Falsely Accused of Uber: Darkrai Discussion

[ADH]

#491 Darkrai
Base Stats: 70 HP / 90 Atk / 90 Def / 135 SAtk / 90 SDef / 125 Spd
Ability: Bad Dreams (opponent loses 12.5% HP each turn they're asleep)

Notable Physical Movepool
Pursuit
Payback
Focus Punch
Brick Break
Drain Punch
Aerial Ace
Shadow Claw
Rock Slide
X-Scissor
Poison Jab

Notable Special Movepool
Dark Pulse
Ice Beam
Thunderbolt
Charge Beam
Psychic
Shadow Ball
Sludge Bomb
Focus Blast

Notable Support Movepool
Dark Void
Embargo
Taunt
Calm Mind
Thunder Wave
Will-o-Wisp
Swords Dance

There's been, like, NO discussion about Darkrai since February, so I'm bringing back the discussion so that we can examine Darkrai as possibly NOT being uber. Few people have the game as of yet and people are already screaming that this thing can't possibly be OU. Silliness. Same nonsense as Tyranitar being uber IMO. Anyways, let's look at the things it can do.

Darkrai @ Leftovers
Nature: Hasty Nature (+Spd -Def)
EVs: 116 Atk / 252 Spd / 140 SAtk
Trait: Bad Dreams
-Calm Mind
-Dark Pulse
-Thunderbolt
-Focus Punch

Hits a lot of stuff decently well with this set. Focus Punch is primarily for Blissey and Snorlax, who could give you trouble otherwise. There's few resistors to the set.

Darkrai @ Choice Specs
Nature: Timid (+Spd -Atk)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Trait: Bad Dreams
-Dark Pulse
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Focus Blast

Nothing resists the set, but Blissey shrugs off Focus Blasts decently, along with everything else.

Darkrai @ Leftovers
Nature: Timid (+Spd -Atk)
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Spd / 160 SAtk
Trait: Bad Dreams
-Dark Hall
-Dark Pulse
-Focus Punch
-Thunder Wave / Will-o-Wisp

Double status. Fastest sleeper in the game, and the trait eats up their HP. Wrecks sleep talkers.

Now, there's of course other sets for this, but let's look at the arguments for not having Darkrai be uber.

1. Azelf, while slower, is more dangrerous thanks to higher Atk and Explosion. The closest thing to a perfect counter is CB Weavile with Pursuit. Azelf was once considered possibly uber, but is now accepted as a good OU.

2. Darkrai is not nearly as dangerous as he would have been without the Sleep Clause, but it is admittedly a strong counter to Sleep Talkers.

3. 70 / 90 / 90 Defenses don't let it shrug off the hits.

4. Darkrai needs to carry Psychic so that Technician Hitmontop (Mach Punch) and CB Heracross (Megahorn / Close Combat, high defenses) don't utterly murder him.

Really, the only reason to relegate him to ubers is because of the trait Bad Dreams, but the opponent taking 12.5% after being put to sleep isn't horrid. Sleep Clause still keeps Darkrai in check since he can only put to sleep one opponent at a time.

 

[ΩDonut]

Bad Dreams deals 12.5%, not 25%.

 

[ADH]

Bad Dreams deals 12.5%, not 25%.

Fixed. Even more reason that Darkrai's not as bad as he first looked.

 

[Surgo]

You missed one of the most important sets in your listing.

Darkrai @Leftovers
Calm Mind
Dark Pulse
Substitute
Dark Hall

This essentially works like Luna (Jynx, CM/IB/LK/Sub) did in Advance. All the same arguments for the Jynx set apply to Darkrai as well.

Offensively, Darkrai can do just about everything Gengar can do, and can do it even better with its absolutely superior stats.

 

[BlueMeanie]

Offensively, Darkrai can do just about everything Gengar can do, and can do it even better with its absolutely superior stats.

So? One of the biggest reasons to use gengar is his not being hit by 3 different types, and not being hit by toxic. Bad argument.

 

[ihcati]

Now, there's of course other sets for this, but let's look at the arguments for not having Darkrai be uber.

1. Azelf, while slower, is more dangrerous thanks to higher Atk and Explosion. The closest thing to a perfect counter is CB Weavile with Pursuit. Azelf was once considered possibly uber, but is now accepted as a good OU.

