It IS OMoTM because the community voted for it. Can't blame anyone (well the devs ig but don't give them a hard time) for the code not being implemented correctly. Should be fixed before the day ends if not oh well the OM will be available for the entire month.
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Metagame Formemons
- Thread starter Chessking345
- Start date
Hello! Just hit top ladder(1216 nothing too crazy), very fun albeit centralized metagame. A couple thoughts-
Mega-Rayquaza should definitely banned and Rayquaza not be allowed to mega evolve into it. There's counter play but good lord. In an over-centralized meta-game this is the centralizers of centralizers. we do not need a meta where you can have 2 mega rays, like seriously wtf
I haven't really seen any defensive counterplay to just about anything so far but sash is very effective as I think I'm the only person running hazards. Speaking of hazards, Custap Araq is really really nice and switches in really easily into Kyogre
Sash Ghold is really nice, being able to block defog, t wave, and memento for momentum in this HO focused meta
Don't bother running Diancie or Sableye, they're just gonna get nuked
Very fun so far, excited to see what develops
Mega-Rayquaza should definitely banned and Rayquaza not be allowed to mega evolve into it. There's counter play but good lord. In an over-centralized meta-game this is the centralizers of centralizers. we do not need a meta where you can have 2 mega rays, like seriously wtf
I haven't really seen any defensive counterplay to just about anything so far but sash is very effective as I think I'm the only person running hazards. Speaking of hazards, Custap Araq is really really nice and switches in really easily into Kyogre
Sash Ghold is really nice, being able to block defog, t wave, and memento for momentum in this HO focused meta
Don't bother running Diancie or Sableye, they're just gonna get nuked
Very fun so far, excited to see what develops
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hit 1st at one point but lost to glory couple times so I'm at 2nd rn, but here are my thoughts:
IMO mega ray should be banned, there is a bit of counterplay but not enough for it to stay and even with counter play you can use a multitude of different sets to beat a certain counter.
i used HO so here are my thoughts on it as a playstyle for the tier (glory was glazing my team).
HO id say is pretty good I used webs initially and later switched to mega diancie lead. Webs for me was very subpar and just felt like a wasted slot, mega diancie on the other hand fells pretty good to use as a suicide lead. It gets rocks and spikes and the best move for it is endevor which helps cripple balance teams. hazards in general also feel very good in the tier since they help a lot with counter acting mega ray and groudon.
rn I think the best mons are mega ray (obviously), m2 y, groudon and kyogre. I also feel like zacian is pretty solid.
also I believe that the arcs are decent, mainly arc dark due to the fact it has a boosted foul play for things like mega ray but I haven't used any arcs so idk how good they are, I've just seen glory use 3 of them and a couple of others.
fun metagame cant wait to see how it changes in the future
https://pokepast.es/5055762f152de2d4 here's my team if anyone wants to use it
IMO mega ray should be banned, there is a bit of counterplay but not enough for it to stay and even with counter play you can use a multitude of different sets to beat a certain counter.
i used HO so here are my thoughts on it as a playstyle for the tier (glory was glazing my team).
rn I think the best mons are mega ray (obviously), m2 y, groudon and kyogre. I also feel like zacian is pretty solid.
also I believe that the arcs are decent, mainly arc dark due to the fact it has a boosted foul play for things like mega ray but I haven't used any arcs so idk how good they are, I've just seen glory use 3 of them and a couple of others.
fun metagame cant wait to see how it changes in the future
https://pokepast.es/5055762f152de2d4 here's my team if anyone wants to use it
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I originally was planning to post this after everything was working but most things are rn with only the nuances of Double Ray and no Pikachu.
I haven't laddered yet but I played in most roomtours and several private challenges with a couple teams so these are some initial thoughts on individual mon placements
Top
I think this is a clear number 1. Offensively it might not be as scary as some other threats like number 2 especially with the loss of Rock Polish but it provides immense amounts of defensive presence and utility, and is still hard af to check. Being able to hold leftovers alone massively boosts its longevity, it is one of if not the best hazard setter (good user of Spikes since it can stick around for multiple layers but can easily run Rocks if team lacks rocker), is the best and one of the only checks to Primal Kyogre, blanket checks other threats like Zacian-C. No reason not to run this on any non-stall team. It's also pretty healthy from what I've seen, though I've mostly only seen defensive sets.
Very easily the number 1 offensive presence, even without V-create. Some good defensive utility by checking offensive PDon sets, an extremely strong Extreme Speed which provides utility in every matchup, especially with immunity to Webs. Great Tera user too, Tera Normal makes ESpeed a nuke and Flying Dragon Ascent a nuke. Only issue is that its speed tier is a bit awkward esp with unlimited Arc, and that every team is going to prep for it so DD can't just easily win often, and rocks weakness.
High
Almost the only real removal, realistically best PDon check, and item slot though cutting into power gives great longevity. One noteworthy thing is because PDon has leftovers and Gira-O lost Toxic, it kind of needs to run Shadow Ball to consistently pressure PDon since Hex is way too weak. Leftovers generally best option with 4th being like status or CM, though I've played around with RestChesto.
Kyogre is very good. Its checked by PDon yes but its also like only checked by PDon which makes gameplay very predictable, and you always can run like Earthquake to chunk it for 40+. Defensive presence is good, it can live almost any hit and even without much investment Origin Pulse is a nuke. I almost always run Thunder Wave, it just provides so much utility and avoids a lot of Tera mindgames, and nothing wants to switch into TWave outside of again PDon. Last slot I've ran Protect CM EQ, Tect is definitely nice for racking up leftovers recovery and being really annoying for choiced users if they wanted to try to use Kyogre as an entry.
Very splashable, since it is basically the fastest mon in the tier and provides really good offensive checking potential by winning 1v1 vs like every offensive mon. Can check boosted Ray with Tera mindgames, checks MMY Diancie etc you name it. All of this while retaining as a strong offensive threat, PDon can end up being overloaded and is always wary of boosts stacked Close Combat or Tera Ground.
Good
EKiller definitely good. I have only used Bulk Up though. Extreme Speed simply provides infinite utility in a more offensive tier.
It greatly offensively threatens PDon (unlike say Gira or Lati who has to wittle it down).
