Every Rose has its Thorn ~ Reached #14 On the Ladder

Cooltrainer

Every Rose has its Thorn ~ Peaked #14 On the Ladder

Hey guys, I've done a couple unsuccessful RateMyTeam's in the past. This was most
because of poor execution, and also little testing. After a week or so of changing
teams, altering sets, I finally came across this one. I liked it because of its novelty.
It wasn't something outlandish, but it jumped off of the bandwagon from some of the
biggest trends in order to catch players off guard. This team got me number 14
on the LeaderBoard. I know for some of you, that's a day and a half's work.
But I've spent little time laddering, and yeah. That's something for me to brag about :).

It consists of a synergic-base, and then two uncommon sweepers that (hopefully)
catch the opponent off guard until it is too late.

Without further adieu, here is team: Every Rose has its Thorn.

The Core:
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479_rotom_heat_1_m.png
tyranitar_sprite.png

The Sweep:
245_suicune_2_m.png
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roserade.png

Roserade @ Focus Sash (Natural Cure)
Timid 252SpAtk/252Speed/4HP

  • Hidden Power [Ice]
  • Sleep Powder
  • Leaf Storm
  • Toxic Spikes
Sleep Powder was the main selling point to using Roserade. It's ability to put slower
leads into a position where they must offer sleep fodder is very useful. Leaf Storm is
obligatory STAB. I've considered Grass Knot, but the KOS and the damage output from
LeafStorm is just too immense to ignore. HP ICE deals with lead gliscors who attempt
to taunt me, Anti-Lead Dragonites, as well as outspeed HP Fire Roserades. Toxic spikes
allow my teamates to get KOs that they normally wouldnt, while whittling down HP as
they set up.

Vs The Top Leads:

Azelf - Switch right into Ttar as they set up Rocks or Taunt, and flip a coin so as to Pursuit or Crunch
Swampert - Lay down a layer of toxic spikes. They will either stay in as sleep fodder and stealth rock, or switch into Sleep Fodder (Or a Sleep Talker) From there, I still have my sash, and I can play accordingly.
Metagross - I always lay up one layer of spikes. If they go right for the Meteor Mash, that probably means they are Lum Berry'd. From there, I go to Rotom-H or Swampert to take the bulletpunch, switch predicting explosion, etc. My main goal with Roserade is to get up that one layer atleast.
Roserade - I just go for hidden power Ice. If I win the speed tie and hit first, then the opposing Roserade loses 65% of its HP. I have no fear of toxic spikes, since Roserade can always come back in and take them off the field. I will usually switch into Tyranitar if my own Roserade has been put to sleep.
Heatran - Put to sleep. Set up toxic spikes. Switch accordingly to when it wakes up.
Gliscor - HP Ice
Dragonite - HP Ice
Bronzong - Sleep Powder
Smeargle - Sleep Powder
Aerodactyl - HP Ice twice so as not to lose Special Attack. They generally taunt and then set up their rocks before they faint.
Machamp - Straight for the Leaf Storm, as most carry the Lum Berry. This does around 70%, and after the Substitute they are at <5%. From there, I go to Rotom-H to take the dynamic punch, and Ttar to take the Payback. Sandstorm activates, and finishes off the last sliver of their HP.
Infernape - Switch to Tyranitar on the Fake Out/Fire Blast. EQ for the KO. Most people don't want to risk me being a Dragon Dance one and stay in with ape, and I take it out early.

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Rotom-H @ Leftovers (Levitate)
Timid: 120HP/200SPAtk/188Speed

  • Substitute
  • ThunderBolt
  • Shadow Ball
  • Hidden Power [Fighting]
Hits 280 Speed to outpace Adamant Lucario.

This is my own Rotom set, and I am so proud of it! The bane of Rotom's existance is
Tyranitar and Scizor. Pursuit is nothing fun to be hit by, especially since I'm not some
BOLD 252/252 set. So I came up with this set while shoddying, and it has worked perfectly.
Oh, and he spin blocks.

Simply send it in on a choiced pokemon, or something slow that can be damaged and
would not want to risk getting hit. The crux of this set is Substitute. After Stealth Rocks,
the ever present Scizor is 2hKO by a Thunderbolt, and they will never 2hKO me with a
Banded Bullet Punch.

