Flareon Discussion

[Aielyn]

http://serebii.net/pokedex-dp/136.shtml

Flareon
Ability: Flash Fire
Type: Fire
Stats: HP 65/ATT 130/DEF 60/SP.ATT 95/SP.DEF 110/SPEED 65

I noticed that the "official" analysis of Flareon was done, and wanted to see what others had done - nothing, so here's a thread to discuss that hot little Eeveelution.

Some notable moves are:

Physical
Quick Attack
Bite
Fire Fang
Last Resort
Iron Tail
Return
Natural Gift
Flail
Covet

Special
Fire Blast
Hidden Power
Shadow Ball
Flamethrower
Overheat

Support
Roar
Toxic
Sunny Day
Protect
Endure
Will-o-wisp
Substitute
Charm
Curse
Tickle
Wish
Fake Tears
Baton Pass


Now, one thing I noticed in the "official" analysis was that no mention was made of Natural Gift, which has the potential to give Flareon a much-needed additional move type, given that it is otherwise restricted to Normal, Fire, Dark, and Steel (and technically Ground, but who would use Dig?). Also note that all sets will have a Fire type STAB attack, to make use of Flash Fire. So here's my Natural Gift sets:

Flareon@Passho Berry
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Att, 252 Def, 4 Speed or HP
- Natural Gift (Water 60)
- Will-o-wisp
- Fire Fang
- Return/Covet/Quick Attack/Roar/Charm

The idea is that, if Flareon is hit by a water attack, it will at least have a chance of surviving thanks to the Passho Berry. If the foe won't use a water attack, but rather an EQ or Rock attack, then Natural Gift should at least give Flareon a chance of hitting them for decent damage (especially if they are, for instance, Rock/Ground, which is 4x weak to it). Will-o-wisp helps to drop the foe's attack in Flareon's weak side (physical), while Fire Fang gives Flareon a STAB attack. The final move has a number of options. Return does a fair bit of damage, Covet may give Flareon a new item after water attack or Natural Gift, Quick Attack lets it get an attack in if the foe is faster and there's no alternatives, Roar and Charm help to pseudohaze (in conjunction with Will-o-wisp), with Charm having the advantage of weakening the foe's attack on Flareon's weak side, and Roar being sure to cause a switch-out.

Flareon@Liechi Berry or Salac Berry
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 Speed, 252 Att, 4 Def or HP
- Natural Gift (Grass 80 or Fighting 80)
- Endure
- Flail
- Fire Fang

This Flareon should work with a suitable Speed Baton-passer (Ninjask comes to mind - if it can baton-pass a couple of Attack boosts, too, all the better) - or you could shift the EVs into Defense or HP and make it a Trick Room pokemon. Natural Gift Grass hits all of Flareon's weak types (Water, Ground, Rock) for supereffective, or you can go with Endure and Flail to get the Liechi boost and Flail's max base power, with obvious other advantages. Fire Fang gives Flareon a STAB attack. The slight alternative, using the Salac Berry, improves Flareon's chances of pulling off a Flail (especially if you don't have a baton-passer), and the Fighting type attack hits Rock types (which are resistant to both Normal and Fire attacks).

Flareon@Salac Berry
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 Speed, 252 Att, 4 HP
- Natural Gift (Fighting 80)
- Substitute
- Will-o-wisp/Covet/another move
- Fire Fang

A slight alteration to the previous set, this time taking advantage of Substitute. 4 HP EVs gives Flareon a HP that is divisible by 4, so that after three Substitutes, the Salac Berry can kick in. Salac makes Natural gift the fighting type, which again handles Rock types, and expands Flareon's attack range. Covet would likely work well with this Flareon, but Will-o-wisp is also useful, and there are other options, too. As usual, Fire Fang provides the STAB attack.

