Metagame Exploring Venusaur

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Venusaur just recently dropped back in January and has made a large impact on the metagame in the short time it's been around. However, everyone is mostly just utilizing one set, despite Venusaur being a pretty versatile Pokemon.


Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Sleep Powder / Knock Off

While this set is very effective and puts a lot of pressure on the opponent, there are other variations of Venusaur that might be worth exploring as well because it's flexible.


Some sets that may be worth testing more (avoid talking about multiple sets unless you elaborate on each one):
  • Swords Dance: Venusaur will have a lot of opportunities to set up Swords Dance, and Earthquake can surprise a lot of Venusaur's usual answers.
  • A more defensive set with Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Leech Seed / Synthesis: Venusaur has good bulk as well as a great Special Attack stat for a defensive Pokemon. Leech Seed is also a really good move on a Grass/Poison-type although Sigilyph is annoying. More reason to use w/o Amoonguss in the tier.
  • Choice Scarf: Good speed tier for Choice Scarf, can surprise a lot of the offensive Pokemon that try to KO it. Overgrow Petal Dance also just sweeps.
  • Leech Seed on Life Orb Venusaur (probably over the last move): Leech Seed + Synthesis is sure to be annoying for Registeel, especially ones that lack Thunder Wave.
  • Giga Drain on Life Orb Venusaur: Could allow Venusaur to not have to use Synthesis which means it can use both Sleep Powder and Knock Off, or maybe something else.
  • Sun sweeping Venusaur: Venusaur can be really scary under the sun, although you run problems with what Grass-type move to run.



Also, feel free to talk about what Pokemon you use to beat Venusaur and what kind of team they fit on. For example, a growing trend right now is using Garbodor, which is a good Pokemon to set up Spikes and checks Venusaur / Fighters in one slot.
 
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EonX

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Not going to touch on everything, but....

Giga Drain for LO Venusaur: I've found that this is an amazing tool that gives Venusaur MUCH more staying power vs more balanced teams without having to waste a turn to Synthesis. You'd generally use it over Sleep Powder / Knock Off and it allows you to fire off that powerful Grass STAB at stuff like Blastoise and Alomomola without risking a fat Grass like Tangrowth or opposing Venusaur coming in to take what they're expecting to be a Leaf Storm and either stay in to 1v1 you or pivot out into a Poison resist that literally doesn't care about -2 Sludge Bomb.

Defensive Venusaur: This has a bit more merit now that Amoonguss has left the tier. Unlike Amoonguss, it actually poses a bit of a threat due to base 100 Special Attack and it's commonly seen as an offensive Pokemon. While I don't think it should be all-out defensive with its EV spread, you can definitely pour some EVs into its defenses on top of max HP to tank hits much more reliably. What makes it great as a defensive Pokemon is its poison immunity, and access to mulitple forms of recovery in Giga Drain, Synthesis, and Leech Seed.

Choice Scarf Venusaur: You know, I'll be honest, but I'm surprised nobody has explored this yet. I know DPP UU was a vastly different meta than ORAS RU is, but base 80 is a nice Speed tier for a Scarfer (hell, just look at Medicham) and you have a nuke in STAB Leaf Storm that revenges most offensive Pokemon that can't resist it. Also, fast Sleep Powder is NEVER a terrible thing when you're scaring most Grass-types in RU with STAB Sludge Bomb. While Petal Dance is certainly strong, Venusaur does have Energy Ball if you don't wan to have to risk something no matter the Grass STAB you use. Something along the lines of Sleep Powder, Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb, and Petal Dance / Energy Ball can probably work pretty well.

Venusaur is a tricky Pokemon to check without resorting to defensive answers. Even still, decently bulky Flying-types can do a decent enough job at it since they resist its nuke, Leaf Storm. One of the more underrated Pokemon to beat Venusaur with imo is Golbat. While Registeel, Garbodor, and Weezing are certainly nice answers to Venusaur, Golbat boasts a 4x Grass resistance along with reliable recovery in Roost. However, it is weak to Stealth Rock, thus making it susceptible to the Venusaur user predicting this with a double switch into something that threatens Golbat, thus forcing it back out to take more Stealth Rock damage. Still, it's the only Pokemon that can 4x resist Grass moves aside from Fletchinder (lol) and it can easily push through Venusaur with Brave Bird or use it as fodder to heal back up with Roost.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
fine, by popular demand here is my post but more fleshed out.

