Former XY/Early ORAS UU Tiering System / Voting Records

kokoloko · Mar 21, 2014

*ATTENTION: Please keep in mind that the information contained in this thread is mostly for record keeping. Starting when UU Beta is released for Gen 7, a lot of our actions will mirror the policies indicated in this thread. This thread will help you learn about UU's history in early Gen 6 and the reasoning for why things ended up the way they did during Kokoloko's administration as Tier Leader. This means that the tiering procedures are not up-to-date. Please keep that in mind before contacting staff/council regarding this thread.*

*If you have a question regarding tiering, please address them to a staff/council member listed here*

Hello, this thread will contain four things:

1. A list of users who are part of the UU Council and a list of former Council members.
2. How the XY UU tiering system works, because its quite different from what you're used to.
3. A list of what is currently banned from UU.
4. A record of which Pokemon have been tested back into the tier and the results of each vote.

The UU Council (not up to date - current council in Resource Thread)

Sam (Leader)
Hikari (Leader)
IronBullet
Meru
Bouffalant
dodmen
King UU
Hogg

kokoloko · Mar 21, 2014

The Tiering System (during Kokoloko's Administration as Tier Leader [until early 2015])

As you probably noticed, there are a lot of BL Pokemon for a tier that is still in its infancy. There's a reason for this. This generation, I decided to do something different. Instead of banning one broken thing at a time, we're banning everything that is potentially broken before we even start, then reintroducing them into the metagame as suspects, one at a time, in isolation. Each time we'll keep the suspect in the tier only for as long as we need to in order to determine whether or not it deserves to stay or go back to BL. The council will convene on IRC and over forum PM, come to a decision, and the verdict will be executed.

Because this system's ultimate goal is to never have a broken Pokemon, the ratio of UU votes needed to ban a Pokemon during the Beta stage was 1/2. In order to reintroduce a Pokemon into the tier a minimum of 2/3 (which, at the moment, means 8/12) "UU" votes is needed. This is to limit the amount of ambiguity in a Pokemon's placement and keep in line with the goal of the system.

Suspects will be reintroduced into the tier from least-likely-to-be-broken to most likely, as determined by the council and I.

FAQ

Q: On what basis does a Pokemon deserve a suspect test?
A: On the basis that they were deemed potentially broken by the council and I.

Q: How long does each suspect test take?
A: As long as we need it to. In other words, we keep the test going until enough council members have made up their minds on how to vote. This can take anywhere from a couple days to a couple weeks.

Q: Why does Underused use a council system instead of a public voting system?
A: Because the public voting system takes far too long to produce results, and often they aren't good ones due to people voting in their best interest rather than the best interests of the metagame.

Q: Why and how were the current members chosen?
A: They were pretty much hand-picked by me for being having the following qualities: 1. a high level of skill in the game and 2. a clear head when it comes to thinking about tiering.

Q: Is there be an opportunity for the public to get involved with the process?
A: Not at the moment. When we finish retesting the initial banlist into UU, I might consider it, but right now, time is of the essence.

Q: How can I get onto council?
A: You have to impress the current council members and I enough that we'd want you to join us. This can be done by being good at the game and showing that you can think with a clear head when it comes to suspects.

Q: Is retesting each BL Pokemon individually be best way to re-introduce them to the game? Why not in small groups?
A: By reintroducing each subject into UU individually we're making sure that the metagame, or rather, the stuff we know will be in the metagame, can handle it. Testing in small groups could easily lead to a case of broken-checking-broken, which we want to avoid completely. However if, once we test every suspect once, we still feel as if the metgaame could improve by reintroducing more BLs into it, then I'm open to doing group testing.

Q: Are we aiming for a short or long BL list?
A: Neither; the size of BL is irrelevant in this system because we are using it as a waiting list as well as a ban list.

Q: Will you or the council be disclosing information regarding other things that didn't get banned but were discussed?
A: If you care, just ask us. We're not hiding it, lol.

Q: Are there things in BL that might not get re-tested?
A: Yes. Swagger will not be getting a re-test. Drizzle might not either, we'll see about that one.

Q: Why are moves being considered for banning when they have never been before?
A: Because there's no reason they shouldn't be. The only reason people cite as to why we shouldn't is: "because we have never done it before" and that just isn't acceptable. If a move is worthy of a ban, it should be banned.

Q: Why is UU being handled differently than OU, and possibly all of the other tiers? Wouldn't a uniform method of testing suspects be better?
A: Because I feel as if the standard method is flawed in that it produces bad results due to over-reliance on the general playerbase. Also, its extremely slow. Compared to OU, UU is already done tiering and now we're just double checking our results.

Q: Some people feel as if the tier is bad because of the rapidly changing banlist, how can you justify that?
A: People are forgetting that anything that happened before I posted Stage 1 was actually not "UU"; it was "UU Beta". The banhappy stage is over. Now we're reintroducing things one by one into the meta to see if we can leave them in. So the metagame is literally stable at all times, save for that one suspect. If you still don't like it, then just wait until we're done.

More coming soon.

kokoloko · Mar 21, 2014

Serperior

kokoloko · Mar 21, 2014

The following posts will be a record of the tests, who voted in them, and the results.

Thundurus-T | BL

My reason for believing Thundurus-T belongs in BL is that the combination of its sheer attacking power and versatility. Between its ability to use any of Choice Scarf, Expert Belt, Nasty Plot, Agility, a double boosting set, or even a mixed set, and its nice coverage in the form of Hidden Power, Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Knock Off, and Superpower, you'll never be able to send out something that is truly safe, and revenge killing it isn't easy between its tendency to use Agility and UU's lack of priority.

When the original ban was made there were more checks, now there are not. It just has too much power and versatility to be healthy for the tier.

Pretty much, it's impossible to counter Thundurus-T. Even if you assume it's its most basic Nasty Plot, Agility set, even three special walls can't stop it. Therefore, you're forced to run obscure Pokemon that might not even counter the specified set.

While there are a few solid checks for any given set, many of them are easily removed by a certain move or modification of a standard set. It's very easy for a Thundurus-T to sweep or break huge holes in a team because of its incredible offensive presence that forces many Pokemon out. When facing Thundurus-T, you often have to make really risky decisions because it has a lot of versatility, and one poor move could lead to it sweeping or killing a vital Pokemon.

Thundurus-T is Kinda good. It has high Special Attack. It's very versatile. It sets up rather easily and absolutely obliterates teams with relative ease. The best counters to it depend on what moveset its running. My god, get this thing out of UU.

Thundurus-T was a really strong Pokemon when it was first banned, with great offensive stats, an amazing typing for a sweeper which renders it immune to paralysis, and a big array of moves (Sludge Wave, Grass Knot, Knock Off, etc) to make it really hard to deal with all variants. Now it's lost two of its best checks in Chansey and Latias (as well as having less strong priority users to stop it from sweeping), meaning that its bulky Double Dance set is more destructive now than ever, being able to beat offensive and defensive teams with either setup move—and easily setting up both sometimes. While it does have good checks in Kyurem, Careful Hippo with Stone Edge, Rotom-F I guess?, bulky offensive Rotom-H (defensive can't KO after the SpA drop), Trace Gardevoir and Porygon2, they aren't consistent enough and stand to lose to other sets due to the aforementioned array of moves, possibly opening the path for another mon to sweep at the very least.

Tl;dr: Thundurus-T isn't broken because you can also use it. Deal with it.

Real tl;dr: Thundurus-T was possibly broken last time it was around, and now it's easily worse for the metagame than before. Go away pls.

i don't think anything counters this as long as it has the right moves and anything faster loses to agility except electric-types i guess.

thund was broken when it was here before, and now with shit like latias gone it has even less counters. it's powerful as fuck, sporting a 145 spa and np, leaving it nearly impossible to wall. not to mention, it can run agility to just fuck up offense, and double dance to combine the two. sweeping isn't its only option though, as that power combined with it's coverage can make for a very effective scarfer and an incredible wallbreaker. not much walls / beats the boosting sets, and what does can usually be taken care of with appropriate coverage moves.

NP thundurus just kills a ridiculous amount if it boosts (man even if it doesn't it can nuke stuff, 145 with LO is p. insane) and when you're teambuilding you can't even just go "okay I'll slap a scarfer on and I'm not getting swept" because that doesn't work LOL agility gg. You can't reliably run stuff like Gastrodon/Quag to counter it because it can easily run grass knot. Between tbolt / gk / hp ice / focus blast (honestly though, you don't even need focus blast so much, except for maybe some niche stuff like p-2 and jolteon, it's just icing on the cake), it has extremely few counters. So unless you're running stuff like raikou on every team, chances are you're going to have Thundurus issues...

Nasty plot/agility is just too immense with its ridiclous attack stats, and its diverse movepool lets it bypass alot of 'would-be checks' (i.e. umbreon, quaggy, gastrodon). It really makes teambuilding too centric.

Abstained due to not getting a chance to play with the suspect enough.

kokoloko · Mar 21, 2014

Houndoominite | UU

While Mega Houndoom possesses all the qualities that make a Pokemon really great (excellent speed and firepower, good STAB combination, boosting moves, and versatility), it does have sufficient shortcomings that prevent it from being BL material. To name a few, there's the fact that even once it sets up, it falls just short of OHKOing a slew of bulky Pokemon (+2 Fire Blast on SpD Hippowdon: 80 - 94.2% | +2 Fire Blast on 252/0 Suicune: 60.8 - 71.5%). There's also the issue with Speed, in that it is either outsped or ties with a lot of offensive Pokemon in the tier (Raikou, Starmie, Tornadus-T, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, etc), giving offensive teams reliable checks to it too, and this isn't even accounting for common Scarf users.

Houndoom (Mega) is one of those Pokemon that possesses insane potential to sweep teams in theory, but that doesn't usually work out in practice. I don't want to say that it's impossible to setup, but it's very difficult without a few risky predictions. Add in a Stealth Rocks weakness and it's much more manageable. All that being said, it is bulky enough to setup on Mew, Umbreon, and can tank a Moonblast from Florges. Being able to setup and sweep a majority of special walls in the metagame will permanently make Houndoom one of the top threats in the metagame.

it's fast and strong but it's also easily revenge killed by offensive teams or countered by defensive ones. it's also vulnerable to hazards which makes it easily worn down throughout the match.

While Houndoominite makes Dog be the threat it should've always been due that that badass look, having many chances to set up a Nasty Plot with its decent bulk (especially with Wish support, which is easy to provide even w/o Chansey) to tank weaker SE moves, it lacks the devastating power to break mons such as Careful Hippowdon, Suicune—a bit more doubtful because Cune doesn't do much back—Mega Blaster, bulky Entei, or Snorlax even at +2, requiring a lot of support to sweep effectively. And even then, it's still prone to being revenge killed because, while its Speed tier is good, it's still beat by many mons and Scarfers, or at worst a 50/50. That isn't to say Houndoom isn't a big threat: its ability to set up on Specially Defensive walls like Umbreon or Mew, as well as not being countered by those nor Florges, turnst Dog into a huge threat to balance and defensive teams alike.

I just hope that the fact we took this decision in a metagame with Torn-T and Zygarde won't make Dog seem as less than what it really is, but we can always retest it in the future so I guess it's fine.

Tl;dr: I like Mega Houndoom, it's a good dog. Let's keep it around.

Dog is Pretty good. It certainly has the potential to sweep through teams with ease. However, with reliable checks, weakness to SR, and being easily revenge killed, sending the Dog to the pound is not too difficult. Dog is Kinda good, but not Too bad for the tier.

While it may be strong and fast, it is also decently frail and has many common weaknesses. Houndoom has pretty much one useful set-up move in Nasty Plot, which it can't get off /that/ safely, and even then fails to take out some of the main checks to dog.

Despite its nice speed, its still very weak without a boost or sun. It is also relatively frail and the SR weak doesn't help it much either. It gets worn down and lacks the firepower to stay in and cause immediate damage. It's easily checked by common mons on offensive teams, and even at +2 cant simply decimate its counters i.e. suicune.

Mega houndoom has good speed, good special attack, and solid coverage with it's stabs. But that's just it, it's just good. It doesn't have specs or lo to make that spa devastating, it's speed tier isn't enough to make it am unbeatable sweeper, and your know exactly what it's going to do: np up and try and do damage with fire blast + dark pulse. Not to mention, its weaks to every hazard and it doesnt have nearly the longevity needed to stay potent througout a match. Once it has a np under it's belt, it can do a lot of damage to unprepared teams, but most teams have a bulky water or a pokemon like hippowdon or snorlax that can take a hit and ko back, making setting up almost useless unless it has proper support.

Vulnerable to hazards, easily checked by faster mons/scarfers, frail, requires setup to be a threat, doesnt kill a bunch of shit in one hit even after setup, predictable as fuck

Everyone has already said everything that I would have so I'll just reiterate the main points. Usually it needs a NP to try and sweep teams since at +0 it's not that strong, there are enough pokemon in UU that can tank a hit from it after +2 and enough pokemon that can outspeed (scarfers and just naturally faster mons, although usually scarfers, since 115 speed is pretty awesome). Getting a NP up isn't impossible, but i wouldn't say it's too easy either. Dog is very good, but there are enough ways to manage it in UU imo so at this point i would say it isn't broken. It also helps that it's pretty much always going to be NP / FB / DP / X, the only thing in question is the last slot (hidden power / wisp / dbond / sludgebomb etc.) so you generally know what you're in for every time houndoom is on the field.

mega houndoom is difficult to setup safely because of very common weaknesses, but it really needs to setup to sweep as it has no item boost. defensive teams that have pokemon like umbreon that are setup bait will have a pokemon bulky enough to tank a hit, as m houndoom is not that strong even at +2. m houndoom is also very predictable: it sets up nasty plot and then has fire blast / dark pulse / one other relatively unimportant coverage move. overall m houndoom is very good but not overpowering.

More reiteration. Set predictability. SR weak makes it even easier to revenge than it already would be. Also it's a stallbreaker that isn't TOO hard for stall to stop. Those are generally good for the metagame in my opinion. Doggy is a good mon to have around.

kokoloko · Mar 28, 2014

Weavile | BL

For me, the biggest problem Weavile presents in UU is the huge strain it puts on teambuilding. The combination of its insane Speed, raw power with the ability o boost it via Swords Dance, and access to STAB priority, made it that it had such a limited amount of viable checks andcounters in the tier. While some things can "manage" it (Forretress, Extreme Speed Entei, most Intimidate users...), when every other team one builds tends to be Weavile weak, just because one didn't set out to specifically counter it, that kind of speaks for itself.

weavile certainly has its downfalls, most notably the shitty bulk that limits his switch in opportunities. however, the ridiculous speed and access to knock off and great all around coverage means that once he does get in (even on a revenge), something is going to faint or be crippled. i think that if it was left at great speed and coverage, his lack of bulk would prevent him from being overpowered. however, the addition of swords dance + a good priority move makes him a little too hard to deal with, in my opinion. a lot of common scarfers are flat out KOd by ice shard (especially with normal amounts of prior damage for the late game), and those who aren't are relegated to revenge killing roles due to the threat of knock off. i don't think weavile is as clearly overpowered as thund-t was, but weavile puts an inordinate amount of pressure on team building to stop it.

Faster than the vast majority of the tier, solid base attack, knock off, SD, good coverage, priority ice shard. That said, weavile does have some negative features like shitty bulk and relatively bad typing defensively. I was definitely more on the fence about weavile than I have been the last two suspects but in the end weavile is just a little too strong for the tier in terms of actually battling it as well as its influence on teambuilding.