Flareon@Ganlon Berry
Nature: Quiet or Rash
EVs: 252 Att, 252 SpAtt, 4 Speed
- Natural Gift (Ice 80)
- Fire Fang
- Hidden Power Grass
- Overheat/Flamethrower/Fire Blast

This is the surprise set - switch in on a fire attack (or anything else that won't hurt it too much), drive the foe to switch out to something that can take Flareon out... and use either Natural Gift or Hidden Power to demolish them. Natural Gift Ice handles Ground, Flying, and Dragon types (with Dragon types being resistant to Fire type attacks), while HP Grass takes on the other counters (Rock and Water, as well as Ground). The only pokemon that this Flareon can't hit for at least neutral damage is other fire types. Note that the Ganlon Berry is not meant to be used, but simply to provide the Natural Gift power. One alternative could be to give it a Passho, Shuca, or Charti berry, which can help protect against Water, Ground, or Rock type attacks, respectively, while giving Flareon an attack against its fellow fire types. Fire Fang and the last move are both STAB attacks, taking advantage of Flash Fire, and also ensuring that Flareon can hit on both sides decently. For more variety of types hit, change the last move to Shadow Ball or change Fire Fang to Covet, Bite, or Return.


EDIT: And before anyone mentions it, yes, I realise that Flareon is at risk from Stealth Rock, etc.

 

[Easton]

On the Natural Gift Flail set, I would actually consider running Salac Berry. Your opponent could possibly bring out a Quagsire or Gastrodon, which both can be rather difficult to take down, even with Flail. Natural Gift Grass should take care of this situation rather nicely. At the same time, Fighting covers Aggron and Mawile, who both rather wall that set bad and are more common, so Salac Berry is the better option IMO

 

[Aielyn]

On the Natural Gift Flail set, I would actually consider running Salac Berry. Your opponent could possibly bring out a Quagsire or Gastrodon, which both can be rather difficult to take down, even with Flail. Natural Gift Grass should take care of this situation rather nicely. At the same time, Fighting covers Aggron and Mawile, who both rather wall that set bad and are more common, so Salac Berry is the better option IMO

You have mixed them up - Salac is Fighting, and Liechi is Grass (at least according to this). That's why I suggested Liechi as the main option, and Salac as an alternative - Salac will boost the chance of getting off a Flail, but doesn't have the type coverage that Liechi has.

 

[Aielyn]

Is nobody else interested in this? Surely someone has some other comment on possible Flareon movesets?

Anyway, here's another moveset that might work on Flareon, this time a Focus Sash set:

Flareon @ Focus Sash
Nature: Jolly (or Naive if using Flamethrower or Overheat)
EVs: 252 Speed, 252 Att, 4 HP (or 252 SpA, 4 Att if using Flamethrower)
- Flail
- Fire Fang/Flamethrower/Overheat
- Yawn/Will-o-wisp
- Charm/Fake Tears/Protect/Bite/Will-o-wisp/Wish/Covet/Hidden Power

The idea is simple - Focus Sash frees up a move that would otherwise be taken up by Endure, while still giving Endure/Flail capability. You have a STAB attack, with Fire Fang/Overheat allowing you to max out Attack, or Flamethrower, which can OHKO max-HP Skarmory if given 252 SpA IVs. The STAB attack, as usual, also takes advantage of Flash Fire. Yawn gives you the ability to PHaze in a decent manner, although it can be replaced by Will-o-wisp (which also covers Flareon's weaker side, Defense) for a different kind of advantage. For the final move, you have a few options, including Charm or Fake Tears for discouraging Baton Passers (and Fake Tears also allowing Flamethrower/Overheat to hit harder, if you choose one of those), Protect allows Flareon to stall with either Yawn or Will-o-wisp for some advantage, Bite expands Flareon's attack type range, you could have both Yawn and Will-o-wisp, Wish may be helpful for healing back up after a Focus Sash'd Flail, and Covet allows you to replace the Focus Sash with an item after it is used (with obvious advantages when used on Choice Banders and Choice Sashers, and Choice Specs if you go with Flamethrower or Overheat - I'm assuming that Coveting Choice items doesn't lock you into Covet). Hidden Power is also an option if you want to significantly improve the attack typeset, and are using Flamethrower as your STAB attack (best choice being Grass type).

