Empoleon and Starmie

[gabriel]

I hate to say I told you so, but:
252 HP / 100 SAtk / 152 SDef Modest is MY ev spread. Counters Starmie very well. How are you surprised that a special wall stops a special attacker? Seriously, what's the big revelation? With that set even Magnezone's Thunderbolt does only 70% (not that you switch in to him, but you can KO him).

So yeah.

As I showed with the calculations I posted above, you need 110(108) Sp.Atk for a sure 2KO on Starmie. Just pointing that, so people will be sure about the right Sp.Atk needed.

All that means is that Empoleon won't DIE to SpecStar. Lots of stuff can "not die" to a spec'd Starmie tbolt. That doesn't make it a counter -- it's a hobbled survivor. If I can deal over 50% damage to the pokemon switched in to see if I'm speced/banded, I'd say that's a pretty good deal. I'll gladly "reveal" my moveset to my opponent, by pounding one of their walls down to yellow health.

Pokemon is a team work game. The main reason I'd use Empoleon is to counter my DD Mence/Chomp counters. That way, having the ability to switch in every attack, and surviving 1 (or maybe 2) TBolt are more than enough. That way I can just send Dugtrio or Ttar to trap/pursuit Starmie to death.

And let's suppose your Specs Star is facing a Garchomp, and you know your opponent has Empoleon. Both are skilled players. Would you really feel confortable to use TBolt expecting a switch? Remember if your Specs Star is Timid, Empoleon may not be 2KOed, and if it's Modest, it's outspeeded by Garchomp.

If Empoleon lets 3 Pokemon that has Starmie problems kill it with easy, and kills non-Specs version by itself, it's certainly a counter. Garchomp and Ttar will have a much easier setup after Starmie is gone. I have no doubt Empoleon's more than useful to counter the psychic star, even if it's holding Choice Specs.

Yeah I agree with doug, so you trade 50% of your walls life, just to learn that your opponent is using a certain moveset, not the best deal ever. Its also not the worst thing that could happen, but still makes you cringe.

Neways if your opponent drops your empoleon into killing range from the next tbolt... whos to say they wont predict the switch into a grounder? And send out there own counter to that? Its not like empoleon poses that much of a threat.

If they're holding Specs, they're locked on TBolt. If they aren't, Empoleon doesn't need to switch.

Again, Pokemon is team work. Just like I said above, Empoleon counters non-Specs Star effectively but can't counter Specs Star by itself. But if it helps some major threats to get rid of Starmie and setup, why in the hell can't it be considered a counter? Forget the theoric definition of counter. Look at what Empoleon can do in battle to judge it's potential.

Don't underestimate Empoleon. Sure, he's definitely not going to be something you send in to outstall Special threats. But he's unique in that he actually kills them with its great offense. Resisting Porygon-Z and Azelf STAB can't hurt either.

"trading half your wall's life" sounds bad, but that's based on the outdated mentality that you only need one wall per attacking type and that walls should stall everything.

True enough. You're expecting Empoleon to be Blissey, and it's a lot worse on walling, but can cause much more trouble with a perfect combination of attack, defense and team work.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Empoleon. I don't play it on my teams, but I've got a lot of respect for it. I think a lot of people forget what Empoleon can do. Not only does it resist a lot of stuff, but more importantly, it can kill a lot of stuff it resists. That's really the great thing about Empoleon. Yes, Blissey can wall the shit out of stuff. But, it can threaten very little. That's why Blissey is a one-turn switch in 90% of the time. Empoleon can switch in and stay there.

I just don't think I'd be blind switching into Starmie, just to scout the moveset. In that case, Blissey is really much safer. And, everybody has Blissey on their team, so why risk Empoleon? I like Empoleon. But, it's not a Starmie counter.

You won't switch just to "scout the moveset". You switch expecting to wall and kill it like if it's a defensive Starmie. If you take a huge amount of damage from TBolt, switch to Garchomp/Ttar/Dugtrio or any other effective counter that can switches on TBolt, but can't switch on Surf/IB, and you've got Starmie countered thanks to Empoleon

Yeah, in a roundabout way, that was kinda my point. For the movesets mentioned here, your "Starmie counter" is your special wall. You don't need a dedicated Starmie counter. You make an even more practical argument -- in that Starmie is really only used for spinning these days.

Actually, I see a lot more Specs Star on Wi-Fi than Spinners, but that's not the point. If you're gonna use Empoleon, I believe you need an effective Bulky Water Starmie counter (not wall) to protect your team.

And it's important to remember Empoleon counters Specs Mence and a lot of Choicers making it an even better Special Wall. I should try it once I get tired of Bliss.

---

No doubts it was the longest post I ever posted, but I believe I made it clear why Empoleon is an effective Starmie counter. Read all the arguments.

