Policy Review Evolution Project Rules Workshop

[eric the espeon]

I would like to suggest a few changes to the time line.

First I think that having a discussion then poll on that tier the Pokemon we should evolve if from is not needed. The idea of it is (From what I deduced from Doug's suggestion of it) to narrow down the number of possible Pokemon before voting on individual ones, therefore avoiding having a poll with ~400 Pokemon. I see that having a method to avoid such a poll is needed, however that method is not the best. People will simply vote to evolve something from the tier that the Poke they want to evolve is from.
This makes the poll counter productive IMO, by reducing the number of options on the poll by tier rather than popularity.

My suggestion to avoid these problems would be this:


1. Discussion of what Pokemon to evolve
Topic Leader Nominations

2. Pokemon Poll
Topic Leader Selection

The Discussion of what Pokemon to evolve would be a "Free for all" to some extent, any Pokemon could be suggested for evolution. Too keep it under some degree of control there would be the following rules:
1. Only one suggestion per person.
2. The TL, when they are elected, will go through the thread and pick out the most popular ideas (Maybe 5-10?) which would be put in the first poll.

This avoids the need to chose the tier and lets, say Farfech'd run directly against Absol or Tauros, or any other UU against NU rather than having all NUs running against all UUs and all BLs to have a chance to be on the poll.


Also we need to define exactly how Type and Movepool should work as they will be different from the normal CaP's.

 

[DougJustDoug]

The Discussion of what Pokemon to evolve would be a "Free for all" to some extent, any Pokemon could be suggested for evolution. Too keep it under some degree of control there would be the following rules:
1. Only one suggestion per person.
2. The TL, when they are elected, will go through the thread and pick out the most popular ideas (Maybe 5-10?) which would be put in the first poll.

The "Free for all" is exactly what we need to avoid. There is no reason to open a "discussion" thread on 400+ ideas. That's not a discussion, it's chaos. And remember, these EVO projects are going to be rife with fanboy ideas and concerns. If we open up the VERY FIRST discussion to every pokemon in the dex -- it will just be a nightmare. We need to kick the project off with something that will attempt to give the EVO project some semblance of competitive underpinnings.

My idea was intended to do two things:

1) Narrow the pool of pokemon, simply to reduce the madness of the "real" selection thread.

2) Create a competitive atmosphere for the EVO project, right from the outset. Since the first criteria would be based on metagame tiers, it introduces a somewhat competitive element.

Yes, eric, I agree that people will simply vote for the tier that contains their favorite pokemon. I agree that it might exclude some popular ideas somewhat arbitrarily. But, there is no way to objectively narrow down the field of choices, if we start with 400+ pokemon. To even attempt a discussion like that is silly, IMO. And to hold such a discussion at the very beginning of the project? Ugh. That would be a big PR mistake ("public relations", not "policy review"). Regular CAP projects have enough problems controlling concept discussions. Can you imagine the fanboy hurricane that will occur in an open cattle-call evolution discussion? No thanks....

 

[eric the espeon]

There are around 3-5 ideas that I have heard support for, even if we opened it up to all possible Pokemon I do not expect more than 10 to get significant support. Surely if there a way to get all the ideas with support into the first poll, rather than arbitrarily saying we must pick the tier that the Pokemon comes from first its would be better.
I know that an entirely "free for all" thread could look bad if it went the way you think it will, but even if we do pick a tier we still have a LOT of Pokemon to chose between, if its NU we still have to deal with ~100 Pokemon as options...

Narrowing it down to a tier does not solve the problem, the best way it to tackle it head on and let people make up their minds about what Pokemon they want to evolve.
We can place restraints on what Pokemon to discuss (No legends, No stage 3's, No NFEs (so no split evo lines for the first one), One idea per person.) which would help greatly to keep the thread on topic and avoid the more stupid/complicated suggestions.

Also I think that having a topic with a large number of Pokemon to discuss would not necessarily result in the discussion being any more uncompetitive or "fan boyish" than if we cut the number by selecting a tier.

If we let people discuss the possibility of evolving 300+ Pokemon, most of those Pokemon would not be discussed at all. People would pick out a few to talk about a lot, and maybe 30 or so would get a few posts about them. I don't think it would be any worse than say the Concept or BSS submission polls for CaP.