My issue with Swords Dance Venusaur is that I don't think it works in an offensive, take-on-the-entire-tier and sweep a whole team kind of way. I especially don't think it can work well against most offensive teams. As a result, its niche is as more of a defensive sweeper who picks apart its counters and wears away the opposing team more gradually, and is OK with being forced out because it can come in again. Except that Torterra or Tangrowth are better at switching in and finding opportunities and at providing general defensive utility. I could be wrong about the offensive thing and i'm interested to see if people have had good experiences with it, but my gut says it's revenged by too many fast things, switched into by enough bulky things, and hilariously hard-walled by fletchinder.

The defensive set seems to compete heavily with Vileplume, who while slightly less bulky has the very nice Effect Spore to punish its foes, as well as options like Aromatherapy or even Moonblast. If you're an RU player right now, you probably think either Scrafty or Malamar is underhyped and a force in this metagame, and Moonblast lets Vileplume check both fairly well. This is nice role compression because frankly, fairies right now are really bad and that's your main option for both of those threats. What Venusaur has is 5 HP, 10 SpD, and -2 Def - it's nice to have a generally bulky grass, but given that grass / poisons usually skew physically defensive, it's not much of a hit.

Although Leech Seed in the last slot definitely annoys Registeels without thunder wave, so does Knock Off, although it takes longer and you may have to switch out once or twice. Additionally, Knock Off is very nice for the likes of Bronzong, as well as...really, anything bulky with leftovers. Things like SubBu Brav, Flygon, other defensive Grass / Poison-types, et cetera. So sounds all right but I'm not sold on it being much more than a niche option.

I know some people like the Giga Drain set, but my main issue is that it can't really muscle through the things that a Venusaur needs to muscle through; because it lacks Leaf Storm and lacks Synthesis, it doesn't last very long and it doesn't have a move to just kill things, which it needs because bulky waters like Slowking and Alomomola can take a Giga Drain if necessary. (Theoretically, you can not use Sleep Powder in the last slot, though then you're even worse off in my opinion.)

As for sunny day venusaur, I recall the last person to try it in depth preferred Victreebel and that's my assessment as well. Chlorophyll Victreebel takes the few checks Venusaur has and destroys them. You can try both on one team, or maybe you really want that bulk, but in my opinion the first leads to a big lack of synergy and the second doesn't matter that much when you're walled so much more often.

My core for defeating Venusaur is a Registeel with Thunder Wave and a Mega Camerupt with Sleep Talk. It works pretty well, with the Mega Camerupt coming in on Alomomola Wishes to threaten the rest of the team or maybe absorbing a Sleep Powder and Sleep Talking the Venusaur for either a kill or a lot of damage. And of course, Registeel stands strong always (Especially since the ladder prefers HP Fire).
 
Well after having quite a conversation about it in the RU room I have to say SD venusaur seems kinda useless. First off all there's very little reason to use it over virizion or sceptile (or hell even leafeon) which have boast much better coverage alongside their STAB as well as having better speed and attack stats then venusaur. So one reason is for beating fairies more easily which is fair enough until you realize the most common fairy in the tier, diancie, is OHKOd by +2 virizion's leaf blade anyways (+2 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 320-380 (105.2 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Another reason I guess could be access to sleep powder but virizion already easily finds opportunities to setup all the time. I guess it can check fighting types better then virizion can but I feel as though poison is a horrible type to have as a fighting resist in RU.

TL;DR: SD Venusaur is outclassed by it's fellow Swords Dancing Grass-type brethren in RU/BL3
 
Swords Dance Venusaur: I also feel that Venusaur is definitely very unexplored as the only major different move I see compared to the standard set is giga drain. I have tried a swords dance set in the past and I feel that it is not very effective although it can have a niche over the special set. Power Whip/Earthquake/Synthesis and Swords Dance is the set I have used although it has many variations. Unfortunately Venusaur does not get a poison type physical move like poison jab which could have been an option over synthesis. Sleep powder > synthesis is also a plausible option as it cripple threats that can switch in on the combination of power whip and earthquake such as bronzong, weezing, and fletchinder along with knock off > synthesis as it also can cripple mons that rely upon on their items such as golbat's eviolite. A problem with this set is that it can easily be checked by the grass types in this tier such as virizion and tangrowth, or even mons like fletchinder which cannot switch into the special set; in which case you can try a mixed set although I feel the special class would mostly outclass that anyway. Overall some advantages the swords dance set has over the standard special set can be hit different mons for more damage such as diancie, as it mostly runs spdef, drapion, garbodor and other grounded poison types. Another disadvantageous this set faces is it fears scald more than its special variant as it can't switch in freely on scalds, fearing the burn from alomomola blastoise, etc. Overall I would say this set is decent but very niche and the life orb special set overall performs better.
more offensive
Venusaur @ Black Sludge
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Power Whip
- Earthquake
- Synthesis/Knock Off/Sleep Powder

