That's what I meant.
So essentially, to -temporarily- cripple one Machoke/Champ you have to kill one of your pokes.
>_>
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Exploring the Glitchmon Metagame
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That's what I meant.
So essentially, to -temporarily- cripple one Machoke/Champ you have to kill one of your pokes.
>_>
Err...misread that. Regardless, there is no point trying to change machoke's ability. Just kill it with Sheer Cold.
Anyway, to address the issue of Toxic Spikes in streetmons:
Even in a metagame where half of the Pokemon run Lum Berry, spamming Spore indiscriminately is certainly going to be less profitable with Toxic Spikes up. Anything without a lum berry, including those that have already used it up, can switch into Spore for free. Instead, if you could get Gengar in on something without a lum berry, you could use spore totally indiscriminately, as nothing bar an Ursaring that has already activated its orb can actually come in. Additionally, the poisoning effect of Toxic Spikes is likely to be less relevant in such a fast-paced metagame, with the notable exception of racking up additional damage with ursaring. In many ways it actually makes Machoke harder to deal with. It would be interesting to see if anyone could come up with a set that abuses Toxic Spikes to their full effect, because at the moment all of the sets I see are very offensive.
Nonetheless, I am going to try out Toxic Spikes on my Dugtrio team. Dugtrio, with the set I posted on the first page, could potentially become very scary with lum berries removed. The opponent cannot simply switch to a poisoned teammate due to arena trap, and can therefore be set up on without fail. If the opponent doesn't have many lums it could be potentially embarassing, though.
Anyway, to address the issue of Toxic Spikes in streetmons:
Pearl. said:
Even in a metagame where half of the Pokemon run Lum Berry, spamming Spore indiscriminately is certainly going to be less profitable with Toxic Spikes up. Anything without a lum berry, including those that have already used it up, can switch into Spore for free. Instead, if you could get Gengar in on something without a lum berry, you could use spore totally indiscriminately, as nothing bar an Ursaring that has already activated its orb can actually come in. Additionally, the poisoning effect of Toxic Spikes is likely to be less relevant in such a fast-paced metagame, with the notable exception of racking up additional damage with ursaring. In many ways it actually makes Machoke harder to deal with. It would be interesting to see if anyone could come up with a set that abuses Toxic Spikes to their full effect, because at the moment all of the sets I see are very offensive.
Nonetheless, I am going to try out Toxic Spikes on my Dugtrio team. Dugtrio, with the set I posted on the first page, could potentially become very scary with lum berries removed. The opponent cannot simply switch to a poisoned teammate due to arena trap, and can therefore be set up on without fail. If the opponent doesn't have many lums it could be potentially embarassing, though.
Nooooo. Can't switch into anything, can't handle Fake Out (which has priority over ES)
I know user toaster has talked about Rhydon in another post, but I'm going to talk about my favorite Rhydon set to use. Before I get to that though, I may as well mention the reason why Rhydon is superior to Rhyperior in this metagame. It's all about Rock Head. Having a no recoil Head Smash coming from 130 base attack is pretty scary, and Rhydon's stats are very similar to Rhyperior's anyways. Solid Rock is a cool ability and all, but it's not going to beat having a STAB no recoil Head Smash!
Rhydon @ Eviolite / Lum Berry
Trait: Rock Head
IVs: 0 Spd
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Head Smash
- Sheer Cold
- Earthquake / Wood Hammer / V-create
I have been using this guy since around April, but Rhydon's been appearing on a lot of my TR teams lately because its such a great mon. First of all, while Rock / Ground is normally considered a poor defensive typing, Rock is actually a great defensive typing to have in this metagame. It provides Rhydon a vital resistance to V-create and ExtremeSpeed, which is not only important in Mimic Street Pokemon in general, but is even more important on TR teams considering how hard it can be to fit a Fire resist! Because of this, Rhydon makes a great check to most Ursaring, with most Ursaring being unable to 2HKO Rhydon, while Rhydon threatens to Head Smash it to death. The other great thing about Rhydon is it's poor Speed. Thanks to that base 40 Speed, it will outspeed Machoke under Trick Room, and then OHKO it with Sheer Cold.