252 Speed EVs and a +Spe nature gives Flareon a speed of 251, which allows it to outspeed a few significant pokemon, such as max-neutral speed Skarmory, max speed Rampardos, or even max-speed Tyranitar (although you wouldn't bring Flareon out against it, there may be some advantage to being faster if you're stuck with it and you have HP Grass as your last move, or want to will-o-wisp it before it hits you). Since this is a Focus-sash Flail set, defenses aren't really an issue, so a -SpD nature is suitable (-Def is a bad idea, Flareon's Defense is already more than low enough), but if you're only using physical attacks, Jolly is a better choice. Of course, you could go with a -Spe nature and 0 Spe EVs, if you wanted this on a trick room team (in which case, you could boost Att or SpA, whichever you prefer).

252 Att on a Jolly Flareon will boost Flail's power, as well as Covet or Bite if you choose to use one of them (not to mention Fire Fang). On a Naive Flareon, Overheat on will almost certainly still take out the standard max-HP Skarmory with 0 SpA EVs - given bad luck, the Skarmory may just barely hold on with 2 HP points if it hits minimum damage.

252 SpA on a Naive Flareon will ensure that Flamethrower hits max-HP Skarmory for a OHKO (at least 244 SpA will do this, but you may want those extra 8 EVs in case max-HP Skarmory has 4 EVs in SpD).

Note that I am using Skarmory as my example simply as a demonstration - there is a decent chance that you won't want Flareon facing Skarmory due to Stealth Rock, and if Skarmory doesn't have Roar, it will be more likely to be switched out if faced with Flareon (due to the risk of the above Fire damage). However, since Skarmory is the standard physical wall, it doesn't hurt to see how Flareon would handle it.

 

[ihcati]

He wont be sweeping with less than mediocre speed anytime soon, so I think its best to stick with EndRev set. I think Flareon has to choose between suppport or attack, but not both.

 

[Aielyn]

He wont be sweeping with less than mediocre speed anytime soon, so I think its best to stick with EndRev set. I think Flareon has to choose between suppport or attack, but not both.

Well, you can always baton-pass some speed to him, if necessary, or use him on a Trick Room team. But other than that, I wouldn't expect him to be a sweeper. That doesn't mean that he can't attack effectively, just that you shouldn't expect him to be able to take down the opponent's entire team on its own.

It is also worth noting that a lot of the pokemon that Flareon can't normally handle are faster than him, so it's not like it's missing out on anything because of it. On the other hand, the "surprise" set is for handling one such pokemon when you bring Flareon in on something that can't handle him (because you can hit their counter with the surprise moves as they come in).

 

[Samson]

i use flareon solely for its sp def and attack stats.

Flareon @ Leichi Berry
Careful Nature (+ Sp Def, - Sp Atk)
200 HP/184 SP DEF/100 SPD/24 ATK
-Fire Fang
-Natural Gift (80 BP GRASS)
-Will-o-Wisp
-Roar

i use it alongside my Espeon w/ Reflect cus Espeon usually invites in special walls. flareon comes in and WoW's the switch-in.

 

[Aielyn]

Well I did say I wanted to use curse :\

@Leftovers I guess
Curse
Yawn/Will-o-Wisp
Fire Fang
Double-Edge/Return or something else

If you use it right, it might work. I think Flareon is one of the ones whom you would want to Baton Pass an Agility onto. At any rate... you use Curse and Yawn to your advantage, Yawning, then Cursing. >.> Woopdeedoo. Flareon could do more if it had a Reflect or something. Will-o-wisp can also be an option. You can also switch it in on Special Fire type pokemon (like Houndoom).

I think Flareon's new ability should've been Flame Absorb. Or Fire Absorb. >.> Absorb's HP when hit by a Fire Attack. Then it would be a lot better.

