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Flamethrower VS Lava Plume

In 2 vs. 2s, Eruption is a better option because of the higher damage output (Of course there are a bunch of factors for that, but you get what I mean).
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Thats true. But then again, how many pokemon learn eruption? Its like saying Sacred Fire is better than Fire Blast :-p Of course, not many learn Lava Plume either...

Just like I maintain Thunderbolt is superior to Discharge except on certain Pokemon, I'll go on the record to say that Flamethrower is far superior to Lava Plume, based on the fact that Paralysis is a far better status than Burn is, and when you WANT to burn something, you have Will-o-wisp.
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WoW has much less accuracy than T-Wave however. So the Discharge vs T-Bolt argument favors T-Bolt + T-Wave far more than in this case. Yes, they are similar, but with Wisp's lower accuracy, you can't treat everything the exact same.

It should be noted that Torkoals Amnesia's cannot be hazed away thanks to his ability - meaning if played properly, he WILL be hanging around for a long time.
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I don't think anyone uses Haze anymore. With Stealth Rock out, I see PHazing attacks like Roar and so forth much more common.
 
Sir Spanky said:
Was that really worth making an account just to say ¬_¬
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Turismo2029 said:
Yeah, sup fellas who know who I am? >_>

As if Lava Plume isn't reliable enough, Torkoal's defences are massive and perhaps Rest over Hyper Beam/wtf move would be a better option combined with a Chesto Berry?
It'd allow you to get in an Amnesia or two perhaps aswell, with Torkoal the idea is to stay in for a long time - a move with 80 base power, STAB'd and a 30% chance of halving the opponents attack and dealing a little damage each turn is an excellent way to compliment Torkoals style of play.
Which is to survive a long time.

It should be noted that Torkoals Amnesia's cannot be hazed away thanks to his ability - meaning if played properly, he WILL be hanging around for a long time.

I see the reasoning in not having Rapid Spin on him though - I'll accept that, how's this:

TORKOAL@Chesto Berry/Leftovers

-Amnesia
-Lava Plume
-Rest
-Sleep Talk/Sludge Bomb

Screwed over by Flash Fires and water pokemon though.
Rest/Sleep Talk is just annoying especially if you were able to keep jacking up the defence of your choice.
Sludge Bomb on there somewhere would be nice to help out against fires and waters, not sure where it would fit in.

EDIT: TLX, Yoshi King thinks he's some kinda god here too bad I stomped him at MPH when we played and I would stomp him at pokemon anyday, lose the act Yoshi, I know you're shit.

But enough of this my topic, if you ain't gonna keep the trivial shit outta my topic, get the fuck out.
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Umm, Turi, I have to ask: Does your over-inflated ego just destroy what few brain cells you have? You and I have never, ever played a game on MP:H, ever. You challenged me a couple of times, but I retired looooooong (Longer than fucking longcat) before you started being all hyped up by the fanboys, so I refused. So back up and stop the cool act, it won't work here where we're actually intelligent and don't give a shit.

Also, don't go trying to spout you're god at Pokemon already. Jesus christ. I'm not trying to claim to be anything special (and you know what, I've never claimed to be amazing at MP:H or Pokemon either)- I used a mostly UU team that gets steamrolled by most teams, but I still have fun playing Pokemon because it's not really... you know, competitive. Step off and GB2/GameFAQs or just damnwell drop the "cool" act for goodness' sakes. You were fine until I called out someone else for being an idiotic fanboy, try and stay like that.

The moveset you posted, like you mentioned, gets walled by waters (especially Empoleon), and Sludge Bomb is redundant considering both it and Lava Plume hit Grass Super-effective.

To be completely honest I don't find any sort of stalling moveset on a fire type to be effective. It's just too poor of a defensive typing- for that reason alone you may want to try:

Torkoal@Chesto Berry
Rest
Heat Wave
Earthquake
Amnesia

You're better off raising your own defenses (depending on whether you predict your opponent will hit you with a special or physical attack) than hoping for a burn and in essence lowering your opponent's attack. Combined with Rest, it doesn't make it so bad, and it also helps give Earthquake a real punch. And, like Snorlax, you won't be losing much from the -Speed that Curse causes since practically everything outruns Torkoal anyways.

