Electivire (Mixed Scarfer)

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Kurai

STATUS: First draft complete. I'll need to fiddle around with the EV spread a bit more, and sift through the analysis to find grammatical errors.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/electivire

I wasn't sure whether to put this in the title, but this Electivire is meant to be used for the Suspect Metagame. As you'll see, Salamence completely destroys this set, and this set spurred into my head assuming Salamence would be banished to Uber. If Salamence stays OU, this thread can be removed, or if this need be moved, I will ask a moderator to do so.

Basically, while most people don't put choice items on Electivire, it becomes a potent threat when used as a revenge killer. Without going into too much detail, it's a huge surprise, and can KO a lot of big OU threats. The lack of move-changing hurts, but your opponent will usually lose one Pokemon thinking it's either a normal mixed attacker or a pure physical version.

This is also my first time working with HTML coding, so please correct any errors I may have. I've been lurking on these forums, but I still haven't grasped coding.
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[SET]
name: Mixed ScarfVire
move1: Thunderbolt
move2: Flamethrower
move3: Ice Punch / Hidden Power Ice
move4: Earthquake / Cross Chop
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Mild
evs: 176 Atk / 80 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With decent base stats on both sides of the spectrum and a decent base Speed, Electivire with a Scarf can function as an excellent revenge killer. Using its plethora of moves, it can deal with many of OU's top threats, and can surprise your opponent when they fail to outspeed Electivire. While this set may seem outclassed by the standard MixVire, remember that you will not always be switching in on an Electric-type attack. This set eases prediction and allows you to come in for a quick kill.</p>

<p>Because of the diversity of Pokemon in the OU metagame, a mixed set is employed to deal with more threats than a pure physical set would deal with. Thunderbolt, as explained in the previous sets, nets a kill on Gyarados, and also deals significant damage to bulky Waters that only invest in Defense. Flamethrower also gives a decent amount of damage on the many Steel-types in OU, most of which have a lower Special Defense than physical Defense. Ice Punch hits the Dragons, bar Kingdra, in OU. The reason Ice Punch is listed first is because it has a higher Base Power, has a freeze chance, and comes off of a higher base stat. If you want to hit Gliscor and Breloom off of their weaker defense, Hidden Power Ice is still a viable option, and nets relatively the same KOs that Ice Punch gets.</p>

<p>Probably the most important decision of this moveset is the fourth slot. Earthquake hits Heatran, Magnezone, Jolteon, and Tentacruel for super-effective damage, either hitting for 4x damage or off of their weaker defense. Earthquake is not as useful against Metagross, however, as Flamethrower hits it's Special Defense, and comes with an extremely handy Burn chance. Cross Chop is mainly used for Tyranitar, who you can outspeed regardless.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EVs basically overview the types of Pokemon you are going to be going after. Maximum Speed with neutral nature and a Choice Scarf outspeeds Adamant, max Speed Ninjask and slower. This includes non-Scarfed Pokemon faster than Electivire, such as Starmie, Jolteon, Infernape and all of the Base 100s, and also outspeeds +1 Pokemon slower than Electivire. That list includes Scarfed Roserade and slower, which includes +1 Gyarados and +1 Dragonite. (If you can obtain a Motor Drive boost, Electivire would attain 650 Speed!) The rest of the EVs are majorly placed in Attack, since Thunderbolt and Flamethrower can OHKO or 2HKO solely on Electivire's 95 Base SpA and their super-effective coverage on many OU threats.</p>

<p>This Electivire has many problems, however. Because it is running a Scarf (meaning it cannot switch attacks), and has split EVs, it cannot OHKO a lot of walls. Without Cross Chop, Blissey, Snorlax and Tyranitar pose problems. The first two can wall Electivire effectively, while the latter can use Earthquake to KO. Scizor makes a good partner to this Electivire, as it can scare away Blissey and Snorlax (either using Pursuit for damage or Superpower for the KO), and has Bullet Punch to deal with Tyranitar. Swampert is extremely notable, as it takes pitiful damage from Flamethrower and Ice Punch, is immune to Thunderbolt, and doesn't care much about Earthquake. Celebi also makes a good partner, as it can take the many Earthquakes aimed at Electivire, and can deal with both Tyranitar and Swampert.</p>

<p>While not dealing with many of Electivire's counters, Gyarados should be mentioned as a partner. Not only can it take Earthquakes aimed at Electivire and soften physical hits with Intimidate, but you can employ the popular GyaraVire combo, and net Electivire a free Motor Drive boost. While this may seem obvious, Electivire's usage has been dropping, and many people will spam their Electric-type attacks against Gyarados.</p>
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For the most part, I think it is a good idea, and does really well in OU from my WiFi playtesting. The conclusion could've been better, and my English teachers forever nag me on my horrible conclusion-writing skills.

Again, the EVs absolutely need to be reworked. I'm guessing that some EVs should be shifted from Speed to SpA, so Jirachi and Celebi would be 2HKOd with Flamethrower after Stealth Rock. Since they mostly invest in Defense (with Jirachi either not being defensive or using Calm Mind, which screws over Electivire without Earthquake), Flamethrower should be doing a lot of damage.

