Dray says: what about your great grandchicken

[Judicator]

I hadn't played Pokémon for quite some time, seeing as the Platinum metagame was just full of Heatran/Scizor/Zapdos/Rotom/filler/filler teams. I'd been attempting to get back into it often but could not think of any inspiration for a team, as my old team used Skymin and Deoxys-S, and as you all know, both are uber now. After much deliberation, here's what I came up with:

Opium (Breloom) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 28 HP/252 Atk/228 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Sky Uppercut
- Seed Bomb
- Stone Edge
- Spore

I was tired of spending hours thinking of a new anti-lead as I do with every team, so I just thought "let's get a Breloom and put a Choice Scarf on it to have a fast sleeper that has 100% accuracy". It works. The spread gives enough Speed to outrun base 125s and anything slower. This works not only as a good sleeper lead, but also midgame and lategame as a revenge killer/sleeper, since even without a boosting nature, 130 Attack hurts a lot of things with the coverage that Breloom has.

Voyager II (Starmie) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Trick

If you asked me why I put Starmie in, I would have to say that I honestly can't remember. You probably have a good idea of what it does - hurts pretty much everything without a good SDef stat or cripples those that might get in the way. Natural Cure is nice and handy as well.

Light and Space (Rotom-w) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/56 Spd/200 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Will-o-wisp
- Trick
- Protect

This has got to be my favourite Rotom set, devised when I was thinking of a Rotom mindgame. "Why is it that Rotom-appliance always uses its signature move? Instead, I can change the sprite accordingly so that the opponent THINKS I use a certain move..." All that went out the window on this team and is totally irrelevant, but the set still works well. As is probably evident, it's designed to cripple the opponent in multiple ways. Protect is such a valuable move for Rotom - after losing its Scarf, it can add to Leftovers recovery, scout the newly-Choiced opponent before switching to something that can set up and also helps to combat Pursuit users.

Consume to Live (Salamence) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 120 HP/252 Atk/136 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

In my opinion, Roost needs to be used more often on DDMence. The loss of an extra move's worth of type coverage is totally outweighed by the ability to get in more boosts and sweep with the moves you do have. I'm thinking that more Speed would be useful here, as I'm often being outsped by random Scarfed Pokémon.

Pressure (Forretress) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 244 HP/48 Atk/216 Def
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Gyro Ball
- Revenge
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock

No matter how well a team fares against entry hazards, I always feel the need to have Rapid Spin somewhere. Forretress is partly an excuse to have a Steel in the team, but it also combats quite a few threats such as the obvious Weavile, but thanks to Revenge, it stands its ground against things like Lucario and Tyranitar.

Narcissus (Snorlax) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 204 HP/52 Def/252 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Return
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

As soon as the Ghosts are gone, Snorlax sets up a clean sweep. Before this opportunity, it is also useful for eating up pretty much any special attack besides Focus Blast. I am strongly leaning towards losing the Normal STAB and using Crunch because of the amount of Ghosts that are able to come in on me, most notably Gengar, who I seem to have a lot of trouble with.



The main threats that I often have trouble with are Gengar, Ghosts in general and also Celebi. Requesting help with these in particular, but of course with the team in general as well.



CHANGES:



Opium (Breloom) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 28 HP/252 Atk/228 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Superpower
- Seed Bomb
- Stone Edge
- Spore



Voyager II (Starmie) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Trick



Light and Space (Rotom-w) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/56 Spd/200 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Will-o-wisp
- Trick
- Protect



Consume to Live (Salamence) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Roost



Pressure (Forretress) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 244 HP/48 Atk/216 Def
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Gyro Ball
- Revenge Decision to use Earthquake or not pending
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock



Narcissus (Snorlax) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 204 HP/52 Def/252 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Return
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

 

[paramylodon]

I remember playing someone with a scarfed breloom.
I don't remember exactly, but I think I lost that game (partly due to the surprise of how fast the breloom was).
Can't complain about the move set in that case...
Not sure if it was you though, I only remember the uniqueness of a breloom with scarf.

If you max speed you would also be guaranteed to outrun adamant gyarados after a DD (and as a note skymin as well).
To bad even with max speed and a jolly nature it still fails to match the speed of base 130s.

Starmie should really be timid in my opinion (or do you have damage calculations demonstrating important 2HKOs->1HKOs or 3HKOs->2HKOs).
Timid outspeeds a lot that you wouldn't be able to outspeed with modest, including, but not limited to, non-scarf gengar, infernape, and adamant dugtrio.

I always take a good look at the overused speed tiers when making decisions about speed investments.