I'm wondering whether or not you should consider Zoom Lens for that curse set. Curse will drop your speed, anyway, so you should generally hit last, so Zoom Lens will boost accuracy by 20%. That's enough to ensure that Fire Fang hits, and that Will-o-wisp has a more than 90% accuracy. As for the last move, Flareon can't know Double Edge, and Return is decent, but probably not the best option. I think that Quick Attack would be worth considering, in order to compensate for the low speed, just in case you need it. Iron Tail would also be worth considering, with the Zoom Lens boosting the accuracy, again (the downside being, you have nothing against Water types - but then, water types will beat flareon before he can get a move off, anyway).

EDIT: Oh, and I agree that Flareon should have gotten a fire-absorbing ability (probably "Heat Absorb" or "Metabolise" or something). Indeed, all of the Eeveelutions should have gotten an ability that allows absorbing of their respective attack types - it would give them all (except Jolteon and Vaporeon, of course) a new use. At least Flareon gets Flash Fire, which may not ABSORB fire, but it does block it from causing any damage. It would certainly be interesting to have Dark, Psychic, Grass, and Ice absorbing abilities on the respective Eeveelutions.

 

[Blackbeltsam]

You know, since Flareon's SP Def. stat is already beefy, couldn't Flareon, theoretically, make a good curse passer?


I mean, train up the defensive stats, curse, than pass.

 

[Aielyn]

You know, since Flareon's SP Def. stat is already beefy, couldn't Flareon, theoretically, make a good curse passer?


I mean, train up the defensive stats, curse, than pass.

It should be possible, but you would probably have to sacrifice Flareon's attacking ability to really pull it off...

I'm thinking
Flareon @ Zoom Lens/Leftovers
+Def -Att (or +Def - SpA), 252 HP, and the Def/SpD splitting of the remaining 256 is up to you.
- Curse
- Baton Pass
- Yawn
- Will-o-wisp/Fire Fang

If you're going with Will-o-wisp, best to choose Zoom Lens (which, after Cursing, will basically always boost Will-o-wisp's accuracy by 20%, making it 84% accurate), while Leftovers would be better paired with Fire Fang. You can choose your Defenses splitting to suit the way you will play it.

Yawn gives you a way to force the foe to switch out, while Will-o-wisp is more about dropping the foe's Attack while giving Flareon a chance of at least causing SOME damage, even if indirectly. Fire Fang is an option if you want to make use of Flash Fire (in which case, -SpA would be a better choice of nature), while still giving a chance of burning. You could alternatively go with Overheat or Flamethrower, in which case you would go with a -Att nature - but you won't get the Curse boost to those moves.

 

[Hypnotist]

I'm wondering whether or not you should consider Zoom Lens for that curse set. Curse will drop your speed, anyway, so you should generally hit last, so Zoom Lens will boost accuracy by 20%. That's enough to ensure that Fire Fang hits, and that Will-o-wisp has a more than 90% accuracy. As for the last move, Flareon can't know Double Edge, and Return is decent, but probably not the best option. I think that Quick Attack would be worth considering, in order to compensate for the low speed, just in case you need it. Iron Tail would also be worth considering, with the Zoom Lens boosting the accuracy, again (the downside being, you have nothing against Water types - but then, water types will beat flareon before he can get a move off, anyway).

EDIT: Oh, and I agree that Flareon should have gotten a fire-absorbing ability (probably "Heat Absorb" or "Metabolise" or something). Indeed, all of the Eeveelutions should have gotten an ability that allows absorbing of their respective attack types - it would give them all (except Jolteon and Vaporeon, of course) a new use. At least Flareon gets Flash Fire, which may not ABSORB fire, but it does block it from causing any damage. It would certainly be interesting to have Dark, Psychic, Grass, and Ice absorbing abilities on the respective Eeveelutions.

Heh, yeah... actually, Flareon does learn Double-edge. It's an Fr/Lg/E Move Tutor move for it :). So it definitely can. That's what I thought at first as well, until I clicked and realized that it indeed learned Double-Edge.

As for the idea of each Eevee absorbing their respective types... hmm... I don't know... I was just thinking about Flareon at the moment. An umbreon that absorbs dark attacks could be pretty scary.

About the Zoom Lens. Yeah, I guess your right. Maybe it might be better to use Zoom Lens.

