• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

Espeon (Substitute + 3 Attacks)

Yes, I believe we should start discussing this sets merits and usefulness if one was going to use this over Alakazam

You're still trying to bring Alakazam into the conversation. This set is a good Espeon set. That's the bottom line. You don't have to present a reason why someone should use this over Alakazam. There are two reasons someone wants to look at a mon's analysis. It's either "I want to use this Pokemon what can it do." In that regard we should show them every possible viable set they could use. Maybe they'll look at this set and if we mention in it early on that it is outclassed by Zam they'll either go "i don't care i still want to use espeon," they'll use one of the other sets, or they'll switch to zam. The other case is that their opponent is using espeon. In that case we want them to be prepared for every espeon set that is threatening.
 
Okay. Address this set as per its individual merits (even if dual-coverage does not apply). While current policy is unclear in cases of outclassed Pokemon, steps have been taken to implement a new policy in which Pokemon are judged by their own merits for dual-coverage AND identification purposes. It hasn't been made official yet, but it's moving in that direction, so there's less harm in adopting it than not doing so.
 
Well it would still be foolish to not make a mention of it at all. At least that's my opinion. It's like if Roserade drops back to UU, you'd need to mention what are special LO Venusaur's advantages/disadvantages over it, to help the people reading. If they're dead set on using Espeon/Venusaur they will, but most competitive players would just high-tail over to Alakazam or Roserade's analysis and use them instead. So yes if this set is approved and put on site, it would need at least a slight mention in AC or something of what we've talked about int his thread.
 
Yeah, sorry, that was part of it too. For everyone's benefit:
First of all, we definitely need to address what types of sets should qualify to be on-site. This is an issue that is not limited to UU, considering there are always OU sets for UU Pokemon being posted, and Ubers sets for OU Pokemon, etc.. Up until now, we have been rejecting sets that have been "outclassed", but I would like to revisit that policy. I think even if a set is slightly outclassed in a tier, if it simply works it should be approved. HOWEVER, we should request that the analysis mention which other Pokemon "outclass" that set, so that when users are reading the analysis, they can make the choice themselves whether they want to stick with the slightly worse (but still effective) version of a set or not. The reason for doing this is not to promote outclassed sets, but to provide a method for users to look up potential sets while they're mid-battle. If someone hopped on the OU ladder and ran into a Hariyama lead, I would like them to be able to quickly reference our Analysis section to figure out what to expect. I'd like to hear everybody's opinion on this.
 
Which is completely irrelevant for deciding if this set should go in the Espeon analysis. How many more times must we go over this concept?

this

Why aren't we looking at it as a standalone sweeper? The OP overmentions Alakazam (which is clearly just because he didn't think it'd be accepted if he didn't talk about how it isn't outclassed by Zam or how it can be useful at the same time as Zam, which wasn't needed) and so does the rest of the thread. As far as an Espeon set this would work fine as a standalone sweeper. So there's no need to mention Alakazam anymore guys.

THIS

We've already decided a while ago that outclassed sets still go in the analysis as long as that pokemon does the set well in comparison to the rest of its sets.

I wish I knew this was something that was actually decided on. Could have saved a lot of arguing.

This set is a good Espeon set. That's the bottom line.

Exactly. Thank you Jabba for making the argument I'm too stupid to make. :)

If we're done discussing Alakazam, which I'll make a mention of (at least) in the set comments, we can start discussing/evaluating the actual set. Anyone have any comment about the last slot? Personally I like Grass Knot because it 2HKOes Bold and Calm 252/56 Milotic as well as hitting Spiritomb reasonably well, as Heysup mentioned, which helps finish it off once it's weak. As I mentioned in the comments, GK means you can't stay in on the pixies, but I'd rather destroy Milotic.
 
I tested this set, and I liked it. Alakazam would have been better in most situations, but Espeon did give a few competitive advantages.