2. Darkrai is not nearly as dangerous as he would have been without the Sleep Clause, but it is admittedly a strong counter to Sleep Talkers.

3. 70 / 90 / 90 Defenses don't let it shrug off the hits.

4. Darkrai needs to carry Psychic so that Technician Hitmontop (Mach Punch) and CB Heracross (Megahorn / Close Combat, high defenses) don't utterly murder him.

Really, the only reason to relegate him to ubers is because of the trait Bad Dreams, but the opponent taking 12.5% after being put to sleep isn't horrid. Sleep Clause still keeps Darkrai in check since he can only put to sleep one opponent at a time.

1. Darkrai has 135 Sp.Atk compared to Azelf's 125 so Darkrai hits harder from the special side, and most pokemon will have a hard time shrugging that type of a hit off. The only ones that can are Blissey and Lax who eat a FP, which will still put away Blissey almost as fast as
Explosion.

2. True but he can still induce sleep with Dark Void nearly every time he uses it with that 80% accuracy and that 125 Speed effectively removing his counters.

3. I agree but things like Azelf, and Weavile are much more fragile with a larger variety of weaknesses and are still hugely deadly.

4. Nobody uses Hitmontop, and nobody would ever switch in Hera to Darkrai for fear of a dark Void of a kickass T-Bolt from a 135 Sp. Atk

Yea I think Darkrai is uber. But on the bright side he is one hell of a cool uber.

 

[Surgo]

So? One of the biggest reasons to use gengar is his not being hit by 3 different types, and not being hit by toxic. Bad argument.

Notice how I said "offensively"; I was specifically ignoring the defensive side of things; of which Gengar probably has a bit better of a deal but there are arguments for both sides.

 

[Bliksem]

Sleep Clause/Sleep Talk does not counter Darkrai any more than it does Gengar or Crobat (who happens to be the fastest sleep). Having an accurate sleep move is advantageous, but it isn't Darkrai's *only* trick. It has Alakazam/Porygon Z's special attack, Weavile's speed, and a movepool that makes Gengar wet its ghostly pants. Not to mention that while 70/90/90 isn't the best for tanking, it *is* better than all the Pokemon I've mentioned thus far. Not to mention that CB Sleep Talking can only get one hit off before failing.

For it to be not be considered uber for the reason that Heracross counters it is somewhat flawed logic, in my opinion. I'm pretty sure OU Blissey counters a fair few uber Pokemon as well, and Metagross has a decent appearance there, too. It's fully possible for a Darkrai to carry a move to counter Heracross' appearance, and while that devolves in to Pokemon beats Pokemon with move, I think that it's fully possible in this situation.

So in conclusion, Darkrai's stats, ability, and capability to do multiple things puts it at the uber level.

 

[Hyra]

Hm... He's definitely not as broken as CB'd Pursuit. I would say he fits in Tyranitar's tier. This might be the CSer that can actually survive a Pursuit. Obviously, the Luna set does cause problems, but any Physical Fighting type besides Medicham beats it.

Eh, it actually doesn't seems so broken when compared it TTar.

 

[Marowak]

So? One of the biggest reasons to use gengar is his not being hit by 3 different types, and not being hit by toxic. Bad argument.

He said OFFENSIVELY, but you talked about the "defense".

@Topic: Allowing this in OU might not be a bad Idea, as he has the bad Moovepool-Syndrom.... 5 Slots would be nice, but 4... Just a better Jynx, imo....

 

[BlueMeanie]

Notice how I said "offensively"; I was specifically ignoring the defensive side of things; of which Gengar probably has a bit better of a deal but there are arguments for both sides.

Yah, I know... I don't see any real reason to make a "half" argument, you should have left that out.

 

[ADH]

The reason people have trouble shrugging off Azelf's hits is because it has Nasty Plot. Few things take +2 hits from 125 SAtk neutral nature well, but Darkrai only has Calm Mind and 135 SAtk. Azelf's Explosion is decidedly a better special wall counter than Focus Punch since Explosion hits Cresselia too, along with OHKOing Blissey very easily since it has a superior 125 Atk.