Like I said before, recoiless Head Smash is a big part of what makes Rhydon so good in this metagame, and good lord does it fucking hurt! Almost anything that doesn't resist Head Smash will get 2HKOed, and even mons that do resist Head Smash still take quite a bit of damage! The last move can actually be quite tricky to choose. Earthquake is the most common choice for the last slot. It provides great coverage with Head Smash, crushing Steel-types that may attempt to switch in on Head Smash. However if you are more worried about Groudon, you can use Wood Hammer over Earthquake. While being walled by steels is annoying, Wood Hammer 2HKOs most Groudon as long as they aren't Impish, meaning that Rhydon can actually beat Groudon under Trick Room! Wood Hammer also slams Golem and opposing Rhydon hard. Finally, Rhydon isn't a bad user of V-create. V-create does more to Groudon than Wood Hammer, and it busts through steels as well. Sadly, you will lose to Golem and Rhydon if you use V-create.
Another tough choice for Rhydon is the item. Evolite is pretty awesome, making Rhydon the most bulky Pokemon on the physical side in the game! It also boosts Rhydon's lack luster SpD, which can be helpful for taking stuff like sunny Fire Blasts. However, Evolite gives Rhydon one big weakness: Spore. Rhydon's biggest problem is that after Trick Room runs out, Pokemon such as Magnezone will usually set up on it via Spore. Unlike Machoke, Rhydon's physical defense is still pretty good without evolite, so you can elect to use a Lum Berry to screw up Magnezone and friends after Trick Room is done. Losing that bulk sucks, but having a way to deal with Spore can make lum a reasonable alternative.
I'd also like to note that while I think the Shell Smash Rhydon toaster posted was too slow, I am very interested in trying it! If I were to test Shell Smash Rhydon, I would personally use an ev spread of 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Speed with Jolly. This way, you outspeed Dugtrio after one use of Shell Smash, so it won't have the chance to Spore you! Im also thinking of trying Sheer Cold or Brave Bird over Earthquake on this set. Brave Bird does 86.8% - 102.2% to Machoke after a Shell Smash, and its nice to have in case someone double switches to scout for Sheer Cold since Brave Bird will still do a nice amount of damage to nuetral mons after a boost. Also note that Magnezone takes 77.2% - 91.1% from +2 Head Smash, so if I were to use lum, it can't set up! However, losing to stuff like Jirachi and Metagross can be a pain so it may just be best to play carefully around Machoke.
Rhydon @ Eviolite / Lum Berry
Trait: Rock Head
IVs: 0 Spd
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Head Smash
- Sheer Cold
- Earthquake / Wood Hammer / V-create
I have been using this guy since around April, but Rhydon's been appearing on a lot of my TR teams lately because its such a great mon. First of all, while Rock / Ground is normally considered a poor defensive typing, Rock is actually a great defensive typing to have in this metagame. It provides Rhydon a vital resistance to V-create and ExtremeSpeed, which is not only important in Mimic Street Pokemon in general, but is even more important on TR teams considering how hard it can be to fit a Fire resist! Because of this, Rhydon makes a great check to most Ursaring, with most Ursaring being unable to 2HKO Rhydon, while Rhydon threatens to Head Smash it to death. The other great thing about Rhydon is it's poor Speed. Thanks to that base 40 Speed, it will outspeed Machoke under Trick Room, and then OHKO it with Sheer Cold.
Like I said before, recoiless Head Smash is a big part of what makes Rhydon so good in this metagame, and good lord does it fucking hurt! Almost anything that doesn't resist Head Smash will get 2HKOed, and even mons that do resist Head Smash still take quite a bit of damage! The last move can actually be quite tricky to choose. Earthquake is the most common choice for the last slot. It provides great coverage with Head Smash, crushing Steel-types that may attempt to switch in on Head Smash. However if you are more worried about Groudon, you can use Wood Hammer over Earthquake. While being walled by steels is annoying, Wood Hammer 2HKOs most Groudon as long as they aren't Impish, meaning that Rhydon can actually beat Groudon under Trick Room! Wood Hammer also slams Golem and opposing Rhydon hard. Finally, Rhydon isn't a bad user of V-create. V-create does more to Groudon than Wood Hammer, and it busts through steels as well. Sadly, you will lose to Golem and Rhydon if you use V-create.