Good defensive type. Hits pre-Tera Ray super effectively with STAB, checks Koraidon well.
Hazard are really good and so Magic Bounce is very valuable, while having access to both rocks and spikes itself. Having Diancie means opposing HO leads always have to play the skill swap mindgames. 3A is the most obvious with other options including Encore Endeavor. Balloon with notable hp investment can check Ray from full, and Sash is always useful on Offenses.
Ok
Toxic Spikes can be really broken and offensive Meteor Beam sets are still solid on HO from experience. Having to run Sludge Bomb is a bit annoying otherwise stone walled by Diancie, because it means dropping Toxic. Also running TSpikes with dual STAB means free entry for Steels, and Diancie means Meteor Beam sets actually have 4MSS since it has to pick between Agility and Sludge Bomb on non-Webs. Also every time I ran Toxic Spikes I'm loading into some fast team that doesn't really give me good opportunities to get it up and get value.
Weird mon, the one time I've used it it was the worst RNG mon ever. On paper it completely walls some stuff but at the same time it really doesn't like any of the Weather Trio. Ray can't switch in but easily destroys Ho-Oh, Kyogre uses it as entry point, and without Toxic dealing with Lefties Groudon is very annoying.
I'm not a huge fan of Koraidon, its definitely still very good with a commanding speed tier and unlike Zac-C a free item slot, but I think wallbreaker/setup sets are probably better than scarf which kind of doesn't have as high damage output as it would like esp with stuff like MultiArc and Kyogre. Weather Trio perma weathers also override OriPulse and while it still boosts under Desoland PDon has plenty of bulk to live and wisp, or just switch out and remove the boost. Scale Shot does have a good potential to snowballing though if theres no Fairyceus/Alt.
Extremely fast, but ESpeed vulnerability compared to Zacc or Korai hurts. Its also not that strong due to no ability and middling coverage power. I've tried Scarf w/ Tera Ghost as an alternative speed control that outspeeds Korai, but the output is very middling.
Physically defensive NDM is kind of a Ray check while checking ZacC. It doesn't really punish hard back immediately because it doesn't learn stuff like TWave but still can do decently, and Knock Off means PDon doesn't want to switch-in. Doesn't like Kyogre being able to mostly switch in and halve its recovery.
Pretty solid Ray check since STAB Foul Play is good. Also has STAB Knock Off and Rocks to allow PDon to spike. No recovery isn't as bad since it can potentially afford lefties or chesto over shuca, though I think you want like Twave or something last to not let Arceus formes in.
Useable
Its a defogger with some defensive presence like checking Koraidon, and uhh... fish for Body Slam paras on everything else? Being extremely reliant on 30% for several guys most notably PDon is abysmal.
Fastest hazard lead, Skill Swap can bypass Magic Bounce.
I've tried this as a bulkier hazard lead with Balloon. Draco/Steel Beam/Fire Blast/Rocks hasn't been terrible from my experience, and when paired with another lead like Diancie both can double as checks to Ray eg.
Imposter good.
Actually pretty good stats, speed tier is a bit unfortunate but dual STABs has generally good neutral coverage, and it has U-turn, both Spikes, and a strong priority in Water Shuriken (20 BP x3). Unfortunately abilityless so not that strong in reality and Water STAB is not spammable at all while Dark Pulse is weak.
Shadow Shield can't be bad, but a lot of stuff pressure it too much from what I've tried.
Best webs setter, has Skill Swap.
The bulk is ass like uninvested PDon Blades does 50 max. But its a Bouncer thats not Diancie, so niche on bulkier teams.
Checks Ray and sets Spikes. However its full Giratina fodder.
Have not seen/used enough but promising/niche enough?
*
Unlimited Arc formes surely means some are good, stand out ones include Dark, Water. Someone thinks Steel is good I don't think its that great but its useable.
Prankster Encore + DBond + strong Poltergeist + ESpeed immunity. You can force trades very well in theory, though it can have issues actually switching in to do its disturbing.
Shell Smash, but its really slow, outspeeding NDM by 1 is not something impressive. Prevalence of Extreme Speed also doesn't help. Maybe some spinning utility on offensive teams?
Mostly outclassed by Koraidon? But its not reliant on hitting Scale Shot to speed boost.
OTR has to be decent. Though it absolutely does not like either Primal.
Pure offensive sets might be sketch since fair bit of competition from MMY, but it is the fastest mon in the tier not named Deo-S. Can probably also pull off lead sets.
Toxic Debris lead.
Screens lead.
(Latias)
PDon check with recovery. However idk what it can do, maybe Healing Wish shenanigans. So far CM TWave heavy phys def didn't feel that bad in like the one game I used it.
This is probably not actually useable since its speed tier is so abysmal and its not strong enough for either Bullet Punch or Vacuum Wave to do stuff. It also has terrible synergy with Tera which means its a lot weaker than one would think.
Feels awkward because its bulk and typing is quite ass to setup, and the speed tier sucks too without Dragon Dance. Post DD can be spooky but then the fast Scarfers and ESpeeds come around.
Mence is not actually completely outclassed by Ray they kind of are distinct enough since Mence is faster, physically bulkier, and equally strong with Flying moves. Roost sets are obviously the way to go and Facade is excellent. Last move I've looked into Iron Defense to neuter revenge-killing but EQ can also be an option though its quite awkward when you get burned.
Fast mon with Shed Tail so its kind of never deadweight? Though its too fast to safely pass Shed Tails a lot of times.
Slowbro kind of gets overwhelmed by Ray existing since it can't KO back unless after Rocks and -1 I think and its too slow to use TWave and then attack. However its still fat af and can maybe annoy PDon and stuff, needs Iron Defense though I think to beat SD.
Venusaur the Kyogre check??
I haven't laddered yet but I played in most roomtours and several private challenges with a couple teams so these are some initial thoughts on individual mon placements
Top
I think this is a clear number 1. Offensively it might not be as scary as some other threats like number 2 especially with the loss of Rock Polish but it provides immense amounts of defensive presence and utility, and is still hard af to check. Being able to hold leftovers alone massively boosts its longevity, it is one of if not the best hazard setter (good user of Spikes since it can stick around for multiple layers but can easily run Rocks if team lacks rocker), is the best and one of the only checks to Primal Kyogre, blanket checks other threats like Zacian-C. No reason not to run this on any non-stall team. It's also pretty healthy from what I've seen, though I've mostly only seen defensive sets.