more bulky
Venusaur @ Black Sludge
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Atk / 92 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Power Whip
- Earthquake
- Synthesis/Knock Off/Sleep Powder

This spread was to outspeed up to modest hoopa, while still outspeeding stuff like choice specs modest exploud and banded adamant emboar while maximizing bulk.

+2 252 Atk Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Drapion: 294-346 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Venusaur Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garbodor: 260-308 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Also, feel free to talk about what Pokemon you use to beat Venusaur and what kind of team they fit on. For example, a growing trend right now is using Garbodor, which is a good Pokemon to set up Spikes and checks Venusaur / Fighters in one slot.
A nice mon I use to check and beat venusaur is spdef weezing. Weezing is a nice underrated mon with a nice typing + ability in poison with levitate which makes it only weak to psychic types. Along with flamethrower coverage this allows it to easily weaken venusaur and very common mons like mega steelix. Also the ability to learn will-o-wisp makes weezing a decent check to physical mons and fighting types, such as hitmonlee and medicham. Finally it gets moves such as pain split, to promote longetivity, taunt, to stop mons from statusing it or acting as clerics (although i would run more speed on a taunt set), and toxic spikes which work well with mons such as hex rotom or generally mons that appreciate a weakened team to attack. I have used Weezing mainly on balance type builds but I feel like it can work on semi-stall and stall if used appropriately and benefits over stuff like golbat because it doesn't have a weakness to rocks and rely on eviolite for enhanced bulk or garbodor which does not get a recovery mon like pain split or will-o-wisp.

Weezing @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Sludge Bomb
 
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The defensive set seems to compete heavily with Vileplume, who while slightly less bulky has the very nice Effect Spore to punish its foes, as well as options like Aromatherapy or even Moonblast. If you're an RU player right now, you probably think either Scrafty or Malamar is underhyped and a force in this metagame, and Moonblast lets Vileplume check both fairly well. This is nice role compression because frankly, fairies right now are really bad and that's your main option for both of those threats. What Venusaur has is 5 HP, 10 SpD, and -2 Def - it's nice to have a generally bulky grass, but given that grass / poisons usually skew physically defensive, it's not much of a hit.
The thing is Venusaur does Leech Seed better than Vileplume. There's no room for Moonblast on Vileplume if you want to use Leech Seed, so the only thing Leech Seed Vileplume has over Venusaur is 10 more Special Attack, as you can't even use Effect Spore with Leech Seed. So basically, Leech Seed Venusaur is bulkier and faster (very helpful for stuff like CB Rhyperior) while having a less niche ability. You don't need Moonblast to beat Scrafty or Malamar either as Leech Seed beats them both fine. Leech Seed seems like a way better move in general to me as it synergizes really well with Venusaur's Poison-typing and allows you to wear down annoying Pokemon / heal up teammates. I'm really not sure why people mention Moonblast on Vileplume; the only reason to ever use Vileplume is Aromatherapy and the fact that it can Effect Spore Hitmonlee's. However, because it can't use Leech Seed and Effect Spore, defensive Venusaur has a very clear niche over Vileplume and seems way better to me anyways.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
I don't really know what specific Scrafty people are using these days; with that said,

+3 252 Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 250-295 (68.8 - 81.2%)
+3 252 Atk Scrafty Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%)

Venusaur doesn't really do enough damage to stop a lefties Scrafty from DDing twice again after it comes in, so it's not really that hard to win over Leech Seed Venusaur; considering that Scrafty is just boosting in your face here, if you don't have something else in the back this could be game. Vileplume just clicks Moonblast and moves on with its life, no fuss, no muss. Meanwhile, Life Orb can score an easy 2HKO at +2, though it'll be pretty worn away after doing so.