Darkrai may do things very well, but it can be countered. Dark Hall certainly puts something to sleep, but there are quite a few counters still. He's by no means as broken as any of the guaranteed ubers that we know of, like Mewtwo / Groudon / Kyogre / Lugia, he just needs some extra attention in team-building like Tyranitar does.

Vital Spirit / Insomnia works out well for countering Darkrai's Dark Hall, and you can always run Safeguard on your team to prevent it and double-status, which I've oft considered because of the popularity of double status Gengar. Besides, status isn't all that bad considering we now have more useful Aromatherapy Pokemon in the game, and Natural Cure is an excellent option as well.

 

[UrNightmare]

1. Darkrai has 135 Sp.Atk compared to Azelf's 125 so Darkrai hits harder from the special side, and most pokemon will have a hard time shrugging that type of a hit off. The only ones that can are Blissey and Lax who eat a FP, which will still put away Blissey almost as fast as Explosion. Unlike Azelf, He does NOT have scheme, only calm mind.

2. True but he can still induce sleep with Dark Void nearly every time he uses it with that 80% accuracy and that 125 Speed effectively removing his counters. Yep

3. I agree but things like Azelf, and Weavile are much more fragile with a larger variety of weaknesses and are still hugely deadly. Porygon-Z

4. Nobody uses Hitmontop, and nobody would ever switch in Hera to Darkrai for fear of a dark Void of a kickass T-Bolt from a 135 Sp. Atk True

Yea I think Darkrai is uber. But on the bright side he is one hell of a cool uber.

Well it will be probably outclassed by mewtwo in special sweeping, so I'm not quite sure where he belongs.

 

[Surgo]

Yah, I know... I don't see any real reason to make a "half" argument,

Maybe because it's true? You can stop telling me what I "should" and "shouldn't" post now and actually address the argument of "Offensively, Darkrai can do just about everything Gengar can do".

 

[Mastadi]

1. Azelf, while slower, is more dangrerous thanks to higher Atk and Explosion. The closest thing to a perfect counter is CB Weavile with Pursuit. Azelf was once considered possibly uber, but is now accepted as a good OU.

You forgot that Darkrai is able to 2HKO it, so if it uses Dark Pulse on the switch it's gg. Also, if somebody doesn't use explosion, you can survive the Flamethrower. Darkrai needs 40 HP Ev's to have a (Very small) chance to survive a neutral nature max attack azelf's explosion. On no ev's in attack on azelf, it's always 2hko. Lol, 2hko from explosion.

 

[Bliksem]

The reason people have trouble shrugging off Azelf's hits is because it has Nasty Plot. Few things take +2 hits from 125 SAtk neutral nature well, but Darkrai only has Calm Mind and 135 SAtk. Azelf's Explosion is decidedly a better special wall counter than Focus Punch since Explosion hits Cresselia too, along with OHKOing Blissey very easily since it has a superior 125 Atk.

Darkrai may do things very well, but it can be countered. Dark Hall certainly puts something to sleep, but there are quite a few counters still. He's by no means as broken as any of the guaranteed ubers that we know of, like Mewtwo / Groudon / Kyogre / Lugia, he just needs some extra attention in team-building like Tyranitar does.

Vital Spirit / Insomnia works out well for countering Darkrai's Dark Hall, and you can always run Safeguard on your team to prevent it and double-status, which I've oft considered because of the popularity of double status Gengar. Besides, status isn't all that bad considering we now have more useful Aromatherapy Pokemon in the game, and Natural Cure is an excellent option as well.

The only way Azelf can defeat Blissey is through Explosion, which I can't consider a *counter* to anything, because you lose Azelf in the process. Darkrai doesn't suffer that, and Cresselia can't wall it due to Dark Pulse.

Dark Void isn't what makes Darkrai uber; it's just a bonus. Darkrai can just as easily *not* carry Dark Void. Insomnia Pokemon either all fall to Dark Pulse or Thunderbolt/Ice Beam. This Pokemon does enough with its base stats that it really doesn't *need* to increase its stats, though it does have that ability with Calm Mind.

Darkrai can be countered, but there is no one Pokemon that is a surefire counter to it because Darkrai is so varied that it can pull off anything that it wants.