Very easily the number 1 offensive presence, even without V-create. Some good defensive utility by checking offensive PDon sets, an extremely strong Extreme Speed which provides utility in every matchup, especially with immunity to Webs. Great Tera user too, Tera Normal makes ESpeed a nuke and Flying Dragon Ascent a nuke. Only issue is that its speed tier is a bit awkward esp with unlimited Arc, and that every team is going to prep for it so DD can't just easily win often, and rocks weakness.
High
Almost the only real removal, realistically best PDon check, and item slot though cutting into power gives great longevity. One noteworthy thing is because PDon has leftovers and Gira-O lost Toxic, it kind of needs to run Shadow Ball to consistently pressure PDon since Hex is way too weak. Leftovers generally best option with 4th being like status or CM, though I've played around with RestChesto.
Kyogre is very good. Its checked by PDon yes but its also like only checked by PDon which makes gameplay very predictable, and you always can run like Earthquake to chunk it for 40+. Defensive presence is good, it can live almost any hit and even without much investment Origin Pulse is a nuke. I almost always run Thunder Wave, it just provides so much utility and avoids a lot of Tera mindgames, and nothing wants to switch into TWave outside of again PDon. Last slot I've ran Protect CM EQ, Tect is definitely nice for racking up leftovers recovery and being really annoying for choiced users if they wanted to try to use Kyogre as an entry.
Very splashable, since it is basically the fastest mon in the tier and provides really good offensive checking potential by winning 1v1 vs like every offensive mon. Can check boosted Ray with Tera mindgames, checks MMY Diancie etc you name it. All of this while retaining as a strong offensive threat, PDon can end up being overloaded and is always wary of boosts stacked Close Combat or Tera Ground.
Good
EKiller definitely good. I have only used Bulk Up though. Extreme Speed simply provides infinite utility in a more offensive tier.
It greatly offensively threatens PDon (unlike say Gira or Lati who has to wittle it down).
Good defensive type. Hits pre-Tera Ray super effectively with STAB, checks Koraidon well.
Hazard are really good and so Magic Bounce is very valuable, while having access to both rocks and spikes itself. Having Diancie means opposing HO leads always have to play the skill swap mindgames. 3A is the most obvious with other options including Encore Endeavor. Balloon with notable hp investment can check Ray from full, and Sash is always useful on Offenses.
Ok
Toxic Spikes can be really broken and offensive Meteor Beam sets are still solid on HO from experience. Having to run Sludge Bomb is a bit annoying otherwise stone walled by Diancie, because it means dropping Toxic. Also running TSpikes with dual STAB means free entry for Steels, and Diancie means Meteor Beam sets actually have 4MSS since it has to pick between Agility and Sludge Bomb on non-Webs. Also every time I ran Toxic Spikes I'm loading into some fast team that doesn't really give me good opportunities to get it up and get value.
Weird mon, the one time I've used it it was the worst RNG mon ever. On paper it completely walls some stuff but at the same time it really doesn't like any of the Weather Trio. Ray can't switch in but easily destroys Ho-Oh, Kyogre uses it as entry point, and without Toxic dealing with Lefties Groudon is very annoying.
I'm not a huge fan of Koraidon, its definitely still very good with a commanding speed tier and unlike Zac-C a free item slot, but I think wallbreaker/setup sets are probably better than scarf which kind of doesn't have as high damage output as it would like esp with stuff like MultiArc and Kyogre. Weather Trio perma weathers also override OriPulse and while it still boosts under Desoland PDon has plenty of bulk to live and wisp, or just switch out and remove the boost. Scale Shot does have a good potential to snowballing though if theres no Fairyceus/Alt.
Extremely fast, but ESpeed vulnerability compared to Zacc or Korai hurts. Its also not that strong due to no ability and middling coverage power. I've tried Scarf w/ Tera Ghost as an alternative speed control that outspeeds Korai, but the output is very middling.
Physically defensive NDM is kind of a Ray check while checking ZacC. It doesn't really punish hard back immediately because it doesn't learn stuff like TWave but still can do decently, and Knock Off means PDon doesn't want to switch-in. Doesn't like Kyogre being able to mostly switch in and halve its recovery.
Pretty solid Ray check since STAB Foul Play is good. Also has STAB Knock Off and Rocks to allow PDon to spike. No recovery isn't as bad since it can potentially afford lefties or chesto over shuca, though I think you want like Twave or something last to not let Arceus formes in.
Useable
Its a defogger with some defensive presence like checking Koraidon, and uhh... fish for Body Slam paras on everything else? Being extremely reliant on 30% for several guys most notably PDon is abysmal.
Fastest hazard lead, Skill Swap can bypass Magic Bounce.
I've tried this as a bulkier hazard lead with Balloon. Draco/Steel Beam/Fire Blast/Rocks hasn't been terrible from my experience, and when paired with another lead like Diancie both can double as checks to Ray eg.
Imposter good.
Actually pretty good stats, speed tier is a bit unfortunate but dual STABs has generally good neutral coverage, and it has U-turn, both Spikes, and a strong priority in Water Shuriken (20 BP x3). Unfortunately abilityless so not that strong in reality and Water STAB is not spammable at all while Dark Pulse is weak.
Shadow Shield can't be bad, but a lot of stuff pressure it too much from what I've tried.
Best webs setter, has Skill Swap.
The bulk is ass like uninvested PDon Blades does 50 max. But its a Bouncer thats not Diancie, so niche on bulkier teams.
Checks Ray and sets Spikes. However its full Giratina fodder.
Have not seen/used enough but promising/niche enough?
*Unlimited Arc formes surely means some are good, stand out ones include Dark, Water. Someone thinks Steel is good I don't think its that great but its useable.
Prankster Encore + DBond + strong Poltergeist + ESpeed immunity. You can force trades very well in theory, though it can have issues actually switching in to do its disturbing.
Shell Smash, but its really slow, outspeeding NDM by 1 is not something impressive. Prevalence of Extreme Speed also doesn't help. Maybe some spinning utility on offensive teams?