Once I get the substitute up, it becomes a checkmate position for Tyranitar. Hidden
Power Fighting is always a 2hKo - which means that the opponent must choose to lock
themself into either Crunch or Pursuit in order to beat Rotom-H. Scarf Tyranitar, one
of the newest trends, loves taking on Rotom-H. If it locks itself into Crunch and
outspeeds me, I know it is Scarfed and I can switch approriately. If it uses Pursuit in
an effort to trap me, I take 50% from a Scarf Jolly Pursuit without switching.

This means that I can use Substitute, hit Tyranitar with a Hidden Power Fighting, and
then make my choice without risk. Pursuit will never KO me even after Stealth Rocks,
Sandstorm, and a Substitute damage.

Wil-o-wisp?!?

  • Since my team utilizes Toxic-Spikes, I decided that Wil-o-wisp wasn't as useful for things like Swampert or Tyranitar that I would normally Wisp. Sure, I miss it sometimes if my Toxic spikes are gone, but in general this set has been the most efficient Rotom set for this team.
The HP investment ensures that Swampert + Blissey will NEVER break my substitutes with Icebeam. [Or Tbolt/Flamethrower for Blissey] This allows an extra turn of Toxic Spikes to wittle away health, and I can beat Blissey 1on1. Swampert as well, if it lacks Roar.


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Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf (Sand Stream)
Jolly: 252Atk/252Speed/4HP

  • Crunch
  • Earthquake
  • Pursuit
  • Stone Edge
If you can't beat em, join em. The usage of Scarf tyranitar as an end-game to most
special sweepers, namely Starmie/Latias/Azelf/Gengar, has skyrocketed in the past months.
That is exactly what I use Tyranitar for as well. It's ability to check the biggest
Special Powerhouses allow me to set up my two sweeper pokemon in order to
take out the opponent.

Crunch is obvious, as it is the strongest Dark move he can use. Pursuit is for Gengar,
as it will almost always OHKO regardless of a switch with Sandstorm and Stealth
Rocks up. I also use it on Starmie, Latias, and Azelf who are at about 70% HP, as it
generally KOs switch or no switch.

Stone Edge is Tyranitar's strongest move, and STAB 150 Power move with a high Crit
Ratio is dangerous. I generally use it when scouting, as it does decent damage to a
good sized portion of the metagame as well as not locking myself into a
risky Earthquake. Earthquake was chosen to hit Jirachi beter, although
I'm considering Superpower.

260_swampert_1_m.png

Swampert @ Leftovers (Torrent)
Relaxed: 252HP, 44SpAtk, 210Def, 4Speed

  • Earthquake
  • Ice Beam
  • Stealth Rocks
  • Hydro Pump
Swampert. The physicall wall. First off, 4 speed EVs is simply to outpace other mud-like
fish. (Seriously, wtf is this thing :naughty: ) Ice Beam and Earthquake create a solid Ice/Ground combination which is rarely resisted, and allows me to hit Heatran/Infernape/Gliscor/Jirachi/Tyranitar/Latias .. and the list goes on. Hydro Pump may seem like an odd move, but with my SpAtk investment it does a sizeable chunk to numerous Pokemon, such as Rotom-H, Machamp, other Swampert, Rhyperior?!

Roar?

  • I do lack a phazer, so Roar is something I've considered. I just really enjoy the unexpected power of Hydro Pump. It allows an easier time when predicting as well. For example, if the opponent sends out a Heatran, and I sent out Swampert, I can Hydro Pump as they switch into Rotom predicting the EQ, and take out ~45% of their Hp. [With Stealth Rocks]
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Jirachi @ Leftovers (Serene Grace)
Timid: 252SpAtk/252Speed/4HP

  • Thunderbolt
  • Flash Cannon
  • Psychic
  • Calm Mind
Jirachi is usually seen as a bulky Calm Minder. After Megan_Fox's run with a successful
Bulky Bold Wish Jirachi, it has caught on as a staple for many teams. This Jirachi is
not like that Jirachi.