I wouldn't recommend crunch over return (perhaps body slam?) on snorlax; that would drastically cut down on snorlax's sweeping potential.
I'd much rather add something that can counter (or attract) ghosts and hide snorlax.
Haven't really had much experience using many of these pokemon so I can't really try to give much advice other then that.
That would also help forretress out.
Pursuit helps not only against ghosts, but also celebi.

I see why you said gengar when looking at your team; the timid nature on starmie would allow it to revenge kill gengar (I wouldn't recomend switching in on a shadow ball, of course).
A surf with specs and 252 sp attack still does, while timid:
Damage: 95.04% - 111.83%
Against a 6/0 gengar; guranteed OHKO with stealth rock.
Scarfgars should obviously be avoided, unless they're stuck on something other then t-bolt/shadow ball, but in that case you'd have an easier time playing around it.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

If Ghosts worry you most (hey, that rhymes!) CBtar with Pursuit is probably best, catching them if they try to switch out and ridding them of the ability to bother you again. Scizor may use the opportunity to stat up, but your Rotom can easily deal with it. (you may, of course, want to add more defence evs if it becomes a problem).

You may want to consider Superpower on Breloom over Sky Uppercut since you will be switching a lot anyway, the power difference is staggering and Breloom really can't afford to miss.

By increasing Salamence's speed to make it a more effective sweeper, you forfeit valuable evs that bulk it up, making Roost an even less effective move than it is now. You should make sure you know exactly what you want from Salamence before making a decision.

Earthquake may be more useful on Forretress than Revenge since it still hits Luke and 'Tar but most importantly hits Magnezone for much more damage. It's your choice, but I don't know how popular Magnet Rise is at the moment.

Snorlax doesn't look like he can get through Rotom and Gengar easily, that's why I'd recommend T-Tar as a replacement. Snorlax also looks like a bit of an easy set-up for Scizor (well, perhaps 'easy' isn't the right word...)

And, not that it really matters, but here's a Rotom-w if you want to use its sprite...

 

[Orion]

Looks like a cool team, but let's have a look!

I'm generally very sceptical to Scarfed Sleepers. While being annoying, it will in most cases be very obvious to the opponent that you are scarfed, meaning they will stay in and wait for the Sleep to end, while you have to switch out. Breloom is a seriously annoying Pokémon, but this Scarfed one is extremely easy to play around.
Most leads today are slow Stealth Rockers, meaning if you use a common SubPunch or SubSeed-Breloom, you will be faster than their lead most of the time. Of course, you'll fall to any Taunting lead or to faster Pokés with super effective moves, so if that idea is not particulary tempting, I say drop Breloom altogether, especially as a lead.

Starmie is cool, SpecsMie is quite underrated and hits seriously hard. You can opt for Hydro Pump over Surf, as that gives an extra kick. Surf cannot OHKO Tyranitar either, something Hydro Pump does 100% with Stealth Rock damage.

I like your Rotom. I haven't seen Protect on anyone yet, but it's a very useful move, scouting wether Tyranitar will Pursuit or Crunch. Just know that if you Trick an incoming Tyranitar, you will have to switch out, allowing him to happily OHKO you.

On Salamence, use Lum Berry. With Roost, you already get HP back, and it's much more useful for Salamence to dodge statusmoves, who would otherwise cripple him. As for the Speed, the most common Salamence these days are 252/252 in Attack and Speed. You can run a Jolly nature, which even outspeeds Modest Choice Scarf Gengar, at the cost of some power, but then you also outspeed Jolly Lucarios and Timid 176 Speed Zapdoses that think they are cool. Jolly Nature on Salamence often outspeeds the opponent by surprise, nesting you some easy kills. With Lum Berry, consider Outrage over Dragon Claw. With 50% more power, Salamence suddenly becomes 50% more deadly, but also 50% easier to counter (requires that their Steels are intact, of course). Outrage after a boost is deadly!

I'm a bit sceptical to Revenge on Forretress. In theory, it sounds good, hitting Tyranitar and Lucario with a 120 Base Power move. But the fact is, against a 0 Def/252 HP Tyranitar, you hit for a maximum of 90% damage.
If Tyranitar carries Choice Band, Stone Edge will 2HKO your Forretress most of the time, meaning you can't safely switch in and kill Tyranitar, he'll kill you first. Earthquake is a much more reliable move, which also nails any Heatran switchin in on you.

Now, to support your Snorlax, you should get in a Pursuiter. Snorlax is a wonderful Pokémon that will live in eternity, but is walled up and down all day long by Ghosts and Steels.