Mostly outclassed by Koraidon? But its not reliant on hitting Scale Shot to speed boost.
OTR has to be decent. Though it absolutely does not like either Primal.
Pure offensive sets might be sketch since fair bit of competition from MMY, but it is the fastest mon in the tier not named Deo-S. Can probably also pull off lead sets.
Toxic Debris lead.
Screens lead.
(Latias)PDon check with recovery. However idk what it can do, maybe Healing Wish shenanigans. So far CM TWave heavy phys def didn't feel that bad in like the one game I used it.
This is probably not actually useable since its speed tier is so abysmal and its not strong enough for either Bullet Punch or Vacuum Wave to do stuff. It also has terrible synergy with Tera which means its a lot weaker than one would think.
Feels awkward because its bulk and typing is quite ass to setup, and the speed tier sucks too without Dragon Dance. Post DD can be spooky but then the fast Scarfers and ESpeeds come around.
Mence is not actually completely outclassed by Ray they kind of are distinct enough since Mence is faster, physically bulkier, and equally strong with Flying moves. Roost sets are obviously the way to go and Facade is excellent. Last move I've looked into Iron Defense to neuter revenge-killing but EQ can also be an option though its quite awkward when you get burned.
Fast mon with Shed Tail so its kind of never deadweight? Though its too fast to safely pass Shed Tails a lot of times.
Slowbro kind of gets overwhelmed by Ray existing since it can't KO back unless after Rocks and -1 I think and its too slow to use TWave and then attack. However its still fat af and can maybe annoy PDon and stuff, needs Iron Defense though I think to beat SD.
Venusaur the Kyogre check??
I had a thought actually about Slowbro-Mega. Would it be possible for it to run a moveset that would validate on Slowbro-Galar? It’s not implemented like this currently but this would match the interpretation that National Dex uses (Slowbro-Galar being able to use Slowbronite to Mega Evolve into Slowbro-Mega) so there is some precedent for it. It seems consistent for it to work like this here following that same logic. This would also represent a buff for Slowbro-Mega, letting it use Toxic but not on the same set as Scald. Would like to hear what others think.
National Dex assumes stuff, it can't be used as precedent, only the mainline videogames can be used as precedent for mechanics.
How likely is tera to be banned in this meta? I only play meta's with tera banned and I'm interested in this one since its the OM rn
Hoping tera isn't banned.
The flexibility is really important for checking threats in a pinch and to remove tera would also remove a big dimension of the metagame in letting megas tera.
General comments on the metagame:
- Mega Ray is surprisingly 'ok'? I really hope it doesn't get the boot, it's part of why the tier is as fun as it is. A few things that make it manageable imo are:
1. Being able to run multiple arceus: fairyceus and foul play darkceus are pretty good mray checks, especially with tera steel or rock. Running one fast arceus and one slow arceus to mix things up to account for both sd and dd is an option too which helps a lot imo.
2. Twave and mray itself being everywhere. Mray can't switch into much safely because instead of spamming toxic like they do in natdex, it seems the move is to spam twave which is significantly worse for offensive teams. Its own prevalence ironically means every team has the ability to revenge kill it with itself after it is chipped, and you also probably have to run jolly to win espeed ties too
3. Tera is a mixed bag, tera normal mray is imo the best because do you really need more power on dragon ascent lol? A sudden tera ghost or steel is a pretty big issue for its prospects of sweeping given its relative frailty
- Ho-oh seems mid without toxic, lefties pdon comes in pretty easily which is an issue for obvious reasons
- Tspikes is really good but eternatus itself doesn't do much beyond that while not checking much besides Kyogre who twaves it anyway
- Scale shot koraidon still good on HO with tera ghost, wouldn't use scarf though, way too many immunities and resists to be locked into one move
- Best non-ray mega is mega diancie imo, insane HO lead
- I think mega blastoise is pretty good and underused too due to tera and white herb
The flexibility is really important for checking threats in a pinch and to remove tera would also remove a big dimension of the metagame in letting megas tera.
General comments on the metagame:
- Mega Ray is surprisingly 'ok'? I really hope it doesn't get the boot, it's part of why the tier is as fun as it is. A few things that make it manageable imo are:
1. Being able to run multiple arceus: fairyceus and foul play darkceus are pretty good mray checks, especially with tera steel or rock. Running one fast arceus and one slow arceus to mix things up to account for both sd and dd is an option too which helps a lot imo.
2. Twave and mray itself being everywhere. Mray can't switch into much safely because instead of spamming toxic like they do in natdex, it seems the move is to spam twave which is significantly worse for offensive teams. Its own prevalence ironically means every team has the ability to revenge kill it with itself after it is chipped, and you also probably have to run jolly to win espeed ties too
3. Tera is a mixed bag, tera normal mray is imo the best because do you really need more power on dragon ascent lol? A sudden tera ghost or steel is a pretty big issue for its prospects of sweeping given its relative frailty
- Ho-oh seems mid without toxic, lefties pdon comes in pretty easily which is an issue for obvious reasons
- Tspikes is really good but eternatus itself doesn't do much beyond that while not checking much besides Kyogre who twaves it anyway
- Scale shot koraidon still good on HO with tera ghost, wouldn't use scarf though, way too many immunities and resists to be locked into one move
- Best non-ray mega is mega diancie imo, insane HO lead
- I think mega blastoise is pretty good and underused too due to tera and white herb
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To add salt to injury:
pirouette goes back to 
base form in battle if coded in. Same with 
terapagos stellar and some other mons I forgot about. You can check it out in the first post of this thread for more info. ^^
Iirc. From the OM room one time, it was due to different coding in games. When hacked in SwSh,
cramorant will gain it's pikachu or arrokuda form depending on the code. While in SV, it'll immediately revert back. Same with goes with other mons notably meloetta-pirouette and 
mimikyu-busted
Okay I've been playing a lot and definitely have some thoughts.