 

[tennisace]

I tried to design the polls to avoid that, but from what I can see, that kind of thread is inevitable with my current method. We should have a objective cut-off of what Pokemon are and aren't acceptable. First off, since there is no NU tier (save for the semi-unofficial one going on in Stark), NU shouldn't be an option. Second, I don't think we should evolve BLs. There really aren't many BL Pokemon that need an evolution, because they all are too powerful for UU. Therefore, UU should be the only tier to pick from. We must also narrow down the list of UU Pokemon, because thats still ~150 to choose from. So, Legendary Pokemon, NFEs, Third-stage Pokemon, and Fossil Pokemon are not eligible. We won't be doing split evos, legends don't evolve, and Fossils only evolve once (or in the case of Aerodactyl, not at all). Unown and Ditto are considered legends, just to make my life easier. Pokemon who have undergone a split evolution or have multiple forms are not eligible. All special evolutions are not eligible. Also, Solrock and Lunatone, along with Plusle and Minun, should they be chosen, would have to be done together.

We are left with this list of ~100 Pokemon:

Absol       
Altaria     
Arbok     
Ariados     
Banette     
Bibarel     
Cacturne     
Camerupt     
Carnivine     
Chatot 
Cherrim     
Claydol     
Corsola     
Crawdaunt     
Delcatty     
Delibird     
Dewgong     
Dodrio     
Drapion     
Drifblim     
Dunsparce     
Electrode     
Farfetch'd     
Fearow     
Furret     
Gastrodon     
Girafarig     
Golduck     
Granbull     
Grumpig     
Hypno     
Illumise^     
Jynx     
Kangaskhan     
Kecleon     
Kingler     
Kricketune     
Lanturn     
Lapras     
Ledian     
Linoone     
Lopunny     
Lumineon     
Lunatone*     
Luvdisc     
Magcargo     
Manectric     
Mantine     
Masquerain     
Mawile     
Mightyena     
Miltank     
Minun#     
Muk
Noctowl     
Octillery     
Pachirisu     
Parasect     
Pelipper     
Persian     
Plusle#
Primeape     
Purugly     
Quagsire     
Qwilfish     
Rapidash     
Raticate     
Relicanth     
Sableye     
Sandslash     
Seaking     
Seviper     
Sharpedo     
Shuckle     
Skuntank     
Solrock*     
Spinda     
Stantler     
Steelix     
Swalot     
Swellow     
Torkoal     
Toxicroak     
Tropius     
Venomoth     
Vespiquen     
Volbeat^     
Wailord     
Weezing     
Whiscash     
Xatu

*/#/^-These would be done together

Anything NOT on this list is ineligible. This saves time and cuts down on the poll.

Now, as for the thread, there isn't really a good way to do it. Personally, I think that it should be one submission only, backed up by solid reasoning, and an explanation of what an evolution would do for the metagame.

Ex.

I think we should evolve Xatu, its really bad and needs to get better, and its a really cool looking pokemon, so the art would be AMAZING.

There was absolutely no competitive reasoning in that post. It wouldn't be accepted.

I believe that we should evolve Xatu. It's a fast psychic sweeper, but its secondary typing, Flying, would help the metagame a lot. An evolution would possibly be able to revenge kill every current CAP, save Rockmon, using its STAB Psychic+Air Slash, in addition to the Hidden Power of it's choice. It can also run a support moveset with it's (soon to be) decent defenses and myriad of resistances, including the 4x Fighting resist that would make this a perfect Revenankh revenge killer.

Ahhh much better. The Pokemon in question was bolded, and there were many reasons backing up his/her choice. There was a detailed explanation of what an evolution would bring to the metagame. This post would be accepted.

It looks like it would be trouble, but if the mods can keep their thumb on it, and delete the posts like the bad example, then we should be fine.

Edit: Fixed the list, removing all special evos.

 

[Nasty Pass]

tennis, you left Pidgeot on the list; it's a third stage Pokemon.

 

[eric the espeon]

First off, since there is no NU tier (save for the semi-unofficial one going on in Stark), NU shouldn't be an option.

Have you read some of the Mod's replys in that thread? Its not even close to official... So I agree with that.

Second, I don't think we should evolve BLs. There really aren't many BL Pokemon that need an evolution

Nothing needs and evolution, and if we evolve a BL I am sure it would become a lot more usable. Sure we would have to be more careful about what we give it as it will already be decently powerful, but that's no reason to exclude all BLs from the EVO project.

because they all are too powerful for UU.

I think that this is VERY poor reasoning.
They are too strong for UU, therefore we can't evolve them and aim for a totally different tier, OU?


There are 55 Pokemon in the BL tier. Out of them the following would be eligible:

Abomnasnow
Donphan
Floatzel
Hariyama
Houndoom
Marowak
Pinsir
Smeargle
Tauros
Ursaring
Zangoose

That is 11.
I see no harm in adding 11 Pokemon to a list of ~100, and we should not take any options away from the voters without very solid reasoning.