Another tough choice for Rhydon is the item. Evolite is pretty awesome, making Rhydon the most bulky Pokemon on the physical side in the game! It also boosts Rhydon's lack luster SpD, which can be helpful for taking stuff like sunny Fire Blasts. However, Evolite gives Rhydon one big weakness: Spore. Rhydon's biggest problem is that after Trick Room runs out, Pokemon such as Magnezone will usually set up on it via Spore. Unlike Machoke, Rhydon's physical defense is still pretty good without evolite, so you can elect to use a Lum Berry to screw up Magnezone and friends after Trick Room is done. Losing that bulk sucks, but having a way to deal with Spore can make lum a reasonable alternative.
I'd also like to note that while I think the Shell Smash Rhydon toaster posted was too slow, I am very interested in trying it! If I were to test Shell Smash Rhydon, I would personally use an ev spread of 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Speed with Jolly. This way, you outspeed Dugtrio after one use of Shell Smash, so it won't have the chance to Spore you! Im also thinking of trying Sheer Cold or Brave Bird over Earthquake on this set. Brave Bird does 86.8% - 102.2% to Machoke after a Shell Smash, and its nice to have in case someone double switches to scout for Sheer Cold since Brave Bird will still do a nice amount of damage to nuetral mons after a boost. Also note that Magnezone takes 77.2% - 91.1% from +2 Head Smash, so if I were to use lum, it can't set up! However, losing to stuff like Jirachi and Metagross can be a pain so it may just be best to play carefully around Machoke.
ladders a bit empty, but i did try this set on a friend
Tyranitar 252 hp / 36 atk / 220 SpD Adamant @ Lum Berry
EVs are just the bulky CBer for lack of a better spread since i wanted some special bulk
Swords Dance
Sucker Punch
Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Power Whip
ExtremeSpeed
Sets up weather, checks shedinja, strongest sucker punch in the game and is bulky as fuck.
Also I would like to ask experienced streetmonners their opinion on Shell Smash Metagross who has the highest physical bulk of all steel mons and can use shell smash (i'm pretty sure clear body doesn't prevent your stats from being lowered after ss, however.)
Probably something like MM / EQ / SS / Power Whip @ Lum 40 Hp / 252 Atk / 216 Spe Adamant
Tyranitar 252 hp / 36 atk / 220 SpD Adamant @ Lum Berry
EVs are just the bulky CBer for lack of a better spread since i wanted some special bulk
Swords Dance
Sucker Punch
Stone Edge / Rock Slide / Power Whip
ExtremeSpeed
Sets up weather, checks shedinja, strongest sucker punch in the game and is bulky as fuck.
Also I would like to ask experienced streetmonners their opinion on Shell Smash Metagross who has the highest physical bulk of all steel mons and can use shell smash (i'm pretty sure clear body doesn't prevent your stats from being lowered after ss, however.)
Probably something like MM / EQ / SS / Power Whip @ Lum 40 Hp / 252 Atk / 216 Spe Adamant
Shell Smash Metagross is excellent. In fact its arguably better than Jirachi in several ways. When I get the time later today I'm actually going to replace Jirachi's slot in the OP with "Metagross / Jirachi", because they function very similarly but are both deadly sweepers.
So recently I got thinking, ghosts are pretty damn awesome in this metagame. They are immune to all those Extremespeeders running rampant, though V-Create still hits them pretty hard, or the odd Shadow Sneak. That said, a ghost that resists fire would be fantastic because that would make it a great wall. Unfortunately, no such Pokemon gets the bug.
Chandelure, however has a Ghost/Fire typing, making it immune to common priority, resistant to Steel and Fire and has a gargantuan 145 Special attack stat. Flash Fire allows Chandelure to absorb those nasty V-Creates and Shadow Tag allows Chandelure to trap certain Pokemon and achieve +6/6/6 with Calm Mind and Nitro Charge. Chandelure's 60 Base HP may make it sad, but Pain Split makes it a blessing in disguise, hurting high-HP foes while keeping up its health. Hence, I believe Chandelure could work a fairly effective (and very lulzy) SubSplit set.