1. I survived a ScarfApe U-turn.
2. I can use Lead Alakazam (and sweeper Mismagius too)
3. People are scared of CM + BP so they don't send in Chansey.
4. Modest LO Zam breaks walls for an Espeon sweep, more than the other way around. It gradually dies from priority and recoil, but Espeon is a great clean up mon.

This is a good set, though Alakazam is better. It deserves an analysis nonetheless.

stamp3.png
 
Grass Knot / Shadow Ball is basically how I'd put it. Grass Knot is better generally, but there are specific scenarios where I would have preferred shadow ball.
 
I agree that Grass Knot is generally better, but Shadow Ball is useful for the pixies and getting quick kills on Missy or Modest Kazam.

The most important thing I can mention...please outline why 3 attacks is better than just running calm mind and two attacks. I would point out that it serves double-dragon type strategies and does better against bulky offense, but worse against stallish teams that can recover on hits (things like Calm Milotic and Clefable).
 
I agree that Grass Knot is generally better, but Shadow Ball is useful for the pixies and getting quick kills on Missy or Modest Kazam.

The most important thing I can mention...please outline why 3 attacks is better than just running calm mind and two attacks. I would point out that it serves double-dragon type strategies and does better against bulky offense, but worse against stallish teams that can recover on hits (things like Calm Milotic and Clefable).

Well the obvious answer would be that 3 move coverage is far far far superior to two-move coverage especially when you're running with a shitty STAB Psychic.

Of course, he should include that.
 
:)

I'll start writing this soon.

Edit: what do peeps think about

- 29 HP IV better? Hits 269 so 1 pt. less LO recoil with same Sub HP.
 
are you done writing this? if so, I'll GP check it for you.

(the reason I ask is because there was no "lol write-up's finished" post)
 
inb4snorlaxe :P

GP Check 1/2

Deletions in Red
Additions in Blue

[SET]
name: Substitute + 3 Attacks
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Hidden Power Ground
move 4: Grass Knot / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
ivs: 29 HP
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Espeon is fast, frail, and hits like a truck, so a Substitute + 3 Attacks set is a natural choice. Three attacks instead of two upgrades Espeon's type coverage substantially, which alleviates the need to boost its Special Attack in order to beat bulkier Pokemon. Since Espeon forces many Pokemon to switch out, setting up a Substitute should always be its first priority. Substitute helps to ease prediction, allowing it to fire off the optimal attack twice on slower Pokemon. Furthermore, Substitute shields Espeon from Dark-type switch-ins eager to trap it with Pursuit or nail it with Sucker Punch. While Spiritomb remains a threat, min/min minimal defenses Drapion and Houndoom will be OHKOed after Stealth Rock, and Skuntank is likely to meet the same fate.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Espeon has a number of viable attacks in its arsenal, but the combination of Psychic and Hidden Power Ground gives the best core type coverage. Unlike in the OU environment, STAB Psychic can steamroll many Pokemon in UU, where only a handful resist it. Hidden Power Ground 2HKOes Steelix, and scores OHKOs on Aggron and the aforementioned Dark-types after Stealth Rock damage. Grass Knot is the preferred attack to round out the set, but Shadow Ball is also a viable option depending on what you want to hit. Grass Knot scores a very important 2HKO on all common Milotic variants, OHKOes Rhyperior and Donphan, and hits Spiritomb for 100 Base Power. Shadow Ball, meanwhile, roughs up Exeggutor, Uxie, and Mesprit, who would otherwise shrug off any of Espeon's attacks. It also allows Espeon to OHKO Mismagius, which it fails to do with Psychic even after Stealth Rock. Both options nail Slowbro and Claydol for super effective damage as well. As these figures examples demonstrate, having Stealth Rock up is absolutely imperative for Espeon to achieve several key OHKOs.</p>