Weavile is Pretty good. It's very fast, outpaces a lot of the tier. Very strong, especially, with Knock Off. Very solid revenge killer. Despite its poor typing, it's still really good. When its impact is compared to, say, Thundurus-T's, it's certainly less, but it's still up there. So much so, that it should be sent to the frogs (BL).

weavile is fast, powerful, and has nearly perfect coverage. knock off discourages a lot of walls from coming in and makes its "counters" much easier to wear down throughout the match. it gets way too many opportunities to wallbreak to sweep in a typical game

Weavile doesn't seem broken at first glance, but when it can trap, break, and sweep, there's not much Weavile can't do. Add on the fact that it is nearly impossible to counter Weavile without using obscure Pokemon in the metagame makes this a no-brainer. The only Pokemon who "counter" Weavile, that are used quite often in the metagame, don't have reliable forms of recovery.

Sky high speed and power, along with the coveted STAB Knock Off, make SD Weavile be extremely efficient at breaking enemy cores. Not only that, it also has impressive coverage, having limited counters. And those counters are very easy to wear down (Forretress) or are incredibly uncommon in the UU metagame (Poliwrath)

I debated about this a lot and could've gone either way, but I think weavile is really easy to abuse. Ice + Dark is amazing coverage in XY - the steel nerf siginficantly lowers the amount of weavile counters. I think that you canprepare for weavile but its effect on teambuilding (in terms of how it restricts you) is a factor that needs to be considered when voting on weavile's status. Weavile's 'true' counters are limited to a small amout of pokemon - (some which are very niche like poliwrath) but my issue is that weavile can wear down the ones that check weavile (forre etc.), mostly in part due to knock offs insane power and ability to rob these checks of lefties.

I mean, I could see a metagame with weavile in UU but I think Weavile is just unhealthy for the meta so that's why I'm voting BL.

For me, weavile has too may drawbacks that outweigh its notable advantages.
It is frail as shit, limiting the amount of times it can come in, and also its ability to use SD. Its significant speed and knock off are great advantages, however its not all that outrageously strong.

Weavile has a great STAB combination and being the fastest Knock Off user makes it deadly, although its frailty makes it hard to switch in and therefore needs support. The 4 attacks LO set seems the strongest while SD can be hard to deal with for defensive teams (since mons like Forry, Blaster, and Aggron are easily worn down without lefties), but unfortunately my experience against Weavile in general hasn't proved that because of poor use or not the best sets—I'll always say LO is better than CB on Weavile, since what's strongest about it is the coverage. So while that makes me lean to UU, I can't help but feel my experience isn't big enough to make a decision.

I haven't seen it enough on the ladder and only used it for a couple of test games on an alt, so I don't think I have enough info or opinion for it to vote BL or UU.

Didn't play enough with the suspect.

Removed himself from council until further notice.

Removed himself from council.

Became a nomad and was removed from council.

kokoloko · Apr 8, 2014

Klefki | BL

I'm voting BL because I am truly uncertain of Klefki's placement due to how incredibly varied the sets I've come across are. What I mean is that throughout the past couple of weeks, I've encountered quite a few move combinations which made me think "damn, if it was running x move over y move, I'd be totally fucked" (moves which were totally viable and usable in the given set, btw), but at the same time... I didn't. However, given the tiering structure which is designed to place uncertainty in BL, I have to go with BL (which sucks cause Klefki is an amazing Staraptor check :[).

I'm also not a fan of priority Thunder Wave at all--it gives people an out when they play carelessly, something which I don't believe is good for any meta in general.

While Klefki is very good at stacking Spikes and spamming Thunder Wave, I don't feel like Klefki is a Pokemon who performs the role well enough to make it broken. UU as a tier right now has a large pool of viable spinners and defog users, which makes the Spikes-stacking a much lesser problem, and Thunder Wave is a very loose threat, considering that a lot of Pokemon are not really crippled or are immune to the status. Thunder Wave acts mostly just a back-up for a potentially threatening sweeper, which I don't really see as a trait of "brokenness". The fact that Klefki has below average defenses and only Leftovers as recovery means that it doesn't act as a reliable counter to many Pokemon, and considering it's otherwise amazing support options are mitigated by the current metagame's trends (spinners and defoggers almost everywhere), Klefki doesn't pose as a big enough threat to stay in BL.

okay, going against the general consensus. my problem with klefki is that is puts the option of super fast suicide spikestacking into the tier, and does it far better than any other pokemon in the tier. it's like froslass was in UUs past. it's really fkin hard to stand up to these offensive teams when there are almost guaranteed 2 layers of spikes. the comparison to froslass in gen 5 is a little bit different obviously because defog now exists and klefki can't block its own spin, along with there actually being some decent spinners in xy. the point still stands though that with klefki existing it puts you at a ridiculous disadvantage if you don't carry a spinner or defogger. sure, there are other spikers in the tier, but none of them put up hazards with the ease that prankster allows. klefki is also moderately bulky and is not dead weight after his suicide spikes are down. a 1% klefki is still dangerous because priority t-wave (as seen in OU) is a one-time guaranteed stop to pretty much any sweeper in the tier.

tldr i think as a rule that having a good suicide spiker that will consistently net at least 2 layers is unhealthy for most any metagame, and even with good hazard removal in uu i think klefki, while not overtly broken, is better off bl.

ok, this decision was really hard, because I see Klefki as a mon with massive potential. the ability to provide instant support in the form of spikes/screens/trick/THUNDER WAVE with priority is just that good. add to that the fact that it has a really good typing with passable bulk and it has a lot of opportunities to come in and give awesome support. it really is a nuisance for hyper offensive teams; for this i would agree with limitless. however, in practice it is different. bulky offense/stall teams often have spinners, rendering klefki's spike work kinda useless, as well as the abundance of clerics present, which hinders twave's power. and as panamaxis said, klefki's has poor attacking power, so any strong attacker that doesn't care about twave will end its lifespan.

Priority Spikes and T-Wave are nice but are easily dealt with the presence of Defog (or the rare spin) and Heal Bell / Aromatherapy. It doesn't do much damage offensively. The priority stuff is kinda annoying, but without Swagger, it's certainly not as annoying as it was. Key ring can stay.

While Klefki does have an amazing support movepool, being able to carry Spikes, Screens, Thunder Wave and sporting one of the best abilities in the game, Prankster, it is a very one dimensional mon and heavily relies on the team match ups. Against Balance and Stall (where Heal Bellers and Defoggers are extremely prevalent), Klefki is almost dead-weight. Even vs Offense, ground types, Infiltrator mons, Taunters can all limit the impact that Klefki has. This coupled with it's horrifically low usage (almost unseen on the ladder) and sub-par offensive stats that makes me think that Klefki is not too broken for UU and deserves to stay. (At least until something broken about Klefki surfaces but that's a discussion for another day.)

Klefki had become one of the most annoying to face mons in OU, and this was mostly because of swagger. Now that swagger is banned though, Klefki is just a great support pokemon in UU with a bunch of nifty moves to abuse. With prankster thunder wave it can keep a lot of threatening mons in check that could otherwise sweep whole teams like mega-Houndoom and Aerodactyl. Priority spikes and screens might seem broken but its actually really not for the reasons FLCL stated, and considering there are no good defiant users that can punish defog users help this is even more. Its typing is great for resisting Honchkrows STABs, a mon that kinda shits on the tier at the moment.
I haven't actually tried that CM set yet, but I've faced it considering theres so much common stuff that can take it on like Hippowdon, Nidoqueen and a few fire types, I can't see this thing become a problem right now.

Klefki has hardly any offensive presence so if you don't care about t-wave, chances are you're gonna do pretty decently against it. UU has a lot of spinners now and they all do very well vs klefki, so it's not at all a guarantee that klefki can keep its spikes down, particularly when UUs spinners are generally pretty reliable at beating the ghosts (defoggers like mew and empoleon also work fine). Klefki is a good spiker and a nice pivot for some teams with its resistances, but priority spikes and twave isn't enough for me to call it broken as there are many pokemon that can work around this.

Klefki is usually going to run twave and spikes, and then the last 2 moves are usually a tossup between dual screens / play rough or dazzling gleam / switcheroo, so it's usually pretty easy to know what you're up against. Klefki is disruptive and a fairly good pokemon but I don't think it's broken.

klefki's biggest selling point is priority spikes and thunder wave and both are not that effective in the current metagame due to the presence of balance teams which almost always carry defog and heal bell. the calm mind set requires a lot of support in order to sweep and is far from broken.

So I'm largely making this judgement call on the idea of Klefki, rather than what I've actually seen in practice. From what I've personally seen in the metagame, people have just not been able to throw together the right combination of Klefki with other Pokemon. But just because a Pokemon isn't utilized correctly doesn't mean it's not broken. I can confidently say that I'm 90% sure some broken combination will emerge with Klefki. Whether that be through the Calm Mind set (which FLCL has used to success with), screen/spike/twave, or rain dance set. Even further, Klefki is able to be on virtually any type of team. It can be utilized on stall, balance, and offense. On stall and balance it is actually a useful counter to many Pokemon, including the very difficult to counter Heracross. On offense, it is a viable Pokemon to check setup users, while providing extremely useful resistances.

Like I said, Klefki may not be broken in practice for now, but I'm very confident it will be seen as broken if we just give it time. And if I'm that confident it is potentially broken, then I'm just going to expedite the process and vote BL.

So I kinda thought it might be a bit too much support before I even tried it, but after I put together a defensive team (which prolly sucks; no T-spikes absorber and weak to CM Reuni, while Ass Vest Donphan is still super weak to special hits, it's great offensively tho) I could see that it gets way too many chances to set up stuff due to its amazing typing. Spikes are simply annoying and the only spinner that switches in without issue is Donphan (well, Nat Cure Starmie too, but that has issues with spinblockers as is), while defoggers aren't common enough after Zapper's departure—seriously, I dunno where you got that Defog completely wrecked it when the only common ones are Mew and Mega Aero, neither of which enjoy getting paralyzed. I used a simple set of Reflect / Spikes / Dazz Gleam / T-Wave with a Bold nature, with Wish support from Umbreon it was very easy to keep healthy and it always had two mons where it could come in almost for free.
While I used it on semi-stall, I can't think it would be worse in HO teams, since those can usually just break through stuff before getting the chance to spin. It's kinda a combination of Azelf and Froslass but without their unique traits (priority makes up for it tho).
Also, priority T-Wave needs a separate paragraph. There are so many completely deadly sweepers that can get completely wrecked by prio T-Wave (as shown here), and while that is a godsend for my teams—fuck VenoKing tho—I'm not sure it's super healthy for the metagame.

Tl;dr: Key opens way too many doors in one. Easy to get in, easy to keep healthy, annoying as hell to beat. Nice Honch check, tho!

Priority spikes/twave/screens/weather setting alone is very good but in conjunction with decent typing and staying power, klefki really is a problem. Klefki really doesn't have much in terms of offense besides running an okay sub cm set on stall but it really doesn't need to be anything more than a prankster support poke. It can be put on any type of team and be effective. Unlike the common suicide hazard leads in uu, klefki gets up hazards way easier due to prankster/decent bulk and can spread para easily to cripple offensive teams and defoggers.

kokoloko · Apr 22, 2014

Hydreigon | UU

While Hydreigon is easily one of the hardest Pokemon to switch into in the entire tier (honestly if you're using Hydreigon to wallbreak and can't break Florges, you're using it wrong), which is what got it sent to BL in the first place, the fact is it's not doing anything unthinkable. Wallbreakers are supposed to wallbreak--Pokemon such as Nidoking are just as hard to switch into. The Choice Scarf set is far from broken, obviously. In fact I'd say Hydreigon has a positive influence in the tier, due to keeping dangerous threats such as Mega Houndoom and Chandelure in check.

dragon is pretty good. Its movepool is rather nice, sporting some nice coverage, but it's kinda slow. It has counters like Florges that can deal with it and since it's slow, it is easily revenged killed by something faster. Back when we banned it originally, I voted n for banning it. After playing with it now, I still find it to be ok. dragon can stay.

Hydreigon is easily countered by Florges. While it's dumb to say that a Pokemon should be UU based on one Pokemon, given that it has such a high usage, it should at least be considered. With the influx of offensive teams, I don't really see any Life Orb set being all that viable, especially since it fails against most balance/stall teams. Therefore, the only really viable set is the Choice Scarf set, which is mainly used for its resistances/immunities. Hydreigon is far from broken, and actually is quite healthy for the metagame.

has problems getting past florges (and maybe umbreon and vaporeon) which are everywhere and isn't all that fast which makes it prone to revenge killing since it has weaknesses to common attacking types. it is strong, but it often causes you to lose momentum and accomplishes nothing vs stall

Hydreigon is probably one of those pokes that is possibly broken on paper but it's not as good in practice (to clarify it is VERY good in practice, but not "broken good"). LO roost is probably the only set i'd consider problematic but as well as being hard walled by florges, I found it can be played around and there's a decent number of things that can outspeed it and revenge it. It may seem weird to vote UU for something that has such limited counters but I think it's just one of those cases where in practice it's not unreasonable to deal with.

On paper, Hydreigon has all the necessary tools to be one of the most unstoppable wallbreakers in the tier, unfortunately though this doesn't exactly translate into battle. It's typing, while nice to check things such as +1 Honchkrow, Mega Houndoom's STABs, as well as immunities to Psychic and Ground (Due to Levitate), unfortunately means it is hit super effectively by nearly every viable Scarfer in the tier (Mienshao, Heracross, Darmanitan, Victini, Krookodile), meaning that Offensively speaking, it is a rather easy Pokemon to check. It also severely suffers from 4MSS (4 Move Slot Syndrome). Sure, it does have one of the best movepools from both the Physical AND Special spectrum, but it is still only allowed to run 4 moves meaning that after it's STABs Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse and Dark Pulse, you have 2 moveslots to choose between so many options, not limited to Roost, U-Turn, Fire Blast, Iron Tail, Surf, Superpower and Flash Cannon meaning that although you have the potential to hit everything in the tier Super Effectively, realistically you're going to have to pick and choose what you're going to beat. This, finally coupled with the fact Fairies are pretty much the best stop to Hydreigon (granted Iron Tail's shaky accuracy can sometimes pull through) which unfortunately for the 3-Headed dragon, is the type of the number 1 most used Pokemon in the metagame, Florges.

Hydreigon is strong and versatile. But the flaws it has like the awkward speed tier, the common presence of Florges and the fact that its so easy to check don't make it overpowered imo. The typing is also really nice to check one of the biggest threats in UU like mega-Houndoom, which makes often overlooked pokemon like Mega-Abomasnow viable as well because it now has a partner that can switch in on hot dog.

While Hydreigon definitely has an amazing movepool and high attack stats, its speed is relatively low, allowing it to be revenge killed rather easily. Additionally, its arguably best set (LO 3 attacks with roost) is hard countered by pretty much every fairy, and it certainly doesnt help that the most used pokemon is Florges.

OK so Hydra is really good. Like really fucking good. It's strong, it's bulky, it's immune to Spikes, and it has a moveset that can fit almost any need you have. So why should we keep it? Because sadly, it faces a lot of roadblocks to actually do what it's meant to be doing, which is tearing up worlds wallbreaking. Sure, it can beat Florges or Umbreon (or even Blissey when it drops) if it has the correct move, but then it misses out on beating something else, which leaves it at the mercy of status that puts it on a timer. Against offensive teams, while it's harder to switch into it can be revenge killed by a lot of mons—unless it's wearing a Scarf, which obviously means it's gonna be weaker against non-offensive teams.

I still can't really think it's healthy for the metagame because it's so strong, but unfortunately the introduction of Fairies means that it's no longer able to get SE coverage on almost everything in one set, so it's not quite one full step ahead of the other wallbreakers.

coming soon.

Hydreigon is super powerful. But unlike other strong Pokemon, Hydreigon is not a broken one. It is extremely easy to check, and not too difficult to counter. It doesn't help that it has a super awkward speed tier. Overall, the perfect example of a really strong, yet not broken Pokemon.

kokoloko · May 9, 2014

Magnezone | BL

Honestly, even during Beta i never thought Magnezone was straight up broken. It hits so damn hard that it easily fits the definition of "potentially broken", but its low Speed, which, granted, it kind of benefits from, prevents it from doing insurmountable amounts of damage. It's a breaker, it's supposed to hit stupidly hard. Fire and Ground being crazy common attacking types doesn't help its case either.