The best mon in the meta and it's not particularly close. Leftovers improves its already stellar longevity to the point of absurdity. It's among the best answers to many annoying threats (Primal Kyogre, Zacian-C, Ho-Oh, Arceus-Fairy, Eternatus, Arceus-Steel) and has immense set versatility and utility. I think best set currently is the standard specially defensive set: something along the lines of maximum Special Defense and HP with Precipice Blades, Stone Edge, Will-O-Wisp, and Stealth Rock or Spikes—though it has a lot of variety when it comes to moves with options like Rock Tomb, Dragon Claw, Lava Plume, Overheat, Protect, or Smack Down. I don't think all-out offensive sets are too great with the loss of Rock Polish in SV (hallelujah, I definitely think it could get banned if it still had Rock Polish), though I still like mixed Swords Dance with Eruption which is an absolutely horrific wallbreaker. Bulky SD sets are also exceptional with Precipice Blades, Rock Tomb / Stone Edge / Dragon Claw, Swords Dance, Stealth Rock / Spikes / Heat Crash / whatever. Obscenely good mon that defines the meta and really doesn't have any reason to be dropped.
My personal pick for the #2 mon after Primal Groudon. Now that Miraidon is banned, Mega Rayquaza has stepped up as the premier offensive threat. While I've seen a lot of people express the sentiment that it'll be too much, I don't really agree as it doesn't lack competent counterplay with how the meta is shaping up. The biggest complaint I have against Ray is that it's a really potent Tera abuser, but I'll talk about Tera later. Choice Band, Dragon Dance, and mixed sets all seem very solid though all with their own issues. As for answers, the loss of V-create means that Dragon Dance sets are unable to OHKO physically defensive Necrozma-DM and it's pretty walled by Skarmory unless it's a mixed set, and physically defensive Arceus formes are solid answers as always. Ray's main issue is that it struggles to find opportunities against the types of structures that people are using now, with Will-O-Wisp Primal Groudon, defensive Arceus formes, Extreme Killer Arceus, and Zacian-C all being prevalent, not to mention Tera Steel Giratina-O being incredibly consistent into Ray overall.
Another very splashable mon due to being one of the only relevant hazard removal options. It checks Primal Groudon quite well and is bulky enough to take hits from most pokemon, and its synergy with Tera Steel and Levitate is incredibly potent, especially when it comes to answering Ray. I've personally been running Calm Mind, STABs, and Defog the most as it's the best at consistently removing hazards against Primal Groudon and can be quite the threat in its own right. Stuff like status move + Hex could also be good but it's much worse at handle Primal Groudon which is why I've not really used it too much, could be good with other Don answers like Groundceus or defensive Primal Kyogre.
Speaking of, this mon is crazy. Much like Primal Groudon, gaining Leftovers is absolutely insane for its longevity, and it really doesn't have any great checks besides Primal Groudon which gets worn down by Ice Beams scarily fast, not to mention having to flee if Kyogre is the one coming in on it. I think offensive sets aren't the play as defensive sets are genuinely heinous to deal with due to how fast they snowball with CM boosts. I prefer Rest to the Protect sets that Chessking likes as it's just so good being able to fully heal and absorb status, especially with how many free turns Ogre can get with its bulk.
One of the main things I've really liked so far. I've tried both offensive and support sets and they both felt very solid. The weakness to Earthquake means that you can't tank +1 Mega Rayquaza so you can run max Speed without any qualms. Flying-type resistances are pretty much necessary to not get rolled over by CB M-Ray, and Steelceus is a very splashable fit for the roll. Being good into Diancie is nice for ladder too and Steel-type resistances are just good to have.
:sv/-arceus-dark:
The other Arceus forme that fufills a unique roll in the meta that I've loved using. STAB Foul Play is sooo good at keeping physical attackers in check, even resisted ones with how strong many of the threats in the meta are (one of my favorite moments on ladder was clicking Foul Play into a Mega Blaziken as it clicked SD and outright OHKOing.) It can either run max defense to take +1 Dragon Ascent, or a faster spread—I ran enough Speed to outrun Adamant M-Ray for example—and be effective either way. The move freedom that is granted by Foul Play working well enough against physical attackers to not run Will-O-Wisp means that you can run a variety of different moves in your open slots. Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Dragon Tail / Roar, Stealth Rock, Sludge Bomb / Poison Jab, Healing Wish, Perish Song; all of these are options that are worth considering and can open up new possibilities when teambuilding. I personally ran Healing Wish and absolutely loved it; it gave me so much more flexibility when it came to answering threats because I could heal up my Primal Groudon or Giratina-O, or give a weakened / crippled M-Ray another chance to wallbreak, revenge kill something, or even win outright with Dragon Dance. Also, Taunt Calm Mind sets are incredibly annoying especially with Tera.
The premier Arceus forme when it comes to purely defensive sets. Even though it is hurt by the loss of Toxic leaving it often struggling to make progress against Primal Groudon and especially Ho-Oh, the defensive qualities really are so good that it doesn't matter. Being able to OHKO Mega Rayquaza with minor chip (or a Dragon Ascent drop) is something that only Fairyceus, Dragonceus, and Iceceus can do, and Fairyceus is notably better than both of the others (though Dragonceus is still respectable imo.) An immunity to Dragon-type moves is also very useful, in addition to the Dark- and Fighting-type resistances that allow it to easily handle Gira-O, non-CM Darkceus, and Tyranitar, while obviously being the best answer to Koraidon available. Offensive CM sets can also be incredibly scary into teams without Ho-Oh, Eternatus, Chansey, or Shuca NDM.
Extreme Killer looks to be very good in my opinion, and I'm surprised I haven't seen too much of it. Being able to revenge kill M-Ray decently is very nice, though if you're a faster set you're at risk of getting killed by Tera Normal Extreme Speed after a bit of chip damage. The lack of Marshadow in this metagame is very good when it comes to using E-Killer as a win condition as there's no faster Ghost-type that can blow it up without a Chople Berry.
That's a lot of Arceus formes in a row, so let's talk about something else for a change. Zacian-C is very solid and quite splashable, especially on offensive teams. I disagree with Chessking putting it in his top 5 but it's undeniably good. Primal Groudon can be very annoying for Zac-C to break without expending its Tera (and even then it's pretty difficult.) I've seen Tera Ground and it's pretty scary but I think Tera Fighting is better for its ability to hit P-Don hard without Teraing, in addition to OHKOing Extreme Killer and hitting Tera Steel Giratina-O. My earlier statement about needing a Dragon Ascent resist holds true even for offense, and Zacian-C is often the best mon for the job, with its speed tier also allowing it to keep a few other notable threats like MMY and Koraidon in line for its team, with its typing being especially helpful for pivoting into both of those attackers.