<p>In UU, this set struggles to avoid being overshadowed by Alakazam, whose higher Speed and access to Focus Blast give it an edge over Espeon. There are, however, several advantages to running this set with Espeon. The most obvious difference is in defensive stats, where as Espeon is significantly bulkier than Alakazam, although this is strictly relative, since Espeon is still moderately fragile by objective standards. Another difference is that opponents will initially anticipate Espeon's trademark Baton Pass, which may cause them to inadvertently put something like Encore Clefable or Haze Milotic in the line of fire. Additionally, using this set in tandem with Alakazam is also an option. Alakazam makes a great anti-lead that can prevent entry hazards and lure out Espeon's counters so you can plot a way to destroy them before revealing Espeon.</p>

<p>Not many Pokemon can handle Espeon once it is hiding behind a Substitute; Registeel and Chansey are the two main exceptions to this. Standard Registeel avoids being 3HKOed, although it won't enjoy frequently switching in without reiable reliable recovery, while Rest variants and Chansey can wall Espeon with ease. Spiritomb can be added to the list under most circumstances, and is Espeon's most threatening counter since it commonly carries Pursuit. Choice Band variants must be at full health to avoid a 2HKO from Grass Knot, and even then there is a small chance of it occurring. Specially defensive variants, especially those with Pursuit and a priority move, fare the best, and will force Espeon to flee while it still has its Substitute up. Espeon's teammates should definitely aim to take advantage of these three Pokemon, as they are really the only three surefire counters to Espeon in UU. Blaziken walks all over these Pokemon, and can set up a Swords Dance or Agility while Espeon's counter flees. Dugtrio makes an amazing partner as well, as it can trap and KO Registeel and Chansey, opening the door for Espeon to wreak havoc. Substitute Rhyperior can also set up on all three aforementioned counters Pokemon and proceed to hammer the opposing team with its massive offensive power.</p>

<p>Between Substitute and Life Orb damage, Espeon won't be sticking around long, so it is important to preserve what life little health it does have. Entry hazards take their toll quickly, as do most attacks. Therefore, it is important to pair Espeon with Pokemon that can get it free switches. U-turners, such as Scyther and Primeape, will lure out Pokemon like Weezing and Donphan, who both of whom Espeon can set up on easily. If you can fit Wish support onto your team, do so by all means, as it will greatly increase Espeon's lifespan. Clefable can use Wish and torture Registeel and Chansey with Encore.</p>

Good write-up.

gp2.png
 
Thanks Fatecrashers, I like your style. The one question I had was about the "minimal defenses" edit. That just sounds wrong, haha. Is that what you guys were told is correct?
 
No, that was just my personal preference since I thought that min/min sounded sort of incongruous. Having another GPer weigh in on this would be great.
 
if you don't like "min/min" then saying "Drapion and Houndoom with minimal Special Defense" or something along those lines works. usually I just say "4/0" or "sweeper spread"
 
Personally I'm fine with min/min, I just wasn't sure if that was the "correct" way to state it. Open to changing it as well though, of course.
 
