than Latios because you always get to invest in HP, but you also get to run Black Sludge if you want, coupled again by potential Scald burns. All this coupled with Adaptability makes him a very great balance of bulk and power. And while he's slow, most recommended sets run enough speed to give several enhanced matchups against defensive mon that don't run speed like Clefable.

As was shown Dragalge functions optimally in a core like with Skarmory or Mega Gyarados. He isn't something you can slap on any team like Latios or Greninja, but he has a definitive niche and can be really tough to get by for certain teams. I'm still working on and perfecting a team with him, I'll give an example when I'm done perhaps.

 

[Flamebot]

I haven't got around to testing the core yet, which is why I'm not gonna post it in the Good cores thread, but Jirachi, atleast to me sound like a good partner as it provides wish support and handles Latios/Latias and actually pretty much any Special attacker that checks Dragalge
It's still revenge killed by Talonflame and Ninja though, so theres that but over all it seems like a good core(Perhaps talonflame would complete the core as it checks other Talonflames and checks Greninja too)

Edit:Mega Manetric works well for this core too, but then Scarf Landorus is even more of a problem+3 ground weaknesses is bad

 

[Seth Vilo]

I haven't got around to testing the core yet, which is why I'm not gonna post it in the Good cores thread, but Jirachi, atleast to me sound like a good partner as it provides wish support and handles Latios/Latias and actually pretty much any Special attacker that checks Dragalge
It's still revenge killed by Talonflame and Ninja though, so theres that but over all it seems like a good core(Perhaps talonflame would complete the core as it checks other Talonflames and checks Greninja too)

Edit:Mega Manetric works well for this core too, but then Scarf Landorus is even more of a problem+3 ground weaknesses is bad

In a fairly similar vein, Bronzong also provides great support for much of the same reasons as Jirachi does. Both are great checks to Psychic, Ice, and Dragon moves, act as more dedicated special walls, and can stack hazards that Dragalge loves. However, Jirachi compounds the Ground weakness rather nastily, especially with crap like Lando-T being freaking everywhere, as well as adding a way Magnezone can exploit you if you don't run U-turn. Jirachi provides Wish, as you said, which is awesome and helps Dragalge a lot, but I've found that the most common things switched into Jirachi as it Wishes are things with either Fire moves (Char-X, Talon), Ground moves (Lando-T, Gliscor, Lando-I, etc), or both (Heatran, some Char-X), so often Dragalge can't come in to receive the Wish.

I'm still testing this beautiful monster as well. I love slow Volt-Turn and Wishes for it, as well as hazard stacking to quickly wear down the Steels that come in on your STABS. Chesnaught, though compounding the Ice weakness, helps absorb physical hits for Drag, lays Spikes, and can help a bit on healing with Seeds. It's also a fabulous Lando-T counter.

EDIT: I accidentally typed "Bronzong" where I should have typed "Jirachi". No, Bronzong doesn't get Wish. I needed coffee..... >.<

 

[Jaroda]

As far as Wish support goes for Dragalge its best partners are probably Alomomola or a Fairy. Alo's ridiculous HP stat and Regenerator make it obscenely easy to pass Wishes as well as spread more Scald burns. Togekiss on the other hand is immune to both Ground and Dragon, which is huge, and can also use Thunder Wave or Defog to remove hazards and slow down faster threats making Dragalge far more dangerous. I'm actually surprised I'm only now just thinking this. You'd need that Ice weakness covered of course though. Then of course there is Clefable and Sylveon who can also lend Heal Bell support too, or Gardevoir which is a very good check to the Latis.

 

[Seth Vilo]

As far as Wish support goes for Dragalge its best partners are probably Alomomola or a Fairy. Alo's ridiculous HP stat and Regenerator make it obscenely easy to pass Wishes as well as spread more Scald burns. Togekiss on the other hand is immune to both Ground and Dragon, which is huge, and can also use Thunder Wave or Defog to remove hazards and slow down faster threats making Dragalge far more dangerous. I'm actually surprised I'm only now just thinking this. You'd need that Ice weakness covered of course though. Then of course there is Clefable and Sylveon who can also lend Heal Bell support too, or Gardevoir which is a very good check to the Latis.