Ho-Oh is a massive pain. It's bulk, typing, and Regenerator allow it to stuff mons unlike anything else in the meta, and those traits also allow it to soft-check an absolutely massive number of pokemon. Both Primals and Mega Rayquaza can make life difficult for Ho-Oh but it's more than capable of getting around them to harass a number of top options like Fairyceus, Steelceus, Groundceus, Giratina-O, Zacian-C, Koraidon, and Darkceus.
I've been pleasantly surprised by Diancie's performance as a lead, with a lot of different options that all work in tandem to enable the dangerous offensive teams it's found on. My personal favorite set is Moonblast, Earth Power, Rock Tomb, and either Spikes or Stealth Rock depending on the rest of the team. Outside of the lead slot though... Diancie has been disappointing to say the least. It's really just not strong enough or fast enough or bulky enough.
Easily the best supportceus when it comes to answer Primal Groudon, and boy is that a big deal. The resistance to Stealth Rock is also quite notable as you don't have to worry about dying to a +1 Dragon Ascent high roll after rocks. Unlike Fairyceus, Groundceus can't OHKO -1 Ray with Ice Beam without it taking Stealth Rock damage, which is quite annoying, but the incredible Primal Groudon matchup, as well as being good into Zac-C definitely means that it's worth running on some builds. Offensive Calm Mind sets are also absolutely ridiculous to deal with if the opponent doesn't have Ho-Oh, Primal Kyogre, or Tera Steel Giratina-O. I haven't tried Dragon Dance yet but it seems like it struggles greatly against a lot of common options like Giratina-O or Will-O-Wisp Arceus formes. Overall one of my personal favorite mons to use, even if it's not outright the best.
Maybe the best purely offensive Calm Mind Arceus forme. The perfect coverage of Judgment and Aura Sphere / Focus Blast makes it very difficult to answer consistently, especially with its hard-hitting Judgments being quite strong even into Ho-Oh's high bulk. Similar to Extreme Killer, it benefits greatly from the lack of Marshadow in the metagame to comfortably revenge kill it, and both the immunity to Extreme Speed and Arceus' high natural bulk make it difficult to revenge killer.
One of the coolest mons IMO. Just like Darkceus, STAB Foul Play is great at chunking pretty much all physical attackers, and between its frankly massive bulk, good typing, and potent movepool it has a lot of use, especially as one of the best answers to Mega Rayquaza. Knock Off and Stealth Rock makes it a solid progress-maker, and it can spread Paralysis with Thunder Wave. It's so bulky that it doesn't even need to have Shuca in order to take a boosted Earthquake from M-Ray so it can experiment with other options like Leftovers or Chesto Berry. Overall just a really cool mon.
In case you haven't figured it out by now, Arceus formes are really fucking good; pretty much everyone should be using them a lot more than they are at the moment. Overall I like the current state of the meta, as I think both bulky offense and balance teams are very good
The best mon in the meta and it's not particularly close. Leftovers improves its already stellar longevity to the point of absurdity. It's among the best answers to many annoying threats (Primal Kyogre, Zacian-C, Ho-Oh, Arceus-Fairy, Eternatus, Arceus-Steel) and has immense set versatility and utility. I think best set currently is the standard specially defensive set: something along the lines of maximum Special Defense and HP with Precipice Blades, Stone Edge, Will-O-Wisp, and Stealth Rock or Spikes—though it has a lot of variety when it comes to moves with options like Rock Tomb, Dragon Claw, Lava Plume, Overheat, Protect, or Smack Down. I don't think all-out offensive sets are too great with the loss of Rock Polish in SV (hallelujah, I definitely think it could get banned if it still had Rock Polish), though I still like mixed Swords Dance with Eruption which is an absolutely horrific wallbreaker. Bulky SD sets are also exceptional with Precipice Blades, Rock Tomb / Stone Edge / Dragon Claw, Swords Dance, Stealth Rock / Spikes / Heat Crash / whatever. Obscenely good mon that defines the meta and really doesn't have any reason to be dropped.
My personal pick for the #2 mon after Primal Groudon. Now that Miraidon is banned, Mega Rayquaza has stepped up as the premier offensive threat. While I've seen a lot of people express the sentiment that it'll be too much, I don't really agree as it doesn't lack competent counterplay with how the meta is shaping up. The biggest complaint I have against Ray is that it's a really potent Tera abuser, but I'll talk about Tera later. Choice Band, Dragon Dance, and mixed sets all seem very solid though all with their own issues. As for answers, the loss of V-create means that Dragon Dance sets are unable to OHKO physically defensive Necrozma-DM and it's pretty walled by Skarmory unless it's a mixed set, and physically defensive Arceus formes are solid answers as always. Ray's main issue is that it struggles to find opportunities against the types of structures that people are using now, with Will-O-Wisp Primal Groudon, defensive Arceus formes, Extreme Killer Arceus, and Zacian-C all being prevalent, not to mention Tera Steel Giratina-O being incredibly consistent into Ray overall.
Another very splashable mon due to being one of the only relevant hazard removal options. It checks Primal Groudon quite well and is bulky enough to take hits from most pokemon, and its synergy with Tera Steel and Levitate is incredibly potent, especially when it comes to answering Ray. I've personally been running Calm Mind, STABs, and Defog the most as it's the best at consistently removing hazards against Primal Groudon and can be quite the threat in its own right. Stuff like status move + Hex could also be good but it's much worse at handle Primal Groudon which is why I've not really used it too much, could be good with other Don answers like Groundceus or defensive Primal Kyogre.
Speaking of, this mon is crazy. Much like Primal Groudon, gaining Leftovers is absolutely insane for its longevity, and it really doesn't have any great checks besides Primal Groudon which gets worn down by Ice Beams scarily fast, not to mention having to flee if Kyogre is the one coming in on it. I think offensive sets aren't the play as defensive sets are genuinely heinous to deal with due to how fast they snowball with CM boosts. I prefer Rest to the Protect sets that Chessking likes as it's just so good being able to fully heal and absorb status, especially with how many free turns Ogre can get with its bulk.