It seems that as soon as Rotom has fallen, this team has issues with setup, Scizor in particular. Also, if Forretress is down or weakened, Gengar is a bitch.
Heatran can solve this problem. Scizor is utterly raped, while Gengar cannot OHKO if you invest some HP EVs, and you OHKO back. If you give it a Scarf as well, you kill Gengar even before he attempts to kill you.
So, if you add a Scarfed Heatran over Breloom, and use Starmie as your lead, I think that will do it. A friend of mine used a Trick-SpecsMie as a lead once and said it was utterly brilliant, and when you think about it, it actually is! ;)

Good luck with your team!

 

[Judicator]

If you max speed you would also be guaranteed to outrun adamant gyarados after a DD (and as a note skymin as well).
To bad even with max speed and a jolly nature it still fails to match the speed of base 130s.

I probably should have looked into numbers other than base stats as well to decide about Breloom's Speed, but I'm not that worried about Gyarados considering Rotom kills it off without much trouble.

Starmie should really be timid in my opinion (or do you have damage calculations demonstrating important 2HKOs->1HKOs or 3HKOs->2HKOs).

I don't. I'll look into this.

Timid outspeeds a lot that you wouldn't be able to outspeed with modest, including, but not limited to, non-scarf gengar, infernape, and adamant dugtrio.

I always take a good look at the overused speed tiers when making decisions about speed investments.

I don't think I've seen that link before, actually. I'll use that as well.

I see why you said gengar when looking at your team; the timid nature on starmie would allow it to revenge kill gengar (I wouldn't recomend switching in on a shadow ball, of course).
A surf with specs and 252 sp attack still does, while timid:
Damage: 95.04% - 111.83%
Against a 6/0 gengar; guranteed OHKO with stealth rock.
Scarfgars should obviously be avoided, unless they're stuck on something other then t-bolt/shadow ball, but in that case you'd have an easier time playing around it.

Alright then, making Starmie Timid.

If Ghosts worry you most (hey, that rhymes!) CBtar with Pursuit is probably best, catching them if they try to switch out and ridding them of the ability to bother you again. Scizor may use the opportunity to stat up, but your Rotom can easily deal with it. (you may, of course, want to add more defence evs if it becomes a problem).

I don't like the sandstorm that comes with using Tyranitar, so I won't do that.

You may want to consider Superpower on Breloom over Sky Uppercut since you will be switching a lot anyway, the power difference is staggering and Breloom really can't afford to miss.

As always, I totally forgot Superpower existed. Very well, I'll change.

By increasing Salamence's speed to make it a more effective sweeper, you forfeit valuable evs that bulk it up, making Roost an even less effective move than it is now. You should make sure you know exactly what you want from Salamence before making a decision.

After reading that, I think I might just add more bulk. I already have things that hit hard and fast (well mostly fast).

Earthquake may be more useful on Forretress than Revenge since it still hits Luke and 'Tar but most importantly hits Magnezone for much more damage. It's your choice, but I don't know how popular Magnet Rise is at the moment.

Good point, but I think I prefer Revenge for the (normally) extra power and surprise factor. It also covers other things - I've totally forgotten what though, I just like the move.

Snorlax doesn't look like he can get through Rotom and Gengar easily, that's why I'd recommend T-Tar as a replacement. Snorlax also looks like a bit of an easy set-up for Scizor (well, perhaps 'easy' isn't the right word...)

By adding the other adjustments, I think I'll do better at getting around that without a Tyranitar. Besides, Scizor does nothing to Rotom.

And, not that it really matters, but here's a Rotom-w if you want to use its sprite...

I'm generally very sceptical to Scarfed Sleepers.

I'm not. Sorry if that sounded a bit arrogant.

Starmie is cool, SpecsMie is quite underrated and hits seriously hard. You can opt for Hydro Pump over Surf, as that gives an extra kick. Surf cannot OHKO Tyranitar either, something Hydro Pump does 100% with Stealth Rock damage.

I considered that, but went with Surf instead as I thought Modest 252 Specs Pumps would be overkill, but once I switch to Timid, I'll put it on instead as I feel I might need it. However, I'm probably overestimating the loss in power of a neutral nature.

I like your Rotom. I haven't seen Protect on anyone yet, but it's a very useful move, scouting wether Tyranitar will Pursuit or Crunch. Just know that if you Trick an incoming Tyranitar, you will have to switch out, allowing him to happily OHKO you.

I recently realised that, since the last time I played, you could switch moves after you used Trick and got another Choice item.