My god the Togekiss idea is brilliant... I need to play with that. So far though, I've been using Alomomola as my primary Wishpasser on Dragalge teams. Clefable and Sylveon just get worn down too easily, and Alo has weaknesses that Dragalge can very easily exploit, making the actual pass part very easy. Thinking a touch more on it, Togekiss has that nasty Rock, Steel, and Ice weakness though, as well as high SpD, meaning strong physical Ice or Rock moves will likely be aimed her way, which Dragalge doesn't want to switch into... Maybe a slow Baton Pass (with the potential for Nasty Plots holy crap bombs away)? Can't deny the usefulness of parahax though. If you feel particularly like worshiping Satan and being hated by your peers, pair them up with Wishpassing SpD Jirachi for extra fun. Paralyze their whole team, Air Slash and Iron Head your way through crap, and nuke whatever's left with Drag, being condemned to the depths Smogon Hell by the community as you do so.

My current issue in team tinkering is what Mega to pair with this thing. I've settled on a bulky or stall oriented team (half cause I love Chesnaught so much), and I keep cycling back and forth between Gyarados, Altaria, Sableye, or other totally random things but focusing on the first three. Altaria gives Heal Bell support, and an excellent excuse to run Alomomola since they pair up as well, giving the full cleric roles between them. Sableye and Gyarados both love Drag's Fairy-killing powers and general team softening. All enjoy Toxic Spikes absorbing too, which are on the rise in the 1300-1400 ladder area for some reason.

 

[Jaroda]

Hmm, a double paralysis/flinch Wish passing core with Dragalge thrown in? That does in deed sound evil with enough resistances all around to function. Physical Jirachi should have no problem with those Poison, Steel, Rock and Ice moves. That could be fun to play around with. You could allow Jirachi to be the Wish passer and set rocks and Togekiss can Paralyze and Defog in that case.

Mega Gyarados would definitely be a good mega to have their. That core will need something like Mold Breaker and Taunt to handle Stall teams, and Gyara will have a much easier time setting up dances if offensive teams are paralyzed. Mega Heracross obliterates Stall and would be a huge monster with paralysis support, or Mega Gardevoir. One of the mediocre speed megas that wrecks stall naturally would love the paralysis core.

 

[D_what]

Quick related question; what are the viable paralysis spreaders in OU, besides Togekiss and Jirachi? (Which are really more about parahax than paralysis anyway). I know Rotom-W can run Thunder Wave, but I love Will-O-Wisp on the lil' washing machine and the two conflict. On the other hand, it's immune to Earthquake and resists Ice, and provides a slow Volt Switch for Dragalge. Plus 4x Grass resistance <3 2x Grass weakness etc etc. But then "Hey DAE think Rotom-W has good synergy with everything" isn't really news.
Prankster TW from Thundurus and Klefki I guess; pseudo fairy-steel-dragon core with Klefki but adds another EQ weakness. It can set spikes, though, which is cool. Or Screens for something like DDGyarados. I don't really know how well Thundurus would partner up with Dragalge, they seem like they'd belong on different team styles - and EdgeQuake mauls both of them.

Aaaaaand that's where my patchy meta knowledge dries up completely. It's a shame Sticky Web isn't more useful - a lot of Dragalge's switch-ins (or at least the EQ users and Steel types) are grounded.

 

[FatBagel]

Quick related question; what are the viable paralysis spreaders in OU, besides Togekiss and Jirachi? (Which are really more about parahax than paralysis anyway). I know Rotom-W can run Thunder Wave, but I love Will-O-Wisp on the lil' washing machine and the two conflict. On the other hand, it's immune to Earthquake and resists Ice, and provides a slow Volt Switch for Dragalge. Plus 4x Grass resistance <3 2x Grass weakness etc etc. But then "Hey DAE think Rotom-W has good synergy with everything" isn't really news.
Prankster TW from Thundurus and Klefki I guess; pseudo fairy-steel-dragon core with Klefki but adds another EQ weakness. It can set spikes, though, which is cool. Or Screens for something like DDGyarados. I don't really know how well Thundurus would partner up with Dragalge, they seem like they'd belong on different team styles - and EdgeQuake mauls both of them.

Aaaaaand that's where my patchy meta knowledge dries up completely. It's a shame Sticky Web isn't more useful - a lot of Dragalge's switch-ins (or at least the EQ users and Steel types) are grounded.