GP CHECK 2/2

pink is grammar edits
blue is prose edits

[SET]
name: Substitute + 3 Attacks
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Psychic
move 3: Hidden Power Ground
move 4: Grass Knot / Shadow Ball
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
ivs: 29 HP
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Espeon is fast, frail, and hits like a truck, so a Substitute + 3 Attacks set is a natural choice. Three attacks instead of two upgrades Espeon's type coverage substantially, which alleviates the need to boost its Special Attack in order to beat bulkier Pokemon. Since Espeon forces many Pokemon to switch out, setting up a Substitute should always be its first priority. Substitute helps to ease prediction, allowing Espeon to fire off the optimal attack twice against slower Pokemon. Furthermore, Substitute shields Espeon from Dark-type switch-ins eager to trap it with Pursuit or nail it with Sucker Punch. While Spiritomb remains a threat, min/min Drapion and Houndoom will be OHKOed by Hidden Power Ground after Stealth Rock, and Skuntank is likely to meet the same fate.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Espeon has a number of viable attacks in its arsenal, but the combination of Psychic and Hidden Power Ground gives the best core type coverage. Unlike in the OU environment, STAB Psychic can steamroll many Pokemon in UU, where only a handful resist it. Hidden Power Ground 2HKOes Steelix, and scores OHKOs on Aggron and the aforementioned Dark-types after Stealth Rock damage. Grass Knot is the preferred attack in the final slot to round out the set, but Shadow Ball is also a viable option depending on what you want to hit. Grass Knot scores a very important 2HKO on all common Milotic variants, OHKOes Rhyperior and Donphan, and hits Spiritomb for 100 Base Power. Shadow Ball, meanwhile, roughs up Exeggutor, Uxie, and Mesprit, who would otherwise shrug off any of Espeon's attacks. It also allows Espeon to OHKO Mismagius, which it fails to do with Psychic even after Stealth Rock. Both options nail Slowbro and Claydol for super effective damage as well. As these examples demonstrate, having Stealth Rock support is absolutely imperative for Espeon to achieve several key OHKOs.</p>

<p>In UU, this set struggles to avoid being overshadowed by Alakazam, whose higher Speed and access to Focus Blast give it an edge over Espeon. There are, however, several advantages to running this Espeon set. The most obvious difference is in defensive stats, as Espeon is significantly bulkier than Alakazam; however, this is strictly relative, since Espeon is still moderately fragile by objective standards. Another difference is that opponents will initially anticipate Espeon's trademark Baton Pass, which may cause them to inadvertently put something like Encore Clefable or Haze Milotic in the line of fire. Additionally, using this set in tandem with Alakazam is also an option. Alakazam makes a great anti-lead that can prevent entry hazards from being set up and lure out Espeon's counters so that you can plot a way to destroy them before revealing Espeon.</p>

<p>Not many Pokemon can handle Espeon once it is hiding behind a Substitute; Registeel and Chansey are the two main exceptions to this. Standard Registeel avoids being 3HKOed, although it won't enjoy frequently switching in without reliable recovery, while Rest variants and Chansey can wall Espeon with ease. Spiritomb can be added to the list under most circumstances, and is Espeon's most threatening counter since it commonly carries Pursuit. However, keep in mind that Choice Band variants must be at full health to avoid a 2HKO from Grass Knot, and even then there is a small chance of it occurring. Specially defensive variants, especially those with Pursuit and a priority move, fare the best, and will force Espeon to flee while it still has its Substitute up. Espeon's teammates should definitely aim to take advantage of these three Pokemon, as they are really the only three surefire counters to Espeon in UU. Blaziken walks all over these Pokemon, and can set up a Swords Dance or Agility while Espeon's counter flees. Dugtrio makes an amazing partner as well, as it can trap and KO Registeel and Chansey, opening the door for Espeon to wreak havoc. Substitute Rhyperior can also set up on all three aforementioned counters and proceed to hammer the opposing team with its powerful STAB moves.</p>

<p>Between Substitute and Life Orb damage, Espeon won't be sticking around for long, so it is important to preserve what little health it does have. Entry hazards take their toll quickly, as do most attacks. Therefore, it is important to pair Espeon with Pokemon that can get it free switches. U-turn users, such as Scyther and Primeape, will lure out Pokemon like Weezing and Donphan, both of whom Espeon can set up on easily. If you can fit Wish support onto your team, do so by all means, as it will greatly increase Espeon's lifespan. Clefable can use Wish and torture Registeel and Chansey with Encore, making it a top-notch teammate.</p>

EXCELLENT write-up. this should be ready to go once the changes are implemented.

gp2.png
 
Thanks Snorlaxe. I kept "massive offensive power" because I didn't see anything wrong with it. LMK if I must change that.

Alright this should be just about ready to go. I'd like a QCer to look it over and make sure everything is good. Thanks everyone.
 
Back
Top