One of the main things I've really liked so far. I've tried both offensive and support sets and they both felt very solid. The weakness to Earthquake means that you can't tank +1 Mega Rayquaza so you can run max Speed without any qualms. Flying-type resistances are pretty much necessary to not get rolled over by CB M-Ray, and Steelceus is a very splashable fit for the roll. Being good into Diancie is nice for ladder too and Steel-type resistances are just good to have.
:sv/-arceus-dark:
The other Arceus forme that fufills a unique roll in the meta that I've loved using. STAB Foul Play is sooo good at keeping physical attackers in check, even resisted ones with how strong many of the threats in the meta are (one of my favorite moments on ladder was clicking Foul Play into a Mega Blaziken as it clicked SD and outright OHKOing.) It can either run max defense to take +1 Dragon Ascent, or a faster spread—I ran enough Speed to outrun Adamant M-Ray for example—and be effective either way. The move freedom that is granted by Foul Play working well enough against physical attackers to not run Will-O-Wisp means that you can run a variety of different moves in your open slots. Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Dragon Tail / Roar, Stealth Rock, Sludge Bomb / Poison Jab, Healing Wish, Perish Song; all of these are options that are worth considering and can open up new possibilities when teambuilding. I personally ran Healing Wish and absolutely loved it; it gave me so much more flexibility when it came to answering threats because I could heal up my Primal Groudon or Giratina-O, or give a weakened / crippled M-Ray another chance to wallbreak, revenge kill something, or even win outright with Dragon Dance. Also, Taunt Calm Mind sets are incredibly annoying especially with Tera.
The premier Arceus forme when it comes to purely defensive sets. Even though it is hurt by the loss of Toxic leaving it often struggling to make progress against Primal Groudon and especially Ho-Oh, the defensive qualities really are so good that it doesn't matter. Being able to OHKO Mega Rayquaza with minor chip (or a Dragon Ascent drop) is something that only Fairyceus, Dragonceus, and Iceceus can do, and Fairyceus is notably better than both of the others (though Dragonceus is still respectable imo.) An immunity to Dragon-type moves is also very useful, in addition to the Dark- and Fighting-type resistances that allow it to easily handle Gira-O, non-CM Darkceus, and Tyranitar, while obviously being the best answer to Koraidon available. Offensive CM sets can also be incredibly scary into teams without Ho-Oh, Eternatus, Chansey, or Shuca NDM.
Extreme Killer looks to be very good in my opinion, and I'm surprised I haven't seen too much of it. Being able to revenge kill M-Ray decently is very nice, though if you're a faster set you're at risk of getting killed by Tera Normal Extreme Speed after a bit of chip damage. The lack of Marshadow in this metagame is very good when it comes to using E-Killer as a win condition as there's no faster Ghost-type that can blow it up without a Chople Berry.
That's a lot of Arceus formes in a row, so let's talk about something else for a change. Zacian-C is very solid and quite splashable, especially on offensive teams. I disagree with Chessking putting it in his top 5 but it's undeniably good. Primal Groudon can be very annoying for Zac-C to break without expending its Tera (and even then it's pretty difficult.) I've seen Tera Ground and it's pretty scary but I think Tera Fighting is better for its ability to hit P-Don hard without Teraing, in addition to OHKOing Extreme Killer and hitting Tera Steel Giratina-O. My earlier statement about needing a Dragon Ascent resist holds true even for offense, and Zacian-C is often the best mon for the job, with its speed tier also allowing it to keep a few other notable threats like MMY and Koraidon in line for its team, with its typing being especially helpful for pivoting into both of those attackers.
Ho-Oh is a massive pain. It's bulk, typing, and Regenerator allow it to stuff mons unlike anything else in the meta, and those traits also allow it to soft-check an absolutely massive number of pokemon. Both Primals and Mega Rayquaza can make life difficult for Ho-Oh but it's more than capable of getting around them to harass a number of top options like Fairyceus, Steelceus, Groundceus, Giratina-O, Zacian-C, Koraidon, and Darkceus.
I've been pleasantly surprised by Diancie's performance as a lead, with a lot of different options that all work in tandem to enable the dangerous offensive teams it's found on. My personal favorite set is Moonblast, Earth Power, Rock Tomb, and either Spikes or Stealth Rock depending on the rest of the team. Outside of the lead slot though... Diancie has been disappointing to say the least. It's really just not strong enough or fast enough or bulky enough.
Easily the best supportceus when it comes to answer Primal Groudon, and boy is that a big deal. The resistance to Stealth Rock is also quite notable as you don't have to worry about dying to a +1 Dragon Ascent high roll after rocks. Unlike Fairyceus, Groundceus can't OHKO -1 Ray with Ice Beam without it taking Stealth Rock damage, which is quite annoying, but the incredible Primal Groudon matchup, as well as being good into Zac-C definitely means that it's worth running on some builds. Offensive Calm Mind sets are also absolutely ridiculous to deal with if the opponent doesn't have Ho-Oh, Primal Kyogre, or Tera Steel Giratina-O. I haven't tried Dragon Dance yet but it seems like it struggles greatly against a lot of common options like Giratina-O or Will-O-Wisp Arceus formes. Overall one of my personal favorite mons to use, even if it's not outright the best.
Maybe the best purely offensive Calm Mind Arceus forme. The perfect coverage of Judgment and Aura Sphere / Focus Blast makes it very difficult to answer consistently, especially with its hard-hitting Judgments being quite strong even into Ho-Oh's high bulk. Similar to Extreme Killer, it benefits greatly from the lack of Marshadow in the metagame to comfortably revenge kill it, and both the immunity to Extreme Speed and Arceus' high natural bulk make it difficult to revenge killer.
One of the coolest mons IMO. Just like Darkceus, STAB Foul Play is great at chunking pretty much all physical attackers, and between its frankly massive bulk, good typing, and potent movepool it has a lot of use, especially as one of the best answers to Mega Rayquaza. Knock Off and Stealth Rock makes it a solid progress-maker, and it can spread Paralysis with Thunder Wave. It's so bulky that it doesn't even need to have Shuca in order to take a boosted Earthquake from M-Ray so it can experiment with other options like Leftovers or Chesto Berry. Overall just a really cool mon.
