Crux
Banned deucer.
http://www.bju.edu/
8th grade science textbook published by religious nutjobs probs not the best source, ey?
8th grade science textbook published by religious nutjobs probs not the best source, ey?
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Serious Evolution/Creation debate
- Thread starter Pappy777
- Start date
"Religious nutjobs" is a little overdoing it. If the atheists are allowed to use purposely secular sources, why can I not do the same for a purposely Christian source?
You should probably try to convince your parents to send you to a real school. The sooner the better.
I'm sorry, but how on earth is not having your argument based in religious or spiritual a background, which is what "secular sources" means, the same as having an argument based in a religious / spiritual one?
edit: forgot to put in the word argument which lead to that dumbfuckery of a reply
Also, as for your source, I hardly consider a grade 8 textbook from a school that was considered a diploma mill up until the early 2000's, was founded by a dude who considered academic accreditation for a university to be unneeded, wouldn't allow black people to enroll up until 1971, wouldn't allow married black people in until 1975, wouldn't allow interracial dating until 2000, is a firm advocate of young-earth creationism, holds the position that evolution is "at best an unsupportable and unworkable hypothesis", and had no faculty that held a degree in geology up until 2008 to be a good source for a texbook on fucking biology.
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If you're trying to imply that I am mentally challenged, please stop. I have a list of achievements and test scores that show my intelligence is far above average, more so than any public or private school average.
Excuse me? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/secular
Read 1 & 2. Then please learn vocabulary.
Your source must be amazing. Care to give it? I see no where that any of you have quoted these sources that prove me wrong.
The current president of BJU, from the source you posted said that he'd "never been more proud of my dad than the night he...lifted that policy."
This directly shows that the current book is not based upon racism any more than atheism is because several leading atheist scholars held it as showing the white race's superiority.
Ahh k, I missed the word "argument" in my sentence. Evidently, you couldn't infer that "'not being rooted in a religious / spiritual background' is what secular argument means" is what I meant, but whatever...
also, I'm assuming you have access to jstor because you're a genius / better than the average person, so i'm providing some sources which discuss the nuances of evolution, from a reputable and prestigious publication The Quarterly Review of Biology published by the University of Chicago press, and not a middle school textbook, because seriously what the fuck? There are middle school history textbooks that still say that people widely believed in a geocentric model of the solar system during the renaissance.
1. Evolution of Aging and Death: What Insights Bacteria Can Provide
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.10...2&uid=70&uid=3737720&uid=4&sid=21105251610963
Basically this article looks at how the systems of aging evolved throughout time, which is why different species age at different rates, and so on.
2. Human Evolutionary Biology
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.10...2&uid=70&uid=3737720&uid=4&sid=21105251610963
Discusses how human biology has evolved over time
3. Darwinian Populations and Natural Selection
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.10...2&uid=70&uid=3737720&uid=4&sid=21105251610963
How natural selection occurs throughout species populations
You know what I don't ever find in any reputable publications? Papers saying that evolution is wrong, it's bullshit, fuck this lets go home. Why? Because there hasn't been a credible argument against it. You don't get a 95%~ consensus on something by a bunch of geniuses that all think they're smarter than one another without having an incredibly solid argument.
edit: also sorry if ya'll don't have JSTOR access, i'll try and find free versions of the links for ya'll tomorrow.
I am literally about to laugh out loud. The University of Chicago? The website that
"Barack Obama'sWhite House Task Force to Protect Students from Sexual Assault publicly named the University of Chicago as one of many higher education institutions under investigation by the Office of Civil Rights 'for possible violations of federal law over the handling of sexual violence and harassment complaints.' "
A federal crime a lot more recent than BJU's racism is obviously less important. Please don't argue my sources away while your sources are committing more recent felonies rather than not being up to code a decade and a half ago.
