First RMT - UU Rain with a Johto feel

[TUskate]

Yo Smogon, this is my first RMT here. This teams is a Rain Dance-based team for the NuU enviroment that was born yesterday. It's meant for both Shoddy and Wifi, originally it was just being tested for Wifi, but after my rating started actually doing something (rather then some silly test teams) I decided to actually work the ladder a bit. So go ahead and give me advice, I'd be open to switching team members, but I want to maintain the basic structure of the team. The one problem I think I have is a lack of another rain abuser or rain utility pokemon. Let me know what you guys think! I thought it was very cool that it was almost a mono-Johto team!

Changes in bold.

The version you guys see below is version 4: RegiRain

LEAD:

Crobat - Jolly - Inner Focus w/Damp Rock
120 Hp/ 136 Attack/ 252 Speed
Taunt
Rain Dance
Brave Bird
Roost

The closest thing NuU can offer as a "perfect lead". Generally I always lead off with Taunt, except in a situation were I will obviously be attacked, like Ambipom. Interestingly enough, I don't always set up Rain Dance on my first turns with Crobat. If I Taunt and disable something like a Froslass or enemy Crobat, I immediately switch Steelix to get the Rocks up before I set up Rain Dance and start the sweep. This is often important because Stealth Rocks punishes opponents who think they can stall out my Rain Dance. Also Brave Bird > U-turn, as it allows Crobat to function as an excellent revenge killer.

RAIN SWEEPERS:

Qwilfish - Adamant - Swift Swim w/Life Orb
160 Hp/252 Attack/96 Speed
Waterfall
Explosion
Poison Jab
Taunt

Qwilfish is a very underrated Rain Dance sweeper. I actually had some kid write "Lol Qwilfish" before it finished off two of his pokemon with a Waterfall followed by an Explosion. In a perfect situation, after Crobat sets up Rain Dance, Qwilfish is the first sweeper I bring in, mainly because of Uxie and Mespirit, who at full health, effectively wall Ludicolo. If it's a tough situation for Ludicolo, like the Pixies, Clefable or Chansey, I'll usually explode. This generally opens the door for Ludicolo to sweep through the majority of my opponents team. However, Qwilfish is generally underestimated by opponents which at times will allow him to Swords Dance, allowing him to sweep through opposing teams with Waterfall and Poison Jab. Another bonus of Qwilfish is that it's a grounded Poison who can absorb the T-Spikes, which helps Ludicolo sweep (The rest of my team doesn't give a fuck about them.)

I haven't completely given up on SD Qwilfish, but I'm now in love with the Taunt version. I've learned to hate status with this fast paced rain team, especially Thunder Wave. Incoming Clefables and Milotics are shut down and then 2hko'd while they can do little back.

Ludicolo - Modest - Swift Swim w/Life Orb
4 Defense/ 252 Special Attack/ 252 Speed
Surf
Grass Knot
Ice Beam
Rain Dance

Very standard special Ludicolo sweeper. I'm very pleased with this guy, he usually nets 2 kills minimum per match. He's the focus of what I'm setting up Rain Dance for. Really I don't see me changing anything here, even though one interesting thought popped into my head regarding my Manetric problem, Hidden Power Ground. But If I did that I would want to put Rain Dance on another pokemon, the only spot I could possibly fit it is on Qwilfish over Swords Dance, but I don't think he's bulky enough to handle that job.

I doubt it, but should I consider a different special-based rain sweeper like Omastar? Just something to think about, even though generally Ludicolo has been very successful.

Kabutops - Adamant - Swift Swim w/Life Orb
48 Hp/252 Attack/208 Speed
Swords Dance
Waterfall
Stone Edge
Aerial Ace

The last move is a toss up because the both let me beat Clefable, but Sub is definitely better for fucking up Shaymin. I'll test both. The 208 Speed is to outpace Timid Scarf Typhlosion (not sure if the standard is Modest or Timid...).

At the suggestion of Imran, I realized that Azumarril was really just slowing my team down, when I should have been keeping the offensive pressure up. Kabutops helps me do that. It's also a great switch in to Typhlosion's Eruption with it's X4 resistance. I like the flow of the team a lot more with Kabutops.

Substitute is gone because after a SD, Stone Edge okhos Shaymin, and Waterfall ohkos even Bold 252/252 Clefable. Aerial Ace is now in the fourth slot because it ohkos Poliwrath and Toxicroak, who resist Water + Rock. Quagsire resists that combo as well, but my other Swift Swimmers deal with Quag well.

SUPPORT:

Registeel - Impish - Clear Body w/Damp Rock
252 Hp/56 Defense/200 Special Defense
Rain Dance
Iron Head
Explosion
Stealth Rock

I actually think this set could work out quite nicely because like I've stated above, I often find myself switching to Registeel right after Crobat Taunts the opponent, and then setting up SR and switching back to Crobat to get rain going. Now I can do this without switching. Either of the three attacking options look solid.