During UU beta, I thought Magnezone was really broken, mostly because Tornadus-T and Latias were so common giving it lots of opportunities to switch in and it would just kill even the most specially defensive walls like Umbreon and Hippowdon. However now, with the meta being much more offensive giving Magnezone less opportunities to come in and wreack havoc, it is just an incredible wallbreaker instead of an overpowered doomsday weapon. It's also relatively slow, making it easy to check and the fact that 99% of all the Magnezones will be specs makes it fairly predictable.

Magnezone, like its younger brother Magneton, sports some terrific wall-breaking capabilities. However, predictable movesets, the prevalence of its choice specs set, and minimal coverage (outside of electric, steel, hp grass/fire) allows many common switchins to come in, take a hit, and dish one out at Magnezone.

Due to the sheer number of ground and fire types in the tier, Magnezone can't quit steamroll the way some people think it can, especially if it's locked into a move. And whilst it sports incredible offensive abilities, it does not meet my requirement of a "broken mon".

The only reason you'd possibly vote UU on Magnezone is if you think the metagame is too fast paced for it. But what people aren't understanding is that the metagame shifted in favor of a more fast paced metagame, specifically because of Magnezone. The fact that stall and balance are pretty much dead right now is evidence enough to its insane power. Let's not even forget its bulkiness and resistances allow it to continuously come in.

i'll have to say it for similar reasons to what have been posted above. it's not that i think magnezone itself is too strong for UU, but the ripple effects that its presence causes makes it banworthy. it absolutely annihilates defensive teams because most of the premier special walls get smacked around by anal specs stab moves, and even if they can tank one (see: umbreon), volt switch is almost as powerful and stops any chance of healing. mag has his fair share of flaws; tons of common weaknesses, slow as shit, a STAB has an immunity, but when his existence helps to shift the metagame so far from the stall based one that we had before to one in which stall is far less viable, i would rather give him the boot.

Magnezone is slow and has some very exploitable weaknesses. Any set besides specs analytic is too weak for me to consider broken so I"m gonna focus on specs analytic (maybe LO analytic is strong enough but then you're wearing yourself down which is totally fine for the non-zone team). Specs analytic is, ofc, the set that every talks about but because it's choiced it's not as simple as spamming any move and winning. You can't just spam tbolt because of all the grounds, flash cannon is more spammable but this can be walled too. I mean, even cores like Florges / Slowbro / Hippo that magnezoneshould destroy have ways around it because of how magnezone is restricted in its movechoice (florges isn't even that much of a magnezone bait if it's prepared with the right support since lol protect and now i can switch to the right resistance). And if it's not restricted in its movechoice it's not going to be nuking you as badly.

Perhaps specs analytic has no (or nearly no) true counter, but in practice its slowness and exploitable weaknesses are enough to mitigate this, and also you have to predict correctly if you want to do work on teams that are able to sponge both tbolt and flash cannon..

Magnet pull deserves a mention. Magnezone is a great team supporter for steel trap teams but I don't think it breaks anything atm by trapping steels. Maybe this will change if the dragons / raptor etc. come back to UU but for now it's fine. Just thought I should mention this.

Magnezone is easily one of the most powerful wallbreakers to be introduced into the XY UU Metagame. The combination of it's monstrous 130 Special Attack and Analytic (1.3x boost when moving last which includes switching) means that Magnezone has nearly 0 safe switch ins and even if they do resist Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, nearly all of them are maimed by it's other STAB move of choice. With this being said, Magnezone is a relatively easy mon to check, Fire Types and Fighting Types are present throughout the tier, this however doesn't mean that Magnezone lacks the ability to come in on the many resists that it does have and proceed to wreck havoc. Especially with the shift from a more balanced meta to a far more offensive meta (this being largely because of Magnezone, showing how overcentralising it has become like Limitless mentioned), the switch ins to Magnezone are even more scarce and the only real way to stop Magnezone having any sort of an impact is to maintain offensive pressure 100% of the time, an unrealistic task at that. So with, Magnezone's pure offensive capabilities and the impact that it has put on the Metagame that Balance and Stall are almost completely unviable to run, this, in my eyes, warrants the magnet to go back to the realms of BL.

Back when we banned it originally, I wasn't the biggest fan of Mag being in the tier. I felt it was Rather Strong and, for that reason, I didn't want it in UU. Playing with it in the tier now, my opinion is still the same. Balance / Stall teams are just obliterated by this magnetic UFO and encourages an offensively heavy metagame. As a player who typically uses balanced teams, I am not a fan of this meta at all and I don't think Mag will lead to a better UU.(◕‿◕✿)

it muscles through nearly every special wall and has the bulk and typing to come in many times. the only way to deal with it is to keep up offensive pressure often but obviously not every playstyle can do that

so, though i still think magnezone is extremely powerful, it really isn't that unbeatable. basically it didn't exactly "gave me a free win" in pretty much every high ladder game, in the most scenarios it forced a 1 for 1 kill as king uu mentioned, this happening mostly because of its proneness to being revenge killed due to its very low speed and exploitable weakness. my problem with it was that it kinda made stalling a VERY HARD strategy (not to say just impossible), but since that alone is not enough reason to ban it, im voting UU.

Magnezone is a pure wallbreaker with great coverage (for what it needs to get done), analytic (that activates vastly more times than not due to slow speed and ability to force switches), and a base special attack of 130. The power and coverage it gets coupled with the amount of 'free' switches it can get on some of the more common UU pokes due to it's typing/decent defenses, magnezone gets a lot more chances to wallbreak and gain momentum than some of the other more frail wallbreakers. The most devastating set is choice specs, while predictable still hurts like a bitch and usually results in something dead if you predict wrong. Despite specs being the main set magnezone can also run a good AV, LO, or Ebelt set that gives it more variety then just being a 1 trick pony. The fact that it is slow does make it easily revenged by the common fire/fighting types in UU but none of them are going to be able to switch into a mag hit without taking massive damage/dying so that means something else is probably going to have to die for the revenge killer to come in and unless you are playing HO then that's pretty hurtin for a team.

coming soon.

kokoloko · May 17, 2014

Crawdaunt | BL

no safe switch ins to the cb set. even if you predict correctly you'll still probably lose your item. it's not hard to get crawdaunt in safely since there are so many good pivots such as hydreigon and u-turn mew and everytime it comes in on something slower you're put in a tough situation. also the sd set is pretty much gg for stall teams

Whenever a Crawdaunt switches in, 9 times out of 10, a strategy has to be improvised to deal solely with the Crawdaunt, lest you risk an easy and simple sweep.

The combination of adaptability and knock off, with the combined possibility of over 4 standard sets (DD, SD, Sash, Band, and more), AND the fact that Daunt can theoretically fill in the required offensive roles on ANY team makes this mon beyond broken.

UU is not ready for this level of Hyper Offense. Daunt must go.

It sounds a little funny to me, but after the first day or two I thought it was really underwhelming. However, that was mainly because I was using the SD set. The Choice Band and Dragon Dance sets just hit way too powerful. It was honestly getting to the point where you'd pivot the entire time till you got Crawdaunt in the game, and then he'd kill something. And then the game would just keep going on and on like that. This vote should have happened a long time ago and I can't wait to not see it on the ladder anymore.

Lobster is kinda strong. By that, I mean it is really strong. Switching into it is kinda awkward as there are limited reliable switch-ins. This makes a more offensive UU, which I'm not too fond of. The strong that lobster brings is too strong for UU. BL pls. (◕‿◕✿)

Choice Band and DD sets break it. It's as powerful of a wallbreaker as Magnezone, but the sheer utility and coverage of Knock Off as well as priority mean that the number of switch-ins who can truly be called safe is extremely low. Those that come close to "countering" it are subpar otherwise, and their ubiquity during the suspect is a testament to Crawdaunt's brokenness as well. Moreover, Crawdaunt has far too much variability. A single Dragon Dance puts Jolly Daunt at a level of speed and power that leaves him faster than the vast majority of the unscarfed metagame (up to Shao) and able to clean up most of the things he can't outspeed with Aqua Jet. Finally, Craw's access to Aqua Jet limits his effective offensive counters to mostly dragons like Hydreigon.

Even without the boosting moves it does get, crawdaunt just hits way too hard with adaptability and has the coverage to abuse it effectively. The drawback of daunt is that it's slow and frail but +2 SD aqua jets and +1 dragon dances allow him to mitigate the speed factor while giving him even more power. Bottom line is that nothing really switches into crawdaunt.

Crawdaunt is stupidly powerful, and it has absolutely 0 counters because even the #1 Crawdaunt check, Chesnaught, is nailed by an Aerial Ace. Would be checks like toxicroak and hydreigon get raped by a knock off. And mons that would check it by outspeeding in the past like Nidoking and Victini are now removed with a simple click of aqua jet after SR damage.

no counters. not complete deadweight vs offense like some other nukes. too strong.

Hits so insanely hard, has almost no counters and the ones that do counter it can be disposed by 1 or 2 coverage moves. Knock off is retarded this gen, adaptability makes it one of the strongest knock offs in the entire game and with the change that steel doesn't resist anymore crawfish is just way too good. It also gets priority which fucks offense.

clear BL in this one. it's just a complete monster that has access to like the best move in the game and a strong as shit priority move against offense.

Easy to get in with Volt Switch and U-turn and causes massive damage to anything slower, essentially crippling it if it even survives. CB is cool but Lum/DD and Focus Sash also have good merit on it, as all it needs is to get off one crippling Knock Off and it has done its wallbreaking job, even being able to pitch in afterwards by spamming Aqua Jet late-game. As such, it is also able to hold up well against offense and is part of the reason why Scarf Hydreigon is the best scarfer for the meta, as Krook, Tini, Darm, and even Flygon take too much damage from Aqua Jet late game.

Kinda sad cuz it's pretty interesting meta. Jynx, Heliolisk, and Alomomola popped up as some pretty viable checks to it that still had merit against teams without Daunt and in general we were able to stray away from the Fire spam that the meta was before. But overall, I feel like it's way too strong for the tier and brings way too much wallbreaking utility to the team.

imo the easiest vote so far, CB is basically impossible to switch into, while sash DD actually sweeps far too easily given spin support. and though crawdaunt is frail, it's really easy to switch it in through double switches or volt switch/u-turn

Ernesto · May 31, 2014

Salamence | BL

i used florges to check this thing on my teams even though it gets ohkoed by +1 iron tail. that was because i couldn't think of that many viable counters to this thing due to its versatility and power. the scarf set is the most common which is probably why people think that it's not that bad but the mixed and dd sets are too strong

This was a tough decision. Since its arrival, everything about Salamence suggested to me that it could deal with almost anything in the tier. With the ability to circumvent the most common of UU's walls and counters (via fire blast, iron tail, access to EQ and roost), at first glance it seems like this scurry dragon should be banished to BL. So I decided to play, and play, and play.

That's when I realized the overwhelming presence of Salamence's 4 move-slot syndrome. The Scarf sets being predictable enough, even a DD Lum/DD Life Orb set - although vicious - is not remotely unstoppable. I would banish Salamence to BL if it weren't for Pokemon like Forretress, Florgess, etc.; a Salamence can rarely carry both Fire blast + Iron tail, lest its sweep remain underwhelming in nature for anyone who caries an Arcanine, Swampert, Suicune, Mew, Hippo, and other things that can burn/toxic/stall/phaze. Ice shard is a thing, as are powerful priority E-speeds/sucker punches from Pokemon such as Entei, Honch, and Absol. Any base 101+ scarfer outspeeds... this is not hard to find in UU. With Stealth Rocks, let it be safely said that there are ways to deal with Salamence without breaking the bank; we're not dealing with Crawdaunt here.

What the above example illustrates is the fundamental weakness in Salamence's "broken-ness". Both Moxie and Intimidate have their holes that allows different options to surface when dealing with Salamence. Yes, teams should be prepared to face one, but not it exclusively: Dragon Dance and other speed boosting moves are not uncommon in today's Meta, and base 100 speed is manageable. Gen VI UU introduced a plethora of exotic options when facing threats, and Salamence adds to that list. While its arrival will certainly create an (understandable) shift in the meta - and its usage will make it marginally centralizing - when I think of unaware Quagsire showing up and beating 5/7 standard Salamence sets, I can't help but smile and think UU will be alright.

I found mence surprisingly manageable - at least, more manageable than I thought it would be. Its versatility makes it extremely deadly, but i mean, I wasn't getting destroyed by mence every single game and neither were my opponents when I was using mence against them. DD is actually kind of hard to set up, and if you do manage to set up there are still some pokemon that manage it. Mence has to pick and choose with the mix sets, so you kind of have to play the "ok what am I more concerned about" game since you can't really deal with everything. Draco Meteor + Fire Blast + Iron Tail is probably the closest to hitting everything, but ugh Iron Tail. The SR weakness really helps in dealing with mence as well.

Mence is one of those thing that I could see proving broken in the future, but all I can go on is my experiences in the metagame. While salamence perhaps has no true counter on paper (well cresselia exists but you get what I mean), it just wasn't proven to be broken to me over the course of the test, so that's why I'm voting UU.

This was an extremely hard decision for me. I want to make it clear that I only chose BL due to the Dragon Dance set, not the mix or Choice Scarf sets (though the versatility definitely added to it). The difficulty with the Dragon Dance set is its ability to tailor its moveset to the team it's on. With access to moves like Iron Tail and Crunch, its supposed "counters" simply become lured checks and Salamence is able to sweep from there. I don't agree with my fellow council members when they say it's hard to setup, as you really only need one Dragon Dance to sweep an entire team. I think it's fairly unreasonable to assume you can't pick one time in an entire battle to setup. More specifically, a team centered around luring in Pokemon that allow Salamence to setup makes it even more destructive.

ok, this was a hard vote. first off, the scarf and mixed sets caused me no troubles when i faced it, and i didn't felt that uncounterable when using them; what made me think it was BL was the INCREDIBLY HIGH sweeping potential of the DD set (i used adamant dd + outrage + iron tail + fire blast @ lum berry). it isn't that hard at all to set it up, with 95/80/80 defenses with intimidate, as well as ground immunity, fighting/bug/fire/water/grass resistances, and it only really needed 1 dd to wreck an entire team, reaching 600+ attack and outspeeding everything but positive base 90 scarfers, as well as having a 180 bp move that is neutral or se against 15/17 types.

why the heck did i vote uu then? well basically i actually think mence lacks a bit of power. it cannot OHKO a lot, a lot of the walls in UU, including but not being limited to hippowdon, swampert, slowbro, aromatisse, celebi, quagsire, mew, cresselia (actually it can't even 2HKO this one no matter what set), and much more. i'd argue it's more dangerous against offensive teams, but it still doesn't have an easy time against those, since it's weak to SR, has a hard time setting up (i think pretty much no good offensive teams have pokemon that give free turns to mence, and, if they have, they probably have a good check to it), and can be revenged by faster mons or ice shard. i can definitely see it becoming broken in the future though, but i don't think it's broken right now, so uu.

like everyone else has said, this vote was very close for me. However, after playtesting with salamence and using practically every set I could think of, I'm confident that it's relatively healthy for the UU metagame.

It's certainly true that mence's coverage and stats allow it to break through its hardest counters. +1 Iron Tail can OHKO Florges 75% of the time, and Fire Blast offers some insurance against steel types. However, Salamence is kept from being broken not by its abundance of counters, but by its abundance of checks (some of which are pretty close to counters). Among other things, Rhyperior, Celebi, Quag, Mew, Slowbro, Hippo, Defensive Empoleon, Defensive Krook, Suicune, Heliolisk, Mienshao, Cloyster, Froslass, and Shaymin all can easily take a hit or two from Mence, outspeed it, or just OHKO it. There are just a lot of pokes in UU that are bulky with significant offensive presence, and the team presence required to eliminate or weaken all of these threats (as well as whatever hard counters Mence can't deal with due to 4MSS) can make Salamence seem a lot more broken than he is.