 

[Aielyn]

OK, surgo has kindly agreed to reopen the thread, and has cleared out the muk (sorry, I mean muck) that had built up around the decent posts.

Please, everyone, lets try not to make random, awful movesets, and lets not get into arguments over whether this move is generally worthless, or other such arguments. Lets try to stick to the topic, which is Flareon movesets.

Now, someone mentioned, in one of the posts that have been deleted, a moveset involving Dig. This got me thinking.

Flareon @ Ganlon Berry
Natures and EVs discussed below
- Dig
- Fire Fang/Overheat
- Natural Gift (Ice type 80)
- HP Grass or Electric/Bite/Shadow Ball

The idea, in a nutshell, is that Dig will be used, initially, to scare the opponent into switching in a Flying type (or a levitator, many of which are weak to Fire, Ice, or Grass or Electric or Dark/Ghost), at which point you use your Natural Gift or Hidden Power (or Bite/Shadow Ball) to take out whoever they switch in.

Best used after switching in on a Fire type using a Fire move, although it should handle a number of other situations. Later in the match, Dig may be of some assistance coming when they are down to their last pokemon, or in other similar situations. It can also work well if paired with a Mean Look passer, or a speed passer.

EDIT: OK, time for some analysis of this. First is which final move is most suitable. Flying types are generally hit strongly by NG Ice, with the exceptions of dual types with Steel, Water, Fire, and Ice. Skarmory (steel) and Delibird and Articuno (Ice) are hit by Fire Fang, so they are handled. Charizard, Moltres and Ho-oh (fire) and Gyarados, Mantine and Pelipper (water) would be hit by Electric, so HP Electric is an option.

The other category of obvious switch-ins are the levitators. In that category we have: Bronzong and Carnivine hit by Fire Fang. Flygon, Claydol, and Lati@s hit by NG Ice. That leaves Gengar, Unown, Lunatone/Solrock, Chimecho, Mismagius, Rotom, the three pixies, and Cresselia who are all hit hard by Ghost or Dark type attacks, and Weezing who is hit hard by Psychic. Hence the suggestion of Bite or Shadow Ball.

Then there are the Flareon counters that can actually survive a dig easily. What comes to mind are Rhyperior, Swampert, and a large number of other Ground and Water types. Ground types are hit by NG Ice. Electric would hit Water types (excluding Swampert). The best way to hit both, however, and hit Swampert hard, is using Grass. This is why HP Grass may be worth considering. So in the simplest sense, you have the Ghost and Psychic levitators who are hit best by Dark/Ghost, Gyarados and most water types hit best by Electric, and Grass to hit the direct type-based counters. No doubt I've forgotten a few, but I'll stop here, having made my point.

When it comes to natures and EVs, you have to consider who you are tailoring the team to. 252 Att and +Att nature will all-but ensure that Fire Fang can 2HKO max-defense min-HP Skarmory. Alternatively, if you go with Overheat rather than Fire Fang, you can hit min-neutral SpDef max-HP Skarmory for a OHKO with just 4 SpA EVs and neutral-SpA nature. With just 56 Att and neutral-Att nature, you can be certain to OHKO min-neutral Def, 120 HP (based on smogon's analysis) Salamence. Meanwhile, even max-SpA HP Electric will not OHKO Gyarados. Gengar won't be OHKOed by either max-Attack Bite or max-SpA Shadow Ball. Neither Solid Rock Rhyperior nor Swampert won't be KOed by Dig followed by HP Grass, even with max-SpA and max-neutral Att.

The lesson is, that final move is probably only going to be used if you have already baton-passed some attack or Special Attack to Flareon. Of course, you really should baton-pass some speed onto Flareon either way, so it can't be too much of a problem to pass some Attack or Special Attack along with it.

Max speed is 251, which places it a little faster than no-speed Mismagius, and faster than max-speed Tyranitar. A better option would be to knock 20 EVs off, and still stay faster than no-speed Mismagius - it is also acceptable with a one-stage speed boost.

Please, discuss - is this a workable moveset?