Klefki, Thundurus, Latias are very good TWave users, as is an unusual Dnite set that I loved.

Dragonite Leftovers
252 HP, 252 SDef, 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Heal Bell/Extremespeed/Fire Punch

I haven't used it in a while, but I found this set really good when I used it. Thunder Wave anything that comes in, then switch out or Dragon Tail something out. Rocks and Spikes come in handy. Roost gives longevity and then the 4th slot is up to you. Heal Bell can help cure your team of status, Espeed can make it an ok revenge killer and Fire Punch can hit steels.

Generally Thundurus is very good, though.

 

[D_what]

Klefki, Thundurus, Latias are very good TWave users, as is an unusual Dnite set that I loved.

Dragonite Leftovers
252 HP, 252 SDef, 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Heal Bell/Extremespeed/Fire Punch

Aaaaaah I remember that set! I used it for a while back during... gosh it was a long time ago, but it must have been gen 5 because of Dragon Tail not existing in gen 4. Parashuffle Dragonite, fun times! I don't think it's gonna come in too useful here, though - Dragalge and Sp.Def Dragonite aren't going to be taking down each other's counters like Birdspam/Bunnyspam/Waterspam/DoubleDragon(combobreaker?) do - well, except for Dragalge nuking Fairies. But otherwise I can't see Dragonite's team slot getting it's money's worth. Maybe I'm wrong?

I guess what I'd really like to get from this thread is not simply good partners for Dragalge. Because with that typing, there's gonna be loads of them. But which kind of team supports to prioritise, I suppose. You want to make the use of 'galge's nuking capabilities, so you need Pokemon to take advantage of that, definitely. (Such as ____ etc etc). And since it lacks recovery and speed as we've already WELL established, you want to be able to get it in safely or provide switch-in opportunities. (______ etc etc etc etc) And finally, against some teams it's gonna be deadweight, so that has to be mitigated. After that, I'm thinking everything else is a bonus because realistically most people won't build a team around Dragalge. Hmmmm... on switch-in opportunities, maybe there are some decent Encore users who partner well with it? (The only ones I can think of are MLop, Whimsicott, and... Shuckle :O )

Edit: Actually, having thought about it... despite leaving you open to powerful Ice moves and being total Steel Bait, Whimsicott might not be so bad. After you nuke - whether successfully or not - the most likely switch-ins are some sort of setup mons taking advantage of the switch, faster Dragon or Ground types who'll KO (because they're common), or Greninja I guess. Whimsicott can switch safely into Dragon or Ground moves and ease your future setup/switches, and neuter most forms of opponent setup (whether it's offensive or defensive). Can't do much versus Greninja, though, besides priority Lagging Tail Switcheroo/Stun Spore. Which still isn't a terrible idea. AND it has a slow U-Turn!

 

[Jaguar360]

Scizor looks like a nice partner on paper with resistaces to Ice, Dragon and Psychic, a slow U-turn, Defog support and the ability to take on Chansey fairly easily. Dragalge also has a nice Fire resistance for it and burn does not cripple it as much as it does other Pokemon.

Sylveon also looks nice since it can pass Wishes or Calm Minds to Dragalge and shares no common weaknesses to it while having an immunity to Dragon. Dragalge provides a Poison resistance as well.

 

[Seth Vilo]

Scizor looks like a nice partner on paper with resistaces to Ice, Dragon and Psychic, a slow U-turn, Defog support and the ability to take on Chansey fairly easily. Dragalge also has a nice Fire resistance for it and burn does not cripple it as much as it does other Pokemon.

Sylveon also looks nice since it can pass Wishes or Calm Minds to Dragalge and shares no common weaknesses to it while having an immunity to Dragon. Dragalge provides a Poison resistance as well.

Haven't tried it out yet completely, but I totally agree with this in my recent theorymoning. Also, unlike most Volt Switchers, Scizor can really use the slow U-turn to the best effect, as the things that come in on Scizor to absorb the Bullet or U-turn are typically things that Drag may actually not mind facing, like Fire-, Electric-, and Water- types. Even Fairies may come in if they predict spammed U-turns. Bullet Punch also helps clean up the mess Dragalge leaves, and provides some safety against Mamoswine, Kyurem-B, and Weavile. Volt Switchers often lure in Dragons and Grounds, which are not things Dragalge wants to switch into unless it outspeeds them somehow (TR or paralysis).