And yes, Mence is versatile - and this versatility does allow it to eliminate some of its checks and counters. However, at the same time, they add new ones. Yes, Hone Claws + DRush/FireBlast/IronTail and BandMence can destroy stall and fuck up the rest of the metagame, but it's then outsped by all pokes over base 100 and every scarfer. Yes, Sub sets can block WoW and set up even more, but the loss of a coverage move and the vulnerability to crobat hurts them as well. ScarfMence is not extraordinarily threatening, which makes Dragon Dance the most threatening set, but even this is checked by so many pokes that it can hardly be called broken.

Salamence sports one of the best mixed attacking stats in the tier and possesses pretty much every move needed in order to play out a variety of different roles. It's ability to play as a DD sweeper, a ridiculously powerful Choice Band User, a Moxie Scarf Sweeper, a Mixed Wallbreaker, a Sub Set up Wallbreaker/Sweeper even a Defensive Pivot similar to Arcanine through the use of Intimidate. All these things give Salamence the versality to adapt to pretty much any position a team requires and unlike Hydreigon it can effectively run all of these sets, some with more flaws than others but nevertheless you can't safely bring in your Florges, your Hippo, your Slowbro whatever mon you have as your 'designated Mence/Dragon counter' because Salamence has that ability to run such a large variety of options. So unless you're going to bring your Florges, Hippo, Slowbro, Defensive Krook and 6 Scarfers (not a dig at PK just using the mons suggested as an example) then Salamence is going to be an extremely difficult pokemon to deal with similarly to how Victini played in Gen 5 only Mence has the ability to boost it's Attack and Speed on top of having that fantastic coverage. So with that being said, I believe that Salamence is too powerful for the UU metagame and should be put back into BL.

i gotta say BL. this was a tough one for me but i think that overall mence's presence is unhealthy for the metagame. none of the sets are inherently impossible to beat, but the existence of a lot of viable sets that fuck over the counters of the others puts it over the edge. the mix set can break through most everything and the DD set had some truly outrageous power if it goes full offensive. nice typing means it will usually get a chance to set up, and sr weakness isn't nearly as crippling as it once was.

I was rather torn on this decision. MENCE's based attacking stats and move versatility make it pretty hype. Dragon Dance makes what is an already strong dragon into a Stronger dragon. With Iron Tail, Crunch, and the other million moves that it learns, Mence can surprise any check with a super effective move and get it out of there. Mence can fit most any team and in any role. Whether its a Dragon Dancer, mixed attacker, Scarf, w/e, it does work for the team that it's on. I don't like it. Get it out.

While not straightup broken, Salamence does have an unhealthy presence in the tier. It's access to a variety of sets to fuck over it's usual counters and the fact that it can use Dragon Dance unlike it's other Dragon bro Hydreigon, make it very hard to take on for all kinds of playstyles. This is why I think it's better off not wrecking UU and make its home in BL once more.

Due to the presence of Fairy-type Pokemon in the tier, Salamence is forced to run subpar move choices if it attempts to sweep--specifically Iron Tail. Without it, it will be stopped by any team running Florges, which means about 25% of teams won't be severely damaged by it. Even without accounting for this fact, Salamence can be stopped by either the multitude of bulky Water-types in the tier (who have to run Ice Beam, which is fine) or Steel-types, such as Jirachi, Mega Aggron, or Metagross.

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kokoloko · Jun 16, 2014

kokoloko · Jun 16, 2014

Staraptor | BL

Despite the absolutely absurd damage Staraptor puts out, and despite the fact that Brave Bird's resists are few and far between, I have been strikingly disappointed by it. Not in the sense that it's a bad Pokemon, not at all, it's just that between its decidedly underwhelming bulk and flat-out bad defensive typing, its opportunities to come in and actually do its job are extremely scarce. It's basically a slightly better Darmanitan, which I think we can handle.

the metagame is a lot more offensive than the previous and it limits the amount of chances non-scarf sets have to do work. it's slower than metagame defining threats such as infernape and aerodactyl and is vulnerable to priority which is everywhere. defensively it does have a few switch ins such as jirachi, metagross, mega aggron, doublade, and alomomola (combined with the right pokemon to take the following attack) which means it doesn't make stall or balance unviable. defensively it doesn't provide anything and is weak to sr so theres nothing to talk about there.

staraptor is really strong, but it really isn't game breaking. the band set does indeed hit incredibly hard, specially when staraptor's resists aren't so common, but it is frail/slow enough to be easily killed by so much of the meta, limiting the amount of work it can do (i rarely got more than 1 kill per game when i used it).

as for scarf, the other viable set (i doubt someone can think of a better set than scarf or band), it is significantly better against offense, the most common playstyle, but is now much easier to wall with pokemon like the ones FLCL mentioned, while still being frail.

It's not that I think any particular set is broken, but the combined scarf and band sets are a bit much. The scarf set alone is easily checked by pretty much every defensive wall, but the band set breaks every wall. The only walls that have a chance are Mega Aggron and Doublade, both of which don't have reliable forms of recovery. Slowbro and Aromo take well over 50% from Brave Bird, making them useless. This pretty much makes every defensive team punished pretty heavily. This vote is pretty fringe for me, so don't think I could have easily voted UU just as well.

although the "it works well with team support" argument is often inappropriate for judging the brokenness of a mon, it certainly needs to be considered, and that's especially the case with this suspect test. Other than aggron, the rest of Staraptor's counters are easily fucked over by a number of things - knock off, hydreigon, trappers like dugtrio/goth. Moreover, when we look at the pokes that do counter Staraptor (Mega-aggron, doublade), they're all relatively similar. They're extremely physically bulky, yet lack any form of recovery whatsoever and are easily worn down and destroyed by special attackers. Compare this to other wallbreakers, like Victini and Darmanitan. Their counters (in the form of Slowbro, Alomomola, etc) have up to three forms of recovery - passive recovery through Leftovers, Regenerator, and Wish/Slack Off, meaning that it's much harder to wear them down and much easier to fit into cores. Many offensive pokemon worthy of BL do have things that can wall them - for instance, the infamous Hawlucha was hard stopped by doublade. This didn't make it any less broken for the same reason - when you have to dig into the depths of otherwise underwhelming defensive pokemon with no forms of recovery whatsoever, it's more of a testament to that pokemon not fitting into the tier.

In this way, staraptor becomes rather unhealthy and restrictive for teambuilding. It's just another nail in the coffin for any form of defensive teams, who either have to run Doublade or run multiple checks, like Alomomola and PD Mega-ampharos. And yes, there are offensive counters, but that's inherent in Staraptor being a wallbreaker.

At the end of the day, I really do think a comparison between Staraptor and Vic/Darm/Entei is fair, but not the way people have been using it. The current uu wallbreakers have plenty of checks and counters with reliable recovery and incredible viability of their own. They also have offensive counters - like Hydreigon, mega-aerodactyl, etc. Staraptor lacks existing checks and counters in the UU metagame that are good enough to thrive on any team even when not facing against a Staraptor, and this makes it too strong and restrictive to stay in UU.

Honestly, there shouldn't even be comparisons to Darmanitan on this one. Flying is just a much more superior offensive STAB in UU, where Rock-types aside from Aero and Rhyperior just straight up don't exist, and all Steel-types except Jirachi lack reliable recovery, and are weak to either one or both of Fire- and Fighting-type attacks, which coincedentally, is one of Staraptor's 120 BP coverage moves. Recoil is one of Staraptor's downsides, but it doesn't hinder it anywhere near enough to make it a poor choice for a wallbreaker. Staraptor just enables way too may offensive 'mons to finish up an easymode sweep after kamikazing itself in exchange for an opponent's defensive core, as well as placing an absurd emphasis on the 100 base speed tier.

Flying/Normal/Fighting coverage on something with great attack and decent speed is just a little too much for UU. Reckless boosts brave bird/double edge even further and despite only being able to function well using choiced items it still wrecks. Scarf is still one of the best cleaners in the game as it is very easy to get rid of the few checks raptor has and just sweep late game while band just demolishes most of its checks, which for the most part don't have immediate recovery.

I was rather torn on this vote, but after a day or so of thinking, I decided on UU. It's really strong, but it's not like it doesn't have counters. Slowbro, Steels, and Mega Aero can all check Raptor pretty easily. Plus, Raptor is weak to SR, not very bulky at all, prone to most priority, and gets destroyed by its own BB / DE recoil, so it's not hard to take down either. Let it stay. :o

coming soon

Flying STAB coming off 120 Base Attack + Choice Band + Reckless is just too freaking strong. Pretty much every Physical wall in the tier is annihilated by Brave Bird + Close Combat and even shit like Doublade (which I was running) that resists + has 150 Defense + Eviolite still takes like 30% from Brave Bird, a true testament to how ridiculously strong that shit is. Obviously, Recoil and SR and shit can limit it just whipping the floor with the UU metagame but even if it comes in and dies to recoil it has generally a) Gone straight through a physical wall that is in the team to sponge physical hits or b) Put every wall on the opposing team at about 20%. Being susceptible to revenge killing or priority etc really isn't an argument since in order to revenge kill, something has to have died to be able to bring in that thing to be revenge killed and even then Staraptor isn't weak to Pursuit or whatever so there is nothing really stopping it from just switching out, similar to the deal with priority. The burd is the wurd and my wurd on the burd is that it should be going back to BL

Staraptor amazingly powerful Reckless boosted STABs+ a great coverage move in Close Combat(something other birds would kill for), are too much coming off a base 120 attack, especially when you consider Flying is one of the best offensive types. A banded set to shit on defensive teams is not all, with a choice scarf equipped it still has enough power to destroy offense. While it does indeed have its flaws, like that its hard to bring in because of its defensive typing, isnt enough to justify its place in the UU tier.

Band Raptor is extremely strong against balance / stall, but isn't fast enough to sweep offense, and runs into problems against physically bulky walls with reliable recovert (Alomom, Slowbro) that can pivot into the bird to identify the move it's locked into, before switching to the appropriate counter if necessary (Jirachi, Rhyperior, etc). It also lacks the ability to switch in safely and contributes no defensive synergy to the team, which is a large component of the current metagame.

Scarf Raptor is arguably the closest to broken; it combines the ability to cause Offense severe problems with the ability to pressure Stall / Balance enough that it's not as ineffective against those playstyles as typical scarfers are. However, it again runs into the problems I mentioned above, with the added problem of no longer being able to muscle past the titanic physically defensive giants in UU at the moment.

kokoloko · Jun 28, 2014

Tornadus-T | BL

The problem with Tornadus lies, not with its power, but its ability to outlast all of its checks and counters, save for literally two viable ones, literally every game. Hazard removal is so easy in this metagame that Stealth Rock is not a mitigating factor for most well-constructed Tornadus teams, meaning Regenerator will work at maximum capacity. This allows Tornadus to work as a pivot and wallbreaker early-mid-game and then clean the fuck up later--jobs that are usually accomplished by two separate Pokemon. Too many games have come down to last-turn Tornadus vs Tornadus Speed-ties, and that is simply not a healthy metagame state.

It doesn't hit especially hard, and I've actually grown fond of this metagame. That being said, it never dies. It can fit on nearly every team. You have to kill the entire other team before you can kill Torn-T, and that's why it's broken.

The problem with torn is its ability to outlast everything, especially when everything is getting leftovers knocked off and then an additional u-turn damage on top of that. The physical acro set is obviously the best and that set alone is broken. Regenerator is unbelievably fantastic on torn because if you don't do 100%, you still have to deal with torn and it's just really hard to wear down. It's not that torn has a huge attacking stat and just outright destroys stuff, but it just keeps pummelling away until stuff DOES fall, and with knock off removing lefties + taunt it's great at stopping recovery.

Let me start by saying that Tornadus-T is absolutely and irrevocably broken. It has immense staying power, decent offensive presence, and an amazing speed tier and movepool that, when combined with Regenerator, makes it quite difficult to take down. By almost any measure it's one of the best offensive (and defensive) pokemon in the entire tier at the minute, and it finds homes on stall teams with the pink core, balanced and bulky offense teams, and even HO teams.

At the same time, however, the metagame it creates is not unfun. It is not unhealthy. It is not centralized around one playstyle. Tornadus-T does have checks and counters, and they're not bottom-of-the-barrel trash like Doublade. Besides its numerous offensive and defensive checks, it is countered by Mega-Aerodactyl and Mega-Ampharos - pokemon that also find a home on essentially every type of team. The only problem with it is that it sticks around forever. But is this necessarily a bad thing? Isn't this trait something that is more or less inherent due to regenerator - a trait that we also see with Slowbro and Alomomola?

In many ways, I see Tornadus-T like I do Hydreigon. On paper, it's an offensive poke, but by dint of its typing / ability, it becomes an effective offensive check against the tier's most powerful forces - in the case of Hydreigon, against fire spam, and in the case of Tornadus, against Fighting spam. They're both tremendous at shifting momentum back into the user's hands, and they both are strong enough to deal significant damage. Because of how effective they are as offensive pivots, they are broken, but healthy - if not necessary.

There's a key difference between Tornadus-T and past suspects like Staraptor or Crawdaunt. Massive wallbreakers like these relied either on niche counters or the simple process of attrition - they were easy to wear down and offensively counter, but could just keep coming in and killing stuff. This led to a metagame that was unskilled and unfun. There's hardly any prediction or skill involved in using Banded Raptor against most teams other than getting it in. However, Tornadus-T lends itself to a metagame based on skill and prediction. Getting T-T safely in and out reaps massive benefits in terms of momentum, but mispredicting and getting it statused, killed (which isn't as hard as you might think!), or choosing the wrong move can be devastating as well. Tornadus-T encourages original and creative teambuilding in order to turn the momentum it brings into a negative - for instance, I utilized weakness policy Celebi and Mew, who can take any of Tornadus's attacks and pass boosts to extremely dangerous mixed sweepers like Infernape or Lucario.

If Tornadus-T stays in the tier, the metagame will change. It will be one of the premier threats, and it will be accounted for in teambuilding. It won't be uncounterable, but it will be extremely common. However, for me, the only thing that matters is how healthy the metagame will be with it. By playing extensively through the torn-t meta, I really can not say that I don't enjoy it, or that I don't think it's a skilled meta. It's varied, rather balanced, and yes - many games will end up with Tornadus-T being the last poke standing, just like they would be with RegenShao or Slowbro. However, I don't think this simple survivability is enough to send a broken but healthy Pokemon into BL.

I'd like to address KittenMilk's points because I see him as the only one really playing advocating Tornadus to stay in UU. It's pretty clear that Tornadus is not only broken but unhealthy for the metagame. The itemless set is probably the best stallbreaker in the tier with a powerful Acrobatics + Taunt + Regenerator. Keeping SR off the field is not exactly difficult with Mew's crazy bulk and good synergy with Tornadus. His counters are few and far between. Mega Aerodactyl is a really nice one and punishes Tornadus' existence, and Ampharos is a less good overall Pokemon but still a good counter. However, the problem lies in Regenerator. Tornadus does not die. You can smack it for 75% on the switch, and all it has to do is switch out and it's over half health. One double switch, which is not hard with the sheer amount of the metagame that Tornadus can check, and it is only a few percentage points from full health. Compare that survivability with, as you do, Hydreigon, and there is a very different picture. Hydreigon is a good stallbreaker, but in a different way, using its coverage and power to plow through stuff. the Life Orb set isn't nearly as good against offense, and it can still get worn down by LO + SR. It doesn't switch into half the metagame and it doesn't auto-recover HP when you try to counter it.