I think this was a great way to use my first post, and enter into the Smogon community.
 
Great! I like this set a lot. Hopefully you can get some input soon.

I don't have time for a full read through, nor do I feel it is necessary at this point, but one quick thing to note:

Hidden Power Ice, not Hidden Power [Ice]
 
I'll fix that. I've seen both used in different instances, but I guess Smogon doesn't like brackets. <3

Again, the main problem with this set is that Salamence absolutely has to be banned. Intimidate completely screws over Ice Punch, and Salamence is faster. Unless 'Vire uses a +Speed nature with max speed, and Salamence uses Adamant or a neutral Speed nature, there is no chance for a +1 'Vire to outspeed a +1 'Mence. And pretty much every DDMence carries Earthquake. While you could carry a dedicated 'Mence counter, it doesn't help any Pokemon to be countered by one of the top three Pokemon in the metagame.
 
I've actually used a set like that in the past. It was actually one of Smogon's standard sets up to a few months ago. It's really good.
 
Note: I don't use in-forum quote systems. I quote using italics. Hopefully that does not cause confusion.

It was actually one of Smogon's standard sets up to a few months ago.

I honestly cannot believe I never noticed that. I still remember when the physical set was titled "It's super effective!" That always got a good lol out of me.

On that note, should physical be capitalized or not? If you haven't already done so, I'd really love a sort of "Grammar Thread" which identifies what you should(n't) capitalize, how you should phrase things, et cetera. It would help when making threads like these. <3
 
I apologize for the double post, but I've been reading the thread again and haven't found many grammatical errors. I will need help with capitalization, as said in the previous post, because I'm not entirely sure what should and what shouldn't be capitalized.

After some more playtesting, this thing really likes Scizor. But not in a good way for the Scizor user.

A Banded Bullet Punch from a Technician (basically the Choice Band set) Scizor does about 42.6% to 50.5% to our Mild, 0 HP, 0 Electivire. It's obviously because of the resistance, but who cares? Not including Stealth Rock, that gives the yellow thing a pretty decent chance at not being 2HKOd by Bullet Punch. Since SR is usually up, that statement is nullified. However, this thing can switch into Stealth Rock up to three times and never be KOd by a Bullet Punch. Pretty nifty, considering Scizor don't carry Occa Berry and Flamethrower will always KO.

And again, the surprise factor is pretty big. If, for some reason, you are facing an Agility Scizor, you will outspeed it and kill with Flamethrower. And if for some reason Scizor thinks you are a pure physical set (which don't run Fire Punch), it'll be in for a nasty surprise.

This strategy also works on non-Banded Scizor. If you switch in 'Vire on a Swords Dance, Bullet Punch won't KO outside of a crit. So, that's just one more threat that Electivire happily deals with.

One more damage calculation, but this is Flamethrower versus a 252 HP, 0 SpD Celebi with no Special Defense boosts.

Bettern 39% and 46%. While that doesn't seem amazing, it's a solid 3HKO. Ice Punch or Hidden Power Ice wouldn't fare any better, so maybe I should invest more SpA into Electivire.

However, even with 252 EVs, it will NEVER be a confirmed 2HKO. So, I guess Celebi poses problems unless it is severely weakened. D:

I'm assuming Jirachi is in the same vein, but Electivire can easily KO if it's an offensive Jirachi that hasn't Calm Minded yet. And Iron Head, much like Bullet Punch, won't KO. As long as it isn't ScarfRachi (don't know if Iron Head is a 2HKO, but the flinch chance is meh), you can outspeed and 2HKO with Flamethrower.

The Rotom Formes also pose a problem, seeing as they take nothing from Earthquake or Cross Chop, Thunderbolt does nothing, so we are left with Flamethrower and Ice Punch. Gah, those most likely won't 2HKO a 252 HP Rotom. D: This is mostly a revenge killer anyways, so it doesn't need to OHKO or 2HKO everything. It does have a lot of problems, though.
 
I'm not sold on this set at all. It's got speed but iffy attack, and it seems like it's pretty much as outclassed as possible by all the various revenge scarfers that can come in. It doesn't hit hard enough, as its only STAB is working off of its lower stat with a weak investment, and it requires *way* too much prediction to do its job right. Three of its attacks have notable immunities that make them iffy to throw around, and the fourth provides terrible power with no STAB and 75/70 base Power, making it a really bad option to be locked into. Defensively it's also very hard to switch in, not incredibly fast, and fairly easy to switch into. In terms of Electric-types, I'd rather run Specs Jolteon if I was looking for a fast Electric-type, and in terms of scarfers, I'd rather run... well, pretty much anything. This gets a no from me, as even if it does come across as "surprising", it's not all that great once the jig is up.
 
Honestly I don't see how this can be particularly offensively threatening. He doesn't have the power to throw around his STAB most of the time like a lot of Scarfers, so he relies on weaker SE attacks to clean up. This leaves every revenge kill as a set up opportunity. Throw in the difficulty to switch it and I don't see the particular advantage over Jolteon, Zapdos, etc.
 
Please post all new sets / analyses in Quality Control first.

