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I know what you mean, the standard mons kind of rule the format, but mishimono is right when he says that charizard has a different teambuilding archetype to kangaskhan offence teams. Charizard requires a lot of support to pull off a successful sweep, so the best support mons for charizard are usually in the top tier in vgc, such as aegislash and cresselia, which unfortunately means that teams will be similar in build. But for example, cresselia spreads are much different on sun teams than they are on kang offence teams, as they focus on fulfilling different roles ie calm mind/Trick room set up cress is usually more common on kang offence teams.
Milotic would not be as viable as rotom-wash or terrakion, as its only STAB is weakened by the sun, whereas rotom-wash has the electric type going which hits bulky waters which no other strong/bulky water type can do in sun (aside from maybe ludicolo). Milotic's ability to counter bisharp is not really needed, as terrakion would do a better job, and can switch in to a knock off to get a justified boost, and double kick breaks through focus sashes. Milotic's second attacking move is already taken up by other members on the team (mamoswine has STAB icicle crash (>Milotic's Ice beam) that outspeeds and OHKO's scarf landorus-t, and cresselia has icy wind already as an option.
reporting:
it apears it is a pretty effective team ^u^ just 2 things.
1) i think it'll be better to build aegis on the physical side as the bigger threats i can check with him are on the special side (mega garde, sylveon, gengar, cresellia) what do you think? weakness policy is a really good item too
2) scarf mamoswine is not that usefull because ive met some people running jolly landorus just to check him, so im switching him to life orb. that way mega salamance aint got nothing on me
i also seem to have trouble against thundurus's prankster+swagger combo.
1) Physical aegislash is less viable in vgc than special aegislash, as it is weak to intimidate, and his main STAB shadow claw is weaker in base power than shadow ball. I don't see how switching to a physical set would improve the team's matchup versus the threats you have mentioned, as although the special bulk of these threats are slightly higher than that of their physical bulk, most of these threats run intimidate users on the team (mega gardevoir - Landorus-T / Sylveon - Landorus-t (usually run with CHALK cores, and most semi trick room teams run landorus-t as their fast mode) / Mega Gengar - Scrafty/Arcanine/Landorus-t (Perish trap/Terracott teams) / Cresselia - Landorus-t (CHALK/Semi TR)). Also, 3/4 of these threats would usually run a super effective move that would activate aegislash's weakness policy without getting a OHKO (when in blade form), so again, physical sets would not necessarily have the advantage over a special set
2) Jolly scarf landorus-t are quite uncommon, i wouldn't necessarily change your mamoswine because of that. To put it into numbers, Jolly landorus-t occupy only 28.1% of all sets, which includes most non-scarf variants, which run jolly much more commonly, which means only a slight fraction of that have jolly and scarf together (bearing in mind that only 40.6% of all landorus-t are scarfed). And what chance does an adamant scarf landorus-t have against icy wind cresselia + 188 Spe Charizard, and what would a jolly natured landorus-t have do against ice beam Cress, whilst having wide guard on aegislash? Quite frankly very little. Jolly Scarf mamoswine is a very efficient set which offers a superb fast mode next to charizard, countering many massive threats to it, including faster rock types than life orb mamoswine (TERRAKION) etc, more so than life orb would. I know for your first try at vgc, choice scarf is a tricky item to use, but it offers so much even with the restriction to one move, which sometimes will force switches, but i strongly suggest you stick with scarf.
Prankster/Swagger/Thunder Wave is a massive pain for every player. Again, Choice Scarf Mamoswine is probably your best bet against the most common user of the move, thundurus, who can't do anything to it. I appreciate that by having a multitude of special attackers worsens your swagger matchup, but only 27.9% of thundurus run swagger, and in my opinion the benefits to the recommended pokemon outweigh the risks.