What I'm getting at is this: You can easily compare Tornadus-T's stallbreaking power to, say, Hydreigon. You can easily compare its natural momentum and ability to soft counter a lot of threats to Crobat. You can even compare its speed to Mega Aerodactyl. However, not only does it equal or better all of these Pokemon at the roles that they are top tier at, it does all of them with one set. I likened this to Crobat in DP UU because the saying was that there was NO reason whatsoever to not have Crobat on your team because of the crazy versatility. Same applies to Tornadus.

Tornadus-T was blessed with a fantastic offensive typing, amazing offensive stats, Regenerator and a great movepool. It's ability to outlast even the most solid counters right down to the end game just highlights how good Torn is as a Pokemon. Having seen battles where games were ending with a Torn-T speed tie to decide the game really made me question whether that is the metagame we want to have. One dominated by a Pokemon that although has counters, can do what few other mons can claim and that is the ability in almost all situations to run the exact same moveset and STILL be able to outlast said counters. Unlike Pokemon like Crawdaunt who required Aerial Ace or Superpower, Keldeo with HP bug etc Torn-T runs essentially the same 4 moves consisting of Knock Off / U-turn / Acrobatics / Taunt and STILL remains to be one of the most unstoppable mons in the tier. So with that being set, what I have in mind for a perfect UU doesn't have Tornadus-T anywhere near it.

I'm pretty much only writing about the itemless physical set, which is the variant I encountered the most, and probably the best set in the current UU meta.

The support that this Poke offers is unreal. Momentum is instantly shifted into its favor in way too many match-ups due to that sky-high (get it?) 121 base speed, solid STAB Acrobatics (110 base power Flying-type is nothing to shrug at), as well as solid utility with Taunt and Knock Off, which doubles as coverage, and U-turn just to keep the momentum shenanigans going. However, both Crobat and Tornadus basically fulfill similar roles, so that alone can't make it what's broken. Regenerator is what really tips the border. Crobat and Tornadus-I both have damage done to them in attempts to capture their momentum that cannot be healed by just switching/U-turning out. Crobat has to eventually waste a turn to Roost that lets it get severely punished, with its need to Roost further exacerbated by Brave Bird's Recoil while Tornadus-I is pretty much hard-limited by its health bar in what it gets to do. Ultimately, Tornadus-T's access to Regenerator allows him to effortlessly snatch a shitload of momentum in a manner similar to something like Genesect (yeah I said it), making it so good that it's viable on any archetype of team.

Ultimately I think it's way too centralizing, and much too good to stay in the UU metagame. I didn't even touch on more issues, like how Taunt can be forgone for other coverage options, how answers to the Physical sets are ridiculously easy to lure and KO with Special/Mixed sets, or how most of its counters lack reliable recovery, solid offensive presence, or both. Ban the genie bird.

coming soon to a theater near you

coming soon

kokoloko · Jul 12, 2014

Haxorus | UU

Okay, after trying to prove Haxorus broken, I pretty much came to the conclusion that it isn't. It's kind of exactly like Infernape in that if it can setup completely, it's godly. However, in practice it's just bleh. I tried it in normal heavy offense and screen heavy offense with still no luck. Half of it is that heavy offense sucks in uu, but that's beside the point. If Haxorus really was that broken, it would carry its weight. I was able to setup at least one Dragon Dance or one Swords Dance every game, but very rarely did I ever get more than a kill (if that).

And then there's the fact that as a community, we just don't want to adapt. Some things you just really shouldn't adapt for, but I believe adapting for Haxorus is actually healthy for the metagame. Maybe not healthy, but an acceptable different. Things like defensive Hippowdon, Mega Aggron, Ice Beam/Rocky Helmet Slowbro should be used more on bulkier teams. It's not that bulkier teams auto lose; they don't. And you don't really have to go that far out of your way to accomplish this, which is my main point. Bulky offense should just be able to use its momentum to either never let it setup or simply revenge it with something right away. Heavy offense should never even let it setup.

I realize this is a complete 180 in my opinion of Haxorus, but I've finally seen the light. Haxorus should be UU.

The big problem with Haxorus is that it's deceptively versatile for a mono-dragon type with physically oriented stats and like four viable offensive moves. Versatility does not break a Pokemon by itself, but it's what differentiates Haxorus from Pokemon like Heracross / Lucario that occupy similar offensive niches. Well, that, and its sheer power.

What do I mean by versatility? Well, Haxorus has three main sets: Double-Dance, SD + 3 Attacks, and DD + 3 Attacks. All three are borderline broken for reasons I'll cover below, but what makes Haxorus really difficult to deal with is that it could be running any set when you first run into it, and not only that, there are various quirks within each set that could potentially throw off any plans you may have to counter it.

SD + 3 attacks absolutely decimates stall, and does so without having to worry about status (due to Lum Berry) or being easily killed with random coverage (due to lack of 4x weakness). For example, I run into random bulky waters with Ice Beam, and the strongest of those (Slowbro) doesn't even do 70% to Haxorus. Meanwhile, +2 Dragon Claw 2hkos every bulky water in the tier 100% of the time after SR (well, 87% of the time for Suicune). No fairy in the tier can survive +2 Poison Jab (inb4 granbull) and even the mighty Bronzong falls to a Mold Breaker Earthquake.

The worst part, though, is that even if you spend your time setting up all the hazards under the sun so that Haxorus has a chance of dying to your bulky water's ice beam, you could run into something like this instead:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 402-473 (99.5 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Outrage is actually not that stupid anymore, since fairies are getting less and less common, and absolutely nothing besides fairies enjoys a +2 Outrage from this thing. And let's say you get clever and want to revenge with jirachi, right?

252 Atk Jirachi Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 150-178 (51.1 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 307-361 (90 - 105.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah. Good luck trying for the 60% chance with Iron Head. Except if it's at full health that may not even 2hko...

Anyway, on to the next set! DD + 3 attacks. Dragon Dance is a fantastic move, because it means that Haxorus can actually beat up on both offensive and defensive teams with the correct set up opportunity, though DD sets obviously have much more trouble with things like Ice Beam Slowbro. However, they make up for this by forcing you to run either Scarf Hydra or Scarf Flygon in order to avoid getting swept after one turn of set up (scarf mien fails to ohko unless it's reckless). Or, if you're like me, Ditto. I won't go through the list of offensive Pokemon Haxorus ohkos with this set (hint: all of them) but suffice to say that its decent bulk, lack of weakness to priority moves, and flexibility to run items besides Lum Berry (leftovers has a surprising tendency to pull it out of KO range for a lot of non-dragon scarfers and priority) make it hard to stop without very specific pokemon

One thing I noticed after using the DD + 3 attacks set is that you really don't need Poison Job; it really only gets coverage on fairies, chesnaught, and shaymin. This is why I think Double-Dance is by far the most dangerous set, and the one that pushed Haxorus over the edge from "potentially broken" to "broken" in my eyes. This haxorus is incredibly adaptable and versatile, allowing it to threaten both offensive and defensive teams with one set. I can't count the number of teams I've faced off against a balance team and SD'd on the switch to a Slowbro, and then DD'd as it tried (and failed) to kill me. Or the number of times I've just fired off a retardedly powerful outrage right off the bat, catching an overzealous scarfer (and you don't lose much from doing this, since LO outrage still 2hkos slowbro). And once again, the item choice presents an interesting dynamic here, as the threat of lum berry itself makes it a silly idea for a mon to try and paralyze you or burn you.

Anyway those are my thoughts, imo ban this, and if not everyone should use LO Haxy

I think people get caught up by the fact that Haxorus is mainly a set-up sweeper and judge it based on that, but in my eyes this ignores the fact that it's so incredibly strong even without boosts. Haxorus was constantly misused during the suspect test on the ladder - people spammed Dragon Dance on their Lum Haxorus even when there was a full health Slowbro. What makes Haxorus truly broken is that, if used correctly, he shouldn't always boost the first turn. The immense power that LO boosted Outrage has without any boosts should not be understated, and this enables sets like LO DD + Three Attacks to completely devastate the meta. Yes, Haxorus has checks in common pokes like RH Slowbro and Hippowdon, but it comes close to 2HKOing these pokemon even without any boosts, so Haxorus truly does not have any safe switch-ins. The dual threat of set-up in the form of Dragon Dance and Swords Dance as well as straight attacking is what truly tips the scales on Haxorus.

252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 188-224 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 179-212 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Regardless of how viable it is otherwise at the minute, Haxorus is also undeniably acting as a permanent barrier against any resurgence of stall as a dominant or even viable playstyle. Yes, the SD sets aren't common, but that doesn't mean they won't ever be used, and they should be factored into any analysis of viability. The fact remains that most every stallbreaking threat (with perhaps the exception of NP Infernape) has hard counters on stall still - Heracross has Gligar and Qwilfish, Special Stallbreakers have blissey, Banded Victini has Rock Helmet Alomo and Slowbro, and Swampert. And yes, maybe SD 3 attacks Haxorus isn't that great in this meta because no one runs stall, but as council members we have to analyze whether a Pokemon has the potential to be broken in the metagame. A Pokemon who can singlehandedly do work against offense and balanced teams and potentially completely negate the viability of stall in the future deserves to be banned even if it isn't de facto broken due to people not using it right.

Haxorus seems broken on paper, but in practice it doesn't actually make stall unviable or sweep through any team archetype with the ease that people expect from a dragon with 147 base Attack. It's wallbreaking capabilities are less impressive than CB and SD Heracross's and Mega Absol gives stall the dick harder than Haxorus does on a regular basis. Haxorus also brings an aspect to UU that we haven't seen since the dragons got banned--an immediate threat of a sweep to Fire-spam teams. Without Haxorus, shit like CB Victini can spam their ridiculously overpowered STABs with their biggest threat of repercussion being their team having to eat a nuke in return. With Haxorus around, spamming a V-create means you can get swept in return. This is healthy for the metagame and deterrs one of the most unhealthy metagame-states one can create: nuke, nuke in return, nuke again, etc. So yeah, I'd say Haxorus is a good presence in the metagame overall.

Haxorus is one threatening monster with its base 147 attack and access to boosting moves like Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, as well being able to destroy something right off the bat with a choice banded Outrage, however, it doesn't break the metagame like expected. It has a good amount of checks like Scarf Hydreigon and Mienshao. It's most powerful STAB leaves it prone to being revenge killed by Fairies and Steel types. Physically defensive mons like Aggron, Hippowdon and Suicune can roar it out before being set up on.

this was a difficult vote. in one hand, haxorus is extremely powerful, relatively speedy, has a very good typing and access to dd/sd. however, it's incredibly frail and this often prevents it from sweeping (for instance, it cannot survive the combination of a victini's v-create + absol's sucker punch), and relatively easy to revenge kill with scarfers like hydreigon, reckless mienshao or ditto. you can argue that it is impossible to beat haxorus with stall, but tbh there are other mons that render stall useless and are not even remotely broken, some arent even UU

haxorus is strong but it's extremely predictable at what it does. if defensive teams carry a set counter to sword dance haxorus they'll have no problems with any variant. the same applies for offensive teams and dragon dance haxorus. balance without a dedicated counter to it will probably lose one pokemon but haxorus is generally very easy to revenge kill due to it's easily manageable speed tier and reliance on outrage. overall it's a dangerous threat but not devistating enough to be banned

This wasn't very clear cut, but I have to go with my gut on this one. Haxorus is not obscenely broken. Its poor defensive stats mean that you can usually smack it around while it sets up to try and revenge it. However, what makes me vote it BL is its ability to absolutely dismantle stall. I don't want UU to become a tier of throwing offense at each other until someone loses. Preserving the viability of defensive teams is important for a healthy metagame, and having another Pokemon exist in the tier that can, with pretty much no effort or support, beat a stall team is not healthy. Furthermore, in the matchup against offense you will often have to sacrifice something in order to prevent Haxorus from DDing up on you. To take Koko's example of Haxorus preventing V-Create spam: Often times the Victini user will HAVE to sacrifice his Victini to prevent Haxorus from getting a free DD. That doesn't discourage nuking back and forth -- rather, it encourages spamming the strongest attack available because if you switch Haxorus is right there with the DD.

tl;dr promotes goodstuffs and decimates stall

It has average physical bulk, below average special bulk, and average speed, but its monstrous attack and access to two complementary boosting moves, especially DD, just give it too much versatility. I'm not even going to go into how SD decimates pretty much any full stall team that doesn't have Aromatisse (who isn't even guaranteed to survive the OHKO after SR). My problem with Haxorus is that the threat of it setting up is far too punishing for anything slower that isn't a defensive pokemon specialized to take it on. To me, Dragon Dance is what really clinches it, as it lets Haxorus nullify most methods of checking it, as now you can't outspeed it, and now your bulk has to hold up against +1 attacks, leaving pretty much only walls, which get trashed by SD. On top of all of this, Haxorus's power level is so high that it doesn't even need Life Orb and can run a plethora of other items to better cushion itself against anything the other team can bother to scrape up.

Broken on paper, but balanced in practice. The only time I've found Haxorus to be a problem is when it's allowed to accumulate multiple boosts, but in practice this almost never happens. Haxorus is relatively frail, and is easily revenge killed by common scarfers like Hydreigon and Mienshao after a DD. Priority users also have no trouble picking off a weakened Haxorus as it rarely gets to set up for free against offense/bo. It's versatility has been largely exaggerated; offensive teams that pack checks to DD Haxorus aren't going to be having any difficulties with SD Haxorus, and likewise stall teams that pack a SD counter aren't going to have trouble with DD. Overall, Haxorus is a threat that has to be prepared for, but in my experience it's nowhere near as overwhelming as some people have made it out to be.

Had a chat on IRC with Nas about it and concluded that although on paper it looks like it has all the necessary tools to seem like a pretty unstoppable set up sweeper, in reality, this just isn't the case. It's SUPER (and I can't stress how big this is) unfortunate speed tier means that it basically succumbs to the most relevant Scarfer in the tier meaning that offensively it is a relatively easy mon to check. It does have the problem, however, that it can't run 6 moves and 3 different items, it has 4 moveslots and 1 item slot. Meaning it chooses between having SD and DD and necessary coverage, SD + 3 Attacks or DD + 3 Attacks, all of which have answers both Offensively and Defensively. The argument that stall has no answers is kind of ludicrous, since Haxorus to beat stall must be 1) SD + 3 attacks (which sucks vs every other archetype and isn't a common set anyway) 2) Must set up this SD and in the case that it is LO, which is what every seems to throw onto their vacuum calcs of how Haxorus is way too strong, you're going to be risk being statused, attacked, Leech Seed'd, Encore'd whatever. So I think that Stall is still capable of dealing with Haxorus due to the fact that it has to run it's worst set in order to deal with it (coupled with it's heavy reliance on Outrage, which as we know can be played around with a Fairy + something to take Poison Jab), which really suggests to me that it isn't broken. If that is the case then SD Hera, Sub CM Chandy and CB Victini should all be banned because they are also able to break stall given the right conditions. But enough rambling, I can throw Haxorus into a vacuum scenario and throw every calc in the world at you about how strong it is and w/e, but in actual game practice, it isn't nearly as good as it sounds and is the reason I believe it is ok to stay UU.