And of course, Malamar is still driving all over you with Venusaur.

simple reality is that you are overhyping leech seed a bit and undervaluing moonblast a lot. leech seed is, again, cool, but not game-changing to such a degree as you're putting it.
 

Punchshroom

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For that matter, I don't strongly condone defensive Venusaur with 0 Speed investment in the first place; defensive Venusaur has a good enough Speed tier to creep a couple of wallbreakers while maintaining the bulk necessary to be able to fend off the mons it is supposed to check, up to Jolly Hitmonlee.

On the other hand, DD Scrafty very rarely carries Leftovers, and even if it does, it faces an uphill battle in getting enough boosts to overwhelm Venusaur while trying to survive the onslaught of Leech Seed + Giga Drain.
+3 252 Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 72+ Def Venusaur: 300-354 (82.6 - 97.5%)
There is plenty of time for Venusaur to get enough health back with Synthesis, so it's not even particularly pressured to use Leech Seed first. Meanwhile, it is necessary for Scrafty to aim for the OHKO as not only would the second Knock Off become substantially weaker (and with Venusaur's stream of recovery, a 2HKO becomes a lot less easy to get), if the first one knocks Venusaur into Overgrow range, the powered up Giga Drain can likely undo most of Scrafty's efforts if not kill it outright.

So yeah, Moonblast is not enough of a niche to separate Vileplume from Venusaur; the only real merits Plume has are Effect Spore and Aromatherapy, which are really, really situational compared to what Venusaur or other Pokemon have to offer.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
For that matter, I don't strongly condone defensive Venusaur with 0 Speed investment in the first place; defensive Venusaur has a good enough Speed tier to creep a couple of wallbreakers while maintaining the bulk necessary to be able to fend off the mons it is supposed to check, up to Jolly Hitmonlee.

On the other hand, DD Scrafty very rarely carries Leftovers, and even if it does, it faces an uphill battle in getting enough boosts to overwhelm Venusaur while trying to survive the onslaught of Leech Seed + Giga Drain.There is plenty of time for Venusaur to get enough health back with Synthesis, so it's not even particularly pressured to use Leech Seed first. Meanwhile, it is necessary for Scrafty to aim for the OHKO as not only would the second Knock Off become substantially weaker (and with Venusaur's stream of recovery, a 2HKO becomes a lot less easy to get), if the first one knocks Venusaur into Overgrow range, the powered up Giga Drain can likely undo most of Scrafty's efforts if not kill it outright.

So yeah, Moonblast is not enough of a niche to separate Vileplume from Venusaur; the only real merits Plume has are Effect Spore and Aromatherapy, which are really, really situational compared to what Venusaur or other Pokemon have to offer.
I'm on mobile so I will make this brief: I'd rather not play mind games and synthesis sludge 50/50s, when if you lose the coinflips a boosted scrafty runs through your team.

