Pokémon Empoleon

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Reliable recovery is the only thing preventing it from becoming the best Defogger that doesn't take a mega slot, IMO.
I honestly still think Lati@s' better offenses/bulk and speed would usurp any role that empoleon would possess with reliable recovery as a specially defensive baton passer. The two main advantages it has are its typing scald, but Latios' surf hits just as hard, albeit forfeiting the burn chance. While empoleon's lesser stealth rock weakness also seems a bonus, it's forfeited by the fact that it's affected by both spikes and sticky web that it might want to clear. While empoleon has decent resistances (even with the steel nerf), they're mostly to attacks commonly paired with other things that hit it supereffectively; rock is often seen alongside a ground type attack, as is dragon. Ice is usually used alongside an electric type attack, and bug (since U-Turn is basically the only half decent bug move in OU) is almost always paired with a volt switch user (and other stray bug attacks, like heracross's megahorn, are also usually accompanies by a supereffective hit). The biggest niche that empoleon brings is its ability to switch into water types with ice type coverage, whereas Lati@s (mostly Latias here; Latios is kind of differently played, since he's not usually running a specially defensive set) is much better able to wall the threats of OU, especially with drastically increased bulk. Even if the penguin got, say, roost, it would still be, in my opinion, inferior to Latias in at least 90% of cases.

EDIT: Hm... didn't realize it gets knock off. Which gives it some niche, although I maintain that Latias would still outclass it most of the time due to her superior bulk. I still think support mega-scizor is 100% superior as a defog + knock off absuer (and imo possibly the most underrated pokemon in the current meta), but if you're not up for using your mega slot for him, eh.
 
it does have sword dance and priority with a decent attack stat. Empoleon seems to be primarily a sweeper because of that pesky ground weakness, the agility+3 attacks hits pretty damn hard since you can run modest on it. maybe specs is worthwhile since it has so many resists to switch in on and unleash hydro pumps
 
I honestly still think Lati@s' better offenses/bulk and speed would usurp any role that empoleon would possess with reliable recovery as a specially defensive baton passer. The two main advantages it has are its typing scald, but Latios' surf hits just as hard, albeit forfeiting the burn chance. While empoleon's lesser stealth rock weakness also seems a bonus, it's forfeited by the fact that it's affected by both spikes and sticky web that it might want to clear. While empoleon has decent resistances (even with the steel nerf), they're mostly to attacks commonly paired with other things that hit it supereffectively; rock is often seen alongside a ground type attack, as is dragon. Ice is usually used alongside an electric type attack, and bug (since U-Turn is basically the only half decent bug move in OU) is almost always paired with a volt switch user (and other stray bug attacks, like heracross's megahorn, are also usually accompanies by a supereffective hit). The biggest niche that empoleon brings is its ability to switch into water types with ice type coverage, whereas Lati@s (mostly Latias here; Latios is kind of differently played, since he's not usually running a specially defensive set) is much better able to wall the threats of OU, especially with drastically increased bulk. Even if the penguin got, say, roost, it would still be, in my opinion, inferior to Latias in at least 90% of cases.

EDIT: Hm... didn't realize it gets knock off. Which gives it some niche, although I maintain that Latias would still outclass it most of the time due to her superior bulk. I still think support mega-scizor is 100% superior as a defog + knock off absuer (and imo possibly the most underrated pokemon in the current meta), but if you're not up for using your mega slot for him, eh.
Acess to knock off and more resistances than Mandibuzz are basically its biggest draws. if it got roost it would really depend on your team on which one was better
 
So I had a stupid theory that apparently has been catching people off guard like no tomorrow.

I've been running Defiant Empoleon with this:

Empoleon @ Weakness Policy
Adamant
104 HP/252 Atk/152 SpDef
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance
- Drill Peck
- Earthquake/Steel Wing (lol)


As stupid as this set looks hear me out:

It is a one time "make it or break it" but the idea is to trigger Empoleon with Swords Dance and pair him up with a pokemon that can hit him with a very weak special move. For this I've been running Heliolisk with Parabolic charge. It procs Weakness Policy and Empoleon now has a 4x Aqua Jet up his sleeve and Heliolisk starts fighting back with powerful moves that don't touch Empoleon. I could also do the same with Gardevoir Thunderbolt but no EV's in special attack while also using Heal Pulse to bring Empoleon back up to top survival capabilities.