1) Physical aegislash is less viable in vgc than special aegislash, as it is weak to intimidate, and his main STAB shadow claw is weaker in base power than shadow ball. I don't see how switching to a physical set would improve the team's matchup versus the threats you have mentioned, as although the special bulk of these threats are slightly higher than that of their physical bulk, most of these threats run intimidate users on the team (mega gardevoir - Landorus-T / Sylveon - Landorus-t (usually run with CHALK cores, and most semi trick room teams run landorus-t as their fast mode) / Mega Gengar - Scrafty/Arcanine/Landorus-t (Perish trap/Terracott teams) / Cresselia - Landorus-t (CHALK/Semi TR)). Also, 3/4 of these threats would usually run a super effective move that would activate aegislash's weakness policy without getting a OHKO (when in blade form), so again, physical sets would not necessarily have the advantage over a special set
2) Jolly scarf landorus-t are quite uncommon, i wouldn't necessarily change your mamoswine because of that. To put it into numbers, Jolly landorus-t occupy only 28.1% of all sets, which includes most non-scarf variants, which run jolly much more commonly, which means only a slight fraction of that have jolly and scarf together (bearing in mind that only 40.6% of all landorus-t are scarfed). And what chance does an adamant scarf landorus-t have against icy wind cresselia + 188 Spe Charizard, and what would a jolly natured landorus-t have do against ice beam Cress, whilst having wide guard on aegislash? Quite frankly very little. Jolly Scarf mamoswine is a very efficient set which offers a superb fast mode next to charizard, countering many massive threats to it, including faster rock types than life orb mamoswine (TERRAKION) etc, more so than life orb would. I know for your first try at vgc, choice scarf is a tricky item to use, but it offers so much even with the restriction to one move, which sometimes will force switches, but i strongly suggest you stick with scarf.
Prankster/Swagger/Thunder Wave is a massive pain for every player. Again, Choice Scarf Mamoswine is probably your best bet against the most common user of the move, thundurus, who can't do anything to it. I appreciate that by having a multitude of special attackers worsens your swagger matchup, but only 27.9% of thundurus run swagger, and in my opinion the benefits to the recommended pokemon outweigh the risks.
sorry if im being too noob, i meant iron head,sacred sword aegislash. it was just something i thought anyways doesent weakness policy beat the intimidate?
i dunno where you get those stats but i met a few jolly scarfed landorus on the pokeshowdown simulator. life orb was more efective in those cases.
also, should rotom use volt switch instead of will o wisp?
perhaps i should stay with obivious to take swagger without problems
i cant speak with wide analisis of the metagame just about what i experienced.
sorry if im being too noob, i meant iron head,sacred sword aegislash. it was just something i thought anyways doesent weakness policy beat the intimidate?
i dunno where you get those stats but i met a few jolly scarfed landorus on the pokeshowdown simulator. life orb was more efective in those cases.
also, should rotom use volt switch instead of will o wisp?
perhaps i should stay with obivious to take swagger without problems
i cant speak with wide analisis of the metagame just about what i experienced.
- First up dont worry about being new to the meta, i remember my first try at vgc, and you're doing a significantly better job than i was at coming up with and testing out fresh ideas :)
- Weakness policy won't always activate unless the opponent attacks you, so special attacking sets are generally more reliable in this way, as theres a tonne of intimidate flying round in vgc 2015 and WP isnt always going to save you from it
- The stats are from the official pokemon global link info page for battle spot doubles http://3ds-sp.pokemon-gl.com/battle/oras/#double
I recommend having a look some time :)
- lots of people on low ladder will click the reccomended spread on the showdown team builder, which is why there would be more jolly scarf lando-ts around. Also if you choose to run life orb mamoswine, could i ask that you consider tailwind charizard with FO support?
- Thundurus would never choose to swagger a mamoswine unless it had to, its a move that is used mostly to hinder special attackers, so thick fat is a better ability, as it reduces damage from fire types who would otherwise do much more damage to it, such as heatran who also counters charizard
- what benefit would volt switch have over will o wisp? You would have two electric type moves on the set, which is not an optimal choice, as will o wisp offers more options versus many common physical pokemon in the format, such as kangaskhan, landorus-t, mega metagross etc, and is especially good since this team lacks intimidate support
1. Replace Overheat with Fire Blast. As nuking move, Overheat is cool and all, but to be honest, the Sp.Atk drop doesn't help you much. Fire Blast trade is -5% Accuracy (which isn't a lot, it's like the difference between Icy Wind and Ice Beam) and -20 BP, for a lot more spammable move that you can repeatedly hit your opponent with, bypassing Wide Guard and hitting whatever Pokemon with a similar power than Overheat:
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Sun: 180-213 (99.4 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Sun: 213-252 (117.6 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 68+ SpD Thundurus in Sun: 183-216 (98.3 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 68+ SpD Thundurus in Sun: 214-253 (115 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In the entire premier challenge, i didn't even miss a single one of these babies, so don't worry about the "shaky" accuracy players tend to disregard this move with.