However, that set is still too much of a stall-esque type. I'm not sure what else to recommend.
 
A critical's going to pop up sooner or later, especially with stone edge running wild. And that set just can't handle stuff like tentacruel, who, if sent in early, can wash you away, or most rock types... And you people really need to calm down. Take some yoga classes or something.

EDIT: These threads never seem to update until I've posted something. -_- This is a response to Turi's post.
 
Yoga sucks and Empoleon is probably the only water Torkoal stands a chance against, what are you talking about?

He's half steel so he takes neutral damage from Lava Plume.
 
I just threw a bunch of infractions at people, if you're going to insult each other do it in PMs or Firebot or something.



Most of this argument is based on Heatran since none of the other plumers(for the most part anyway) really belong in OU and UU doesn't really have a analyzable metagame right now -

Anyway I don't really agree with your logic Dragontamer, or at least the basis of it. Yes, if you want a reliable burn, you're going to use Will-o-Wisp. That's the point of the move - to be the most reliable burn in the game.

However, much like you wouldn't use Body Slam when what you really want is Thunder Wave, I wouldn't use Lava Plume in situations I want Will-o-Wisp. They do different things; with Heatran's fairly massive Special Attack even resisters will take noticeable, if not impressive, damage from Plume, and with repeated switchins will probably get burned, helping Heatran wear them down. It's not really trying to compete with Will-o-Wisp because if all I want to do is burn the switch-in, then yes, obviously I would use WoW. Lava Plume is a passable primary attack and also has a beneficial added effect, which gives it a bit more strategic use and is handy in situations where you predict incorrectly or when it is too early in the battle to accurately predict how your opponent will react.

I think the main reason I like it on Heatran is that it is definitely a Pokemon that has more than 4 viable moves for each set and having both Will-o-Wisp and Flamethrower is sort of iffy. While Lava Plume is definitely not interchangeable with either of them, in ways it is a happy medium, allowing a much more reliable burn than Flamethrower with a fairly small attack power loss, freeing up a moveslot for something useful in more situations.


EDIT: And as far as trying to Rest with Torkoal, good luck doing that even in UU. Admittedly a lot more of the physical attacks are Normal rather than Stone Edge/Earthquake(who Torkoal definitely isn't going to stay in to take), but even ignoring the physical moves it is weak to, 70 base HP really limits the potential of the 140 base Defense. I could probably see you getting away with Chesto Rest if you're trying to get in and out a lot, but actually Amnesiaing up and Resting is going to be almost impossible against a decent team, UU or OU. Not to mention just switching in is potentially doing 25% to you with Stealth Rock up, which is going to make getting many Amnesias in before you pull a Rest of really tricky.
 
Yeah I guess Heatran is the best for it.

How about Magmortar? Or is he more of a "need the extra power" kinda guy?

Torkoal just looks cool, wanted to see if he had any uses really.. on a UU Fire Team he might work out. >_>
 
Turismo2029 said:
Yoga sucks and Empoleon is probably the only water Torkoal stands a chance against, what are you talking about?

He's half steel so he takes neutral damage from Lava Plume.
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I was mostly talking about the Sludge Bomb with the whole "especially Empoleon" thing. It's immune.

However, Lava Plume is special- Even if it's Neutral, Empoleon (with its base 101 Special Defense and 84 HP) isn't going to be hit particularly hard. Taking into account that Empoleon is likely to strictly use Special attacks, and Torkoal only has base 70 HP and Sp. Defense, it's not going to last long (likely being OHKOd by Surf, possibly even Brine thanks to STAB).

Empoleon's certainly not a counter, but it's not like Torkoal is going to be doing much damage to it.
 
Turismo2029 said:
Yeah I guess Heatran is the best for it.

How about Magmortar? Or is he more of a "need the extra power" kinda guy?