Sure, you could have a revenge killer with strong priority, or win the coinflips, but the whole point of vileplume is you don't need any of that. With venusaur, you either need another scrafty check or great predictions, and that's just a reality.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Here is a log of the conversation that just took place in the RU room.
  1. [07:49] #dtc: Punchshroom
  2. [07:49] #dtc: why do you need speed on defensive venu
  3. [07:49] #dtc: im not sure if outspeeding honch is enough of a reason
  4. [07:49] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: isn't it for Hoopa
  5. [07:50] #dtc: u need knock off then
  6. [07:50] %Punchshroom: outspeeding Honch was a bit of a kneejerk reaction
  7. [07:50] +Solidsweeps: The opposing Tauros used Iron Head!
  8. [07:50] +Solidsweeps: It's super effective! Diancie lost 100% of its health!
  9. [07:50] +Solidsweeps: man i just got master baited
  10. [07:50] %Punchshroom: the initial spread was 176 Speed
  11. [07:50] %Punchshroom: outran Samurott and shit
  12. [07:50] #dtc: idt you even need speed honestly
  13. [07:50] #dtc: maybe just a very little bit
  14. [07:50] %Punchshroom: outspeeding Hoopa was a bonus if you have Knock Off
  15. [07:50] %Punchshroom: but tbh, that spread was constructed
  16. [07:51] %Punchshroom: when Amoonguss was still here
  17. [07:51] #dtc: i feel like 248 hp / 252 def
  18. [07:51] #dtc: is perfectly fine to use
  19. [07:51] %Punchshroom: I still feel like outspeeding +0 Scrafty
  20. [07:51] %Punchshroom: is a fairly safe benchmark
  21. [07:51] #dtc: i mean
  22. [07:51] #dtc: you dont need to outspeed +0 scrafty
  23. [07:51] %Punchshroom: at the very least
  24. [07:51] #dtc: lol
  25. [07:52] #dtc: if scrafty is +0 vs venu it loses
  26. [07:52] #dtc: scrafty also isnt that hard to check, it has a lot of awkward issues
  27. [07:52] #dtc: needs to have a team built around it
  28. [07:53] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-discussing-threats-to-mawile-flygon.3559530/
  29. [07:53] %Punchshroom: I just have this strong stigma rn
  30. [07:53] %Punchshroom: if a bulky mon can invest in enough Speed to outrun Exploud while still remaining fairly bulky, it probably should
  31. [07:53] %Punchshroom: then I noticed that it could creep a bit more to outspeed Rott and thought "why not?"
  32. [07:54] %Punchshroom: outrunning Abomasnow is a decent bonus too I guess
  33. [07:54] #dtc: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 294-346 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  34. [07:54] #dtc: i would invest enough for aboma
  35. [07:54] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: .usage1630 Abomasnow RU
  36. [07:54] %Punchshroom: hmm
  37. [07:55] #dtc: altho thats still
  38. [07:55] #dtc: quite a decent amount
  39. [07:55] %Punchshroom: Hasty Aboma actually ties with the 176 Speed Venu variant :P
  40. [07:55] FriskyDisc: Does thief work how it's description says it does?
  41. [07:55] #dtc: ok yeah
  42. [07:55] #dtc: not worth imo
  43. [07:55] #dtc: you dont even always ohko it after sr
  44. [07:55] %Punchshroom: oh
  45. [07:55] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: Usage: 1.63627%
  46. [07:55] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: okay
  47. [07:55] #dtc: i mean itll die after Sr and lo recoil
  48. [07:55] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: this is actually sad
  49. [07:55] #dtc: but that's still lame
  50. [07:56] %Punchshroom: defensive Venusaur's spread has been hard af for me to construct man
  51. [07:56] %Punchshroom: Amoong leaving didn't help things >.<
  52. [07:56] #dtc: honestly i feel like you can just get away with
  53. [07:56] #dtc: going full physically defensive lol
  54. [07:56] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: I think the problem with Venusaur
  55. [07:56] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: is that is has one moveset
  56. [07:56] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: that is just so damn good
  57. [07:57] %Punchshroom: eh, I'm just uncomfortable with the diea
  58. [07:57] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: that other sets aren't worth it
  59. [07:57] %Punchshroom: of letting that good Speed tier go to waste
  60. [07:57] %Punchshroom: when it can outspeed something offensive
  61. [07:57] %Punchshroom: *idea
  62. [07:57] #dtc: yeah but leech seed is so good on a grass/poison mon oo
  63. [07:57] #dtc: i just think leech + synth is better than subseed
  64. [07:57] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: I think
  65. [07:57] %Punchshroom: if only I could fit Knock Off alongside Leech Seed
  66. [07:58] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: the only innovation won't be found within new sets but rather just adding moves to its LO set
  67. [07:58] %Punchshroom: but yeah Leech + Synth is easily better
  68. [07:58] #dtc: RLT1 Zelfie-Kun you dont think leech seed venu has any potential?
  69. [07:58] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: I do
  70. [07:58] #dtc: like even with sigilyph, you're giving the Pursuit mon more recovery so its easier to switch in
  71. [07:58] +Solidsweeps: on defensive teams maybe
  72. [07:59] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: I would probably use something like Leaf Storm, Sludge, Leech Seed, coverage