Calm Mind Jirachi's usual counters include: Heatran, Swampert, Tyranitar, CM Latias,
Gliscor. I might have missed some, but its 1am :naughty:

Swampert takes about 37% from a non-boosted Psychic. After a Calm Mind, it takes
about 56% from the Psychic. It fails to KO back with Earthquake. This means that
with the help of Toxic Spikes [And sometimes without] it is able to beat one of its
major counters. Tyranitar is in the same boat, except I have a STAB super effective move.

Heatran is somewhat of a problem, since Thunderbolt at +1 deals only about 41%.
However, I have 3 Fire Resists on my team, so I'm not too worried about that.
Gliscor is in the same boat as Swampert, who fails to OHKo me while I can 2hKo it.
Latias is somewhat of a problem - if I can get 2 Calm Minds up before it comes in,
I can generally take it out. Otherwise, I got Tyranitar!

The unexpectedness of this Jirachi is what aids in its Sweeping Potential. People
switch in MixMence, and I win the speed tie and take them out in one hit. They send in
Tyranitar, hoping to wall me, and are 2hKo by a Flash Cannon. The main selling point
of this set is the fact that it allows me to utilize three attacks, still have Calm Mind,
and still hit hard without set-up.

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Suicune @ Leftovers (Pressure)
Timid: 28Hp/228Speed/252SpAtk

  • Calm Mind
  • Surf
  • Hidden Power [Electric]
  • Ice Beam
Offensive Suicune. AHHHMazing. The Evs allow me to outpace Lucario, Heatran,
Mamoswine, and Jolly Max Speed Gyarados. After Stealth Rocks and Sandstorm,
standard Bulky Gyara is OhKod. Ice Beam OHKOs offensive Breloom after Stealth Rock
damage without any kind of boost. I can easily beat Non-Roar Vaporeon's 1on1,
since Toxic Spikes wittle down its health while I set up Calm Mind's on its
unboosted Hidden Power.

This is basically the clean-up. The Fire types that Jirachi attempts to set up on,
like Heatran, can be beaten by Suicune - albeit it can't switch in too often
without Rest. It beats Scarf Tyranitar, as Crunch only does about 34%,
and surives a Naive +1 DDmence Non-Life Orb Outrage 100% of the time.
Lum Berry >_>

Essentially, this team needs some kind of help. All of those bulky pokemon that can
set up provide it with problems that are difficult to play around. Curselax scares the
shit out of me, thankfully I haven't seen to many. Suicune vs Crocune comes
down to a Crit, while I usually lose to Blissey if I don't have Toxic Spikes on the field.

Final Notes

The sheer surprise factor of the last two pokemon netted me numerous kills.
The synergy between the team also assisted in taking down offensive teams,
as I usually had counters for this thing. I'm aware I only have a Dragon resist,
and a frail one at that. But I've been able to play around it, and this team
has been quite successful. I appreciate that you read this whole thing. Put a
bit of work into it I guess. Thanks!
 
I really don't see how you're beating Blissey. Any Blissey with Aromatherapy can simply stall out this team, with Tyranitar being the only thing that can really take it out individually. Additionally, nothing on your team can take on Mixmence well, since nothing can really switch into a Draco Meteor + Earthquake / Fire Blast / Brick Break.

The most simple fix for this is to change Jirachi to a bulky CM Wish variant. Not only does this set beat Blissey for sure, but you also gain a decent switch into Draco Meteors. You don't want Suicune taking too much damage from any of Salamence's attacks. You could also opt for Rest on Suicune over probably Hidden Power Electric, but that opens your Gyarados weakness further. The new Jirachi with an EV spread of 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Speed seems like a better fit for this team IMO.

Also, definitely consider Roar over Hydro Pump on Swampert. You should almost always get Toxic Spikes up, meaning stuff like opposing Swampert and Machamp should be poisoned and therefore easier to take out. Phazing is crucial in a metagame today full of stat-uppers as an emergency action.
 
Cooltrainer said:
Rotom-H @ Leftovers (Levitate)
Timid: 108HP/152Speed/248SpAtk
Substitute
ThunderBolt
Shadow Ball
Hidden Power [Fighting]

Hits 280 Speed to outpace Adamant Lucario.

