Endeavor

[Texas Cloverleaf]

So the last thread (located here) died off of discussion so this will revive it in a more current context.

The Current Endeavor:

The user recalls the hardships of the match and tries its hardest to pound that experience into its opponent. Endeavor fails unless the target has more HP remaining than the user. Endeavor can only be used once in the same round as Endure. This move fails unless the user can pay the entire Energy Cost.
CT: Force
Fixed Damage Formula: (Target HP - User HP) / 1.75
Energy Cost Formula: 6 + (Calculated Damage / 1.75)

The original series of posts sparking discussion about Endeavour:

In theory, Endeavor would be a balanced version of ingame, since ingame equals hp and here we just deal a proportional damage. But in ASB, after a mon defeats another, when the replacement is sent out, chances are that the weakened mon will still be able to use Endeavor at least once. That possibility is greatly increased by how Endure works and the turn-based aspect of ASB (so if you have a weak mon with endeavor and you are ordering last, the odds are that you will manage to fire at least one of those). On a situation like that, Endeavor deals up to 50hp of damage, something that no other move (and very few combos) can muster. And if you check battles, you will see that this happens quite a lot and is enough to put the opposing player in a spot extremely difficult to come out (see deadfox081 previous subway for an example). I propose we cap the damage, like we do with Destiny Bond and Final Gambit. 30 seems like a good place to start, since it is still big enough to make a splash, but not too much.

3) I completely agree with capping the damage of Endeavor, although I believe that in such a case we should also cap the energy cost (so that a Pokemon doesn't pay the equivalent of a 50 dmg blow in terms of energy for a 30 dmg blow)

Endeavor: Disagree about the cap though. For one thing, Endeavor is a niche move similar to Reversal, in that the user would have to be at a disadvantage to be able to use it effectively. If the problem is "50 damage blow in terms of energy of a 30 damage blow", then I'd rather propose tweaking the multiplier (1.75 is a cumbersome decimal anyway, why not change it to an integer like 2?)

Endeavor: The largest problem seems to be abuse after a round of Endure, in which case I'd suggest simply giving the move the Perish Song treatment and making it -1 Priority. Either that or some arbitrary cap on the damage it can do.

Endeavor: Even with a -1 priority that doesn't solve the ability to be used with Endure to cause massive damage (ex. I have 13 Hp after defeating an opposing mon, another mon comes out, it's faster but it lacks encore, now I can use Endure while he can attack me or use Infestation or something like that, which will probably not kill me, now I get at least one action to do whatever I want, I doesn't even matter if I Endeavor has -1 priority since I will get to do it anyway (and now I don't even have to worry about Phantom Force or Bounce)) So I agree that a 30 dmg cap would be the ideal here (Everything else is capped like that anyway)

Some proposed solutions:

a) Cap the damage (20/25/30/40/50)
b) CT: None
c) Cannot be used under Endure
d) Alter the damage formula (Fixed Damage Formula: (EN / 100) x (Target HP - User HP) / 1.75)
e) Alter the energy formula (Energy Cost Formula: 6 + (Calculated Damage))
f) Alter the damage formula (Fixed Damage Formula: (Target HP - User HP) / 2)


There was more or less a consensus that Endeavor was in need of a nerf of some form in the previous thread so, what I'd like you guys to discuss:

How much should Endeavour be nerfed? (If you don't think it should be nerfed answer that here)
Which of the above, or which combination of the above should be used to nerf Endeavor
If none of the above, how should it be nerfed?


Please keep posts civil, intelligent, and on-topic.

 

[Objection]

I don't have much to say about this except, in all honesty, I don't know why changing the CT to None was ever suggested. I mean, from what I recall of this discussion in the feedback thread, the problem is with Endeavor on its own, not with a combo of Endeavor + X (as the "requires enough energy" clause has already done enough damage to Endeavor combos). How does changing the CT to None help with Endeavor on its own?

 

[Mulan15262]

I agree with objection. I haven't seen anyone even try using a combo including endeavor, so I fail to see how b will solve anything. The feedback thread even said that changing its CT to None will fix nothing.

 

[Pallas Athena]

I don't think Endeavor combinations are as much a problem as the ability to use a mostly dead Pokemon to do huge damage to something before it actually dies. A simple damage cap seems like the easiest solution to this in my opinion. 25 or 30 puts it in line with most of the other low health moves like Destiny Bond, Reversal, and Pain Split.

 

[ZhengTann]

This just came to me - worth noting that Endeavour, right now, is one of the very few moves that allow 90 HP mons to even the playing field against 130 HP mons right off the bat. If we were to cap damage on moves in general (not just Endeavour, mind you), then yeah, it pays to be the mon with higher HP right at the start. Given that there were some proposition in Feedback on how HP is too vital a factor in ASB, I figured this might come as a new angle.

In my previous post, I've put forward my thoughts on "why" we should nerf Endeavour, before we look at "how". So looking at the options in OP, I would say e) and f) looks to be the options that fit most. It can be either one, or it can be a combination of the two.

 

[Dogfish44]

48 Hours, if you have any thoughts on this one please put them up.[/b]

 

[Dogfish44]

OK, this one's a pre-built slate almost. Next time I get one of these I'm delegating it ¬_¬

Stage 1:

Should Endeavour damage be capped?
Yes
No

Stage 1b: IF Yes...

What cap should be used for Endeavour damage?
20
25
30

Stage 2:

Should Endeavour be usable under Endure?
Yes
No

Should Endavour be usable in a combo?
Yes
No

Stage 3:

What damage formula should Endeavour use?
Fixed Damage Formula: (EN / 100) x (Target HP - User HP) / 1.75
Fixed Damage Formula: (Target HP - User HP) / 2
Keep it the same

Stage 4:

What EN Cost should Endeavour use?
Energy Cost Formula: 6 + (Calculated Damage)
Keep it the same

That was fun to type out ¬_¬