 

[dekzeh]

Dude, what you're saying is that a combination of Empoleon and a Ground type makes a Starmie counter but you're just saying yourself that Empoleon by itself does not counter Starmie.
Anyway, this discussion is stupid, just use Empoleon to 'counter' Starmies if it works for you instead of posting non-sense arguments over and over.

 

[gabriel]

non-sense arguments? Try answering this question. If Empoleon can counter defensive Starmie, and help other pogeys to switch and kill it on Specs TBolt, why can't Empoleon be a counter?

It's a lot more difficult than saying my arguments are non-sense

 

[dekzeh]

Empoleon can't be a counter because it may lose to Starmie. Period.
And anyway, if you're happy with Empoleon countering Starmie, just go and use it, no need to post this stuff here.

 

[gabriel]

Empoleon can't be a counter because it may lose to Starmie. Period.
And anyway, if you're happy with Empoleon countering Starmie, just go and use it, no need to post this stuff here.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34781

Read this guide and you'll understanding why trapping is an important part of countering stuff. And I've already explained a lot of times how Empoleon can counter or trap Starmie, so I hope you got the point. If Empoleon can counter or trap Starmie, depending on the set, congratulations, you've got yourself a counter.

What pisses me off is the way you treat the discussion as "non-sense argument". We're in a forum, and I'm trying to debate some competitive subject. If you think it is not something that worth a discussion, or even that it's something stupid, you better don't post instead of posting an usual argument and saying that the entire discussion is useless.

Remember there's someone who's spending his time to run calculations and post information just to create a healthy and enjoyable discussion.

 

[CWW]

If you take a huge amount of damage from TBolt, switch to Garchomp/Ttar/Dugtrio or any other effective counter that can switches on TBolt, but can't switch on Surf/IB, and you've got Starmie countered thanks to Empoleon

It doesn't take away the fact that Starmie can deal more than 50% to your defensive wall, crippling it for the rest of the match without Wish support.

Anyone Choiced can be countered if you switch in a resist. It's called prediction. Likewise, you can be severely punished if you predict wrong.

 

[gabriel]

But in the Empoleon example, it's much more than switching to a resistance, you're trapping it.

If it's locked on TBolt, Ttar can easily switch in and pursuit it, and Dugtrio traps it and kill while Starmie can't touch you. So congratulations, you countered Starmie thanks to Empoleon.

If Starmie is facing Garchomp, and your opponent knows you have Starmie (you've already switched into a couple of IB), a prediction war can finish Starmie. Isn't Empoleon threatening at all to the blue star?

You need no more than some skill to counter any kind of Starmie with Empoleon. To clear it:

Empoleon isn't a true Starmie counter as it doesn't fit the counter definition when facing Specs Star (but it does when facing defensive starmies).

But Empoleon can counter Specs Star with a basic team work, so it is a potential counter and a potential threat to any Starmie.

 

[cim]

Gabriel, don't forget that my set uses a Modest nature, thus very easily 2HKOing Starmie. Regardless, you shouldn't need a specific Starmie counter, he's not that amazing at life. This is more of a testament to Empoleon's assets rather than Starmie's uncounterability.

 

[gabriel]

If you use a Modest Nature, Empoleon's walling potential decreases a lot. It should take more than 60% from Specs TBolt and will be 3KOed by defensive versions. It isn't worthy, because you can 2KO Starmie with a Calm nature and Empoleon doesn't really need a high Sp.Atk.

And of course, there's a lot more Empoleon can do, like counter Bulky waters, and wall choice users, but Starmie is really threatening and can rape your team if you're not prepared, and it also prevents some major threats to setup, so it shouldn't be taken as lightly and it's something really important to counter.

 

[DougJustDoug]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34781

Read this guide and you'll understanding why trapping is an important part of countering stuff. And I've already explained a lot of times how Empoleon can counter or trap Starmie, so I hope you got the point. If Empoleon can counter or trap Starmie, depending on the set, congratulations, you've got yourself a counter.

I think you are pointing out how Empoleon can be used effectively on a team. Specifically, you have mentioned how it might be used when facing a Starmie. I don't think of that as a counter, because Empoleon loses to Starmie one-on-one. But, your example does point out a way Empoleon can be useful. We're probably just disagreeing on language at this point. So, I'll drop it from here on.

What pisses me off is the way you treat the discussion as "non-sense argument". We're in a forum, and I'm trying to debate some competitive subject. If you think it is not something that worth a discussion, or even that it's something stupid, you better don't post instead of posting an usual argument and saying that the entire discussion is useless.

Remember there's someone who's spending his time to run calculations and post information just to create a healthy and enjoyable discussion.

I agree that discussions are the whole point of the forum. If people don't want to debate, they can ignore the thread. While I don't agree with some of your points, I think the discussion is perfectly "valid" -- whatever that means.