In case you haven't figured it out by now, Arceus formes are really fucking good; pretty much everyone should be using them a lot more than they are at the moment. Overall I like the current state of the meta, as I think both bulky offense and balance teams are very good
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i really like scarf mray. it's very strong and fast. i like tera flying. delta stream means no weaknessesses. also it boosts drascent. yippee!
pdon is fat and tanks stuff. it beats mega altaria. it can run overheat for mixed attacking. i run relaxed nature with helmet. you get to passively kill chipped mray. hooray!
fairyceus is pretty solid. judgement/rocks/wisp/recover is a good set. it can wisp mray and is bulky with max HP. yuh
i like the meta. hasta luego :3
pdon is fat and tanks stuff. it beats mega altaria. it can run overheat for mixed attacking. i run relaxed nature with helmet. you get to passively kill chipped mray. hooray!
fairyceus is pretty solid. judgement/rocks/wisp/recover is a good set. it can wisp mray and is bulky with max HP. yuh
i like the meta. hasta luego :3
Mega LatIas
terA Rock RockY Helmet
Beat M-quaza. If not choice band, it dOn't do anything. If it banded, it neEd outrage. All M-quaza banded but not banneD. why it not banned?
Stealth Rock swords dance Groudon is good paRtner. They CheCk each other.
terA Rock RockY Helmet
Beat M-quaza. If not choice band, it dOn't do anything. If it banded, it neEd outrage. All M-quaza banded but not banneD. why it not banned?
Stealth Rock swords dance Groudon is good paRtner. They CheCk each other.
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Uhh... why did this happen? (Yes, it is holding rusted sword, I know about the reversion thing)
behemoth blade isnt a "natural" move use iron head it turns into behemoth bash when used on zacian crowned
Personally I'm a big fan of Power Herb Meteor Beam Mega Diancie in this meta. Nothing, including the three Hoenn Legends (so long as Kyogre isn't scarfed), is very comfortable switching into a modest Meteor Beam other than legendary steels of which I'm only seeing mostly Zacian's which is forced to give up their Intrepid boost. If your opponent has a dedicated lead then Diancie can punish it and if they don't you can leverage Diancie late game to clean up if you can position her well. Very nice Tera user as well.
In a similar lieu i can think physical Primal Kyogre is really neat as well. A lot of presumed Kyogre checks can only deal with it soundly as a special attacker and fall flat vs it's physical set. It's main use of trolling Primal Groudon still works as good as ever as well.
In a similar lieu i can think physical Primal Kyogre is really neat as well. A lot of presumed Kyogre checks can only deal with it soundly as a special attacker and fall flat vs it's physical set. It's main use of trolling Primal Groudon still works as good as ever as well.
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It's because certain formes like zama-c, zacian-c, palafin-h, tera ogerpon, terapagos (non-base formes), and a few more automatically revert to their original formes in game if they aren't holding their item/haven't achieved a certain condition to allow them to be in a non-base forme.
Oh ok thats too bad then. Thank you for the quick response!
Altaria-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Body Slam
This set has saved my ass so many times. It’s typing is incredible with all the Fire and Water and dragon types running around and it’s basically the only other defogger besides giratina and I suppose corv. Surprised I’m not seeing this mon more tbh.
Side note: mega banette is really unfun to play against. It’s just 50/50s so intense it makes kingambit in ou seem balanced. The only thing I’ve been able to use to deal with it is taunt arceus dark
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Body Slam
This set has saved my ass so many times. It’s typing is incredible with all the Fire and Water and dragon types running around and it’s basically the only other defogger besides giratina and I suppose corv. Surprised I’m not seeing this mon more tbh.
Side note: mega banette is really unfun to play against. It’s just 50/50s so intense it makes kingambit in ou seem balanced. The only thing I’ve been able to use to deal with it is taunt arceus dark
草 (Ogerpon-Wellspring) (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 4 Def / 100 SpD / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Whip
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
I was in the lab trynna figure out a way to reliably switch into pogre and thought immunity was the best way to deal with water moves and wellspring is the only one with u turn lol. U live 3 modest thunders(Pogre would then have to make doubles and hard switches to not have pdon/grounceus come in for free)from pogre and ohko both mega blastoise and pogre with power whip. Low kick is used for steel/tera steel pogre mons as ivy cudgel doesn’t really hit anything here lol. 96 speed is for being able to u turn on all non +speed nature base 90 speed mons. Throughout all my accounts I’m 40-4 (GreenASide, Lehackeron James, Stfuyourhonor, BugcatcherZiek, and Crapmontesting) with wellspring so far due to occasional blunders and rng i got some more sauce in the works
https://pokepast.es/9cedaa1eae9d3338
The team I was using if anyone wants to try it. Other options are pdon over groundceus to make pogre completely fodder but I like the speed natural bulk and built in improof that comes with all judgment Arceus(especially ghost) uhh etern clicks button and gets kill yea
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 4 Def / 100 SpD / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Whip
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
I was in the lab trynna figure out a way to reliably switch into pogre and thought immunity was the best way to deal with water moves and wellspring is the only one with u turn lol. U live 3 modest thunders(Pogre would then have to make doubles and hard switches to not have pdon/grounceus come in for free)from pogre and ohko both mega blastoise and pogre with power whip. Low kick is used for steel/tera steel pogre mons as ivy cudgel doesn’t really hit anything here lol. 96 speed is for being able to u turn on all non +speed nature base 90 speed mons. Throughout all my accounts I’m 40-4 (GreenASide, Lehackeron James, Stfuyourhonor, BugcatcherZiek, and Crapmontesting) with wellspring so far due to occasional blunders and rng i got some more sauce in the works
https://pokepast.es/9cedaa1eae9d3338
The team I was using if anyone wants to try it. Other options are pdon over groundceus to make pogre completely fodder but I like the speed natural bulk and built in improof that comes with all judgment Arceus(especially ghost) uhh etern clicks button and gets kill yea
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What are the HP evs on diancie for? Doesn't focus sash guarantee 2HKOs anyway?
Idk if this counts as a one liner but just in case:
Douglas (Dugtrio) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Endeavor
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
Underrated imo and can usually get 1-2 KOs every game if u play it right