Chandelure @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag / Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Pain Split
- Substitute
- Minimize
- Curse
The gist of this moveset is to cause as much pain (split) and frustration to your opponent as possible, hence shifting the momentum in your favour. Chandelure can switch into stuff like Ursaring's Normal priority attacks, and begin to Lolol it up with Minimize and Pain Split. Eventually, you'll be at +6 Evasion, allowing you to set up a Sub effectively.
With Sub up, Chandelure canbegin to spew forth vulgarities, making it slow but much more strong and manly Curse the enemy Poke. From common sense, Curse 4HKOs almost all 'mons while Chandelure sits on his ass because Chandelure is a Ghost type, remember? Lefties recovery and Pain Split will probably bring Chandy back to good health while his opponent slowly dies.
Ursaring died from frustration? No problem bro, you still evade a ton of shit even from Special Attackers thanks to that +6 evasion. Proceed to Curse and Pain Split/Sub accordingly.
Trolololol.
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I guess Chandelure could also run a Nitro Charge/Calm Mind set to achieve +6/+6/+6, but without reliable recovery and only two moves, Gengar would outclass it.
Chandelure, however has a Ghost/Fire typing, making it immune to common priority, resistant to Steel and Fire and has a gargantuan 145 Special attack stat. Flash Fire allows Chandelure to absorb those nasty V-Creates and Shadow Tag allows Chandelure to trap certain Pokemon and achieve +6/6/6 with Calm Mind and Nitro Charge. Chandelure's 60 Base HP may make it sad, but Pain Split makes it a blessing in disguise, hurting high-HP foes while keeping up its health. Hence, I believe Chandelure could work a fairly effective (and very lulzy) SubSplit set.
Chandelure @ Leftovers
Trait: Shadow Tag / Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Pain Split
- Substitute
- Minimize
- Curse
The gist of this moveset is to cause as much pain (split) and frustration to your opponent as possible, hence shifting the momentum in your favour. Chandelure can switch into stuff like Ursaring's Normal priority attacks, and begin to Lolol it up with Minimize and Pain Split. Eventually, you'll be at +6 Evasion, allowing you to set up a Sub effectively.
With Sub up, Chandelure can
Ursaring died from frustration? No problem bro, you still evade a ton of shit even from Special Attackers thanks to that +6 evasion. Proceed to Curse and Pain Split/Sub accordingly.
Trolololol.
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I guess Chandelure could also run a Nitro Charge/Calm Mind set to achieve +6/+6/+6, but without reliable recovery and only two moves, Gengar would outclass it.
Obviously, Shadow Tag Chandelure isn't available in Streetmons, but rather only in DW Streetmons. But I'm curious about how Flash Fire Chandelure fares in "normal" Streetmons. Immune to everything a standard Ursaring carries, immune to ES and V-Create that are all over the place, not to mention getting a boost from the latter. Has anyone tried this out?
Chandelure is actually pretty good in streetmons even without its Dream World ability. In the sun it is astoundingly powerful, especially if you can get a Flash Fire boost, and it has two of the best immunities in the metagame. With a Choice Scarf it is fast enough for sweeping; Snunch swept me with one yesterday. Let's take a look at what happens to the Pokemon from the OP, and a few others mentioned in the thread, assuming Modest nature, either sun or a flash fire boost (not both), and no boosting item. All targets are 252 HP, neutral nature. To most, this is very generous.
Also:
edit: adding the set
Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 44 Def / 252 SpA / 212 Spe
Modest Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Shadow Ball
Fairly self explanatory. Speed lets it outrun max Speed Dugtrio. Could run max Speed but tbh there is not much to outrun, especially given the imperfect Speed IV required for HP Fighting. Timid is an option, but as you can see in the calcs above many of its OHKOs are somewhat marginal. As far as support is concerned, you should be using at least one Groudon. Outside of the sun Chandelure is underwhelming.