  73. [07:59] #dtc: err nvm
  74. [07:59] #dtc: i dont think leech works like that lol
  75. [07:59] YukinonYukinoshita: sub leech seed yn
  76. [07:59] %Punchshroom: on any Venusaur bar Chlorophyll sweeper
  77. [07:59] #dtc: so Sigi is the most annoying part about subseed
  78. [07:59] %Punchshroom: always carry Synthesis
  79. [07:59] +Solidsweeps: just pair it with like mola
  80. [07:59] +Solidsweeps: who can protect
  81. [07:59] RLT1 IWasGonnaHost: Isn't sigi still immune
  82. [07:59] RLT1 IWasGonnaHost: to leech seed ._.
  83. [07:59] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: SubSeed seems outclassed by small geist
  84. [07:59] YukinonYukinoshita: yea
  85. [07:59] #dtc: yeah i realized that lol
  86. [07:59] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: which also has burns
  87. [07:59] YukinonYukinoshita: lol.
  88. [08:00] • RLT1 IWasGonnaHost clap for dtc
  89. [08:00] YukinonYukinoshita: i wish venu
  90. [08:00] YukinonYukinoshita: got pjab
  91. [08:00] YukinonYukinoshita: for sd set
  92. [08:00] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: even then
  93. [08:00] #dtc: just use sludge
  94. [08:00] #dtc: easy
  95. [08:00] %Punchshroom: even in general it'd be nice
  96. [08:00] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: I wouldn't use SD
  97. [08:00] %Punchshroom: to smack Virizion
  98. [08:00] YukinonYukinoshita: y
  99. [08:00] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: inb4 Zen
  100. [08:00] +Ryoma Nagare: !learn venusaur, curse
  101. In Gen 6, Venusaur can learn Curse only when obtained from:
  102. gen 3 egg: aggron, aggron, aron, aron, ...
  103. gen 4 egg: aggron, aggron, aron, aron, ...
  104. gen 5 egg: aggron, aggron, aron, aron, ...
  105. gen 6 egg: venusaur
  106. [08:00] +Ryoma Nagare: potential y/n
  107. [08:00] YukinonYukinoshita: lolz
  108. [08:00] %Punchshroom: eh
  109. [08:00] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: Fury Cutter Venusaur!?!?!
  110. [08:01] %Punchshroom: Torterra competes
  111. [08:01] #dtc: Punchshroom
  112. [08:01] #dtc: 24 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 162-192 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  113. [08:01] YukinonYukinoshita: I feel like scarf
  114. [08:01] %Punchshroom: even with SD
  115. [08:01] #dtc: 24 spa defensive venu yn
  116. [08:01] YukinonYukinoshita: is very unexplored
  117. [08:01] %Punchshroom: hmm
  118. [08:02] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: I would probably use Sceptile if I wanted to use Scarf
  119. [08:02] Rattled... Snakes!: Scarf was a thing
  120. [08:02] #dtc: sceptile has less bulk though
  121. [08:02] Rattled... Snakes!: 6 years ago
  122. [08:02] #dtc: grass/poison is better defensively
  123. [08:02] #dtc: it also has dual stabs
  124. [08:02] Lord Death Man: scarf is meh
  125. [08:02] Lord Death Man: scarf venu*
  126. [08:02] #dtc: lord death man what about the based
  127. [08:02] Rattled... Snakes!: Grass is a bad type to be locked into
  128. [08:02] #dtc: overgrow petal dance sweeps
  129. [08:03] YukinonYukinoshita: lol
  130. [08:03] Lord Death Man: i mean u really need
  131. [08:03] Lord Death Man: overgrow to activate
  132. [08:03] Lord Death Man: to sweep
  133. [08:03] Lord Death Man: :/
  134. [08:03] YukinonYukinoshita: what 4 moves would u run on scarf
  135. [08:03] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: I mean it also has to switch out any time it uses Leaf Storm
  136. [08:03] Rattled... Snakes!: grass has 7 resissts
  137. [08:03] Lord Death Man: leaf storm/giga drain/petal dance/sludge bomb i guess
  138. [08:03] RLT1 Zelfie-Kun: and can be way easilly played around
  139. [08:03] #dtc: sleep powder lord death man
  140. [08:03] Lord Death Man: o right
  141. [08:03] #dtc: i think the main draw of scarf venu is
  142. [08:03] Lord Death Man: i think rotom-c is probably a better scarfer and scarf rotom-c is awful
  143. [08:03] #dtc: there are some teams that rely on pressuring it w/ offensive presence
  144. [08:04] #dtc: and those plans go out of the window
  145. [08:04] #dtc: when venu has scarf
  146. [08:04] YukinonYukinoshita: yea
  147. [08:04] Lord Death Man: yeah but its weak
  148. [08:04] Lord Death Man: D:
  149. [08:04] YukinonYukinoshita: its harder to revenge
  150. [08:04] YukinonYukinoshita: if u don't have faster
  151. [08:04] Lord Death Man: its way easier to wall
  152. [08:04] YukinonYukinoshita: mons
  153. [08:04] YukinonYukinoshita: yea :(
  154. [08:04] Lord Death Man: idk
  155. [08:04] #dtc: i mean
  156. [08:04] Lord Death Man: anyways im out
  157. [08:04] #dtc: scarf mons
  158. [08:04] #dtc: are easy to wall
  159. [08:04] #dtc: in general
  160. [08:04] Lord Death Man: !dt medicham
  161. [08:04] Lord Death Man: xD
  162. [08:05] Lord Death Man: broken mon
  163. [08:05] #dtc: aside from medi.
  164. [08:05] Lord Death Man: when are we banning
  165. [08:05] #dtc: and scarf tyrant is hard for offense teams
  166. [08:05] #dtc: but defensive teams should handle it fine
  167. [08:05] Rattled... Snakes!: Scarf lee is power
  168. [08:05] YukinonYukinoshita: I rarely see scarf lee
  169. [08:05] YukinonYukinoshita: it's good tho
  170. [08:05] #dtc: well actually, scarf lee/cham shouldnt be too bad either
  171. [08:05] #dtc: also im out too
 