This was very tough for me for several reasons. First, I suck at using mons that have so little defensive use that aren't called Zoroark, apparently. Therefore, the team I was using was prolly not the best to see Haxorus's performance. However, it did do some nasty things at breaking through bulky Water-types to ease in a win, but again, I suck at using mons that get 2HKOed by stuff like Bold Cresselia's unboosted Moonblast. Second, I started facing Sticky Web teams more and more often, which while on its own isn't bad because I could Defog it all the time, it meant that I'd have to play against SD + 3 attacks Hax, Heracross, CM Chandy, etc, which are generally very annoying for balance. Third, Haxorus rarely found a good chance to set up because stuff like Victini and Darmanitan never got a kill, meaning that I was generally forced to either outright attack (meaning I'd be forced out right afterwards) or set up and take a bundle of damage, because even though its overall bulk isn't as bad as, say, Infernape or Lucario, its resistances are either to ridiculously strong attacks (the already mentioned Fire moves), types that are generally paired with SE coverage (Shaymin, Ampharos), or Scald, which is always a gamble if I can't KO after one turn of setup. Basically what koko said about its ability to punish Fire spam is real, but it's harder to see on non-offense because Haxorus isn't Intimidate Mence. Fourth, and more importantly, was what I'd already said in the NP thread, which is the fact that I absolutely believe we're gonna have to draw a line at some point regarding Dragons. Had Mence stayed instead of been sent back to BL, I prolly would've simply voted BL on this because Dragon spam would've been a nightmare. That is not the case

Overall, Haxorus was a weird suspect because the sets that annoyed me the most were stuff that wouldn't have had it not been for the support it received, so I couldn't really get to the conclusion it was borked simply because of that, especially when my first experiences against it were that of a super weak mon that at most could only get one kill—given that I ran IB Rocky Helmet Slowbro, Aromatisse, and priority on my other team. Haxorus faces basically the same issues everyone could foresee, those being trolly speed, a STAB that wasn't the best to be locked into meaning that Choiced sets were basically out of the question, and a big number of solid priority users in the tier. That last point can't be ignored, imo, because while 76/90 means that the strongest priorities won't KO it, it also means that it'll never be able to sweep until the priority users are dead, since any damage while attempting to set up will mean gg for Hax. Sub variants can make up for that against Sucker Punch users, but Sub means either no Outrage if Salac, no way to boost Speed if Lum SD, or no way to break through balance if no SD, so it'll still be lacking in the sweeping department—which is what Sub is supposed to accomplish.

I honestly wish things would've been different, because I really felt Mence was healthier and having Hax in the tier means Mence prolly shouldn't be allowed back in, but after all these games I played plus the ones I watched from koko's laddering, I am forced to arrive to the conclusion it isn't broken. I still don't like it and am looking forward to never using it again (:P), but I can't for the life of me ban this disgusting lizard in a tier where the only playstyle it breaks isn't even good in the first place.

kokoloko · Aug 1, 2014

Venomoth | BL

The strategy is broken and uncompetitive. A combination of Defog Mew + Venomoth + random stuff is pretty much unbeatable. Then add in the fact that you can actually run bulky Venomoth as a pseudo Heracross counter makes this just too easy to place on teams.

Even ignoring the fact that it's easy to make phenomenal teams with Venomoth, its viability isn't even related to its brokenness imo. perhaps not broken over a sample size of hundreds of games, but for tournaments, higher level play, and general tier health it's a big no-no.

Between randomness of sleep turns, quiver dance / powder 5050s, and wonder skin, venomoth is resistant to almost any forms of reasonable counterplay. at the end of the day it doesn't even matter that sleep powder is only 75%, or that it's unreliable in the long term - the combination of being able to offensively threaten everything that can't be slept (other than forretress/esca unless you're tinted lens) and the ability to quiver pass makes the strategies that venomoth encourages absolutely unhealthy.

Any strategy that has no reasonable counterplay and has the potential to be abused should not be in the tier.

Baton Pass+Quiver Dance is just a stupid strategy that requires little skill while you can get a big reward for pulling it off, and Venomoth is an amazing user of the strategy. It's very hard to counter even if you do prepare for it with stuff like Roar Suicune or Trick Scarfrachi, and I'd rather not see it in this tier.

The main problem with Venomoth is that there is no reliable way to prevent it from QuiverPassing to some of the best receiver in the tier unless you're using a mediocre answers which are totally deadweight against the rest of mons in the tier (e.g. Dragon Tail Sap Sipper Goodra). Venomoths unique trait of Quiver Dance, Sleep Powder and Wonder Skin; along the reliable ways of removing hazards from the tier is what makes Venomoth broken, so it deserves to be banned from the tier.

It's not even just Baton Pass + Quiver Dance, but Sleep Powder too, so I'd say it's Venomoth itself that needs the boot and not some form of a complex ban. Incredibly hard to handle even with phazers and scarfers as well as being one of the easiest win conditions to support once it gets going. Such a shame because it has cool typing and support moves (Defog, Toxic Spikes) but its quiverpassing shenanigans are just too strong for the tier.

i barely saw any moth and i laddered a lot. venomoth is just silly with its 50/50s and strong ass win con

i actually only saw like 2 venomoths in the ladder (even during high ladder games). but basically, i'm voting BL for the same reasons i agree with the scald ban: venomoth just forces luck into the game, and i see this as a really unhealthy thing for tours.

Quiverpassing is a broken and uncompetitive strat, Venomoth makes all viable methods of countering it unreliable with Wonder Skin + Powder.

Didn't get much of a chance to play with or against this thing (not due to activity, just due to no one else using / hating to use it myself) but the few times I did play against the thing it forced the game down to so much fucking luck. Not a fan.

A very luck based mon, obviously a bad thing to have in the metagame, very similar in how it plays to Aegislash in the risk v reward sense but it's reward can basically end a game with 1-2 turns of quiver dance that is easy to set up with sleep powder, substitute, roost and WONDER SKIN so yeah ban moth.

Quiverpassing is almost OP on its own but venomoth can take even more advantage of it with wonder skin/focus sash/sleep powder.

Basically, Veno wasn't banned due to it being 'possibly' broken, since we could actually see what it did compounded with some great receivers such as Blaster, Nidos, Hydra, or Houndoom (or Florges!!). The only real differences from last time were Bliss and Luke dropping—and I guess Sap Sipper D-Tail Goodra counts, although it's not that good otherwise—and Fletch rising in popularity, not that it got much usage anyway. So I'm gonna have to base this off of my previous experiences—since I couldn't see it used in the ladder this time around—taking Blissey's presence into account. Last time, Veno could solidly set up on the two most common Special Walls, Florges and Umbreon, meaning that one had to resort to another check to it; now we have Blissey, which can T-Wave it or 3HKO non-bulky versions, but has nothing to prevent Veno from passing. When compounded with Nidoqueen/King, which are immune to both T-Wave and Toxic, Blissey can actually lose that matchup, even if the Nidos aren't running Focus Blast—she gets 3HKOed at +2 regardless of her spread by both EP and Sludge Wave, so she can't really PP stall them. And that's at +2. This means that slower teams lose anyway with Blissey. Obviously Sap Sipper D-Tail Goodra can beat it, but that's just one mon. Now for offensive teams, Veno merely needs a Sash to guarantee a setup, compounded with Defog/Spin support that simply works, unless you're facing koko's team I guess. Then Veno will be able to pass to a mon that threatens whatever is in, and if it doesn't need the +2 it can even pass without making the switchin take damage! Additionally, assuming Fletch couldn't switch in directly to SD because of Sleep Powder, it won't be strong enough to KO the receiver, meaning you'd be better off using LO Honch or Mega Absol.

It all comes down to Veno posessing three solid moves that become plain deadly combined, like everyone said. Even with the nerfs to Sleep Powder, it's still a big threat, and unless you run one of Overcoat Gyro Ball Forry (which can still lose to bulky Veno: 0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 223-264 (64.8 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery), the mentioned Goodra or Offensive Escavalier, Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance will still force a lot of 50/50s, and Sleep Talk users aren't reliable due to only calling the right move 33% of the time in most cases. For Choiced Sleep Talk users that's even worse, since unless they can outspeed +1 Veno, they aren't even good direct switchins because of said 50/50s—looking at you, Hera and Entei! Edit: and Bat!. All that said, the real kicker here is BP: in a similar way to how SS Beagle was super annoying—although not as retarded since it was forced to pass defensive drops—the combination of Sleep, Quiver, and Pass is just too much support. Wonder Skin is a retarded ability, I agree—it was ever worse last gen, when Roar and WW where affected by accuracy drops!—but Tinted Lens Veno would still be too good, simply being more annoyed by priority Encore/Taunt—and a well-timed Trick I guess. If they gave me an option to ban QuiverPass—let's face it: who cares about Masquerain? It's not even used much in NU, and even then it's mostly for Sticky Web—instead of Veno as a whole, since I don't think Veno is worse than Vivillon without that, I'd totally be on board; but as it stands, I prefer the no-Veno metagame.

kokoloko · Aug 9, 2014

Volcarona | BL

volcarona is not be the uncounterable monster everyone is making it out to be, as it does have a few checks and counters in the form of blissey, snorlax, rhyperior, arcanine, entei, infernape, mega aerodactyl, and goodra (and im sure im forgetting some). my problem with volcarona is the fact that revenge killing it effectively is nearly impossible. its typing leaves the good choice scarf users in the tier (the ones that actually outspeed it, btw) unable to kill it with anything other than stone edge, which leaves us with checking it w/ some of the aforementioned pokemon as the only reliable option; and lets be honest, about half of those are really niche or very hard to fit into a team. this in turn puts a huge strain on teambuilding, to the point where i can confidently say volcarona is definitely not healthy for the metagame.

Doesn't have good checks and counters, Aerodactyl would be one of the best checks but then theres:

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 207-243 (68.7 - 80.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Blissey can be beaten 1v1 if chestorest(although this isnt a great set imo). Other special walls are set up on like Florges. Really limits teambuilding.
Makes special scarfers almost a liability and physical scarfers have to rely on moves like Stone Edge to kill it.

haxorus was deemed UU and i dont think volca is much stronger than it. having hard counters as well as more checks than haxorus, i think it shouldnt be banned. it also punishes fighting spam, which i think is good for the meta

Volcarona has counters, but all the offensive ones are forced to lock themselves into underwhelming and inaccurate coverage moves in order to threaten Volcarona, which makes it extremely easy to take advantage of. Compared to say Nasty Plot Infernape being revenged by Tornadus / Alakazam / Mien / Bat / Scarf Krook etc, all of whom can lock themselves into their strong stabs and are hard to switch into, bringing in Mienshao to Stone Edge or whatever isn't ideal.

It does have some defensive checks and counters, although they are somewhat dismantled by coverage (read: chandelure, jellicent, rhyperior, entei, arcanine, goodra, bliss, Power Gem Mega Amph). More importantly though, many of these checks and counters are easily dismantled with team support. Dugtrio traps a fair few of them.

Overall, volcarona is in an interesting niche because it's simultaneously an offensive and defensive set-up sweeper. It's offensive in the sense that it can do shitloads of damage (with either set, tbh), and can threaten switchins to frail pokemon who outspeed it at +1 (in other words, there's a mind game switching something like Scarf Mien directly into volcarona, a mind game that doesn't exist as much when, say, switching Crobat into DD Scrafty). However, the combination of its stupid RNG ability, decent bulk, and access to roost make it a long-lasting and hard-to-kill setup sweeper that shares some similarities with Pokemon like Zygarde.

This was actually a fairly contentious ban for me because i used it in a lot of games (probably close to 100), and I always felt like when I used it it completely wrecked face, and yet I never had any trouble against it. However, I think this is more of a testament to people really misusing it by playing it like a late-game sweeper when its hard counters are still on the board (and because I ran a lure for volc in Power Gem Ampharos, a lure that would pretty obviously not work once people found out about it). With the proper team support, it's essentially an unstoppable force, and its ability to fulfill both a defensive and an offensive role as a set-up sweeper forces either the use of shitty and restrictive full checks like Blissey and Goodra or shaky coverage-based counters and offensive checks.

Volcarona is a tough call, definitely I can see people support him for not being banned because can be played around, specially with their horrible Stealth Rock weakness. Sadly, the reality is different; Stealth Rock weakness is not a big deal on this tier with great defoggers, spinners, fast taunters and even Mega-Absol to prevent hazards on mid-games.
About their checks/counters are pretty shaky; lots of them are easy to wall, exploitable or simply pretty niche which merely works to wall Volcarona, while also actually can setupp in a big part of the tier specially if Flame Body is activated. Personally I just find that Volcarona is too for UU and only have 2 sides, the first one are pretty shaky checks:
1. the ones depends about coverage (e.g. Aerodactyl-Mega).
2. revenge killers, faster physical stuff than Volca at +1 or priority super effective (e.g Scarf Victini or Fletchinder).
3. a few pure SpD walls - Blissey (sometimes Snorlax), prolly some another but v niche and depending on their coverage like SpD Hippowdon w/ SE in case that Volcarona doesn't run Giga Drain.
On the other side, Volcarona can setupp in a lot of pokemon called Nidoqueen, Mew, Hydreigon, Heracross, Aromatisse etc and sweep the opposite team.

Overall, I just find Volcarona too good win condition which only needs support to pass their checks and sweep the opponent team comfortably thats why deserves be banned from the tier.

Limited to only ScarfShao, ScarfApe, and Fletchinder to check offensive sets after one QD, which is ass, as Fletchinder is extremely niche and the other two have to lock into Stone Edge. Attaining the boost isn't even that hard as there are more than enough options to set up on (Fairies, Forry lacking Toxic, many common Mew sets, -2 Hydreigon, Nidos, and more) and amazing coverage on its STABs in conjunction with HP Water/Rock make it far too threatening for the tier despite that 4x SR weakness. Lots of options for hazard removal/prevention help mitigate this too. Ban.

Offensive checks are far too limited, the offensive qd set has very few hard counters and basically forces you to use Scarf Infernape/Mienshao/Fletch to check it effectively. Setting up the first QD is quite easy despite volc's susceptibility to hazards due to the abundance of good spinners/defoggers in the tier.

Offensive Volc often has a hard time finding opportunities to set up with how physically oriented the meta is (thanks Blissey), and it requires team support in removing SR just to not die immediately. Once it does set up, it's easily revenged by the many scarfers and priority users roaming UU, and it's not even strong enough to blow through common bulky offense / stall Pokemon (AV Rhyperior, Max HP M-Aero, Snorlax, Blissey are just a few examples). Volc can be handled by any playstyle without significantly constraining teambuilding, and is a healthy presence in the metagame.