The HP investment ensures that Swampert + Blissey will NEVER break my substitutes with Icebeam. [Or Tbolt/Flamethrower for Blissey]
Click to expand...

A minimum of 188 Speed EVs, along with a Timid nature, are required to outspeed Adamant Lucario -- 152 EVs don't suffice.

(20.90% - 25.00%) is the damage that neutral natured Swampert (0 SpA EVs) scores with Ice Beam to the Rotom you're using. The Blissey that uses 104 Special Attack EVs deals a similar amount of damage, meaning that they both have a chance of breaking the Substitute. So taking into account both details (outspeeding Adamant Lucario and the Substitute resistance), I suggest using the following spread instead: 112 HP / 208 SpA / 188 Spe. This one ensures that Rotom-H will always outspeed neutral natured Lucario, and it also gives Substitute enough strength to remain untouched after having received an Ice Beam from standard Swampert.

On the other hand, there are two main problems that I perceive. The first being Salamence and his bestial Draco Meteors, while the second is that your team is not prepared to take on CB Tyranitar's Crunches. In both cases, you'll find yourself playing around to get an opportunity to offset these issues. As for Mix. Salamence, what you can do is invest more EVs into Jirachi's HP -- perhaps adding Wish to the set would be a plausible idea as well. However, having to resort to the main sweeper of the team in order to put a temporal stop to an opposing sweeper isn't precisely great, though it does work.
In reference to Tyranitar and Crunch, something you can do is make Swampert a full physical support Pokémon with 252 Defense EVs. That way Swampert will be able to take a Crunch slightly better. Roar is another change I'd do on Swampert, in order to combat set up users such as CM Jirachi and CM Suicune. Your own Tyranitar is the only Pokémon on the team who is capable of taking on opposing Tyranitar's Crunches, so play wisely with it.

These are probably the best recommendations you can get without having to twist the team or at least replace a member of it. Good team overall, gl.
 
Post by Calus

Congratulations on hitting 15th :).

Roserade + Swampert get hazards up against almost every lead and because you are running ScarfTar you manage to beat every common lead. Abot Hydro Pump on Swampert. Hydro Pump used to be useful for hitting Skarmory, but these days Skarm run a significant SpDef investment. If you look at what you say it hits, Machamp is hurt harder with Quake. You have no reason to stay in on Rotom so Hydro Pump is useless. Other Swampert are set up fodder for Rade and Rotom and Rhyperior is never seen. You should decide to run Roar as whether you notice you are extremely open to CurseLax and it can 6-0 you, even if it is never seen. Roar is useful for building up residual damage and phazing Cune and co.

Jirachi is cool, but have you ever considered Grass Knot over Flash Cannon. A +1 Grass Knot does loads to Swampert and still hits Tyranitar just as hard as Flash Cannon. Grass Knot hits Suicune slightly harder than TBolt so can be useful. Grass Knot lets you hurt Hippowdon too, which although rare, is still a threat.

Just a few ideas. Im from serebii too ;].
Click to expand...

Roar seems like a decent option over Hydro Pump. It hits Skarmory, but yeah, you're right. They're pretty much specially defensive. I think I'll switch to Roar to avoid Curselax sweep, as well as to stop the momentum of CM Cune/Latias/Jirachi.

Post by Twist of Fate

really don't see how you're beating Blissey. Any Blissey with Aromatherapy can simply stall out this team, with Tyranitar being the only thing that can really take it out individually. Additionally, nothing on your team can take on Mixmence well, since nothing can really switch into a Draco Meteor + Earthquake / Fire Blast / Brick Break.

The most simple fix for this is to change Jirachi to a bulky CM Wish variant. Not only does this set beat Blissey for sure, but you also gain a decent switch into Draco Meteors. You don't want Suicune taking too much damage from any of Salamence's attacks. You could also opt for Rest on Suicune over probably Hidden Power Electric, but that opens your Gyarados weakness further. The new Jirachi with an EV spread of 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Speed seems like a better fit for this team IMO.

Also, definitely consider Roar over Hydro Pump on Swampert. You should almost always get Toxic Spikes up, meaning stuff like opposing Swampert and Machamp should be poisoned and therefore easier to take out. Phazing is crucial in a metagame today full of stat-uppers as an emergency action.
Click to expand...

