Ghoul King, yeah, that's true. Perhaps counterproductive is the better way to phrase it (not necessarily true, mind you). But it is definitely an odd concept. Intentionally underspending your opponent so that you can guarantee that you will outspeed them. Like trick room, only weirder, because you want to still be faster than them, at least after your speed is doubled. It's just... Backwards. It's super cool though. Interesting thing, I can see 252 Spe becoming pretty uncommon for this reason exactly, but then some stuff will definitely want max speed to just straight up kill stuff.
Maybe "counterintuitive" is the word you're looking for?
IsaSimple said:
As for Water and Mud Sport, however they may seem fairly mediocre, they have their uses as preferential options for stall.
Yes Rain halves the damage of Fire moves like Water Sport does, but do you really want to boost the opponents Water moves? This meta actually makes stall quite strong, as there will be very few boosting items like LO and such, but giving a specs/band boost to opposing Water moves isn't helpful.
Mud Sport has its uses too. On stall it doesn't even need to be on an electric weak pokemon. An extra free resistance for the entire team, to a type which is hard to cover when paired with Ice attacks is very nice. Also works against Electric Terrain and Thunder on Rain.
Double-checked: they're better than I thought. They reduce their respective damage by
2/3rds, which is actually pretty impressive. That means a doubly super-effective off-STAB coverage hit of the reduced type is actually weaker than an equivalent neutrally effective STAB move.
They're still pretty narrow and I suspect weather Plates will remain the preferred choice, but they're not as lame as I'd thought.
I think Weather Plate + Weather-Dependent Speed Doubling Ability is the obvious route to go, but Swift Swim/Chlorophyll/Sand Rush Pokemon aren't exactly disgustingly powerful in their own right (Okay, Excadrill is pretty damn powerful) -- they might still prefer a Life Orb or a Choice item. Moreover, going fast isn't as uniformly good as it is in standard, what with Trick Room flying around. And if you happen to lead with a Pokemon like that and your opponent sends out a Mind Plate holder... well, you've just lost momentum. I think a more optimal Weather strategy would be to use at least one Weather-setting plate on a bulky pivot, which can run minimum / relatively little speed to not be troubled quite as much by Trick Room. They also beat opposing offensive weather setters in getting up their own weather.
Magic Room will only block you if it gets set before you try to set your weather. They need to outspeed you to block you, which admittedly most Weather-based Speedsters have pretty meh Speed on their own, but it's an additional wrinkle.
Though I also think you're underestimating the potential of stuff like Swift Swim Relicanth annihilating stuff with Head Smash.
Rain: Vaporeon has a slate of utility moves in Heal Bell, Roar, and Wish, along with Baton Pass for straight pivoting. Rotom-Wash brings Will-O-Wisp, its signature defensive capabilities, and a more offensive switching move to the table. Slowbro and Slowking have their own typing uses and Regenerator. Seismitoad can run Water Absorb to fuck with opposing rain, along with getting Stealth Rock. Tentacruel gives Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes support, as well as Rain Dish for passive recovery and a Grass neutrality to help against opposing sun.
Zapdos is also worth commentary, as it appreciates the ability to freely throw out Thunder, or it can be used to Volt Switch out to your abuser, and it doesn't share weaknesses with your actual Rain abusers. It can even U-Turn out if you're concerned about Electric-immune Pokemon switching in, and is bulky with reliable recovery.
More generally, you can provide it to myriad Pokemon that appreciate protection from Fire or otherwise combo well with a Rain team while having either U-Turn or Volt Switch. (Or Baton Pass, or Parting Shot) There's also a
ton of Pokemon with Thunder that are unusual -Azelf could lead with Splash Plate, drop Stealth Rock or lob a Thunder, and then U-Turn out or Explode to clear the way if your team has incredible offensive pressure. Jirachi is much the same, but bulkier (Albeit slower) and actually appreciating weakening Fire moves. (Also it can't Explode) Or Doom Desire to pressure enemies -Doom Desire, U-Turn out, slap them silly with your Swift Swimmers or Dry Skinners or whatever. Or Wish pass and then U-Turn out, giving your abuser room to switch in safely.
In general I'd keep in mind the various non-Water non-Electric Pokemon that could be amazing helping a Rain team by setting Rain. Especially since there's also Hurricane to keep in mind: Tornadus-Therian with Splash Plate gets reliable Hurricane, can U-Turn out to allies, and has Regenerator, all while resisting the Grass moves Water types fear and being immune to the Ground move Electric types fear.
Sand: Gliscor is probably the prime choice here: Sand Veil is silly for generating free turns, and Gliscor has a slate of moves such as Stealth Rock, Defog, U-Turn, Roost, and the coveted Knock Off to round out its moveset. Regirock becomes painfully bulky in the sand, providing Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave support. Garchomp has a bit less utility than Gliscor, but keeps that infuriating Sand Veil and can phaze opponents with Dragon Tail, though it is fast enough that sufficiently slow SS/Chloro/Sand Rush users might underspeed. Cradily gets a recovery move and its Storm Drain would likely provide great utility for Sand teams; Grass typing gives neutrality against opposing Chlorophyllers. Hippowdon, which can just use its natural Sand Stream, could provide crucial Iron Plate support for sand teams, while Tyranitar is probably best off with the good old Smooth Rock.
