I don't think it will only be AV Goodra that will find space on Rain teams, as some run HydraRest. I do (somewhat) see the appeal of a mixed wallbreaking Rain Dragonite, so I'll put it in when I can.
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Dragonite
- Thread starter Punchshroom
- Start date
Pardon me asking alexwolf, but what does Aqua Tail actually hit? Superpower strikes Chansey and Tyranitar harder; it won't hit Hippowdon hard enough; Excadrill and Heatran are threatened enough by Superpower (or Earthquake), not that Heatran is much of a threat to Rain teams, etc...
The only foes I can think of that Rain-boosted Aqua Tail will notable outdamage than the other suggested moves would be specially defensive Sylveon and Clefable, but if they are physically defensive then Hurricane is better against them. Ground-types are hurt much more by special Water attacks (Surf) or just Hurricane in general, and Fire-types include Volcarona (Hurricane), YZard (Thunder is less accurate but still strong, while Aqua Tail's power is neutered by Drought), Talonflame (Thunder), Heatran (Superpower / EQ), and XZard (Dragon moves, which also hit Goodra).
I'm sorry, but if there is a special wall that would tank Dragonite's Hurricane and Thunder, or if the target is weak to Water, I'm not sure if Aqua Tail is the best solution.
The only foes I can think of that Rain-boosted Aqua Tail will notable outdamage than the other suggested moves would be specially defensive Sylveon and Clefable, but if they are physically defensive then Hurricane is better against them. Ground-types are hurt much more by special Water attacks (Surf) or just Hurricane in general, and Fire-types include Volcarona (Hurricane), YZard (Thunder is less accurate but still strong, while Aqua Tail's power is neutered by Drought), Talonflame (Thunder), Heatran (Superpower / EQ), and XZard (Dragon moves, which also hit Goodra).
I'm sorry, but if there is a special wall that would tank Dragonite's Hurricane and Thunder, or if the target is weak to Water, I'm not sure if Aqua Tail is the best solution.
Yeah bad was there for SpD Jirachi in 5th gen, but it's not good anymore, so that's my bad. Hurricane / Thunder / Superpower / (ExtremeSpeed/ Roost) is your best bet for an offensive mixed set, and maybe Surf over Superpower for a more tanking approach with Roost on the last slot.
Well I already made my take on the Rain Stallbreaker set if you look at the OP again. Right now, I feel pretty safe not running any Attack EVs if the EVs are needed elsewhere, but how much Speed should Dragonite run?
I think that outrunning min Speed Rotom-W is a good benchmark, though outrunning min Speed Excadrill could be good as well. +SpA Dragonite has enough power to 2HKO most Rotom-W sets after SR, so outspeeding it is very beneficial:
- 252+ SpA Life Orb Dragonite Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Also, Rash Superpower always OHKOes 4 HP Excarill:
- 0 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 364-429 (100.5 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So outspeeding it seems good as well.
Use this EV spread: (188 HP / 188 Atk) / 252 SpA / 68 Spe with Rash / Mild. Use the 188 EVs in HP if you go with Roost as the first slash on the last slot, or in Atk if you go with Extremspeed first.
I thought that is an EQ calc?
0 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 364-429 (100.5 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 437-515 (120.7 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Any Excadrill that runs 0 Spe would be running HP EVs, and is likely an Assault Vest variant. Outspeeding it is nice though since:
0 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 437-515 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
LO Superpower still wrecks Exca's shit. I'm just concerned that Dragonite cannot outspeed Rotom-W, as even the bulkiest ones run 44 Speed to outrun 0 Spe U-Turn Landorus-T. Should Dragonite try to catch up to Lando-T as well?
On the Rain Wallbreaker set, can you mention Pokemon that appreciate Dragonite's wallbreaking? You mentioned Pokemon that help with synergy which is fine but wallbreakers are meant to help setup a sweep for another teammate. Add in Pokemon that appreciate having Skarmory, Heatran, etc. gone to facilitate their jobs and sweeps. Mega Mawile, Azumarill, Genesect and Scizor are all good examples of such teammates.
Move Dragon Claw to Moves, or even remove it completely. It doesn't deal with the Pokemon that wall your first two moves (other than Goodra), and you don't really need a reliable move outside of rain, as this set is meant to be played in rain. If the situation really calls for it, 70% accuracy is fine anyway.
Also, i would slash Extremespeed before Roost, as its a great tool to finish off faster foes that try to switch into you, and a great revenge killing tool too. Roost is always nice, but strong priority that bypasses opposing priority and nabs many 2HKOes on faster foes when combined with one of the other moves is invaluable.
Finally, why enough Speed to outrun Breloom? It would never want to switch into you, or face you in a 1 v 1 scenario anyway. I think we agreed that you should just aim to outspeed min Speed Landorus-T. (outspeeding 16 Spe Tentacruel is speed creep).
Also, i would slash Extremespeed before Roost, as its a great tool to finish off faster foes that try to switch into you, and a great revenge killing tool too. Roost is always nice, but strong priority that bypasses opposing priority and nabs many 2HKOes on faster foes when combined with one of the other moves is invaluable.
Finally, why enough Speed to outrun Breloom? It would never want to switch into you, or face you in a 1 v 1 scenario anyway. I think we agreed that you should just aim to outspeed min Speed Landorus-T. (outspeeding 16 Spe Tentacruel is speed creep).
Subject 18 alexwolf Made the changes.