Torkoal just looks cool, wanted to see if he had any uses really.. on a UU Fire Team he might work out. >_>
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Magmortar has an "eh" ability, it would've been great if he got Flash Fire or some sort of Motor Drive copy. Statwise and movepool-wise he's decent enough, but his main concern is being outsped- 83 Speed can and will be outrun by a lot of OU that can possibly OHKO.

I'm not going to suggest a moveset for Magmortar- the possibilities are pretty large, you're smart enough to figure out a good one- but keep in mind it should largely play off of Special attack.
 
Torkoal could probably make a Curse/Chestorest set work though, eh?

Thought I'd drop this in:

The pokemon who learn Lava Plume are:

Typhlosion
Magcargo
Entei
Camerupt
Torkoal
Heatran

Heatran definately has a use for it, I guess Torkoal just isn't worth using thanks to Fire not being a good defensive typing, Entei could make it work since his defences and HP mean he'll be hanging around a while, so why not?
Typhlosion isn't good with it since Flamethrower is better on him (not great defences) and he can use Eruption on a speed set anyway, and Camerupt has better things to do, like Explode, or Trick Room-Eruptions.
Magcargo's typing is pathetic and he should probably be sticking to Flamethrower, with Recover though, Lava Plume might be a viable attack?
 
For Magmortar, to make use of Lava Plume, I got this:

-Lava Plume
-Thunderbolt/Psychic
-Confuse Ray?
-Cross Chop

Lava Plume hits hard with STAB and his high sp.atk so the extra burn chance is beneficial for Magmortar, in my opinion.
Thunderbolt to cover Gyarados but it's more for Empoleon, Psychic helps hit more types for neutral damage but TBolt covers his water weak - I'd use TBolt, switch out on Swampy. >_>;
Confuse Ray because what else is he meant to do, maybe Psychic would be better over this?
Cross Chop for any special walls, like Blissey, who would otherwise treat you as a joke.
 
Anyway I don't really agree with your logic Dragontamer, or at least the basis of it. Yes, if you want a reliable burn, you're going to use Will-o-Wisp. That's the point of the move - to be the most reliable burn in the game.

However, much like you wouldn't use Body Slam when what you really want is Thunder Wave, I wouldn't use Lava Plume in situations I want Will-o-Wisp. They do different things; with Heatran's fairly massive Special Attack even resisters will take noticeable, if not impressive, damage from Plume, and with repeated switchins will probably get burned, helping Heatran wear them down. It's not really trying to compete with Will-o-Wisp because if all I want to do is burn the switch-in, then yes, obviously I would use WoW. Lava Plume is a passable primary attack and also has a beneficial added effect, which gives it a bit more strategic use and is handy in situations where you predict incorrectly or when it is too early in the battle to accurately predict how your opponent will react.

I think the main reason I like it on Heatran is that it is definitely a Pokemon that has more than 4 viable moves for each set and having both Will-o-Wisp and Flamethrower is sort of iffy. While Lava Plume is definitely not interchangeable with either of them, in ways it is a happy medium, allowing a much more reliable burn than Flamethrower with a fairly small attack power loss, freeing up a moveslot for something useful in more situations.
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That is true. Now that I think of it, with a 51% chance that Lava Plume does a burn in 2 turns or less, thats actually quite good especially if it is your primary attack. For comparison, "Sing" only has 55% accuracy and that does no damage.
 
The way I see it, if you're using a Tank/Wall, go with Will-o-Wisp. If your using a Sweeper, go with Flamethrower/FireBlast. If your using a Bulky fire type, go with Lava Plume. Torkoal is better used a physical wall, Typhlosion as a special sweeper, and not sure who as a Bulky Fire type that isn't really a wall >.>, perhaps Camerupt. If your using a wall you want an attack that has a 100% chance of Burning, because if the opponent switches and uses Aromatherapy, and you rely on Lava Plume, then that'll be pretty rough. As a sweeper, you want max power and good accuracy, because with Lava Plume, you won't be sweeping much. And as a Bulky Fire type who's pretty much offensive, you want that high chance of burning alongside of attacking your opponent. Just my two cents.
 
Yeah but you don't use Lava Plume specifically to burn them it's more of a "well, it's strong enough and the side effect is worth using on this pokemon" thing.
 
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