 

[lilyhollow]

You forgot that Darkrai is able to 2HKO it, so if it uses Dark Pulse on the switch it's gg. Also, if somebody doesn't use explosion, you can survive the Flamethrower. Darkrai needs 40 HP Ev's to have a (Very small) chance to survive a neutral nature max attack azelf's explosion. On no ev's in attack on azelf, it's always 2hko. Lol, 2hko from explosion.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Azelf possibly being a bigger threat than Darkrai, not necessarily a threat to Darkrai.

And yeah, while this guy is cool and simply fails in ubers, he is and will always be the best sleeper in OU and will dominate, IMO.

 

[Surgo]

Darkrai needs 40 HP Ev's to have a (Very small) chance to survive a neutral nature max attack azelf's explosion. On no ev's in attack on azelf, it's always 2hko. Lol, 2hko from explosion.

Your damage calculations are quite off. Explosion quarters the target's defense and halves your own attack, thus it "essentially" has a base power of 500, not 250. A more accurate calculation of that would be:
174 attack vs. 54 defense, 250 power, times 1.00: 576 - 678 (target hp: 281 - 344)

 

[Bliksem]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Azelf possibly being a bigger threat than Darkrai, not necessarily a threat to Darkrai.

And yeah, while this guy is cool and simply fails in ubers, he is and will always be the best sleeper in OU and will dominate, IMO.

How does he fail in ubers, again? Dark Pulse 2HKOs (with a chance of a OHKO) 0/0 Mewtwo and forces Mewtwo to be Timid. Ice Beam 2HKOs Groudon. Dark Pulse 2HKO's max HP/min SDef Lugia. Ice Beam OHKOs Rayquaza. And this is all without a Calm Mind. A Darkrai with Dark Void/Thunderbolt, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam and Calm Mind could *easily* hold its own in ubers. It could just as easily replace Calm Mind with Focus Punch to fend off Blissey, giving a version of Breloom's Spore Punching.

 

[lilyhollow]

>_>

I'm going to go ahead and back off of this discussion because I know next to nothing about ubers. That's what I get for making retarded assumptions I guess. <_<

 

[Jibaku]

Ok first off.
1) He's my favorite pogey. Ever. Don't touch. Ever

And uhh...
Needs more Focus Punch/Thunder/Dark Pulse/Dark Void Darkrai @ Life Orb. hasty Nature. You could use Expert Belt if you hate the Life Orb recoil, but Life Orbed Dark Pulse 2HKOs Rayquaza

 

[Edux]

Your damage calculations are quite off. Explosion quarters the target's defense and halves your own attack, thus it "essentially" has a base power of 500, not 250. A more accurate calculation of that would be:
174 attack vs. 54 defense, 250 power, times 1.00: 576 - 678 (target hp: 281 - 344)

Isn't the same as halving foe's Defense???

Anyway, i knew there was something wrong with that calc, i mean 70 HP, 90 Defense and only 40 HP Evs to barely survive one?, no way :P

Don't forget that Bad Dreams completelly nullifies Leftovers recovery, so even the best Special Wall around (Blissey) fears the All Special Attack Darkrai.

Dark Void + Focus Punch (Mixed Darkrai) is such a good combo, with only a mere 20% chance of failing (Dark Void accuracy)

Even with Sleep Clause Darkrai is deadly as hell, 135 SpA and 125 Speed, average defenses, Boltbeam, cool STAB, high accuracy Sleep Move, Will-o-Wisp, and even Haze!, we are facing a completely varied Pokemon.

I compare Darkrai with the Lati@s in some ways (no Stats +140, but Ubers as hell :P)

 

[Bliksem]

Ok first off.
1) He's my favorite pogey. Ever. Don't touch. Ever

Yes... except for the first Ever. I have more favorites.

But anyways, yeah, I don't see Darkrai working well in OU. For one, he'd almost always outclass Gengar, being more reliable and whatnot, though harder to bring in.

 

[Akayfortyseven]

Awesome pokemon, that, on second looks, isnt as broken as I originally thought. Good design as well. I like Jibakus set, imo choice sets just ruin its great support options.

 

[Matt]

Seems like another good sweeper in a game full of good sweepers, but I've never seen it in battle so I can't really say I know it is/isn't broken. I will say though, that there are a lot of crazy Pokemon this gen and I wouldn't be surprised if Darkrai was merely on the same level as some of the things we've already seen. We *are* still doing the full "metagame test", are we not?