I also wanted to outspeed Breloom since I wanted Dragonite to handle more Rain threats (and I ripped it from the old analysis), but it doesn't even outspeed Jolly Breloom so yeah. After I moved the Speed EVs to Attack i felt more comfortable with slashing ESpeed before Roost, so thanks for catching that.
I also wanted to outspeed Breloom since I wanted Dragonite to handle more Rain threats (and I ripped it from the old analysis), but it doesn't even outspeed Jolly Breloom so yeah. After I moved the Speed EVs to Attack i felt more comfortable with slashing ESpeed before Roost, so thanks for catching that.
Dragonite With Leftovers/Weakness Policy
Multiscale and Timid
EVs: 252 HP and Sp.Atk
Moveset
~Thunder
~Hurricane
~Roost
~Dragon Dance
*For Drizzle Team :)
Dragonite could be used for Rain Team because It has access to Thunder and Hurricane which never misses in rain.
Dragon Dance is there to increase Speed.
Roost is optional ,but I run it just because i want Dragonite to stay at Multiscale with threats of Ice moves.
Multiscale and Timid
EVs: 252 HP and Sp.Atk
Moveset
~Thunder
~Hurricane
~Roost
~Dragon Dance
*For Drizzle Team :)
Dragonite could be used for Rain Team because It has access to Thunder and Hurricane which never misses in rain.
Dragon Dance is there to increase Speed.
Roost is optional ,but I run it just because i want Dragonite to stay at Multiscale with threats of Ice moves.
I think a Specially Defensive pivot set using Dragon Tail and Roost deserves a mention in OO. It's a great switch-in to Aegislash and a variety of other Special threats, but tends to be annoyed by status and Stealth Rock, so it should be run with opponents that can use Defog and Heal Bell. The set's potential is also stifled by the fact that Dragonite cannot learn Defog himself, as the move is illegal with Multiscale.
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Hmmm, the threats Dragonite would like to switch into tend to be handled a lot better by Latias (except Volcarona), since Latias isn't instantly ended by Ice attacks, not to mention it does Defog way better and has Roar over Dragon Tail. Heal Bell would be bulky Nite's biggest niche over Latias in this case.
Dragonite also has a much stronger Earthquake that can 2HKO Tyranitar and OHKO Heatran with the appropriate EVs, and isn't weak to Pursuit or Aegislash's Shadow Ball.
The fact that two of Dragonite's best defensive moves (Defog and Heal Bell) are incompatible with Multiscale means that the set probably doesn't deserve an analysis, but it is good enough for an OO mention, in my opinion.
The fact that two of Dragonite's best defensive moves (Defog and Heal Bell) are incompatible with Multiscale means that the set probably doesn't deserve an analysis, but it is good enough for an OO mention, in my opinion.
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Frankly I wouldn't bother with a Dragonite without Multiscale, but made the mention regardless.
Oh no, I don't think you understood me. I intended to say that a set using Multiscale and without either of those two moves is viable. This is personally what I've used to reasonable success:
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Atk / 196 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Roost
64 Attack EVs nabs the kill on max HP Heatran and gives Dragonite a good shot at 2HKOing Leftovers-less Tyranitar. The rest goes in Special Defense to help it sponge Aegislash's Shadow Ball and other Special Attacks. The set is quite customizable; I've tried Substitute over Extreme Speed along with some Speed EVs to guard against status; particularly burns from Rotom-Wash. Fire Blast also works over either Extreme Speed or Earthquake, if Ferrothorn and Skarmory are particularly bothersome for the team.
Inner Focus Dragonite sucks and shouldn't even be mentioned.
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Atk / 196 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Roost
64 Attack EVs nabs the kill on max HP Heatran and gives Dragonite a good shot at 2HKOing Leftovers-less Tyranitar. The rest goes in Special Defense to help it sponge Aegislash's Shadow Ball and other Special Attacks. The set is quite customizable; I've tried Substitute over Extreme Speed along with some Speed EVs to guard against status; particularly burns from Rotom-Wash. Fire Blast also works over either Extreme Speed or Earthquake, if Ferrothorn and Skarmory are particularly bothersome for the team.
Inner Focus Dragonite sucks and shouldn't even be mentioned.
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That was highly misleading, but I think I got the gist of what you want: Dragon Tail + Roost right? Thing is, the parashuffler set already does that and can TWave stuff, so I'm not sure if I should even mention that separately.
Ah you're right, I made this with a drafted defensive DD Nite but never went through with it.
I'm not even sure ParaShuffler deserves a mention. It seems awful in this meta, as Defog exists to remove Spikes, and without those littering the field, he becomes helpless against a handful of threats. Earthquake is important if he doesn't want to be fodder for Tyranitar and Heatran, and it also gives him a means of checking Mixed Aegislash.
One could easily slot Earthquake over Sub on parashuffler Nite, since only Dragon Tail, Thunder Wave, and Roost are staples. Really the only major difference between the two sets is T-Wave and Extreme Speed, both of which bypass Speed, but Extreme Speed doesn't seem as great without much Attack investment.
You should not underestimate the usefulness of +2 80 Base Power priority when it comes to picking off sweepers. Thunder Wave is decidedly mediocre against most things that switch into Dragonite, and does not have great synergy with Dragon Tail. I would probably sooner choose Toxic as a status, to punish Rotom-Wash for switching in.
We can both agree Dragon Tail + Roost to be necessary on this bulky Nite we keep talking about. Should I just put that in, and do I have to list every move it could use (Toxic, T-Wave, EQ, ESpeed...)?
That should be fine.