This would be easier if I could just use Confide on him -_-

Before anyone calls "Gimmick" let me inform you that this sort of thing is fucking fun to win with and has had success in the same department as my Trick Room. If the guy figures out what is going on (Usually no) then the combo is useless. That and this is ENTIRELY meant for doubles as Empoleon isn't supposed to like taking super effective hits often. (But can take a few)

Anyone know if Weakness Policy procs through Substitute? That'd make this set easier to work with. (Answered)
 
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So I had a stupid theory that apparently has been catching people off guard like no tomorrow.
Anyone know if Weakness Policy procs through Substitute? That'd make this set easier to work with.
AFAIK, Weakness Policy requires the holder to take super-effective damage from the attack, so substitute will prevent it from working.

Edit: Tested on Pokémon Y in Restaurant Le Nah Doubleswith Substitute Dragonite + Weakness Policy and Ice Fang Mamoswine (don't judge, it was for testing). Weakness Policy fails to activate, even if the sub is KOed.
 
Damn, ah well, back to using this very Masochist sort of method. (Or would it be second wind...)
Well, how much does Parabolic Charge do? You probably could set up a Substitute after getting hit, but the question is whether Empoleon can survive any hits before it puts down the sub. inb4 Earthquake
 
Well, how much does Parabolic Charge do? You probably could set up a Substitute after getting hit, but the question is whether Empoleon can survive any hits before it puts down the sub. inb4 Earthquake
Parabolic charge isn't really that much on the damage amount so that's why I picked it as a "Weakness Policy Proc" move, besides Heliolisk is adorably underrated as a pokemon.

As for the substitute, I prefer getting off a +4 Attack Empoleon due to his rather...unfortunate ability to not have a great Physical attack power. Empoleon is one of the few pokemon I think that could abuse something like this (Dragonite being the only other one that comes to mind, all others are too frail/don't work). Friendly fire is something that really needs to be taken with a grain of salt, otherwise it's pointlessly gimmicky and you'll end up with a pokemon who may not like you at the end of the day.

This strategy I came up with exists only because I hope to cause as much chaos as I can on both showdown and normal online play in many ways are successful. So far, this has been about 75%. I wouldn't recommend it that much sadly, stick to his strengths, Special Defensive, Assault Vest Abuser, Defogger are so far the best roles for him.
 
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While I was playing around on the teamCreator, I just created this set because it catches opponents slightly off guard. I know it's definitely not the best (maybe one of the worst? LOL) but SD aqua jet has really saved me in a couple of situations when my opponent wasn't expecting it.
Constructive criticism, anyone? I'd love to have you give me advice xD

Empoleon Leftovers
Adamant
Defiant
252 HP/252 Atk/4 SpDef
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rocks
- Earthquake
 
I honestly still think Lati@s' better offenses/bulk and speed would usurp any role that empoleon would possess with reliable recovery as a specially defensive baton passer. The two main advantages it has are its typing scald, but Latios' surf hits just as hard, albeit forfeiting the burn chance. While empoleon's lesser stealth rock weakness also seems a bonus, it's forfeited by the fact that it's affected by both spikes and sticky web that it might want to clear. While empoleon has decent resistances (even with the steel nerf), they're mostly to attacks commonly paired with other things that hit it supereffectively; rock is often seen alongside a ground type attack, as is dragon. Ice is usually used alongside an electric type attack, and bug (since U-Turn is basically the only half decent bug move in OU) is almost always paired with a volt switch user (and other stray bug attacks, like heracross's megahorn, are also usually accompanies by a supereffective hit). The biggest niche that empoleon brings is its ability to switch into water types with ice type coverage, whereas Lati@s (mostly Latias here; Latios is kind of differently played, since he's not usually running a specially defensive set) is much better able to wall the threats of OU, especially with drastically increased bulk. Even if the penguin got, say, roost, it would still be, in my opinion, inferior to Latias in at least 90% of cases.