Agreeing with previous posts, the nature should be Modest as there's no point on running Timid Zard Y.
However, the EV spread of the suggestions seems lacking in speed, as it won't outspeed max speed Adamant Landorus-T with it, which is a benchmark you should aim for when EVing for bulky Zard Y. The EV spread that i ran in my latest premier was 44 HP / 180 Def / 36 SpA / 60 SpD / 188 Spe. This baby pulled out many things during the Premier, being able to survive Garchomp / Mamoswine's Rock Slide and Kangaskhan's Return, for extension, while outspeeding Adamant Landorus-T by one point. The SpDef stat can be modified, however, the SpDef benchmark allows it to take Mega Manectric's Thunderbolt, which i considered to be a nice benchmark as LO Thunderbolt from Thundurus' is definitely out of the way. Ah, before i forgot, you can also take Thundurus' unboosted Thunderbolt from any non-LO variant, so that's cool n_n.
You might want Overheat for this one, due to its amount of bulk, but to be honest, all of them are viable options, so your pick n_n.
Well, i'll give your team a more detailed review later. Good luck with your team!
1. Replace Overheat with Fire Blast. As nuking move, Overheat is cool and all, but to be honest, the Sp.Atk drop doesn't help you much. Fire Blast trade is -5% Accuracy (which isn't a lot, it's like the difference between Icy Wind and Ice Beam) and -20 BP, for a lot more spammable move that you can repeatedly hit your opponent with, bypassing Wide Guard and hitting whatever Pokemon with a similar power than Overheat:
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Sun: 180-213 (99.4 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Sun: 213-252 (117.6 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 68+ SpD Thundurus in Sun: 183-216 (98.3 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 68+ SpD Thundurus in Sun: 214-253 (115 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In the entire premier challenge, i didn't even miss a single one of these babies, so don't worry about the "shaky" accuracy players tend to disregard this move with.
Agreeing with previous posts, the nature should be Modest as there's no point on running Timid Zard Y.
However, the EV spread of the suggestions seems lacking in speed, as it won't outspeed max speed Adamant Landorus-T with it, which is a benchmark you should aim for when EVing for bulky Zard Y. The EV spread that i ran in my latest premier was 44 HP / 180 Def / 36 SpA / 60 SpD / 188 Spe. This baby pulled out many things during the Premier, being able to survive Garchomp / Mamoswine's Rock Slide and Kangaskhan's Return, for extension, while outspeeding Adamant Landorus-T by one point. The SpDef stat can be modified, however, the SpDef benchmark allows it to take Mega Manectric's Thunderbolt, which i considered to be a nice benchmark as LO Thunderbolt from Thundurus' is definitely out of the way. Ah, before i forgot, you can also take Thundurus' unboosted Thunderbolt from any non-LO variant, so that's cool n_n.
You might want Overheat for this one, due to its amount of bulk, but to be honest, all of them are viable options, so your pick n_n.
Well, i'll give your team a more detailed review later. Good luck with your team!
*has fire-red flashback*
charizard missed fire blast, bruno's machamp used rock slide
...geez why cant charchar learn sacred fire?
those calculations of OHKO are only on paper, that is: if it hits. taking into acount the chance of missing its actually 80% and 74% chance to kill on practice.
with overheat's damage penalty and fire blast's acuracy might as well run with blast burn and use it as a coup de grace on the last turn.
hmm how bout using whimsicott to encore mega kanga's fake out, that'll put her out of comission and using taunt on thundurus will check him bad.
gosh only 6 slots in my team...
- First up dont worry about being new to the meta, i remember my first try at vgc, and you're doing a significantly better job than i was at coming up with and testing out fresh ideas :)
- Weakness policy won't always activate unless the opponent attacks you, so special attacking sets are generally more reliable in this way, as theres a tonne of intimidate flying round in vgc 2015 and WP isnt always going to save you from it
- The stats are from the official pokemon global link info page for battle spot doubles http://3ds-sp.pokemon-gl.com/battle/oras/#double
I recommend having a look some time :)
- lots of people on low ladder will click the reccomended spread on the showdown team builder, which is why there would be more jolly scarf lando-ts around. Also if you choose to run life orb mamoswine, could i ask that you consider tailwind charizard with FO support?