Also I remember there being some support for a Pinsir EVO at some point, so its not like no one wants to evolve them.

Everything else in your post I agree with you totally, other than this

Unown and Ditto are considered legends, just to make my life easier.

Which we discussed on the server, and is very unimportant.


Edit:

tennis, you left Pidgeot on the list; it's a third stage Pokemon.

Good point, also Walrien should be removed (I checked, that should be it).

Edit 2: Removed the following as they ether evolve with a Stone or by Lv. Up with move:
Ambipom
Arcanine
Exeggutor
Lickylicky
Mismagius
Tangrowth

 

[tennisace]

BLs can already function in OU, so why evolve them? Fixed the list.

 

[eric the espeon]

The BL tier is not a list of Pokemon that work in OU.
It is a ban list from UU which is a very different metagame, and should not be used to determine a Pokemon's need for an upgrade.

Edit: Should we remove Stone evolutions then? What about Lv up with move evolutions?

 

[tennisace]

The BL tier is not a list of Pokemon that work in OU.
It is a ban list from UU which is a very different metagame, and should not be used to determine a Pokemon's need for an upgrade.

BL consists of Pokemon who are OU but dropped to BL, and Pokemon who are too powerful for UU. We can't feasibly separate the two groups, so why bother with the whole mess, unless you can come up with an arbitrary method.

Edit: Should we remove Stone evolutions then? What about Lv up with move evolutions?

Way ahead of you.

 

[the_artic_one]

BLs can already function in OU, so why evolve them? Fixed the list.

There are UU that can function in OU as well, this is not valid reasoning.

 

[eric the espeon]

BL consists of Pokemon who are OU but dropped to BL

Not all OUs would end up in BL if they dropped in usage. Tenta for example was UU but started being used, it was agreed by Smogon's high up that if Tenta was used less it would drop straight to UU.
And how many of the BLs have ever been in OU? Not many.

and Pokemon who are too powerful for UU.

Yes, too strong for a totally different tier than the one we are aiming for.

We can't feasibly separate the two groups, so why bother with the whole mess, unless you can come up with an arbitrary method.

Just let the whole lot in for voting.
If people think that a Pokemon is strong enough then they will not vote for it, and if they don't think it is but they are wrong then they will get out argued.

 

[tennisace]

Not all OUs would end up in BL if they dropped in usage. Tenta for example was UU but started being used, it was agreed by Smogon's high up that if Tenta was used less it would drop straight to UU.
And how many of the BLs have ever been in OU? Not many.

So what about Tentacruel? A bunch of BLs were OU actually, especially in early DP.

Yes, too strong for a totally different tier than the one we are aiming for.

And?

Just let the whole lot in for voting.
If people think that a Pokemon is strong enough then they will not vote for it, and if they don't think it is but they are wrong then they will get out argued.

You still haven't given me any objective reasoning of why they should be let into the poll, besides saying that they aren't powerful enough for OU.

 

[eric the espeon]

If there is no good reason to remove them from the poll they should be on it, simply to give the voters more choice. This obviously does not apply to Ubers and such because there are good reasons not to put them up as options.
Objective enough?

 

[tennisace]

If there is no good reason to remove them from the poll they should be on it, simply to give the voters more choice. This obviously does not apply to Ubers and such because there are good reasons not to put them up as options.
Objective enough?

Say I wanted to evolve Breloom. If we allow BLs, this idea will surely catch on with some of the more "fanboyish" members, which happen to compromise a majority. Now, as we all know, Breloom was OU for a very long time, and only dropped out because of the metagame shift. Obviously, its not deserving of an evolution. However, its a legal submission.

How are we to say that some BLs aren't legal, and some BLs are? Its an entirely subjective process. Whats to stop people from evolving Pokemon like Breloom, Donphan, or Hariyama, who were OU for a while, and are only BL because of usage? Essentially, you would have an OU->OU evolution. As such, BLs as a whole shouldn't be allowed.

 

[sanjay120]

And the objective reasoning for allowing UUs in is?

Listen, if you let BLs in, no one is going to be clamoring for a Roserade or Porygon-Z evo, even if they weren't already third stages. If they do, they'll just be ignored because people recognize that they're already good enough. Do you honestly think this community so stupid? Of course we won't evolve Breloom. How about instead of ignoring the problem, you simply state that no Pokemon that has ever been OU is eligible?

I don't see a problem with the Pinsirs and Tauroses of the tier. It gives us more options, which is always a good thing. And imo Ditto should be included, it's not going to break the metagame if we evolve it. If it gives you a headache, then let someone else run it.