Apologies, I did not realize that. D:

To answer the two posters above, it isn't supposed to be offensively threatening, but moreso to pick off any weakened Pokemon. The moveset gets neutral coverage on anything, it has Speed to outrun all of the unscarfed metagame (and a lot of the +1 metagame), and it KOs a lot of weakened threats solely with super-effective moves. Because of its pretty decent moveset, it gets a lot of 4x attacks on many Pokemon, which nets many free KOs. Gyarados, Heatran, Dragonite and Scizor are just some of the Pokemon KOd through 4x weaknesses, and frail sweepers like nonscarf Jolteon and Lucario die to a super-effective move. (Will run a damage calc on +2 Luke ExtremeSpeed vs Electivire later.)

With switching in, the same thing can be said about other scarfed Pokemon. If you are putting a scarf on something, chances are it is going to come in on an immunity, come in after a kill, or come in on a predicted nve move. If you pair Electivire with any Water-type (I've been using Suicune, since I haven't seen many Pokemon carrying Grass Knot after Latias was banned), you can use the "GyaraVire" combination to switch Electivire in for free. Assuming you know enough of the opponent's team, you can use prediction to choose your move. And if you want to switch it in after a kill, again, it outspeeds a large portion of the metagame, and can deal with many of the threats effectively.

Specs Jolteon doesn't get the coverage that this Electivire gets, and iirc is even frailer and harder to switch in. Zapdos also doesn't get the coverage Electivire gets, albeit it is much easier to switch in. Both of your points are valid, but if you play Electivire as a revenge killer instead of as an offensive threat, it becomes a lot more viable. I've netted a ton of free KOs because my opponent didn't know 'Vire was scarfed, and even when they did know, they couldn't even determine the moveset. Maybe those guys were just idiots, or maybe the surprise value is a big factor of this set.

I agree that he can't deal with most walls, since even with a super-effective hit he cannot 2HKO (in the case of Celebi). However, he can outspeed every wall and deal enough damage to the point where something else can set-up or take care of the wall.
 
"Coverage" with regards to a Choice Scarfer matters much, much less than consistently strong neutral damage. Being able to hit 20 types for SE doesn't matter if all but Pokemon weak to that attack can come in and set up. At least other scarfers like Jolteon and Zapdos either have offensive power or can come in on more than one attack.
 
Fair enough, so I guess this set relies a bit too much on prediction, which a player will not always have at any given point in a game. If you look at a late-game scenario, however, where many things have already been damaged, I'm sure that a neutral hit would be able to kill something at around half damage. While the split EVs do make it weak on both sides, it doesn't deal pitiful damage, and can still KO a Celebi at around 40%.

Would switching the EVs and changing the nature help at all? I could put more investment into physical attack, since most things taking a Thunderbolt or Flamethrower will die due to 4x effectiveness. It would kind of help to power up a neutral hit from Earthquake or Cross Chop or Ice Punch, but as Seven Deadly Sins said, the immunties to Earthquake and the accuracy of Cross Chop may completely ruin the set.
 
Part of the reason Electivire is so "successful" in OU (I say that in quotes because it really isn't very successful) is because of its ability to boast tons of coverage, allowing nearly no safe switch-ins. When you lock Electivire with Scarf, you really take away from its ability to do so. I'm going to have to say no to this, because Electivire is way better off baiting an Electric-type attack to gain that speed boost.
 
You say that it's supposed to come in late game and pick off weaker Pokemon. But, there are better options for that. If that is your sole reason for locking Electivire's great type coverage down to a single move, then you are better off looking at someone with greater stats to fill the role of taking out weakened Pokemon.

If you are using it for more of a surprise value, well, might as well use Manectric.
 
Part of the reason Electivire is so "successful" in OU (I say that in quotes because it really isn't very successful) is because of its ability to boast tons of coverage, allowing nearly no safe switch-ins. When you lock Electivire with Scarf, you really take away from its ability to do so. I'm going to have to say no to this, because Electivire is way better off baiting an Electric-type attack to gain that speed boost.

Yeah, that was my main concern when making this set. I'm probably the only person who thinks of Electivire as a competent Pokemon, and I realized that the lack of a choice of move kind of ruined the purpose of having a diverse moveset. It still works as a revenge killer, but now I see it doesn't have as much potential as I initially thought. Well, it was worth a shot, right? :D
 
I disapprove this set as well. My QC partners have already stated what I think about this set, and among all the aforementioned details the one that concerns me the most is that Electivire, by using a CS, won't be able anymore to threaten his opponent with the useful moveset and versatility he has. Therefore, being locked into a single move (even after having received a Motor Drive boost) won't be particularly great. Electivire is also vulnerable to every type of entry hazard, which at the end of the day makes this set be even more questionable. Finally, as outlined above, the Pokemon in question can play a much better roll by either using a mixed set with a bit of surprise factor in Expert Belt, or Life Orb in order to cause more damage and take down a few Pokemon that otherwise wouldn't die. In summary, versatility is the key factor for Electivire's successfulness in the OU metagame, and holding a Scarf doesn't help to accomplish this.

Thank you for your contribution, but we don't feel like this set deserves a spot on-site.
 
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