"Barack Obama'sWhite House Task Force to Protect Students from Sexual Assault publicly named the University of Chicago as one of many higher education institutions under investigation by the Office of Civil Rights 'for possible violations of federal law over the handling of sexual violence and harassment complaints.' "
A federal crime a lot more recent than BJU's racism is obviously less important. Please don't argue my sources away while your sources are committing more recent felonies rather than not being up to code a decade and a half ago.
no statement by anyone would demonstrate that an unrelated book is or is not racist, although a long history of weird racist and sexist policies would be strong indication, this is a problem for secular white ppl too i agree. also compare how often bju produced scholarship is cited in peer reviewed journals versus uchi
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So, as a practicing scientist (3rd year PhD student, molecular neuroscience) and a Christian, these topics always make me sad, because they inevitably go like this:
Poorly informed/undereducated Christian "Evolution is bullshit because blah blah blah"
Every reasonably well-educated/sane person on the planet "Man all these Christians are friggin crazy"
Thus these Christians, whose job it is to bring others to Christ, end up driving people away by making unreasonable arguments. It drives me nuts ><. As for the argument, I'll make a few points
1) So lets say you're God, and you want to create mankind, how do you go about doing this? One totally feasible way would be to place the building blocks on primordial earth, allowing the process of evolution to direct the development of the world you see around you today.
2) I have read the bible cover to cover, including several religious studies courses in college (which I suspect is more than can be said for most Christians who support the creationist viewpoint), and one has to make a distinction between biblical FACT and biblical PARABLE. Certain verses in the bible were meant to be taken literally (the various laws of morality, like the ten commandments, are a good example of this), and certain verses are meant as stories which convey a certain message but are not meant to read as actual historical fact (for example, the parable of Jesus and the prostitute in John 7:53. Biblical scholars generally agree that this scene never actually happened, but was included in the book as a story to show how Christians are called to forgive those who have sinned). In the same way, the book of genesis reads like a parable. It is telling us that God is responsible for the creation of all we see; that we're all children of God. If you read it literally, like a book of science, then you're going to have to deal with the insane amount of paradoxes present in the bible, which is something biblical scholars still haven't been able to resolve.
3) You can literally witness evolution within 24 hours in a lab setting. Take a homogenous colony of bacteria (without antibiotic resistance), and gradually introduce antibiotics to the media, you're going to end up with a ton of antibiotic resistant bacteria. This is because the bacteria are going to develop mutations as they grow, and one of those mutations is going to give them antibiotic resistance. This lucky bacteria is going to be able to survive in the antibiotic media, while all his sibling bacteria die off. The lucky resistant bacteria is going to divide without a care in the world, and eventually you're going to have a flask full of antibiotic resistant bacteria, #evolution.
I mean for cryin out loud even the Pope has said evolution is perfectly compatible with the Christian God, what more do you want?
Poorly informed/undereducated Christian "Evolution is bullshit because blah blah blah"
Every reasonably well-educated/sane person on the planet "Man all these Christians are friggin crazy"
Thus these Christians, whose job it is to bring others to Christ, end up driving people away by making unreasonable arguments. It drives me nuts ><. As for the argument, I'll make a few points
1) So lets say you're God, and you want to create mankind, how do you go about doing this? One totally feasible way would be to place the building blocks on primordial earth, allowing the process of evolution to direct the development of the world you see around you today.
2) I have read the bible cover to cover, including several religious studies courses in college (which I suspect is more than can be said for most Christians who support the creationist viewpoint), and one has to make a distinction between biblical FACT and biblical PARABLE. Certain verses in the bible were meant to be taken literally (the various laws of morality, like the ten commandments, are a good example of this), and certain verses are meant as stories which convey a certain message but are not meant to read as actual historical fact (for example, the parable of Jesus and the prostitute in John 7:53. Biblical scholars generally agree that this scene never actually happened, but was included in the book as a story to show how Christians are called to forgive those who have sinned). In the same way, the book of genesis reads like a parable. It is telling us that God is responsible for the creation of all we see; that we're all children of God. If you read it literally, like a book of science, then you're going to have to deal with the insane amount of paradoxes present in the bible, which is something biblical scholars still haven't been able to resolve.