As for Sylveon, I personally like it for dry-passing Wishes to Drag. May not technically be a "dry pass" cause of the Wish in the air, but as far as stat boosts go, usually Drag is going to want to nuke something and gtfo, making the Calm Minds in a sense wasted on one thing you probably would KO anyway. Sylveon is slow too, so it's another safe way to get Drag on the battlefield to murder things.

Man I love this seahorse.

 

[D_what]

Man I love this seahorse.

It loves you too, brah.

Best way to handle the steel types that will love to switch in on Dragalge and it's fairy friends? There's always Magnezone, but that's another EQ weakness and it can't do much to Excadrill or some Scizor, and a few others. Scald and it's coverage moves help but they're not enough.

Focus Blast or HP Fire? I'm very very much on the side of HP Fire here. Same damage as Focus Blast to Ferrothorn, Skarmory and Jirachi, unbelievably better against Scizor, you do lose out on a 2HKO against (for argument's sake) AV Excadrill (miss a OHKO on other sets) but Scald will take it instead with a bit of prior damage or Burn. Mega Metagross is going to maul you no matter what you do, both moves are a 2HKO with Scald hitting for ~35 to ~43 (but can high roll ~50 if you hit the base form on the switch). Obviously you miss out on hitting Heatran. But again, Scald hits the Sp.Def set for 43.6 - 51.4%. MTyranitar would be a problem if it didn't take 46.3 - 54.5% in the base form on switching into Scald. Jeez. What DOESN'T scald do?? But all of this is really highlighting one of Dragalge's biggest flaws - each time you use Scald or HP Fire or whatever, you're missing out on that Nuke chance. And it doesn't get a lot of opportunities to do it. ((Which is why removing steels is kind of important! :O ))

TL;DR Focus miss > HP fire

I dunno man! The two have really similar overall damage outputs! :D (Though I will say if you are foregoing Scald for any reason, go FB.) Thoughts?

 

[NinetyNineNo]

I gotta ask: why is it so powerful? I mean, I've been reading the calcs in this thread, and they seem somewhat disproportionate to its meager 97 special attack. Is Adaptability just that good (and if so, why don't we see more P-Z)? Or is it just in its Specs Draco Meteor wallbreaker niche?

 

[Kurona]

I gotta ask: why is it so powerful? I mean, I've been reading the calcs in this thread, and they seem somewhat disproportionate to its meager 97 special attack. Is Adaptability just that good (and if so, why don't we see more P-Z)? Or is it just in its Specs Draco Meteor wallbreaker niche?

For the simple fact of the matter that Dragon and Poison STAB with Adaptability is so fucking amazing in this meta, especially compared to Normal.

 

[pika pal]

I gotta ask: why is it so powerful? I mean, I've been reading the calcs in this thread, and they seem somewhat disproportionate to its meager 97 special attack. Is Adaptability just that good (and if so, why don't we see more P-Z)? Or is it just in its Specs Draco Meteor wallbreaker niche?

Adaptability does indeed make a big difference. The main reason it's viable compared to Porygon-Z is because of what its STABs are: Dragon and Poison give it extremely good coverage, and hit harder than P-Z's Tri Attack in terms of Base Power. They're also easier to spam, since the only problematic mons tend to be Steels, whereas Porygon-Z has the issues of Rock, Steel, and Ghosts.

On top of that, Drag has other moves with decent power/Spammability even without Adaptability. Porygon-Z's Ice Beam or Coverage moves, while decent off it's stats, are not the hardest to switch into neutrally for Ghosts or Steels. For Drag, Focus Blast hits almost every Steel Type hard enough to make up for non-STAB, and Scald doesn't need much explanation.

And I think the last thing to note is that Drag, while not exactly bulky, has Typing and defenses that can stomach a hit or 2 if it needs to, whereas Z needs to watch for its switch ins.

Essentially, Porygon-Z has more power, but considering that extra power is often overkill, it doesn't compensate for Drag's bulk, better coverage, and more spammable movepool.

 

[Jaroda]

The HP Fire/Focus Blast debate comes down essentially to your team mates. Also, for reasons stated prior, I would only recommend running one of these moves on a Specs set, or only HP Fire on a Plate set, as they simply aren't as useful otherwise.