CLEANER:

Staraptor - Jolly - Intimidate w/Life Orb
4 Hp/ 252 Attack/ 252 Speed
Return
Roost
Close Combat
Brave Bird

Originally this was another support pokemon. I've tried an Psych Up Umbreon to beat Calm Minders, but then I just wasn't encountering enough of them to justify using Umbreon. The second supporter was a Bold Rotom that could set up more rain if necessary and spread a little status. However I often found that if I blew my rainy load to early, without taking out enough of the opposing team's members I had to stall out and hope. Not anymore though. It's been said a thousand times before but CBRaptor tears through teams in a big way. I almost exclusively use Return. Some highlights include 2HKO's on Claydols and Gligars who think they are going to take a Brave Bird. Truth of the matter is I almost never use Brave Bird. Close Combat is very useful for the Steels. It may be suspect-material, but it's a great addition to the team. I switched Choice Band with Life Orb because it helps Staraptor accomplish his cleaning role better.

However, I would be willingly to try out other cleaner/support option if you guys have any good ideas. Having only two rain dancers can be a problem and sometimes Qwilfish gets left out to dry, thankfully though his base 85 speed renders him still useful.

Team problems/threats:

Medicham - Especially Focus Sash lead versions. It usually goes something like this...Rain Dance (Crobat is dead), Qwilfish attacks (Qwilfish is dead), Ludicolo attacks finally killing Medicham. This is partially for my own personal reference because this team has no real way to deal with this guy. It's really only the leads, because non-lead versions are usually choiced and get swept up in the rain. I've had especially retarded experiences were I end up losing Crobat, Registeel and Ludicolo without ever setting up rain or finishing off Medicham. So if someone has a solution other then this let me know, but I know it's probably not going to happen without changing a team member and I'm really not willing to do that. One option that strikes me is to run Aqua Jet.

Staraptor - Usually lead versions hurt me the most because they can ohko Crobat, so I really have a choice of attacking or setting up Rain Dance. I usually try and do as much damage as possible to lead off with, often sacrificing Crobat. However, I'm beginning to think the best solution here would be to switch to and sacrifice Staraptor, just to get that early game intimidate drop. I don't know, I really need help with this one. Against smart opponents, I'll usually have to deal with Staraptor coming in multiple times to Intimidate Kabutops and Qwilfish. It's really annoying. Seriously 4 of the 8 losses the current version of this team have suffered came from the same team and 3 more of those losses from a Medicham leading team.

Previous team members:
- Standard Steelix
- SD Qwilfish
- Resttalk Azumarril
- Crappy support options

How the team plays:

This is generally a very fast paced team. Crobat usually Taunts, sets up Rain Dance, then attempts to kill itself/dent the opposing team with Brave Bird, eventually killing itself and sneaking in Ludicolo or Qwilfish without harm. If I get an opportunity to get Steelix in and set up SR before the Rain Dancing I will. I generally don't have much trouble with opposing Weather teams, as Abomasnow has to decide weather it wants to stay in and die to Crobat or switching out and let me set up Rain Dance. I usually go to Qwilfish to nail Aboma with a Poision Jab when it inevitably switches back in to hurt my Rain. Against Sunny Day teams I usually just sacrifice something then switch in Crobat who sets up Rain Dance and takes a resisted fire attack. My current issue is that I'm very very hesitant to switch in Qwilfish right after Rain Dance is set up, because for starters, it just isn't that Bulky and secondly, Ludicolo really rips through teams that aren't prepared so he rather have the 5 + turns of rain that Crobat set up. The team also could potentially benefit from a priority move, and another pokemon to set up rain. I considered changing Azumarril's moveset to include Aqua Jet and Rain Dance, but I have a really hard time giving up the offensive and defensive power that the current set affords. The other thing that is nice about this team is that Toxic Spikes really do nothing to me, and just by viture of Taunt on Crobat I keep a lot of entry hazzards off the field.

Thanks for taking the time to review the team everyone! Btw I've been playing under Boomerthecat on Shoddy for those of you who may have played me.

Notes to self: ALWAYS RAIN DANCE AGAINST MEDICHAM LEADS.

Record for current incarnation of this team (V.4 Registeel), Shoddy: 80 - 30
1/29: 1427
1/30: 1483
1/31: DNP
2/1: 1463 (11-9 coupled with not playing for a day)
2/2: (Hitmonlee testing period) 1 - 3


Fuck yes my current Conservative Estimate Rating is nearly 1500. It's currently 1483, so I should reach 1500 and the top 50 on the UU leaderboard soon. I'm a little bummed now because at one point my record for this team was 44 - 4, then I stayed up all night playing like the exact same teams that totally walled me, just so I could get to 1500 quickly. But then I took like 8 losses from two teams, it sucked much. Yay! Just took over the 50th spot on the UU leaderboard, temporarily, but still I'm very happy I did that in like two days.

Ugh my success has really hit a wall lately, since going 44 - 4, I've only been 23 - 18. I don't know exactly why this has happened, I don't seem to be playing differently, but people seem to finding a way to stall out my rain, and really effectively wall my team. Perhaps I'm playing to lazily and sacrificing to much because it worked so well in the beginning of this team's run.