3) You can literally witness evolution within 24 hours in a lab setting. Take a homogenous colony of bacteria (without antibiotic resistance), and gradually introduce antibiotics to the media, you're going to end up with a ton of antibiotic resistant bacteria. This is because the bacteria are going to develop mutations as they grow, and one of those mutations is going to give them antibiotic resistance. This lucky bacteria is going to be able to survive in the antibiotic media, while all his sibling bacteria die off. The lucky resistant bacteria is going to divide without a care in the world, and eventually you're going to have a flask full of antibiotic resistant bacteria, #evolution.
I mean for cryin out loud even the Pope has said evolution is perfectly compatible with the Christian God, what more do you want?
I think you just need to clarify you believe evolution could happen. A hominid into a human is not possible over the timeframe given by the Bible. Overall, you seem to be adding to a few of my main points. I'm glad to see we can agree on some things. Other responses are in BOLD.
Are you serious? Evolution is adaptation. Taxonomy--the labeling and delineation of different species--is an arbitrary exercise undertaken by the very same scientists who you so vehemently disagree with when it comes to their own views on evolution. The only measures we have for "accurately" performing taxonomy rest on the very mechanisms (DNA sequencing) upon which evolution rests.
This quotation is probably the best possible outcome of this thread.
Cresselia~~
Junichi Masuda likes this!!
I completely feel for you.
It's usually the badly informed Christians that are painting a bad name.
There's nothing wrong with micro evolution from a religious point of view.
Even for macro evolution, people have to understand that Genesis shouldn't be treated word to word.
I would personally blame fundamentalists for bringing up all these arguments.
They refuse to accept that Genesis is not history, simply because Paul said "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction," (2 Timothy 3:16)
Ｂｕｔ ｔｈｅｙ ｆａｉｌ ｔｏ ｕｎｄｅｒｓｔａｎｄ ２ ｔｈｉｎｇｓ－－
Ｆｉｒｓｔｌｙ， Ｐａｕｌ’ｓ ｂｉｂｌｅ ｉｓ ｄｅｆｉｎｉｔｅｌｙ ｄｉｆｆｅｒｅｎｔ ｆｒｏｍ ｏｕｒｓ。
Ｓｅｃｏｎｄｌｙ， ａｇａｉｎ， ｎｏ ｏｎｅ ｋｎｅｗ ｗｈａｔ ｔｈｅ Ｇｒｅｅｋ ｗｏｒｄ ｍｅａｎｔ， ｉｔ ｉｓ ａ ｃｏｍｂｏ ｗｏｒｄ ｂｅｔｗｅｅｎ Ｇｏｄ ａｎｄ Ｗｉｎｄ／ ｂｒｅａｔｈｅ。
Ｐｅｏｐｌｅ ｇｕｅｓｓｅｄ ｉｔ ｍｅａｎｔ ｉｎｓｐｉｒａｔｉｏｎ。
Ｐｅｏｐｌｅ ｊｕｓｔ ｇｅｔ ｉｎｔｏ ｔｒｏｕｂｌｅ ｗｈｅｎ ｔｈｅｙ ｄｏｎ’ｔ ｕｎｄｅｒｓｔａｎｄ ｔｈｅ ｂｉｂｌｅ ｐｒｏｐｅｒｌｙ！
（Ｓｏｒｒｙ ｆｏｒ ｆｕｎｎｙ ｆｏｎｔ。 Ｄｏｎ’ｔ ｋｎｏｗ ｈｏｗ ｔｏ ｆｉｘ ｉｔ）
The bible and evolution are by no means exempt from each-other. Besides, creationism is only about half a century old, so you have to wonder how christians went so long without that ideology of creationism.
They extensively thought it through. The roman catholic church's official stance is that the seven days and other time frames are all metaphorical for a much longer time ( in gods pov, a day could be much longer because he perceives time so much faster because he's immortal). Essentially this means that he could have made humans in a process we know as evolution that took course over millions of years, but is referred to as days. Imo the best stance on the subject a christian can take.