Honestly, we just suspected Haxorus, and this thing requires much more support to set up and has many more hard counters once it does.

lack of revenge killers (HP water further lowers the number), good enough amount of setup opportunities, and the ease with which stealth rock is removed / prevented makes volc a lil too powerful for me ;]

After play testing Volc, my opinion of it before the test has completely flipped. It limits team building like crazy, basically making things like Mew, Aroma, Nidos, blissey lacking Toxic all complete set up fodder. At least with Haxorus you could pressure it with SE hits from these walls but by virtue of Volc's good and bad typing, it's set up opportunities are far more abundant and the big kicker between Haxorus and Volc is I don't have to go out of my way to use a Scarfer and lock itself into Stone edge to deal with one of them or run fletchy or w.e. So yeah poison buge is kill I think it's time for fire buge to join him :]

I gotta say I really enjoyed using Volcarona in this meta, although most of the time it wasn't doing anything amazing (although setting up on bulky Water-types IS pretty cool), Bulkyrona traded that immediate offensive presence for a more team-supportive role. I used 240 HP / 220 Def / 48 Spe Timid to outspeed everything up to Adamant Hera before boosting and 136+ Mega Aero at +1—you outspeed everything at +2 obviously—and it was pretty fucking cool, since it could switch into Fighting-types with SR off the field (obviously) with ease to scout for the burn, and if Mega Aero didn't run a Rock-type move, you could even try to scout for the burn since you survive a max Attack Aerial Ace / Aqua Tail from max health, meaning if you got the burn you could beat it without needing to run Hidden Power Water, lol. I guess if you wanted to, you could run up to 80 Spe to outrun Adamant Luke, but they'd generally use ExtremeSpeed anyway so the bulk was highly appreciated.
That set obviously faced a lot of issues with Toxic special walls, CM Chandy, and stuff with Rock coverage (or the mighty Facade Snorlax!), but played well, it could scout for the burn against Scarf Mienshao or Krook (the second one being totally risky because of EQ, I know, but you could if you wanted to since 252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 220 Def Volcarona: 162-192 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, meaning you could just switch out and Roost the damage off later). Other stuff this thing could do was setting up against Nidoqueen—not as easily against Timid King, but doable—much more reliably, and you could even set up on LO Hydra, lol. Although you generally lacked that ease in sweeping, it was super fun anyway.
The way I handled it in my team was basically a combination of T-Wave Blissey and Mega Aero; opposing Bulkyronas stood to losing to both Mega Aero and my own Volc unless they got a timely crit past paralysis. That wasn't really an adaptation from anything since it was the same team I used in the Mega Zam meta, where Volc wasn't used much since everyone was trying Luke, Ape, and Zam itself. However, I can understand the point of view that says people are forced to run a faster Scarfer with Stone Edge to handle it offensively, meaning only Mienshao and Ape (and I guess you can risk the Scarf Victini), or Fletchinder. It basically makes specially-based Scarfers unusable in the same way Raikou did in BW, which is certainly not a good thing. On the same line though, if you're running the common offensive set you stand to losing to priority from Luke, Absol, Honch, Entei, and even Zoro lol and if you're running the defensive set, you're handled more easily since now you're slower than Darmanitan and Krook (granted, it has to use Stone Edge too). Substitute helps against Sucker Punch, but then you struggle to beat Chandelure, Mega Aero, etc. I'm not saying that makes Volc more manageable, but it does mean offense has other ways of beating it depending on the set. That's not even mentioning they can try to use offensive pressure to prevent the opponent from removing SR, although that argument shouldn't carry much weight when we banned Veno already because with Sash it could set up against offense with ease—so I should try to remain on that line of reasoning.
One thing I think hasn't been looked into (I didn't even get the chance because we banned Volc too soon, lol) was Hax + Volc: Volc can scout for the burn against Scarf Shao and Jirachi to ease Hax's sweep, while setting up against them and Scarf Hydra, and Hax can set up on the Fire-types that kill moth while it can use SD to pave the way for a Volc sweep (additionally, Volc sets up on non-Toxic Fairies!). That might have been a very good core that would definitely break Volc, but since I could only theorymon, that isn't an argument.
So overall, Volcarona was really fun and not as unhealthy as other stuff we let enter the metagame. Toxic everything and Rock-type move everything can be considered as overcentralizing, but I'm forced to assume this was mostly because of people trying different things, because I can't find a good reason as to why you'd HAVE to run that when I didn't run either and was swept only once combining the Mega Zam meta and this one (I won't count the loss against WQ because the only reason I was put in that position was because I got some consecutive bad luck turns, while I could've won anyway with my own Volc outside of that timely crit o.O). So even if it doesn't matter anymore, my vote would have to be UU for the record.
[HIDE /]

kokoloko · Aug 21, 2014

Manaphy | BL

Fantastic stats, awesome coverage, literally the best boosting move (as well as CM too if you want that), puts an insane amount of pressure on a lot of different archetypes. Extremely difficult to actually fit a Pokemon with a super effective attack + higher than base 100 speed + enough power to actually kill Manaphy so it's extremely difficult to revenge kill without niche shit that fairs pretty poorly in the metagame. Basically the epitome of overcentralising, you might of dropped from Ubers this gen but you sure as hell haven't gotten bad enough to drop as far as UU this gen, catch ya Manaphy

i tried to vote it UU (as i always try in every other suspect), but i simply couldn't this time. manaphy disables every core with its tail glow set, and can usually take down 2-3 pokes before dying, because of its limited amount of weakness, good speed, perfect coverage and underrated bulk (it can survive HJK from scarf mienshao, draco meteor from scarf hydra, etc).

i only played like 15 ladder matches maybe but every time i faced manaphy it usually set up with ease and used its bulk to take out one or several pokemon with little effort. i was using froslass offense too so it's not like my team was too weak to kill it or anything. it can also bypass it's main counter in blissey with rain dance calm mind (i think) so yeah definitely ban

This thing is easily broken on the same level as Kyurem-B and Thundurus-T when they were UU. Great 100 base stats all around, one of the best boosting moves in the game in Tail Glow(can also go Calm Mind with HydraRest) and coverage that hits everything with with Ice Beam and Energy Ball, not to mention its good single type. Forced me to run stuff like AV or Specs Raikou which isnt very good otherwise and is an overcentralizing piece of shit. Easy ban.

I have played a bit only on Manaphy metagame but the few that I have seen and played is really wrecker, destroy balance easily which is pretty much the most universal playstyle, on stall teams you're forced to use Blissey + Slowbro CM/Grass type on every team so is kinda exploitable and against offensive teams Manaphy only needs a turn which really is not very hard because solid bulk and speed. TG + great stats is the key definitely but even when you're able to beat that set, Calm Mind beat the counters of that set and the opposite. So yeah ban the little mermaid.

Nice strong bulk and the ability to boost its power through the roof. Water-typing is a godsend on something in the base 100 spe tier and it easily nabs at least two kills every game. Tail Glow just gives every offensive team an easy win condition against Stall while holding up super well against offensive teams too.

Not much to say that hasn't already been said. Great bulk and incredible power after a single Tail Glow, as well as pure water typing makes Manaphy too strong for UU.

It completely takes out bulky offense, unless you want to rely on a speed tie. It's also still fairly useful against heavy offense, as Manaphy is extremely bulky.

The only real flaw found in manaphy is the fact that it's weak before set-up. However,this is easily mitigated by the fact that it's so damn easy to set up. 100/100/100 bulk and excellent typing allow for very few niche checks/counters to stop it. While 'offensive pressure' can keep manaphy off the field, this is pretty easy to circumvent with proper team building. Because of this, manaphy is essentially flawless and unstoppable. It is far too much for the metagame.

0 defensive counters, limited offensive counters, incredible bulk guarantees it at least one kill every game, good coverage / defensive typing... all the boxes are checked on this one. Far too constraining for the metagame.

When Blissey, arguably the most consistent defensive answer, can't even do anything back to certain Manaphy sets, that's a huge testament to how truly difficult it is to deal with. In turn, you're literally forced to apply (fast) offensive pressure against Manaphy, which in some cases may involve using more obscure 'mons like Raikou, Rotom-C, and Abomasnow-Mega, and sometimes even that's not even enough to prevent it from setting up and completely blowing through teams. It definitely cannot stay in this metagame.

It has great base stats, letting it outspeed a large portion of the tier (and forces a tie between Celebi and Shaymin which is pretty big considering they're one of the few grass types in the tier and manaphy kills both at +3), and it has the bulk to tank most hits from the things that do outspeed it, barring stuff like Raikou. While it does hit like a weak shit before boosting, it sets up with relative ease and is pretty much guaranteed to get a kill (not to mention the other sets it can run, like CM) and has good coverage in Energy Ball and Ice Beam. Get this thing out of here.

kokoloko · Sep 5, 2014

Hawlucha | BL

I've seen many people comparing Hawlucha to Lucario, which I think is fine since both of them are great, especially with their mid-late game sweeping/cleaning role. However, what really differentiates Lucha is that it has a set of powerful STABs that literally cannot be resisted by anything other than Doublade and it has absolutely no need for priority moves since absolutely nothing, even at +1, outspeeds Lucha after it gets that Unburden boost, so barring other priority moves that can either cripple or KO Lucha, it can freely spam its high base power moves. Although there are certainly ways to play around Lucha after it nabs the Unburden boost, it's just too immense of a win-con and in turn, it should not stay in this tier.

Not gonna end this yet since I want to describe the set I believe is the most broken one, its SubSD set. Lucha can set up its Substitute on a plethora relevant threats like Krookodile/Cross/Rose/Mienshao/etc. and if they decide to switch out into something that a) isn't named Doublade, [infiltrator] Noivern, or Crobat before the Unburden boost, b) can't phase Lucha out, or c) can't take +2 High Jump Kicks/Acrobatics, things look to get really ugly for the opponent's side lol. This imho really restricts team building since there's very few things that can at least barely check Lucha after the user clicks Substitute, and even then some of these checks won't even be useful if they have taken enough damage from other shit. Overall, this set causes Lucha to be an overcentralizing factor in teambuilding, and it is the primary reason why I'm voting it BL.

Is there any doubt? Lol. Just run 28 HP / 252 Atk / 228 Spe Adamant (or 4 more Spe EVs if you wanna outspeed neutral base 115s, but don't touch the HP) with Sub / SD / Acro / HJK at Sitrus and watch the opponent weep. Sitrus > Liechi because the ability to tank priority is more important generally than the extra power (at least for Adamant; Jolly needs some more support). It basically forces offensive teams to not get a kill with Mienshao / non-Zen Absol / Megahorn Hera / Krook / Hydra with D-meteor unless they have either CB Entei or a faster Infiltrator mon, lest they wanna lose right there. Anything less bulky than Victini dies to +2 Acrobatics, and those that resist it can't generally take HJK.
When I first built my SD Pass Celebi team (right at the start of Beta), I was using Sky Attack, which is why Celebi was helpful since it could make Lucha's life easier against offense by not having to tank a hit to set up, meaning I wouldn't die to most priority moves. However, after I started using SubSitrus, I realized most of the time Lucha didn't need the pass because it could hold its own pretty well due to Sitrus (Celebi did help my other receivers, obviously). That alone shows how good Luchamon is, since it can wreck teams without more support than softening up the stuff that could take a +2 hit—most of which either lacked reliable recovery or couldn't KO Lucha back.

People might wonder why I BL'd this while I voted UU for Hax and Volc, both of which could wreck an entire playstyle with the right set: well, the difference is that in order to do so, those two had to—in my opinion—run sets that made them completely worse against other types of teams, while not necessarily winning outright either—since defensive teams could fit something that outsped and KOed Hax and not be entirely worse, while offense could check Volc with a combination of priority and a mon that could be guaranteed to take a hit and KO back for the bulky set.
Luchamon, on the other hand, only really needed SubSitrus because it was still strong against defensive teams due to its ability to tank hits—not saying Sky Attack wasn't better against them, just that it didn't really need to use it to be strong against most playstyles. Hell, Alomomola couldn't even break its Subs with Scald, lol.

again, tried to vote UU, but NOPE. hawlucha basically has 106 and not 92 attack since it runs adamant, and the fact that its moves are ridiculously overpowered (one is a perfect acc, no drawback 110 flying move, while other is a 130 bp fighting move), STAB'd and have perfect coverage, this is an incredible sweeper. however, what makes it broken is that you cannot revenge kill it (it's faster than scarf ninjask lol). you can definitely stop it with physical walls, but if hawlucha gets one single turn vs an offensive team, which isn't that hard at all given its pretty good typing, it's literally game over, and i don't like mons that single-handedly 6-0 an entire team archetype.

This thing does have some viable counters such as Slowbro and Psychic Mew, but it puts too much pressure on the opponent to keep those things healthy unless they want to get swept. Of course, not all teams run the few counters that Hawlucha has, and I have seem some people run Protect on Pokemon such as Ampharos pretty much exclusively for Hawlucha. The amount of things one needs to do in order for Hawlucha to sweep against offensive teams is dangerously low, usually limited to setting up Stealth Rocks and breaking Alakazam's Focus Sash. It's typing is excellent and allows it to set up easily on the large amounts of Dark- and Fighting-type moves flying around in the tier. Its main flaw is that it usually only gets one chance to sweep, but it does it consistently enough and makes the metagame even more centalized.

my opinion on this little fuck hasnt changed from beta; it sets up on both offensive and defensive playstyles, particularly on stuff like Hera, Krook, Blissey, non-Psychic stab Mew, Mola, etc. Its best set is obviously the SubSD one, being able to tank hits from stuff such as the aformentioned Mola, and thanks to the sub, removes a large portion of its offensive checks in the process (zam, fletch) if it can manage to keep its Sub up and have the Unburden boost, which honestly is very easy to do, and requires very little team support to function well. It gets free turns very easily and is too big of a factor in teambuilding, so I'm voting for this shit to go.

Very little checks/counters, great dual stabs, unburden, and access to SD compliments lucha's already good stats and takes him to the next level where lucha becomes too much to handle for uu. Really the only knock on lucha is that he is rather frail and only really gets one chance to sweep, albeit that one chance is all it needs to win the game a good amount of the time.

Finds easy set up opportunities, spams strong as shit STAB and outspeeds the entire BOOSTED metagame. Really it might have a few counters but like half of them arent even viable/can't do anything back. It also smashes offense people have already mentioned and although it only really has one opportunity, a well played Hawlucha is almost ALWAYS going to sweep late game and while the same can be said about Lucario, I don't think that the argument (but fletch is the counter) is a very solid answer of how you can offensively check it and if that's the limits of what can offensively check it, well I think it might be time to say goodbye to fighting bird.

The problem with hawlucha is that it is nearly impossible to stop once its sweep starts. Due to its insane speed after an unburden boost, it's impossible to revenge kill it with faster mons. It must either be stopped with priority (for which it resists Sucker Punch) or with defense. With defense, it does have some viable checks in Mega Ampharos and Slowbro, among others. However, there are very very few things offense can do against Hawlucha. Much like Manaphy, the only way to really deal with Hawlucha is to prevent it from setting up. However, given the fact that Hawlucha can set up on Heracross, Krook, Mienshao, Mega Absol, and Scarf Hydrei, among others, means that often times Hawlucha will get a chance to set up. Against more HO-oriented teams, Hawlucha might not even need the SD - it can get the job done with Unburden alone. Despite that fact that it has checks, Hawlucha's ability to effortlessly sweep offense definitely makes it BL.

This thing just has no viable, real counters. Only full stops are niche stuff like Doublade. It's typing is good both defensively and offensively, allowing it to set up and sweep with ease. While base 92 might not seem much, it gets the job done when you have two high powered STAB moves like High Jump Kick and Acrobatics that hit the whole tier neutral at least. Unburden makes it impossible to revenge kill by outspeeding it, and priority is scarce in UU.

counters are niche, otherwise crap, or unreliable. sweeps the entire tier with very little set-up, and finds set-up opportunities against a slew of offensive and defensive pokes. Anything common that can claim to check it (slowbro and mega amph and hippo and stuff) don't exactly enjoy taking its attacks, and they will lose to a slight amount of prior damage. Even if they were solid counters though, hawlucha is still way too much of a headache for offense. I'm keeping this short because i've already talked about this a lot in other places, so yeah.

Is twat.

Its speed stat is sky high above the entire tier sans literally a handful of Pokes, and it has great base power and typing on its STABs to easily make the most of its sweep. Brilliant defensive typing also lets it set up on any playstyle, meaning it is never dead weight, and almost always secures its sweep. Although I've been wanting to use a Dark resist that is faster than Mega Absol, as well as a hard Hera counter (even though it's leaving), this thing is just clearly too good for the tier.

Calloflochie · Sep 17, 2014

Result of September Drops:

Geomancy: 11 BL | 1 UU | BL
Smeargle: 10 BL | 2 UU | BL
Togekiss: 7 BL | 5 UU | BL
Victini: 7 BL | 5 UU | BL

kokoloko, Calloflochie, Ernesto, FLCL, Bouffalant , Nas , Kitten Milk, dingbat , namehtmas , Meru, radianthero156, Royalty were the individuals that voted.

That is all :]

Calloflochie · Oct 6, 2014

Smeargle | BL

consistency is irrelevant when the suspect in question completely removes skill from the equation. granted, its not smeargle's fault that denispass is the single most linear algorithm ever used as a pokemon strategy, but it is the centerpiece, and therefore deserves the banhammer.

Never voted.