Hmmm well with the suspect period beginning in a few days I think it's time to build a non-rain team to get a better feel for what we'll be voting on, at 80 - 30, this team was a huge success! Thanks Smogon for making my first RMT experience awesome!

 

[Altair]

The problem with this team is that you only have one rain set-up (Ludicolo won't find time to set up rain unless you run def evs). Once Crobat's dead, you have 7-8 turns to sweep and then Qwilfish and Ludicolo are dead weights. Steelix seems to be the best candidate for a late-game set up, since it has the defences to pull it off with ease. But it doesn't learn Rain Dance =/. I think that a suitable rain dancer in its place would be Claydol:

Claydol@ Leftovers/Damp Rock
252 HP/252 Def./4 Sdef.
-Rain Dance
-Stealth Rock
-Earth Power
-Ice beam

Does everything Steelix does, except phaze, but this team is offensive and doesnt really have time to phaze. Claydol also helps with that huge Manectric weakness, since it is 3-4HKOed by HP ice and can hit it hard with Earth Power. Blaziken is the exact same.

The moves themselves are pretty obvious. Rain Dance is what sets it apart from Steelix, and the only reason you would use it over Steelix imo. Stealth Rock is another supporting move and helps turn many 2HKOs into OHKOs and many 3HKOs into 2HKOs. Earth Power and Ice Beam have amazing coverage together and are the best attacks to use on Claydol. Rapid Spin is also an option if you are plagued by SR.

 

[Imran]

It annoys me when people say nUU, it's not nUU, it's UU =( anyway, either way its better than old UU!

OK, so first off, if Staraptor is you "cleaner," it makes sense for him not to be carrying a Choice Item, personally I would reccomend dropping U-Turn for Roost, so you can stick around a little longer if nessecary and then drop the Choice Band for a Life Orb. This way you can actually "mop up" late game rather than be stuck in one move that might not cover the Pokemon that you need it to. You don't lose that much power, and that is made up for in Roost really, allowing you to get over the Stealth Rock weakness a little more. U-Turn is generally only used for early game scouting, so it won't be that much of a loss.

I honestly don't see why you have Azumarill, although you see him as "nessecary" he really isn't doing much for you, dedicated walls olike the ones you are describing really should be swept away early game by the power of your sweepers, that is the whole idea of a rain offense team, it is hit and run. I really really would reccomend changing Azumarill to something else that can set up rain / abuse it. Kabutops and Floatzel come to minds neither are that bulky, but overall Kabutops does have "more" bulk so I would go with that, that way it has a change of setting up Rain Dance and sweeping. The standard Swift Swim abuser set seems to be in order, it will fit in nicely here, transformning this team from something in between rain offense and bulky stall to a real hard hitting rain offense team. Something a rain team really needs to do to function well:

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Adamant Nature / Swift Swim
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
~ Rain Dance
~ Waterfall
~ Stone Edge
~ X-Scissor

We could probably play around with the EV spread a little depending on what it is that you want to be outspeeding after a Rain Dance, i'll give you some numbers, if you're interested:

64 EVs: beats RP Torterra before Rain Dance
80 EVs: beats RP Rampardos before Rain Dance
164 EVs: beats +Spe Rampardos before Rain Dance
180 EVs: beats +Spe Abomasnow before Rain Dance

Those are numbers that you might want to hit that are above the current 56, remeber though, that every Speed EV you invest less goes into HP making you more likely to be taken out by something that is faster than you anyway. I just gave you those as food for though so, whatever use them if you wish ^__^

As for dealing with Manectric, that shouldn't be too hard, if you have to sacrifice a team member to it (Steelix) do it, then go to Crobat and set up a Rain Dance as it kills you, then you are ready to continue sweeping, Ludicolo / Kabutops can refresh the Rain for you should you need it to! An Occa berry on Steelix would be a make shift solution to Manectric / Blaziken as Fighting moves from the Kin won't hurt Steelix that much any way, you will at least have enough to fire an Earthquake back. On that note, get rid of Roar, you won't need it that much, against Calm Minders get Quilfish out and beat them down!

That seems to be all for now, I don't see anything else that might need fixing up at this point, but if anything pops up, or these aren't working that well for you then feel free to get back to me and we'll try and sort it out again! Good Luck!

 

[TUskate]

Those were great responses guys, and I'm going to try and give you both detailed responses because you both had some excellent suggestions.

OK, so first off, if Staraptor is you "cleaner," it makes sense for him not to be carrying a Choice Item, personally I would reccomend dropping U-Turn for Roost, so you can stick around a little longer if nessecary and then drop the Choice Band for a Life Orb. This way you can actually "mop up" late game rather than be stuck in one move that might not cover the Pokemon that you need it to. You don't lose that much power, and that is made up for in Roost really, allowing you to get over the Stealth Rock weakness a little more. U-Turn is generally only used for early game scouting, so it won't be that much of a loss.