On Salamence, use Lum Berry. With Roost, you already get HP back, and it's much more useful for Salamence to dodge statusmoves, who would otherwise cripple him. As for the Speed, the most common Salamence these days are 252/252 in Attack and Speed. You can run a Jolly nature, which even outspeeds Modest Choice Scarf Gengar, at the cost of some power, but then you also outspeed Jolly Lucarios and Timid 176 Speed Zapdoses that think they are cool. Jolly Nature on Salamence often outspeeds the opponent by surprise, nesting you some easy kills. With Lum Berry, consider Outrage over Dragon Claw. With 50% more power, Salamence suddenly becomes 50% more deadly, but also 50% easier to counter (requires that their Steels are intact, of course). Outrage after a boost is deadly!

I just said I'm going to add more bulk, but I might put on Lum Berry.

I'm a bit sceptical to Revenge on Forretress. In theory, it sounds good, hitting Tyranitar and Lucario with a 120 Base Power move. But the fact is, against a 0 Def/252 HP Tyranitar, you hit for a maximum of 90% damage.
If Tyranitar carries Choice Band, Stone Edge will 2HKO your Forretress most of the time, meaning you can't safely switch in and kill Tyranitar, he'll kill you first. Earthquake is a much more reliable move, which also nails any Heatran switchin in on you.

With statistics, I feel more persuaded to switch to Earthquake, but I'm still uncertain.

Now, to support your Snorlax, you should get in a Pursuiter. Snorlax is a wonderful Pokémon that will live in eternity, but is walled up and down all day long by Ghosts and Steels.

Logically, that sounds like a good idea, but my prediction skills have taken a massive beating and I never know which Pursuiters are actually useful and fit into the team, not to mention that I very rarely use them.

It seems that as soon as Rotom has fallen, this team has issues with setup, Scizor in particular. Also, if Forretress is down or weakened, Gengar is a bitch.

I never have Scizor problems. They either come in early-game and are somehow ALWAYS crippled by Rotom (for some reason, nobody has had the intelligence to get it back out), or just get gradually worn by other things. Gengar is definitely a problem area and Forretress/Breloom are my only ways to beat it before I've edited in the changes I'm going to make.

Heatran can solve this problem. Scizor is utterly raped, while Gengar cannot OHKO if you invest some HP EVs, and you OHKO back. If you give it a Scarf as well, you kill Gengar even before he attempts to kill you.
So, if you add a Scarfed Heatran over Breloom, and use Starmie as your lead, I think that will do it. A friend of mine used a Trick-SpecsMie as a lead once and said it was utterly brilliant, and when you think about it, it actually is! ;)

Sorry, I just can't stand the thought of resorting to the top sweepers of Platinum and I do quite like the Breloom. However, if the changes I've already decided to make don't work, I will add in the Heatran. It just seems a little redundant to do it after doing everything else.



Thank you all for the suggestions, whether I took notice of them or not. Sorry, I just came back to the thread and saw a wall of text to answer.

 

[darkrai lucario]

Ha ha I like all of the mythology names.


For breloom, if you want a fast sleep-inducer, try SleepBat. The crobat variation is the fastest sleeper in the game with hypnosis, and the small drop in accuracy isnt a lot to suffer. The breloom would work just, fine, though, but if you would ever want to be able to change your move usage, then crobat would be your first choice.

For starmie, CS and surf is a good idea...kills most of the pokes that dont resist it. With choice sets, there isnt a lot you can do, so this seems like a basic, but good, set to run.

Youre a pretty big fan of choice items, arent you? If the aim of the Rotom set is to trick a scarf on to the other poke, alakazam does it 10000 times better. But if you are going to do it, you might want to have hydro pump on the set, anyway. It is such a great move and even though I know youre trying to pull off an element of surprise, its too golden of a move to pass up.

I agree with roost being used more on DDMence. It also sheds its stealth rock weakness, something important. After a few DDs, just MURDER everything with dragon claw. A simple, effective strategy. Roost of damage if needed. You might want to go all out on the speed EVs so it can outspeed any weavile that doesnt have speed EVs. Otherwise, Ice Punch CB weavile kills DDMence easily.

A rapid spinner that can also inflict entry hazards is always a good choice for a team. My only beef is that you should maybe give him Iron Ball...hes already so abysmally slow that it wont make a difference. Then you can have more gyro ball power.

For snorlax (one of my favorites), dont ditch return. CurseLax is so beastly with return, so you shouldnt pass it up; 150 Base Power is just too damn good. I would just switch out when a ghost comes, or a rock/steel.

HAPPY BATTLING! :D