- Thundurus would never choose to swagger a mamoswine unless it had to, its a move that is used mostly to hinder special attackers, so oblivious is admittedly a viable ability in some cases, thick fat is generally a better ability, as it reduces damage from fire types who would otherwise do much more damage to it, such as heatran who also counters charizard
- what benefit would volt switch have over will o wisp? You would have two electric type moves on the set, which is not an optimal choice, as will o wisp offers more options versus many common physical pokemon in the format, such as kangaskhan, landorus-t, mega metagross etc, and is especially good since this team lacks intimidate support
-oh ok. btw i changed cresselia for terrakion{close combat,rock slide, iron head, protect} because i had only mamoswine for physical attacker, and he's really usefull at taking down mega lucario and kanga. he's also a good switch in for when the enemy decides to run snarl seeing this is a bit of a special focused team.
overheat is an all or nothing move, maybe ill use tailwind
-never is a powerfull word, a thundurus DID just that and mamo hit himself, probably because he needed to protect his mega salamance who can be OHKOed by ice shard.
-oh and thanks for the rotom idea...i mean it XD
-look guys i know your stadistics are great but not everyone goes by the rules is all im saying. i know its imposible to check everything but every posibility is worth analysing
btw what do i do against this matchup
mega beedrill{ u-turn,p-jab, drill run, protect}
clefairy+friend guard@eviolite{follow me, heal pulse,helping hand,moonlight}
conckeldure+ironfist@lifeorb{match punch, ice punch,thunder punch, drain punch}
didnt get to see the 4th guy i got owned :v
with helping hand match punch OHKOed mamoswine and beedrill OHKOed charizard with poison jab
-oh ok. btw i changed cresselia for terrakion{close combat,rock slide, iron head, protect} because i had only mamoswine for physical attacker, and he's really usefull at taking down mega lucario and kanga. he's also a good switch in for when the enemy decides to run snarl seeing this is a bit of a special focused team.
overheat is an all or nothing move, maybe ill use tailwind
-never is a powerfull word, a thundurus DID just that and mamo hit himself, probably because he needed to protect his mega salamance who can be OHKOed by ice shard.
-oh and thanks for the rotom idea...i mean it XD
-look guys i know your stadistics are great but not everyone goes by the rules is all im saying. i know its imposible to check everything but every posibility is worth analysing
Could i urge you to stay with cresselia in the current team format? Terrakion wouldn't add as many qualities to the team as cresselia would, for example:
- Lack of reliable speed control without cresselia, charizard needs FO support to set up a tailwind safely
- Terrakion's coverage can also be achieved by mamoswine, as mamoswine gets superpower and iron head, however i recommend you don't run iron head either way since it doesn't get the OHKO on sylveon, and aegislash already fills the role of fairy counter.
If you don't like the shaky accuracy of fire blast/overheat, flamethrower is a viable option, since they all hit through wide guard, so that charizard can hit aegislash etc for big damage.
Sorry if my wording was a bit harsh last time :/ i wrote it at like 11 pm.. Anyways that thundy was playing a pretty big risk swaggering the mamoswine, but 'oblivious' does not stop mamoswine from getting confused, that's 'own tempo'.
hmm how bout using whimsicott to encore mega kanga's fake out, that'll put her out of comission and using taunt on thundurus will check him bad.
gosh only 6 slots in my team..
Whimsicott is quite a viable option that meshes nicely with charizard and terrakion, getting quick wins with a possible Beat Up/Justified combo as well as whimsicott's access to prankster tailwind. It's not the best pick for high level play because opponents will prepare for that possible +6 terrakion, but for your first team it would be very fun to play about with.
Terrakion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Rock Slide
- Quick Guard
- Protect
- Quick Guard stops opposing taunts/prankster TW from thundurus etc so Whimsicott/Terrakion can sweep a little more freely
- Offensively orientated set
Would replace venusaur/cresselia
- statistics are one of the best ways to build teams which aim to check the general metagame. Competitive pokemon has been compared to a momentum-based game that relies on actuarial science (the science of using mathematics and statistics to evaluate risk, basically weighing up your options; Ray Rizzo himself has gone on to get a degree in actuarial science), so it's easier to predict your opponents next move when you look at the statistics behind the game. Swagger is always an annoying move to deal with, which is why the vgc community looks down on those who use it
btw in that beedrill/clef/conk matchup, i would have led with Charizard/Venusaur so that venusaur could put the sweeper to sleep for charizard to proceed to knock the beedrill out with heat wave. mega beedrill needs a helping hand boost to ohko a charizard y withpoison sting, which leaves it open to sleep powder, and heat wave would ko the beedrill through follow me.