This is the first thing I definitely will try, I'm a little up in the air on Roost, but considering I never seem to use much of anything but Return I should be okay without U-turn. This was definitely a good call, however the one thing I find myself doing late game with CBRaptor, is switching him out and sacrificing something to allow Raptor to come back in and Intimidate something that is faster then it (Crobat) or has a priority move (TecHitmontops have been a probelm). I suppose I could do the same thing here though, I'll test it and let you know.

I honestly don't see why you have Azumarill, although you see him as "nessecary" he really isn't doing much for you, dedicated walls olike the ones you are describing really should be swept away early game by the power of your sweepers, that is the whole idea of a rain offense team, it is hit and run. I really really would reccomend changing Azumarill to something else that can set up rain / abuse it. Kabutops and Floatzel come to minds neither are that bulky, but overall Kabutops does have "more" bulk so I would go with that, that way it has a change of setting up Rain Dance and sweeping. The standard Swift Swim abuser set seems to be in order, it will fit in nicely here, transformning this team from something in between rain offense and bulky stall to a real hard hitting rain offense team. Something a rain team really needs to do to function well:

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Adamant Nature / Swift Swim
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
~ Rain Dance
~ Waterfall
~ Stone Edge
~ X-Scissor

We could probably play around with the EV spread a little depending on what it is that you want to be outspeeding after a Rain Dance, i'll give you some numbers, if you're interested:

64 EVs: beats RP Torterra before Rain Dance
80 EVs: beats RP Rampardos before Rain Dance
164 EVs: beats +Spe Rampardos before Rain Dance
180 EVs: beats +Spe Abomasnow before Rain Dance

Those are numbers that you might want to hit that are above the current 56, remeber though, that every Speed EV you invest less goes into HP making you more likely to be taken out by something that is faster than you anyway. I just gave you those as food for though so, whatever use them if you wish ^__^

What has just occured to me after reading this is that perhaps I get into these situations were Azumarril is nessecary because I don't constantly have rain going/don't have enough true rain abusers. Replacing Azu with Kabutops allows me to really keep the pressure on my opponent. Also X-Scissor should deal nice damage to the Psychic types that can stall my sweep like Mespirit and Uxie. Perhaps I've been to conservative worrying about what happens after the rain ends, so now I should just try and keep the rain going. I'll probably run 64 speed evs to beat Torterra, just because I've seen a shit ton of RP Torterra (even though they've never really been tough to handle).

As for dealing with Manectric, that shouldn't be too hard, if you have to sacrifice a team member to it (Steelix) do it, then go to Crobat and set up a Rain Dance as it kills you, then you are ready to continue sweeping, Ludicolo / Kabutops can refresh the Rain for you should you need it to! An Occa berry on Steelix would be a make shift solution to Manectric / Blaziken as Fighting moves from the Kin won't hurt Steelix that much any way, you will at least have enough to fire an Earthquake back. On that note, get rid of Roar, you won't need it that much, against Calm Minders get Quilfish out and beat them down!

That seems to be all for now, I don't see anything else that might need fixing up at this point, but if anything pops up, or these aren't working that well for you then feel free to get back to me and we'll try and sort it out again! Good Luck!

Thanks for the rate Imran! Read below for my discussion of what I'm doing with Steelix. Calm Minders definitely have not been a problem enough to justify Roar. Most Mismagius and Spiritomb are swept up in the first downpour anyway, Raikou is walled by Steelix and I can blow up on Slowbro with Quilfish.

The problem with this team is that you only have one rain set-up (Ludicolo won't find time to set up rain unless you run def evs). Once Crobat's dead, you have 7-8 turns to sweep and then Qwilfish and Ludicolo are dead weights. Steelix seems to be the best candidate for a late-game set up, since it has the defences to pull it off with ease. But it doesn't learn Rain Dance =/. I think that a suitable rain dancer in its place would be Claydol:

Claydol@ Leftovers/Damp Rock
252 HP/252 Def./4 Sdef.
-Rain Dance
-Stealth Rock
-Earth Power
-Ice beam

Does everything Steelix does, except phaze, but this team is offensive and doesnt really have time to phaze. Claydol also helps with that huge Manectric weakness, since it is 3-4HKOed by HP ice and can hit it hard with Earth Power. Blaziken is the exact same.

The moves themselves are pretty obvious. Rain Dance is what sets it apart from Steelix, and the only reason you would use it over Steelix imo. Stealth Rock is another supporting move and helps turn many 2HKOs into OHKOs and many 3HKOs into 2HKOs. Earth Power and Ice Beam have amazing coverage together and are the best attacks to use on Claydol. Rapid Spin is also an option if you are plagued by SR.

Claydol was one of the pokemon I heavily considered as I was building this team, and it is a great check to Manetric. However the first thing I think I'll check is Imran's Occa Berry Steelix idea, only because a lot of the leads that my Crobat usually Taunts (Froslass, other Crobats) are completely shut down by Steelix, who usually sets up Stealt Rocks with ease. Claydol would definitely have trouble taking Ice Beams/Shadow Balls from Froslass.