Second time its been mentioned, so it must be useful. I'll stick with Roar and that way I can go with a full bulky 252/252spread. About Salamence .. I guess there's a reason its going Suspect since maybe 3-4 Pokemon can switch into 2 of its attacks. But the Wish CM Rachi looks solid, and it will allow me to beat Blissey 1on1. I lose some momentum, but I'll work it out. Thanks Jak :)

Post by Setsuna
A minimum of 188 Speed EVs, along with a Timid nature, are required to outspeed Adamant Lucario -- 152 EVs don't suffice.

(20.90% - 25.00%) is the damage that neutral natured Swampert (0 SpA EVs) scores with Ice Beam to the Rotom you're using. The Blissey that uses 104 Special Attack EVs deals a similar amount of damage, meaning that they both have a chance of breaking the Substitute. So taking into account both details (outspeeding Adamant Lucario and the Substitute resistance), I suggest using the following spread instead: 112 HP / 208 SpA / 188 Spe. This one ensures that Rotom-H will always outspeed neutral natured Lucario, and it also gives Substitute enough strength to remain untouched after having received an Ice Beam from standard Swampert.

On the other hand, there are two main problems that I perceive. The first being Salamence and his bestial Draco Meteors, while the second is that your team is not prepared to take on CB Tyranitar's Crunches. In both cases, you'll find yourself playing around to get an opportunity to offset these issues. As for Mix. Salamence, what you can do is invest more EVs into Jirachi's HP -- perhaps adding Wish to the set would be a plausible idea as well. However, having to resort to the main sweeper of the team in order to put a temporal stop to an opposing sweeper isn't precisely great, though it does work.
In reference to Tyranitar and Crunch, something you can do is make Swampert a full physical support Pokémon with 252 Defense EVs. That way Swampert will be able to take a Crunch slightly better. Roar is another change I'd do on Swampert, in order to combat set up users such as CM Jirachi and CM Suicune. Your own Tyranitar is the only Pokémon on the team who is capable of taking on opposing Tyranitar's Crunches, so play wisely with it.

These are probably the best recommendations you can get without having to twist the team or at least replace a member of it. Good team overall, gl.
Click to expand...

I appologize, the Rotom-H's EV spread is off, I looked at a wrong team. The EV spread on my real Rotom is 120HP/200SPAtk/188Speed. So yeah, not too far off from the one you suggested.

You, just like Twist, suggested the Wish Rachi. I guess that's what I'll be switching to.

Thanks for the rate.
 
sup alex, since most was already mentioned already not much to say but here goes

i would first off use superpower on ttar. i like eq more but ur team really calls for better ways to take on blissy.

second of all, like tof and setsuna said, wish support on jirachi would be extremly useful because you will need jirachi to take stuff like dmeters from mixmence and stuff in the sort. your current rachi cant take the hit as well nor does it have the ability to recover. im sure the lose in offensive momentum will hinder you so if u dont wanna then atleast use grassknot > flashcannon. grassknot OHKO's swampert after +1 and hits suicune harder than tbolt while flash cannon doesnt really add anything to the table
 
Just some minour nitpicks, you should probably run Roar on Swampert, to abuse Toxic Spikes to their fullest, and because Hydro Pump looks kinda useless. Also, Wish would be ideal on that Jirachi to help heal things without recovery (cough cough Swampert).

Blissey is a whore to this team, as she walls outright your two main sweepers- you should probably have a way to stop her. Some ideas I have would be giving Tyranitar Superpower over Earthquake, or maybe making your rotom a trick-scarfer.

I know, most of these have already been posted, I apologize.
 
Any decent stall team will destroy you. Especially since alot of them carry tentacreul/roserade + blissey. Yes ttar beats her but he is compley walled by bulky grounds and scarf pursuit is doing shit damage. I really dont know how to fix this since the whole theam of the team is toxic spikes + special sweepers. I have toyed around with a dugtio+special sweeper team and it worked pretty well, so you can try him if you want (over roserade).
 