- Fire Blast vs Eviolite Machoke: 96.4% - 113.7%
- Fire Blast vs Ursaring: OHKO (252 HP is generous to Ursaring)
- Fire Blast vs Groudon: 94.3% - 111.1%
- Fire Blast vs Machamp: OHKO (again, generous)
- Fire Blast vs Slaking: 98.4% - 115.9%
- Fire Blast vs Eviolite Rhydon: 52.7% - 61.8%
- Energy Ball vs Eviolite Rhydon: OHKO
- Energy Ball vs Kyogre: 45.6% - 53.8%
- Hidden Power Fighting vs Tyranitar (sand): 60.4% - 71.3%
Also:
- Max Attack +1 Ursaring Shadow Sneak vs 0/4 Chandelure: 60.5% - 71.3%
edit: adding the set
Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 44 Def / 252 SpA / 212 Spe
Modest Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Shadow Ball
Fairly self explanatory. Speed lets it outrun max Speed Dugtrio. Could run max Speed but tbh there is not much to outrun, especially given the imperfect Speed IV required for HP Fighting. Timid is an option, but as you can see in the calcs above many of its OHKOs are somewhat marginal. As far as support is concerned, you should be using at least one Groudon. Outside of the sun Chandelure is underwhelming.
Box said:
It might, but I imagine that you could achieve similar results more reliably with a much, much simpler set.
Anyway, I can't believe Choice Scarf Kyogre didn't make the OP. With everything investing in Defense rather than HP, rain-boosted Water Spout does huge damage. While Kyogre lacks the immunities of Chandelure (another weather-reliant Scarfer I feel is viable), it makes up for it with sheer power, and the fact that it does not require support. Almost no Pokemon I see frequently is capable of taking Water Spout from a full-health Kyogre, Groudon being the most notable exception, and similarly few Pokemon are able to outrun it. Really the only problem Kyogre faces is Ursaring, which KOes Kyogre with a combination of Fake Out and ExtremeSpeed. However, as long as the opponent doesn't set up too many hazards, you can simply switch out to something that totally walls Ursaring, like Rhydon, Golem, Omastar, or Giratina, and then bring Kyogre back in later to wreak havoc. Here is the set I am using at the moment:
Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Water Spout
- Weather Ball
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
I am not entirely sure what to run on the set yet. At the moment, I am simply going with a spread of 4 Def 252 SpA 252 Spe Timid, accepting that Kyogre will lose to Ursaring. I could imagine a slower, bulkier set working though too. The moveset I am even less sure about. Water Spout is a given, but the rest of the slots are flexible. Hydro Pump could be used over Weather Ball for additional power. If you choose to do so, you could also consider Blue Flare, for Groudon switchins. Grass Knot does a good job against opposing Kyogre and Groudon, but Kyogre can also be hit with Thunder, and Groudon with Weather Ball/Blue Flare. Ice Beam hits the Grass- and Dragon-types; though these are rare, this is really the only option for them, and therefore makes it onto my provisional moveset.
and by "filler move" you mean Extremespeed for Ursaring, right?
electrode@focus sash/lum berry/leftovers
ability:soundproof
trait:jolly 252hp 4atk 252speed
-imprison
-spore
-sheer cold
-extremespeed/shell smash.
with the evs given, you outspeed acarf machamp And can imprison before anything is used. extremespeed is for ursaring (although it will probably ohko before it moves) and shell smash for sweepers.
ability:soundproof
trait:jolly 252hp 4atk 252speed
-imprison
-spore
-sheer cold
-extremespeed/shell smash.
with the evs given, you outspeed acarf machamp And can imprison before anything is used. extremespeed is for ursaring (although it will probably ohko before it moves) and shell smash for sweepers.
That would work, or maybe Shell Smash if you didn't have a problem with Ursaring.
A Scarf could work just as well.
Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Serene Grace
Ability: Jolly
EVs: 252 Spe / 252 HP / 4 Def or 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Imprison
- Spore
- Sheer Cold
- Extremespeed / Shell Smash / whatever
A handy Steel typing can help you take Fake Outs and ES better from Ursaring, and the two EV sets are if you want more stopping power or the ability to revenge kill, though I doubt Jirachi will actually be revenging much.
Upon being imprisoned by a scarfed Jirachi why wouldn't one simply switch out?
Spore, it could clear hazards for Sheddy, whatever it wants to do. Give it a purpose that fits with your team, it can do nearly ANYTHING
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