As far as setting up Rain Dance goes though, I generally am able to set it up a second time with Crobat and if Ludicolo didn't do the majority of the sweeping the first time around then he can set it up pretty easily. However, I'm definitely going to try running Kabutops as a third Rain Dance abusers, so I generally should be able to get another couple turns of Rain Dance.

What move should I replace Roar with on Steelix? Toxic or Explosion? My other concern for the team now is that 4/6 members have life orb and only one can recover off that damage. We'll see how it plays though it might not be a problem.

I'll play test some of these changes and let you guys know how it does.

So far Explosion on Steelix and Life Orb Staraptor have been quite successful. I've been a little disapointed with Kabutops' hitting power so I've thought about giving him Swords Dance, and Qwilfish Rain Dance. I'm going to keep testing as is for now.

A new pokemon that's been giving me trouble is Shaymin, it's so bulky that it's stops Ludicolo and Kabutops from finishing thier sweeps. How should I get around this guy?

 

[MapleSandwich]

I wouldn't really call this mono-Johto. Five out of Six is almost mono. Three, not so much. I do find it rather interesting that you bring that up the same with I did with my Sunny Day team...(*coughrivalcough*)

Anyway, Crobat looks fine. You do need a sturdy setup Pokémon, though. I'd set up using Steelix, myself....at least, if it could learn Rain Dance. A weather team such as yours or mine needs to be ridiculously offensive to rip through the enemy, and have a few Pokémon capable of covering your weaknesses up for setup after your lead is downed. Roar should never be necessary if you play your team right. I'd replace Steelix with another Steel type, like Registeel, who can also lay down SR and Rain Dance. Depending on what would help you more, Explosion, Thunder Wave, Earthquake, Iron Head, and Toxic are all viable move choices. I'd go with Earthquake and Explosion myself.

Qwilfish looks okay, but he's a little fragile so Life Orb might make him vunerable to priority move users like Arcanine or Scarfers like Staraptor. I'd give him a different item, like perhaps a Lum Berry to prevent a lucky status move from shutting him down. As for your Shaymin problem, a Swords Danced Poison Jab or two of Ludicolo's Ice Beams really should be enough to cut it down.

I'd personally give Kabutops Swords Dance instead of Rain Dance. Staraptor seems a decent enough choice for his role. However, I'm surprised you don't sport Choice Scarf Water Spout Wailord. He's Rain's answer to Scarfruption Typhlosion. There's a good set in its analysis page.

I hope my comments helped a fellow G/S weather user. =)

 

[TUskate]

I wouldn't really call this mono-Johto. Five out of Six is almost mono. Three, not so much. I do find it rather interesting that you bring that up the same with I did with my Sunny Day team...(*coughrivalcough*)

Lol yeah now it's down to just 4/6 Johto, still seemed cool!

Anyway, Crobat looks fine. You do need a sturdy setup Pokémon, though. I'd set up using Steelix, myself....at least, if it could learn Rain Dance. A weather team such as yours or mine needs to be ridiculously offensive to rip through the enemy, and have a few Pokémon capable of covering your weaknesses up for setup after your lead is downed. Roar should never be necessary if you play your team right. I'd replace Steelix with another Steel type, like Registeel, who can also lay down SR and Rain Dance. Depending on what would help you more, Explosion, Thunder Wave, Earthquake, Iron Head, and Toxic are all viable move choices. I'd go with Earthquake and Explosion myself.

Registeel is a very interesting choice I hadn't really thought about. Roar is compeletly useless, but explosion has really been working great on Steelix. I suppose though I could run almost the exact same set on Registeel (SR/Explosion/EQ/Thunderwave I guess), which would work decently because I also rarely find myself using Stone Edge. I do think I'd miss the electric immunity though, as Steelix tends to totally shut down Electrike and is currently my answer to Manetric.

Qwilfish looks okay, but he's a little fragile so Life Orb might make him vunerable to priority move users like Arcanine or Scarfers like Staraptor. I'd give him a different item, like perhaps a Lum Berry to prevent a lucky status move from shutting him down. As for your Shaymin problem, a Swords Danced Poison Jab or two of Ludicolo's Ice Beams really should be enough to cut it down.

Honestly Qwilfish rarely gets a chance to SD. It's usually much more convient to just explode and really open up a sweep for Kabutops and Ludicolo.

I'd personally give Kabutops Swords Dance instead of Rain Dance. Staraptor seems a decent enough choice for his role. However, I'm surprised you don't sport Choice Scarf Water Spout Wailord. He's Rain's answer to Scarfruption Typhlosion. There's a good set in its analysis page.

Wailord is definitely something to think about, but I don't really see were I'm fitting it in. SD on Kabutops would definitely help it hit harder, but I don't think I can get away with using Rain Dance on Qwilfish. Thanks for the input though!