Punchshroom

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I'm on mobile so I will make this brief: I'd rather not play mind games and synthesis sludge 50/50s, when if you lose the coinflips a boosted scrafty runs through your team.

Sure, you could have a revenge killer with strong priority, or win the coinflips, but the whole point of vileplume is you don't need any of that. With venusaur, you either need another scrafty check or great predictions, and that's just a reality.
50/50s? Coinflips? It's as straightforward as starting off with Leech Seed (Synth if your health is too low to begin with), then spam Giga Drains and brace for impact. I don't know how Sludge Bomb even factors into the process here.

Hell, Venusaur can even try Roar to mess with Scrafty, and Scrafty isn't even inclined to attack earlier, because if Scrafty uses up its boosted Knock Off and Venusaur gets the chance to heal once Scrafty is phazed out, Scrafty has practically little to no hope of breaking through Venusaur in the future since its Knock Offs will be piss weak. The spread I used in the calc in my previous comment is not even optimized either; Venusaur can easily invest in more bulk to sponge Scrafty's hits earlier.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
50/50s? Coinflips? It's as straightforward as starting off with Leech Seed (Synth if your health is too low to begin with), then spam Giga Drains and brace for impact. I don't know how Sludge Bomb even factors into the process here.
If by 'brace for impact' you mean 'scrafty DD's to +3 and 2hkoes from there, then sure. I assumed you were talking about a confrontation scrafty doesn't just win.

punchshroom said:
Hell, Venusaur can even try Roar to mess with Scrafty, and Scrafty isn't even inclined to attack earlier, because if Scrafty uses up its boosted Knock Off and Venusaur gets the chance to heal once Scrafty is phazed out, Scrafty has practically little to no hope of breaking through Venusaur in the future since its Knock Offs will be piss weak. The spread I used in the calc in my previous comment is not even optimized either; Venusaur can easily invest in more bulk to sponge Scrafty's hits earlier.
Firstly, defensive venu is dong if it's not beating scrafty, so if roar is the scrafty-beater they should all carry it eventually.

Again, what it's coming down to is -if-. If rocks are up and you roar the wrong thing in, you might die to a +1 HJK the next time (mobile is not conducive to calcs). Considering that defensive venusaur isn't even that great against defensive wincons (except gurdurr who catches these moonblast hands), why can't you just kill the damn thing instead of clicking roar and praying?
 

phantom

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The point was to illustrate that Venusaur is still capable of beating the same things Vileplume beats while possessing more significant advantages, mainly the Speed, more useful support moves (such as Knock Off to neuter opposing Venusaur and not give Sigilyph/Hoopa a free switch-in, or Roar/Leech Seed), and slightly higher bulk. Of the Pokemon that Vileplume fairs better against (not necessarily Pokemon Venusaur is incapable of holding off), Scrafty is not a significant threat to warrant using an overall worse Pokemon, while Malamar is better off checked through other means on bulky teams (Spiritomb, Fairys). It's also worth noting that Malamar can afford to invest more special bulk, so Vileplume's Moonblast doesn't even 2HKO, so it can't apply enough pressure, while Vileplume gets pressured pretty easily with boosted Knock Offs + SR damage + limited PP recovery move, so it's not exactly the best Malamar check either since it has to spend a lot of turns clicking Synthesis and can potentially be outlasted by Malamar in the long haul. So when it comes down to it, Vileplume's notable advantages are Aromatherapy and Effect Spore, which are extremely team specific and not worth dedicating a slot to a mostly inferior Pokemon the majority of the time.