Could i urge you to stay with cresselia in the current team format? Terrakion wouldn't add as many qualities to the team as cresselia would, for example:
- Lack of reliable speed control without cresselia, charizard needs FO support to set up a tailwind safely
- Terrakion's coverage can also be achieved by mamoswine, as mamoswine gets superpower and iron head, however i recommend you don't run iron head either way since it doesn't get the OHKO on sylveon, and aegislash already fills the role of fairy counter.
If you don't like the shaky accuracy of fire blast/overheat, flamethrower is a viable option, since they all hit through wide guard, so that charizard can hit aegislash etc for big damage.
Sorry if my wording was a bit harsh last time :/ i wrote it at like 11 pm.. Anyways that thundy was playing a pretty big risk swaggering the mamoswine, but 'oblivious' does not stop mamoswine from getting confused, that's 'own tempo'.
Whimsicott is quite a viable option that meshes nicely with charizard and terrakion, getting quick wins with a possible Beat Up/Justified combo as well as whimsicott's access to prankster tailwind. It's not the best pick for high level play because opponents will prepare for that possible +6 terrakion, but for your first team it would be very fun to play about with.
Terrakion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Rock Slide
- Quick Guard
- Protect
- Quick Guard stops opposing taunts/prankster TW from thundurus etc so Whimsicott/Terrakion can sweep a little more freely
- Offensively orientated set
Would replace venusaur/cresselia
- statistics are one of the best ways to build teams which aim to check the general metagame. Competitive pokemon has been compared to a momentum-based game that relies on actuarial science (the science of using mathematics and statistics to evaluate risk, basically weighing up your options; Ray Rizzo himself has gone on to get a degree in actuarial science), so it's easier to predict your opponents next move when you look at the statistics behind the game. Swagger is always an annoying move to deal with, which is why the vgc community looks down on those who use it
btw in that beedrill/clef/conk matchup, i would have led with Charizard/Venusaur so that venusaur could put the sweeper to sleep for charizard to proceed to knock the beedrill out with heat wave. mega beedrill needs a helping hand boost to ohko a charizard y withpoison sting, which leaves it open to sleep powder, and heat wave would ko the beedrill through follow me.
should i just breed another mamoswine or go for an ability capsule?
one thing is playing on the showdown simulator and another is going thou the grinind nessesary for getting these pokemon. i remember after 12+ eggs rotom got 31 on def and sdef but only 25 on satk and i went like "good enough". also getting flash cannon's tm is luck based
your team is also a char-y vgc, it seems much better organized than mine. on thin conversation we've changes 3 out of the original 6 of my team and now you suggest me to change the other 2. i'll only keep charizard and mamoswine but those 2 dont have the best nature so i should change them too? o gosh
my team right now is charizard-y; mamoswine; venusaur; rotom-w; aegis; terrakion. i think its pretty good.
either i change terra for creselia or venusaur for whimsi.
which would give me the most synergy?
Really sorry that ive suggested such big changes, if you need any help breeding, send me a pm and i can do some for you, ive got a 6IV ditto which makes everything easier :)
It might be hard facilitating a trade though, do you live in america? If so there will be a 5 hour time difference because im british :p
I would suggest swapping terrakion for cresselia, although whimsicott is breedable for better IVs.. Cresselia makes the team a lot more consistent but whimsicott helps get more quick wins with beat up justified etc, its preferable against friends and on low ladder.
Really sorry that ive suggested such big changes, if you need any help breeding, send me a pm and i can do some for you, ive got a 6IV ditto which makes everything easier :)
It might be hard facilitating a trade though, do you live in america? If so there will be a 5 hour time difference because im british :p
I would suggest swapping terrakion for cresselia, although whimsicott is breedable for better IVs.. Cresselia makes the team a lot more consistent but whimsicott helps get more quick wins with beat up justified etc, its preferable against friends and on low ladder.
i already had a beat up whimsicott cuz i used her with justified lucario back in XY when terra was not released. however she does not have the speed build to taunt thundurus so i'll have to use another one.
oh and here im reading your comments in american accent
this is my friends code
FC:1306 6880 6609
lets have a battle char vs char