I hope my comments helped a fellow G/S weather user. =)

What I really need is a rain sweeper that could bust through Shaymin, as he's really fucking up my sweeps unless he's taken damage already.

 

[TUskate]

Gonna use my bump here...

The Shoddy version of this team has been functioning magnificently. There has been one team that I've ran into like 3-4 times that I'm completely walled by, but I'm not hugely concerned about that right now. I'm closing in on a rating of 1400 as we speak (surely not impressive for some of you, but I'm very pleased). However I just noticed a huge problem for the Wifi version of this team.

Qwilfish doesn't get Swords Dance in DP and I don't have the capability of breeding one in FireRed/Emerald.

So I have to figure out a way to rectify this situation. My first instinct is to put Swords Dance on Kabutops over Rain Dance, and use Qwilfish to setup Rain Dance.

A set like Rain Dance/Waterfall/Explosion/Poison Jab still works I suppose, and I'd say I only Swords Dance in 25% of the matches I play, but when I do Swords Dance it usually spells trouble for the opposing team. I'm also considering running Taunt > Poison Jab just to neutralize Clefables who always ruin my sweeping fun.

But regardless I need opinions guys, should I replace Qwilfish or not? If I do, who should the new team member be? Btw, I'm pretty much absolutely going to run Swords Dance on Kabutops so the new pokemon will have to be able to set up Rain Dance.

If I decide I want Taunt + Rain Dance I'll probably use Floatzel, but it really hurts giving up Explosion.

 

[Syberia]

If you do swap Steelix with Registeel (Iron Head/Stealth Rock/Rain Dance/Explosion could work), then you might be able to put Swords Dance on Kabutops, as with +2 attack, it absolutely rips through everything. Shaymin included.

I'm actually not sure what the point of X-Scissor on your Kabutops really is, a STAB Stone Edge is only 10 points weaker against Grass-types.

You could always AR yourself a Swords Dancing Qwilfish in the meantime. Might I suggest testing Destiny Bond, though? It will either kill your opponent same as Explosion, or allow you a free Swords Dance.

 

[TUskate]

If you do swap Steelix with Registeel (Iron Head/Stealth Rock/Rain Dance/Explosion could work), then you might be able to put Swords Dance on Kabutops, as with +2 attack, it absolutely rips through everything. Shaymin included.

I'm actually not sure what the point of X-Scissor on your Kabutops really is, a STAB Stone Edge is only 10 points weaker against Grass-types.

You could always AR yourself a Swords Dancing Qwilfish in the meantime. Might I suggest testing Destiny Bond, though? It will either kill your opponent same as Explosion, or allow you a free Swords Dance.

Syberia you're advice on Kabutops makes a lot more sense. I do have someone breeding me a SD Qwilfish currently, but I am going to *for now* make Kabutops my Sword Dancer, and switch Steelix with Registeel.

So the new sets I'll be using are...

Kabutops - Adamant - Swift Swim w/Life Orb/Lum Berry/Leftovers
48 Hp/252 Attack/208 Speed
Swords Dance
Waterfall
Stone Edge
Substitute

The last move is a toss up because the both let me beat Clefable, but Sub is definitely better for fucking up Shaymin. I'll test both. The 208 Speed is to outpace Timid Scarf Typhlosion (not sure if the standard is Modest or Timid...).

I've decided Substitute is the best move for the 4th slot because even a 252 Hp Timid Shaymin is 2hko'd (52 - 62%) 100% of the time with Stone Edge, as long as Stealth Rocks are up. Life Orb is also going to be the item of choice in this situation because Stone Edge can ohko all 252 Shaymin after a Swords Dance, while a non-Life Orb, +2 Stone Edge does between 82 - 95 %, which with a little previous damage and SR is a possible ohko, but not guarenteed. I think I definitely need advice on what to do here.

Registeel - Impish - Clear Body w/Damp Rock
252 Hp/56 Defense/200 Special Defense
Rain Dance
Iron Head/Earthquake/Seismic Toss
Explosion
Stealth Rock

I actually think this set could work out quite nicely because like I've stated above, I often find myself switching to Steelix right after Crobat Taunts the opponent, and then setting up SR and switching back to Crobat to get rain going. Now I can do this without switching. Either of the three attacking options look solid.

Qwilfish - Adamant - Swift Swim w/Life Orb
160 Hp/252 Attack/96 Speed
Waterfall
Explosion
Poison Jab
Rain Dance/Taunt

Since Kabutops is taking over Swords Dancing duties, Qwilfish can play sort of a utility role, either setting up Rain Dance, or Taunting Bulky pokemon like Milotic and Clefable so they don't hit my team with status/can't recover. I'm not sure I need Rain Dance here, but I listed it as something I'm going to test anyway. I'm not sure if 4 Rain Dancers is overkill, especially now that I'll be using two Damp Rock holders. I wasn't really sure were to go with the ev's, so I tried to draw a nice line between bulk and speed. With these evs I outspeed and kill +Speed Scarf Roserade. It could be bulkier I suppose, as Qwilfish outruns everything that doesn't have a choice scarf except Electrode with 0 speed evs, and Electrode only needs like 12 evs to be outsped. Conversely it could be faster, but that extra bulk may be useful on something like a Aqua Jet from Azumarril when I'm low on health and looking to explode.