EDIT: Hm... didn't realize it gets knock off. Which gives it some niche, although I maintain that Latias would still outclass it most of the time due to her superior bulk. I still think support mega-scizor is 100% superior as a defog + knock off absuer (and imo possibly the most underrated pokemon in the current meta), but if you're not up for using your mega slot for him, eh.
You forgot about SR, and water/steel is still a strong combination to be considered, scald is also a strong reason with its burn.
 
Stat lowering moves are just so rare(except for ones like Shadow Ball, but those are unreliable), so you'll probably just find your Empoleon attempting to sweep without Defiant triggering. You want something more reliable.

...I've been telling people they need something more reliable a lot lately. I think I'm starting to see a pattern here.
Sticky web tho? I always run it on bisharp so I can get a perfect switch in to a sticky web pokemon
 
Sticky web tho? I always run it on bisharp so I can get a perfect switch in to a sticky web pokemon
Sticky web isn't that common and even after the boost Empoleon's attack is fairly low and his speed means you have to rely on a 40BP move. Even at +4 it isn't THAT strong. If you need water priority just stick to Crawdaunt and Azumarill. They have better attack, can boost up as well and don't need opposing sticky web to be threatening

Max attack +2 Adamant Empoleon Aqua Jet isn't even a guaranteed OHKO on something that's weak to it and as frail as Talonflame (Granted LO and/or SR would grab the kill, the point remains that that is just REALLY weak for a STAB priority abuser)
+2 252+ Atk Empoleon Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 288-342 (96.6 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

If Empoleon remains viable in OU it will probably because of his Sub+Petaya and/or its support set, the former is still ludicrously difficult to wall (provided you are prepared to deal with opposing priority and bulky waters) and the latter has access to Defog, Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Roar, Scald, etc and great resistances and usable special bulk.
 
Sticky web tho? I always run it on bisharp so I can get a perfect switch in to a sticky web pokemon
Someone already said that to me....
The deal with Defog, Intimidate, and Sticky Web is they won't be on every team, and you can't force your opponent to use them on you. You can take advantage of them, but you can't be dependent of them in order to work. And with Empoleon's attack stat, it is dependent on them.

So even if it wasn't outclassed, it's still an iffy strategy.
 
What would you suggest on the specially defensive set if stealth rock is already on your team? (don't say it's not viable; I'm running it in monotype)
 
What would you suggest on the specially defensive set if stealth rock is already on your team? (don't say it's not viable; I'm running it in monotype)
Basically what finncent1 said, you can also opt for Grass Knot or Toxic over Knock Off if you'd like.
 
Defog is somewhat counterproductive when you already have hazards (especially on my team, where I also have a spiker). I might run scald/toxic/ice beam/protect (or should I run knock off in the last slot?) Thanks a lot.
 
I still don't get the logic behind giving Empoleon Defiant when his special attack is better than his physical.
 

Chadtherest00

Wi-Fi Blacklisted
Defog is somewhat counterproductive when you already have hazards (especially on my team, where I also have a spiker). I might run scald/toxic/ice beam/protect (or should I run knock off in the last slot?) Thanks a lot.

Someone nice enough should give us stealth rocks lol
 
Mostly because they wanted to make a good mixed attacker
But as far as I know it doesn't get any physical Steel Stab, right? If they wanted to make it a good mixed attacker at least have the decency to give him physical steel stab.

Does anybody use Empoleon as a mixed attacker?
 
But as far as I know it doesn't get any physical Steel Stab, right? If they wanted to make it a good mixed attacker at least have the decency to give him physical steel stab.

Does anybody use Empoleon as a mixed attacker?
It gets Steel Wing...and Metal Claw. I don't know if that counts...
 
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