As a side note for Sand teams, the presence of easy Gravity support and of Grassy Terrain users means that Grass-types are really going to be the biggest thorn (ayy) in Sand's side. I would recommend adding appropriate coverage where you can find it.
I don't see much point to trying to abuse Sand Veil this way, personally (Gliscor is probably better off sticking to its usual Poison Heal Toxic Orb), but I absolutely agree pretty much everything else here. Archeops is also mildly interesting with a Stone Plate, since it helps compensate for its terrible bulk and it can U-Turn out to your primary Sand abusers, providing Sand a decent pivoting Sand setter at last. There's also a small pool of Ground or Steel options for U-Turning Sand setter, such as Landorus-Therian, but I'm not sure it's worth it to them.
Sun: Heatran is Fire's only appealing Stealth Rock setter, and with its typing, anti-opposing-Sun ability, and defensive prowess, it really stands out as the best sun supporter. Victini has a pivoting move and is disgustingly powerful while having some bulk (but it's a bit fast), while Rotom-Heat is a niche option if you need a Levitator or an Electric-type or whatever. An alternative is to put Flame Plate on a Grass-type, which puts it at risk to Fire coverage, but gives you a better matchup against Sand and Rain. Cradily straight-up has Water Absorb, so it can mess up rain even without its preferred Sun, and gets a Special Defense bonus in the sand. That's speculation, though.
Celebi, Jumpluff, and Whimsicott all have U-Turn and a decent/high amount of Speed, though in Whimsicott's case it's probably vastly better off running the Meadow Plate and Nature Power than Solar Beam, but Celebi in particular can be fairly lethal, while Jumpluff's access to Infiltrator is noteworthy. The big winner here is Victreebel, whom is the only Pokemon in the entire game to have simultaneous access to Weather Ball and Chlorophyll (Venusaur can get both, but not at the same time) which gives it an impressive offensive combination, actually. (Heatran, Dragons, and Fire types in general are something of a problem, but most Dragons and non-Heatran fire types can be taken out with Sludge Bomb. Add Hidden Power Ground and Heatran dies horribly) It also gets Growth and Synthesis, though the former is the main one of relevance to my mind, since it allows Victreebel to use Chansey as setup fodder. (+6 252+ SpA Victreebel Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 274-324 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO)
... overall though Sun seems a bit harder pressed. There's tons of non-Grass, non-Fire Pokemon that get Solar Beam to be unconventional, but most of them are utter garbage, way too Physically oriented, or have better things to be doing with their time, so Sun doesn't have an equivalent ability to have unconventional-yet-viable secondary options to Rain, especially since it doesn't have anything equivalent to Hurricane. Cresselia is hte only thing that stands out to me as maybe being a viable choice (Though whether it would run Solar Beam is another matter entirely), specifically because it would actually
very much appreciate Moonlight becoming 2/3rds healing.
Now, having devoted five paragraphs to weather, I'm here to tell you that I think Iron Plate-assisted Ground spam is going to be the Thing To Beat in this meta. If you can take out opposing Grass/Bug-types and Meadow Plate holders, the opponent will be very hard-pressed to take powerful Earthquakes and Earth Powers. Traditional Flying-type or levitating checks to Ground-types will be nullified by gravity, forcing defensive playstyles to get a lot more predictable. It also meshes well with both Sand and Trick Room, meaning that you can't rely on outspeeding or Trick Rooming your way out of it.
Something to keep in mind is that Edgequake is extremely common, and Bug types mostly suck. It's largely going to be on a few key Grass types like Tangrowth to potentially hold back Ground-Gravity shenanigans, not Bug types. (Scizor is one of the only Bug Pokemon that is bulky, has recovery, and has a non-awful typing) Which leads nicely into your commentary on Camerupt. An additional point to consider regarding Mega Camerupt is that, if you're assuming Gravity support, there's literally no reason to run Flamethrower over Fire Blast.
EDIT: Check out a spread of 252 HP / 84 Def / 168+ SpD on Stone Plate Regirock; this comes close to equalizing its defenses in the sand. Do an all-vs-one calc of it in the damage calculator and see just how little can reliably 2HKO this thing; now consider that many of those will prefer to carry a Plate and won't have that boosted damage output. It is almost guaranteed to drop a Thunder Wave and then Stealth Rock even against fearsome attacking leads. Or maybe I'm just geeking out over a bad sand setter because I love Regirock. Who knows.
Regirock is the friggin' best, and Assault Vest Sand Stream Regirock is actually viable in Almost Any Ability. This isn't AAA, and you're not getting that Assault Vest, but even so.
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A broader point I meant to comment on earlier is that shuffling is going to be a risky thing to do. Say your opponent puts a Gravity setter in front of your shuffler, who U-Turns out to their Trick Room setter, and you force them out to... their (Ready to Mega) Camerupt. Oops.
Of course you may alternatively cause them to disable a effect they want up, eg their Mind Plate Pokemon U-Turns out and then promptly gets forced back in, turning Trick Room off, but you can't really count on that. Much more likely is that you end up actively helping them!