The rest of the team will generally stay the same. The thought of using ScarfWailord instead of Staraptor has crossed my mind in the event that rain may still be up while I'm trying to clean up the opposing team. I wouldn't be worried about Bulkywaters so much because most of them will be eliminated by my Swift Swimmers, and it may compound my Shaymin problem, but the thought of Water Spouting in the rain is pretty tempting.

I'll test the newly revised team out, and see if it plays better or worse. I'm optimistic though, because the new Kabutops and Qwilfish sets seem to suggest that I have a better shot at taking down a few problem pokemon.

Just a note, I really really don't want to get rid of Qwilfish, because a Life Orb boosted Poison Jab is my best bet against Shaymin.

 

[Syberia]

On Registeel, it depends on who you fear less, Mismagius setting up on you, or Raikou setting up on you. Seismic Toss/Earthquake will stop Raikou, but Iron Head is the only move to stop Missy :(

 

[TUskate]

Hmmmm I think in that case I really have to lean towards one of the Raikou stoping options because he poses the biggest threat for my team, while with Missy it's possible to overpower her, especially if I have rain up.

 

[Imran]

Nice to see you're still working on this =)

I do, however, have a few qualms with the sets, especially Kabutops. Substitute really REALLY feels like a waste of a moveslot. Sure people do try to switch around to beat Rain Dance team and all that, but in all seriousness, how is it going to do you any good? You're better off taking advantage of their switching by simply Swords Dancing on the switch. I really think it is a bad way to be playing if you have to waste so many turns of your Rain, just to set up a swords Dance sweeper who will have very little turns left to take advantage of the Rain. Kabutops is slow as hell without it. So what should we put in there instead? It is a filler move, so any one of X-Scissor, Brick Break or Return should work nicely. Which ever you feel you have more need of I guess.

Moving on to Registeel, I would reccomend Iron Head in there instead to be honest. You can deal more easily with Raikou by simply setting up the rain in its face and exploding, then you are free to go to either threatening sweeper. The reason Missy is more threatening to you is because she is immune to your Explosion, so you won't break her Sub upon sacrificing yourself. You can easily overpower Raikou with the rain up too ^_^

The rest actually looks good, from here on in I would say to continue testing these changes and see how they work. I am actually on Shoddy now should you Wish to chat in more detail or I can have a look at how this team is actually playing should you wish! Either way, test them out, teel us how they work, and we will keep working on this team until we are sure that we have something that you are satisfied with.

 

[Syberia]

Not to mention Substitute + Life Orb is a huge waste of HP.

X-Scissor still will not OHKO 252/252 Shaymin, Tangrowth, or Slowbro even with a Swords Dance and Life Orb.

 

[TUskate]

I'm definitely pleased with switching to Kabutops to be the Swords Dancer, especially because I've definitely been having success with Taunt Qwilfish. In one battle I Taunted a Milotic who was trying to sleep me I guess, then 2hko'd it with Poison Jab because it couldn't recover. I think once I finally get the SD Qwilfish Geren is breeding for my wifi team, I'll test that again, but as of now I'm pleased with what I have.

Sub + Life Orb is a waste, I pretty much just wasted turns setting up Sub. I'm a little unsure on the filler for the fourth set though. Toxicroak, Poliwrath and Quagsire resist Rock + Water, and since Qwilfish (Explosion) and Ludicolo (Grass Knot) both deal with Quagsire, I'll probably go with Aerial Ace in that last spot since after a SD it pretty much guarantees a ohko on the two fighting types.

Registeel has been great, good call guys. Also having a second damp rock user has really eliminated some of the fire types as problems because rain is up 75% of the match. I've tried both EQ and Iron Head and I actually ran into a Mismagius while I had Iron Head and it made things very easy, I think I'll be sticking with that option.

I'm going to update the OP because I'm feeling this team right now. Right now the only place I could see making improvements is in the ev spreads of Registeel (I went with the analysis' spread), Kabutops and Qwilfish. I'm not sure whether to bulk them up, or just make them 252/252 Speed.

 

[Syberia]

252 speed helps you to beat random Choice Scarfers in the rain. I'd stick with that.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Well, good to see you're having success with this team. (I should really battle you sometime with my opposing team to see just how good you are with this thing.) A few comments:

1) Your first post still says Steelix in Registeel's spot.
2) As for Staraptor, why not just assume a BB or Return's coming and switch to Registeel to absorb it? Then you can set up Rain Dance and proceed to dance on Staraptor next time it comes in.
3) I don't have a lot of advice for Medicham, I've personally never seen one except for once one came in and was OHKO'd. Lead Sash seems troubling, though. You obviously can't pull a burn like I can, but perhaps you can try switching in Ludicolo after the first turn KO? Medicham can't pack anything SE against Ludicolo, and it should be sufficiently bulky to KO it.