Hi,

I recieved your message, so I'll try to find some things you could improve.
This is definitely a very good team already. Also there have been some quite helpful posts above I think. However I will try to give you some further help, focusing on the issues you mentioned in the original post.
Okay, there are undoubtedly a few problems your team has. The first one is the fact that Roserade will often not be able to get down 2 layers of TSpikes. As a suicide lead it will probably die very early so a simple Tentacruel switch later by your opponent basically screws everything you've achieved. Also Blissey is kinda unbeatable for you if you don't have two TSpikes layers down. Especially if it's a cleric and TTar is down, it's pretty much gg. I also see your weakness to CurseLax, Crocune, CursePert, and other bulky set uppers. So let's see what you could do.

First of all, I would definitely use Roar over Hydro Pump on Swampert. This will greatly help you combat Curse Pert, Lax and Crocune and it will also be a safe solution against Baton Pass teams (which can actually give you trouble). Hydro Pump is a good move but EQ, Ice Beam, Stealth Rocks and Roar are just too important to give up. If you choose to drop it, you won't need the SpAtk investment any more, so I would put it into Defense in order to handle DD Salamence and other physical threats better.

Second, in order to deal with most Ttar, Blissey and Snorlax better, I would definitely use Superpower over EQ on Scarf Tar. Your team does not feature a fighting move at all, which is not acceptable imo. A strong Earthquake that deals with CM Jirachi is already provided by Swampert, so I think dropping it on Ttar won't hurt too much.

This leads me to a further problem, namely the absence of a fire move in your team. Scizor can be checked by Rotom most of the time but Forretress will have the time to freely set up three layers of Spikes and Toxic Spikes, which will absolutely ruin your team without a Spinner. Especially Specially defensive Variants will be a problem, as a 3hko is the best any move in your team will be able to achieve. Therefore you should maybe give Overheat on Rotom a try. Shadow Ball seems to be the most replacable move as Tyranitar already provides you with a very reliable way of dealing with Psychics and Ghosts. WoW is also an option over HP because it will still severely cripple Tyranitar but I think you will get problems with Heatran then. So HP seems to be okay, but WoW is always an option.

Jirachi: I agree with some of the posts above that a Wish CM Jirachi would probably be a better idea for your team than your present set. Although I really like the surprise factor of your 3 attack set, I think Wish support and a more defensive EV spread will help more, especially against Salamence who spam Draco Meteor. Also it will always beat Blissey one on one (although Thunder Wave can be bothersome). This set should work:
Jirachi@Leftovers
Timid-252HP, 220Def, 36Spe
-Psychic
-Calm Mind
-Wish
-Thunderbolt
I chose Psychic over Flash Cannon because your team should be able to handle Flash Cannons targets (Tyranitar, Latias, Celebi) better than Psychics (Swampert, Machamp).
I chose the bulkier EV spread in order to take hits better but a spread of 252HP, 80Def, 176Spe should also work, if you feel like outspeeding Lucario.

Your Suicune set is fine, although your Speed calculations are wrong. It will need 232 Spe EVs to reach 290. You should fix that, as a lost speed tie can cost you a game.

Roserade: Toxic Spikes are very important for your team. Usually this Roserade should be able to lay them down most of the time but in case you feel it doesn't, you could maybe try a bulkier Spread (252HP instead of SpAtk for example). Other option could be Lefties over Sash? Maybe even using Swampert in the lead slot in order to have Rosey around till late game? Or Rest over HP Ice?... I don't really know if that works but it actually could. I just feel you can need Roserade throughout a whole match due to its ability to absorb TSpikes, lay down TSpikes and severely blow Swampert and Suicune. Maybe you should try it out at least.

Solid team. I hope I could help though. Good Luck !
 
Bump.

@ Aircraft Cemetary - Superpower is a must. Not really sure where I can fit a fire move, I dont mind Rotom w\o one. Besides that, I think that it will be difficult to switch to a Swampert lead. I feel like I lose the momentum with Roserade. I enjoy only losing to like 2-3 leads, because I have like 3 fire resists on this team. [Infernape is really the only lead I cannot deal with, besides Scarf Rachi.]

But I guess I could test it and have Rose stick around longer with a bulkier set. Thanks again for the suggestions.
 
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