Anyway, let's move on to a different topic now and not derail the thread by focusing on an irrelevant and outclassed Pokemon.
 
Bumping this because it's been 2 months and some people have been using some different Venusaur variants aside from standard.

I've been using a defensive Venusaur set of Leech Seed / Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Synthesis on some of my balance teams. It's a very nifty soft check to a lot of the metagame, like Virizion, Hitmonlee, Jolteon, Sawk, and Magneton. This Venusaur is especially annoying for the opposing team to switch into, as Leech Seed combined with a solid defensive core allows you to play around a lot of offensive Pokemon with ease. It pairs well with good defensive Pokemon like Alomomola, Slowking, Blastoise, Registeel, and Diancie. Defensive Venusaur is irritating to wear down because it has 4 forms of recovery: Synthesis, Leech Seed, Black Sludge, and Giga Drain, so anything that gets walled by it has a lot of trouble wearing it down. The 4 forms of recovery also allow it to act as a better Scald burn absorber which is nice vs the bulky Water-types. Part of the benefit of this set is people generally play as if Venusaur is offensive, but even without the surprise value, it is still quite effective. I use a mostly physical defensive spread with a bit of Speed creep to outspeed Jellicent that speed creep Blastoise. This Venusaur set definitely works better on balance teams, as it generally doesn't offer enough role compression to be that effective on stall.

I know some other players like EonX and Laurens have also been using this Venusaur on some of their teams. I've also seen Kushalos use it with Knock Off, although I forgot which move he used Knock Off over.

As for other sets, the only variants I've really seen are from SilentVerse who used Black Sludge on an otherwise offensive Venusaur (which is alright, Black Sludge Leaf Storm is definitely better than Life Orb Giga Drain in my opinion) and Chakra who used Choice Scarf Venusaur on one of his offensive teams. Choice Scarf seems pretty hard to utilize effectively to me because being locked into a Grass-type move is undesirable, but it can be nice, especially when Venusaur is in Overgrow range.
 

EonX

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Venusaur @ Black Sludge
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 24 SpA / 16 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed

I've been in love with Defensive Venusaur for a while. Used it to ladder through suspect reqs for the Mega Lix / Ttrum stage and it is absolutely laughable how many teams are actually not prepared to handle Venusaur. On top of the 4 ways to recover HP, Venusaur also has a nice secondary Poison typing that makes it immune to Toxic, which is the bane of many defensive Pokemon in the tier. Burn? No problem, Leech Seed will cover it. Sleep? It's immune (bar Yawn Uxie) Knock Off? Still got 3 ways to recover. It is incredibly easy to just throw out Leech Seed every time Venusaur comes in because Grass-types are never going to want to switch into it and the only other Pokemon immune to Leech Seed is Sigilyph. From there, Venusaur can just switch out to a teammate that deals with whatever the opponent just sent in. What really sells defensive Venusaur for me though (on top of the amazing recovery) is what Leech Seed does for some of Venusaur's best teammates. Diancie can easily check Fire-types that threaten Venusaur, but struggles with holding up over the course of a long match due to no reliable recovery. Well, Leech Seed isn't reliable recovery, but considering it gives the HP of the opponent to Diancie directly, it makes life for Diancie a lot easier. The same can be said of offensive tanks (Band Rhyperior, Mega Camerupt) as the extra recovery can give them an extra switch in or two that they otherwise wouldn't have. The EV spread I have is just the baseline to use, but as DTC alluded to, it is advised to run some extra Speed to make sure Venusaur outspeeds Jellicent and Blastoise. Defensive Venusaur is just a really cool Pokemon that I feel most people overlook because of how solid it is offensively. Speaking of, defensive sets CAN soft check offensive sets due to the passive recovery from Black Sludge keeping defensive Venusaur from using Synthesis quite as much, especially if the offensive Venusaur is suffering from a burn.

Recommended defensive partners:
Diancie
Alomomola
Slowking
Registeel

Recommended offensive partners:
Mega Camerupt
CB Rhyperior
Emboar
Aerodactyl
 
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