 

[tennisace]

Listen, if you let BLs in, no one is going to be clamoring for a Roserade or Porygon-Z evo, even if they weren't already third stages. If they do, they'll just be ignored because people recognize that they're already good enough.

You would think so. However, this kind of thing is NEVER ignored. Little by little, it snowballs until it crushes every other idea.

But I don't see a problem with the Pinsirs and Tauroses of the tier. It gives us more options, which is always a good thing.

I don't either. Just give me some objective way to determine what Pokemon fall into that category.

And imo Ditto should be included, it's not going to break the metagame if we evolve it. If it gives you a headache, then let someone else run it.

Ditto won't be included for two reasons. One: like Unown, it only has one move. We won't be giving it a movepool, or else it just isn't Ditto. Therefore, it removes a whole poll from the process. Two: the stats are decided. It would have massive HP and Speed. Any other stats wouldn't help it in any way, shape or form, since it needs high Speed to get off the transform, and HP is the only stat that carries. Therefore, it would be broken, since you could easily transform into something like Gengar and hammer the opponent, while not taking much due to the high HP. Hell, transform into Shuckle and you've got yourself a gg there.

 

[Icy Vegeta]

What if we base the new Evo project on the debate of BL pokemon and see what the most frequently used BL Pokemon are, then we work our way down forming a list.

 

[tennisace]

What if we base the new Evo project on the debate of BL pokemon and see what the most frequently used BL Pokemon are, then we work our way down forming a list.

Why the hell would we base the project on BL Pokemon, when UU Pokemon are "more deserving" of an evolution. UU Pokemon cannot function in the OU environment well enough to be OU on their own. Tentacruel is the one exception, because it found a much needed niche in the metagame. All other UU Pokemon may have a niche in OU, but if they can function "good" in OU, then why aren't they used more? Obviously they aren't good enough. (Go ahead UU players, flame on.) However, a lot of BL Pokemon were good enough for a past OU metagame. So they are good enough for OU, ergo, they don't need an evolution to become OU. Final point: BLs aren't used really, so there wouldn't be enough usages to decisively decide what is or isn't OU worthy or UU banned. Usage is partially objective, and that's on the right track, but it won't solve the little problem of splitting the BL tier.

 

[sanjay120]

I already gave you an objective way. Ban everything that has ever been OU.

The Ditto thing was more of a matter of principle. I realized your reasoning as I was typing it, but you should have said that to begin with.

EDIT: Rofl talking to us about objectiveness and then saying that UUs are "more deserving" of evos. I think BLs need it more, it would at least give ignored lines more use. Really, when was the last time you saw a Zangoose?

 

[Empoleon Guru]

I think Illumise and Volbeat should be evolved together too.
And too Eric the Espeon's list, Rampardos and Azumarill shouldn't be eligible.
And although it's pretty obvious, no one said this so "there should be no evos for eeveeloutions."

 

[sanjay120]

Zangoose and Seviper would need to be evolved together too, before anyone jumps on me with "we can't evolve Zangoose duh".

 

[tennisace]

I already gave you an objective way. Ban everything that has ever been OU.

That's actually not a bad idea in theory, and I could agree with it. Just get me old OU lists from the start of shoddy on.

EDIT: Rofl talking to us about objectiveness and then saying that UUs are "more deserving" of evos. I think BLs need it more, it would at least give ignored lines more use. Really, when was the last time you saw a Zangoose?

Notice the quotes? I then went on to say why they should be given evolutions but not BL Pokemon. Also, if you evolve Zangoose, to use your example, you need to evolve Sviper too, since they're a "pair". Last, UU Pokemon lines are generally ignored in OU too, so what's your point?

I think Illumise and Volbeat should be evolved together too.
And too Eric the Espeon's list, Rampardos and Azumarill shouldn't be eligible.

Good catch.

And although it's pretty obvious, no one said this so "there should be no evos for eeveeloutions."

Pokemon who have undergone a split evolution or have multiple forms are not eligible.

Been there, covered that.

 

[Icy Vegeta]

Let me clarify tennis, I wasn't anywhere NEAR saying we should base our project on BLs, I was trying to come up with a solution that would allow some BLs and disallow others.

 

[sanjay120]

I didn't say "ignored in OU", I said "ignored". UU Pokemon at least have their niche in UU.

I will get you the lists later. I am typing from an iPod now.

 

[tennisace]

I didn't say "ignored in OU", I said "ignored". UU Pokemon at least have their niche in UU.

I know. However, since we're making Pokemon for the OU metagame, I don't care about how ignored they are or aren't in UU.

I will get you the lists later. I am typing from an iPod now.

Thank you. Now we're getting somewhere with this.