They extensively thought it through. The roman catholic church's official stance is that the seven days and other time frames are all metaphorical for a much longer time ( in gods pov, a day could be much longer because he perceives time so much faster because he's immortal). Essentially this means that he could have made humans in a process we know as evolution that took course over millions of years, but is referred to as days. Imo the best stance on the subject a christian can take.
mattj
blatant Nintendo fanboy
I have no idea what you mean by "creationism is only about half a century old" when "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" and every other creation story is how many thousands of years old. The idea that common descent and Christianity can coexist is the new kid on the block.
jynx : No one guessed at the meaning of theopneumatos. It's a simple verb that combines theo and pneuma, two entirely common words. The combo word appears outside of the Bible in several contemporary works.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2315&t=KJV
No one had a problem understanding what the word meant until recently when religion got wishywashy.
If Genesis is not history, as it plainly says it is, the entirety of the Bible is a lie. It cannot hold any value. Genesis is an integral part of every book of the Bible all the way to Revelation. The best anyone who believes this kind of nonsense could say is "Well, it's wrong here, and it lies there, but it helps me feel good at night for some reason." How is that any better than any other work of fiction? How is that better than Harry Potter? How can that save your soul? It would be completely worthless.
The problem with Genesis isn't Genesis being taken literally. The problem with Genesis is a pervasive history of baseless traditions repeated by many Christian churches and teenage internet blowhards who sure do think they know what it says but can't be asked to actually read it.
jynx : No one guessed at the meaning of theopneumatos. It's a simple verb that combines theo and pneuma, two entirely common words. The combo word appears outside of the Bible in several contemporary works.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2315&t=KJV
No one had a problem understanding what the word meant until recently when religion got wishywashy.
If Genesis is not history, as it plainly says it is, the entirety of the Bible is a lie. It cannot hold any value. Genesis is an integral part of every book of the Bible all the way to Revelation. The best anyone who believes this kind of nonsense could say is "Well, it's wrong here, and it lies there, but it helps me feel good at night for some reason." How is that any better than any other work of fiction? How is that better than Harry Potter? How can that save your soul? It would be completely worthless.
The problem with Genesis isn't Genesis being taken literally. The problem with Genesis is a pervasive history of baseless traditions repeated by many Christian churches and teenage internet blowhards who sure do think they know what it says but can't be asked to actually read it.
Is this really the christian version of 'can't be assed/arsed.'
I love when people unintentionally hit the nail on the head.
Ha ha ha. You're highly insulting and proving your own ignorance. A 12 year old is not allowed to post hereor be in eighth grade.
I have read it, observed it, and applied it to my arguments. The sad part is those who try to argue with me can't. I'm not sure if they can find a Biblical or legitimate church official statement that says Genesis is not history. I feel that they should learn the Bible before they argue for it.
tl;dr: Don't argue for something you believe in if you don't believe and understand all of it.
The first paragraph is insane. Creationism is millennia old, not fifty years. Please research this before you post nonsensical, outright wrong facts.
In the Hebrew Bible, the words actually are closer to"And there was morning, and there was evening; and this was the third day." The only way this is possible is if the Roman Catholic Church has terrible translators. Also, please do not assume the Roman Catholic Church represents the Protestants, Orthodox, and nondenominational Christians.
I really can't respond to the rest of these as they basically all state that "if x is a lie, then 3x-4=12y is not correct at all." Please do not assume all Christians launch themselves into arguments without reasonable sources based upon a few mistruths represented by a minority of the Christians here.
Cresselia~~
Junichi Masuda likes this!!
Yes, the entirety of the bible is a lie.
The bible was selected by humans afterall.
They too, went through lots of arguments throughout the process.
There was nothing like a holy hand guiding them whatsoever.
However, even if you can discredit the entire bible, it does not prove that super natural entities do not exist.