Hope my suggestions help.

 

[TUskate]

Alrighty everyone, I really want to thank everyone who helped me out with this team. It's been incredibly successful, and after 100 battles, it's won a clean 75% of it's games at 75 - 25. My current rating is 1463, and certainly the last 30 matches were not as strong as the first 70. My rating peaked 1493, which pleased me quite a bit, considering I really only used this team for 3-4 days.

I think now I'm really going to start putting the wifi version together. I'm definitely still looking for advice from people though, and may start tinkering with it soon. I think I'll test ScarfWailord just for some fun, but if anyone has some thoughts, especially on metagame shifts that may affect my team.

 

[Relictivity]

You have an awsome Ludicolo, really :)
Does your team have something to answer to high powered physical attacks? Particularaly electric ones? You might possible try to fit Lanturn on to your team. (I know it's already packed, but, if you could)

 

[TUskate]

Thanks Relicivity. I don't often find myself running into strong electric attackers from the physical side, the only really scary one is Luxray, but he out sped by five of my team member so I usually have an advantage.

However, one problem that my team has run into is Thunder Wave, which generally completely neuters my rain sweepers. Qwilfish shuts it down with Taunt, but has to be careful switching in, and generally it is switching in because the most common t-wavers I run into can take 2 or more hits from Ludicolo. The three pokemon I worry about are Clefable, Registeel and Chansey. Miltanks that just love spamming Body Slams are also annoying if they paralyze a sweeper, especially Kabutops who I once lost to paralysis while trying to switch in on a resisted Body Slam. So I've thought of a potential solution to play test...

Hitmonlee - Adamant - Limber w/Choice Band
252 Attack/ 252 Speed/ 4 Special Defenes
Close Combat
Sucker Punch
Stone Edge
Mach Punch/Earthquake

Hitmonlee will attempt to take the place of Staraptor on the team. The reasoning in fairly obvious in that the ability Limber allows me to switch in without worrying about becoming paralyzed, and threaten a OHKO. A second benefit is the powerful priority attacks Hitmonlee provides in Sucker Punch and Mach Punch, that help compensate late game, when my rain starters may be out of the picture. The reason I've gone with a Choice Band set rather then a Life Orb set like I use on my Staraptor is because Lee figures to see more action midgame then Staraptor would. Likely the idea will be to spam Close Combats and Stone Edges early game hoping to soften up the opposing team, and Sucker Punch and Mach Punch can help me clean up late game. I'm definitely thinking Adamant > Jolly because I'll be using two priority moves the majority of the time.

I've given some consideration to the idea of using Expert Belt > Choice Band to lure people into believing I've got a ScarfLee. Considering the popularity of the pokemon I'm trying to counter with Lee, I'll often be getting the x1.1 boost against normal and steel types, while it would allow me to put the hurt on Psychic and Ghost types that come in to sponge my Close Combats. However I'll run some calcs on Expert Belt v. Life Orb and if after testing the CB set it becomes apparent that it would be adventageous to be able to switch attacks, I'll decide which appeals to me more. I'm leary about Life Orb however, because it doesn't have Roost like Staraptor did to shed off SR/LO damage.

Mach Punch is likely the fourth move over Earthquake because I feel like I have the Nidos and Claydol suffiecently covered by my rain abusers, while Toxicroak can be beaten by Crobat. Medicham and Gallade are raped by Sucker Punch.

I was briefly considering Toxicroak to fill into the "Cleaner" role over Staraptor because of his powerful priority move Sucker Punch, but this Thunder Wave immunity seems like the perfect addition to my team. I'll report back on how Hitmonlee tests.

*Preliminary Results*

Slowbrow is a (BAN ME PLEASE). He is the other Thunder Waver that I've had trouble with and can't be Ohko'd by Hitmonlee (Not sure about Sucker Punch, but generally I've been hesitant to use that till late game), but can KO back with Psychic and even Surf if I have rain up. All the late game priority has been nice, but Slowbro has definitely been a problem early game. I'll battle somemore tomorrow.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Slowbro has massive physical Defense. Between that and Slack Off, good luck scoring a KO with Hitmonlee. I'd go with Ludicolo's Grass STAB to KO Slowbro, since it has an equally horrid SpDef. (Switch to Hitmonlee to absorb TWave if you think it's coming, then switch again and KO).

 

[TUskate]

That's generally how I'd normally play it, but again it's not like an ideal situation. Once you get into mind games like that I could easily end up with a paralyzed Ludi and a dead Hitmonlee. I'll probably test another 20 matches with Hitmon, but so far it's been a shadow of Staraptor.

 

[Relictivity]

Yes, Ludicolo is the way to go. I had a hard time beating that thing :)

You could also explode one of your pokemon, or put Toxic somewhere on the set to debilitate Slowbro forever. Also, Leech Seed could definately fit on that Ludicolo somewhere...