Abstain because I haven't faced Smeargle at all, and god knows I'm not gonna run denisssspass. I still think non-Geomancy variants are cancer, but without evidence I'm not in any place to decide.

unless i've forgotten something, smeargle essentially has 4 key sets: hazard lead (good for the metagame), geopass (terrible for the metagame), smashpass (controversial) and quiverpass (controversial). as geomancy is banned, smeargle is only broken if smash/quiver passes are broken. however, i disagree with that. firstly, smashpass; if it was that broken, then gorebyss would already have been banned, since it does the same thing with more bulk and a way better typing. i know it doesn't get spore/dvoid, but it's still relatively easy to play around those sleeping moves. quiver pass is more controversial, but, as far as blissey and phazers are concerned, still counterable. espeon causes trouble to both, but that is easily dealt with a strong crunch/knock off user that can survive a dazzling gleam, or a strong sucker punch user, or any physical bug with good special defense like escavalier (as long as you play cleverly and don't allow them to gather multiple boosts).

it doesn't get geomancy and the closest thing to broken it can do otherwise is smashpass but that's still terrible and done better by gorebyss IMO

quiver and smash pass are pretty much the same levels of cancer that geopass was, pretty much requires a direct counter to beat it. sure, not a lot of the people using it are exactly..good, and it's sort of dependent on matchup, but it definitely requires little to no skill, and the playstyle pretty much removes any aspect of competitiveness.

Paragraph will come eventually

Smeargle is still as degenerate as it was with geomancy. Smash/quiverpassing being less powerful than geopassing is irrelevent when the fundamental issue still exists; the strategy relies on team matchup more than anything and removes skill as a factor entirely.

the problem is more on denispass than smeargle itself. However, given the Smeargle is probably the cornerstone of this strategy (though an argument could be made for Espeon), banning Smeargle is the best course of action to take. Denispass is just way too linear and relies solely on team matchup, taking basically all skill out of the equation (and the stuff that beats it being rather niche doesn't help, either)

quiver pass + smash pass + sg pass with sp espeon are still broken in the same way that geomancy was, just to a lesser extent. smeargle still adds nothing to the tier other than an alternate sticky web lead, and I don't think this is enough to justify keeping around a shit + still viable playstyle that can be used in tournaments by people with no actual knowledge of the tier. it is essentially uncounterable unless you're running the right shit - and even though it probably will only win 40% of the time vs competent players, that 40% isn't due to them playing badly or even having a bad team. does more harm than good.

Quiverpass and Smashpass are still just as cancer. Sure they require a lot of support, but they effectively abuse that support to make near perfect teams for the level of power in the Underused tier. Nothing about this Pokemon inspires skill or predictions, just sheer match ups that can destroy teams that don't carry very specific counters.

Calloflochie · Oct 6, 2014

Victini | BL

Posted in the thread about how Victini has 0 Switch ins, Post is HERE

the ability to nuke anything with one move is absurd enough as it is, but what really pushes it over the edge is that 1. it has all the right coverage to beat anything that can reliably tank v-create, 2. its stat distribution makes it fast/bulky enough to beat pretty much everything. the couple of weeks we had without victini were the best metagame we've seen as of yet, imo.

It's not so much V-Create that's broken since LO Darm can also fire its way through things with stronger intensity; it's Tini's extensive versatility on its coverage moves that push it a little over the edge. Although its defensive typing leaves it vulnerable to rocks and all those traps and shit out there, the fact that there are absolutely no counters to Tini (sometimes even after the set is revealed!), combined with Tini's good speed tier and bulk that many players underestimate. Sure, a good player can usually navigate his/her way around Victini in a battle, but for the most part, it just puts too much pressure on opposing teams, and IMO its weaknesses don't really compensate enough for its unhealthy characteristics.

Will edit later.

its v-create is stronger than kyurem-b's outrage. enough.

can't rly say much ironbullet and koko didnt cover, but basically choice band v-create nukes nearly anything that doesn't resist it, both on offensive and defensive teams, and the few things that can switch into cb v-create without fear are at risk of being lured in by mixtini, which shits on a good portion if not all of its common answers, and has the bulk and speed to tank a good amount of hits, even with its sr weakness and somewhat shit defensive typing.

Great stat distribution, amazing move coverage, set versatility, and V-Create. The thing is just too powerful.

20:47 Nas we have more counters to kyogre than we do to victini
20:47 Nas interesting

Victini lacks the drawbacks that balance most other "wallbreakers" in my opinion, those usually being frailty, low speed, lack of coverage, etc. Also, with Slowbro leaving the tier we lost the most reliable switch-in to Victini, which is just further reason to ban it.

this was a pretty tough one for me. the fact of the matter is, victini's mixed set has no real counters. not having counters has never been a complete reason for banning, but victini is also extensively difficult to check. its coverage allows it to get past things that can take a v-create, while it isn't easy for offense to take it out due to its above average bulk and speed. these strengths set it apart from other wallbreakers in the tier, to the point where I would consider it broken.

I went into this thinking it wasn't broken but yeah... this checks damn near everything slower than it, and checks it with a huge ass nuke. It KOs CB Krook through Intimidate without even using a SE move, which is nothing short of straight up disgusting. The speed drop is a huge con about Victini, but at the same time, pretty much nothing but Flash Fire users can cleanly set up on CB V-create and Mega Doom/Chand aren't that amazing right now. Pursuit is also an issue, but with Luke being the best 'mon in the tier, along with it generally being an inferior moveslot on most non-choiced 'mons, it's hardly enough to sway the decision. On top of all of this, it has good bulk to live plenty of attacks, even after SR, making it much different from Darmanitan.

kokoloko · Oct 27, 2014

Togekiss | BL

nasty set versatility and typing combined with serene grace is just too powerful for uu. Like most threats, you need dedicated checks for this thing but the difference here us that toge's checks are relatively easy to remove. Nasty plot is what really pushes it over the edge for me tbh

Nasty Plot in tandem with Serene Grace flinching makes it pretty much impossible for slower teams to handle while it has the typing, bulk, recovery, and just enough power to lay the hurt on offensive teams and easily weaken its own checks. On top of that, a lot of its best counters are Pursuit or Dugtrio trappable. Rotom-H and Mega Aggron are two cool new metagame trends that both can't be trapped, but the former is SR weak and thus an unreliable answer, while the latter can succumb to one flinch + coverage, or even just two flinches, while also needing Wish recovery to even stick around. Overall, the answers are just too shaky for this thing to stay in the tier.

By virtue of its typing, movepool, stat distribution and ability it finds itself being basically perfect in every situation. Against Defensive teams it can actually flinch down basically every single Pokemon unless they're running 100 Speed Jirachi or Taunt Stone Edge Mega Aero. Against Offense, Thunder Wave and Flying STAB + Coverage moves make it very hard to switch into. Rotom-H is basically the only thing that can switch into it and even then, switching in on SR + Air Slash wipes 50% from Offensive Rotom-H, a pretty solid counter imo n_n As for stuff it stops, Standard Choice Scarf Hydreigon is walled by it, Mienshao can't spam HJK with it around, Krook's dual STAB is basically useless, Mega Absol needs Iron Tail to get through it, Haxorus is forced to run a 3rd move and choose between DD and SD. And this is all for ONE POKEMON, forcing an entire metagame to shift to deal with a single Pokemon is stupid, it's not a matter of 'adapting', it's a matter of realising that Togekiss is extremely overcentralising and forces you to give up move slots specifically to deal with it. The 'Togekiss can't run every set' is a shit argument too because it doesn't mean that it will do everything for a team, it means it can easily be adjusted to do whatever a team requires, similar to how BW RU Druddigon played. No team got worse adding a Drudd, the same can be said for Togekiss, it has the capability to perform basically any role you want so if you don't call that broken, that's fine by me, but Togekiss is without a shadow of a doubt in my mind, meant to be BL.

stuff

Great typing, a plethora of sets and the ability to flinch its way past what would otherwise be hard counters make Togekiss too powerful for UU. It has particular sets that dominate whole playstyles. For example stall finds itself helpless against its Heal Bell + Nasty Plot set unless it runs Pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl or a Jirachi significantly invested in speed, which are two Pokemon almost never found on stall teams. So Togekiss is essentially forcing an entire playstyle to run specific Pokemon with specific sets to deal with a single opposing Pokemon. Now if this is not over-centralising I don't know what is.

Against offense, its T-Wave + NP set is just too overpowering. It can simply T-Wave and flinch to death otherwise hard checks like Jirachi and Mega Aggron, while Ground-types immune to T-Wave are destroyed by Air Slash. Add to this its very good bulk and Roost which means that if somehow its checks happen to get a hit off on it in the middle of paraflinching, it can survive and simply Roost to fish for a full paralysis, after which it resumes Air Slash spam. Only Electric types faster than Togekiss can actually switch into this set and beat it every time. So there are just a couple of Pokemon who can reliably deal with Togekiss, namely Raikou and Rotom-H. Rotom-H is weak to Stealth Rock and its standard offensive set takes 25-30% from Air Slash meaning half its health is shaved off upon simply switching in. So it is essentially limited to a single switch in. Also a Specs Volt Switch does not even come close to OHKOing Togekiss, meaning it can just Roost off the damage. Defensive versions usually do not run enough speed for Togekiss, so they are again in danger of being flinched to death. They are also significantly weaker than offensive versions, in fact Thunderbolt barely 2HKOs. So offense pretty much has only one reliable switch-in to this set, and that is Raikou. Not to mention the fact that being forced to attack Togekiss with an Electric-type move grants Grounds a free switch-in. Also, a lot of Pokemon regularly found on offense are forced to run a steel- or poison-type coverage move simply to have any hope of beating it, another example of how an entire playstyle is forced to run specific moves or sets to deal with it.

And this is not even considering sets that run coverage moves such as Fire Blast and Aura Sphere which completely eliminate steels as even semi-reliable switch-ins. Rotom-H and Raikou both take a truckload from Aura Sphere, making them even shakier switch-ins. It's exactly as Lochie said, it's not a matter of adapting, it's a matter of realising Togekiss is indeed too overcentralising. Any Pokemon that does not outspeed Togekiss is in danger of being flinched to death, while Pokemon that do outspeed it can be paralyzed. Combined para + flinch give the opposing Pokemon little hope of beating it. Jirachi can of course do this as well, but there are several clear advantages that Togekiss has that set it head and shoulders above it: superior typing, Roost, and Nasty Plot which enhances its main weapon to destructive levels.

So for me, Togekiss is definitely BL.

I don't really buy in to the versatility argument, so I'm not going to look to that as a reason to ban. What it really comes down to is whether or not the np set is broken. While it is a very good set and toge is a very good mon, I dont think its something broken. While it has the capacity to wreck stall and defense, that's not uncommon for some mons in the tier (hax, lcx). While toge also performs well against offense, it has its fair share of checks. On top of that, though it has the capacity to be a full stop to some common mons, those mons can also adjust to toge. This, in addition to SR weakness, means toge can find itself underwhelming against offense and not as overpowering as first perceived. Its a very good mon and perhaps close to broken, but I don't think it quite crosses that threshold

ok yeah this is gonna seem weird because i was 100% convinced toge was broken but the more i play with/against it, the less broken it seems.
i'm kinda forced to vote BL due to my own "if unsure, vote BL" rule, but i'm really torn on it tbh. on paper its stupid, but i've been using the same few teams with it around and they're not bad. small adaptations help a lot: stone edge>superpower on cb krook, ice punch on luke, faster nido, pjab haxo, steel move hydrei--these aren't tier breaking alterations, they're just regular metagame evolution. now if you'd be forced to run absolute garbo in order to not lose to something, that's bad, but i don't think that's the case here. raikou is actually a really solid pkmn idk what people are smoking tbh. rotom isn't terrible, though if it was the most solid answer i'd be iffier.

while yes its true that anything slower than toge is immediately disqualified as a check, toge isn't all that fast even if it goes max timid, and if it happens to do so, it becomes a lot less bulky.

anyway we'll do another test on toge after ORAS.

I've been really on the fence about Togekiss. I understand both arguments and have been back and forth in my head about whether or not to vote ban on Togekiss. Now, although I've been conflicted, I'm gonna say it should stay in UU.
Togekiss' finch rate allows it to beat some of its checks, such as Aggron. This is the main problem with walling the nasty plot sets. Togekiss has 2 nasty plot sets that it can run: defensively oriented sets with Roost and heal bell/twave, or offensive variants with Fire Blast/Aura Sphere. Both sets have particular counters, and some pokemon (Raikou) check both variants of Togekiss. Mono-attacking sets are bound to get walled by a list of pokemon. Rhyperior, Mega Aerodactyl, Aggron, Metagross, Bronzong, Magneton, Mega Ampharos, and Raikou all have little trouble dealing with the mono-attacking sets. The offensive set is still walled by Raikou and Ampharos, and suffers because it's susceptible to status, not bulky enough to take repeated hits, and can't paralyze Pokemon faster than it.

I don't think any other sets are in question here. The next-best things Togekiss can run are defog and Choice Scarf. Choice scarf is barely viable, and is very easy to wear down, as well as being outsped by almost all other scarfers. Defog is really nice, however its utility isn't anything too powerful for the tier, and it isn't offensively threatening.

kokoloko · Nov 7, 2014

Zygarde | UU

Zygarde is definitely one of the hardest Pokemon to play around due to the combination of its sheer bulk and its sets being countered by different things, but one thing that always works against it is a simple Ice Beam bulky water. A moveswet tweak on something that could actually use the coverage isn't over-centralizing. This isn't to mention the few other--less conventional--ways of dealing with it such as Toxic Spikes, Whimsicott, Tangrowth, Roar Granbull, Infiltrator Noivern/Chandelure, and Just general Choice Scarf Pokemon for it's DD set (now if these were the only surefire ways, then yeah I'd call it BL).

On top of that, Zygarde has thing quirky quality in that it's extremely hit-or-miss. If I have a team with both a Flying-type/Levitate Pokemon and a Fairy, DD Zygarde isn't sweeping me any time soon.

To preface, Zygarde does force Pokemon to use coverage they wouldn't normally want to run, but the coverage still has uses outside of Zygarde e.g Ice Beam Cune hitting Whimsicott who has risen in popularity. Zygarde, however, while being incredibly bulky, finds itself in an awkward position in the current state of the metagame. With Pokemon such as Suicune and Vaporeon both being very popular, Zygarde can't even set up vs the Pokemon it used to set up on back when it was allowed early in XY UU. Zygarde also faces the unfortunate circumstance of being too weak and too slow without set up, but also not being able to set up enough to do significant damage for the team (whether it be beaten by aforementioned bulky waters or Infiltrator mons such as Noivern, Whimsicott and to an extent Toxic Crobat), or being subject to being worn down through Toxic Spikes (another popular trend). Basically, Zygarde still possesses all the fantastic traits that it did in early UU but as the metagame has been sculpted without Zygarde, the introduction of Zygarde hasn't really put a damper on anything and rather, Zygarde becomes more of a liability to teams due to the support it requires to do what it once could by itself.

Although the consensus on Zygarde has already been made, I'm sticking to my guns in my vote. Zygarde has great 108/121/95 bulk, and finds many easy opportunities to set up. Zygarde also has near-perfect offensive typing and the ability to sweep using Coil or Dragon Dance against most playstyles, making it unhealthy for UU in my opinion. Zygarde's Achilles heel is that its base 100 attack and base 95 speed tend to be less-than optimal for sweeping with dragon dance, and coil Zygarde can find itself completely useless against certain teams. I think that Zygarde's great bulk and easy set-up opportunities overshadow these flaws, however, and I think Zygarde should remain banned from UU.

This is actually my first UU vote, but you gotta be honest and say that none of its sets are overwhelming the tier. DD sets are easily revenged, and due to its low low base 100 attack, it actually misses out on a plethora of KOs. Any KOs that it can muster up, it usually relies on Outrage to get, which also makes you more revengable.

So obviously the DD sets aren't the problem, but SubCoil isn't exactly dominating the tier either. It plays pretty similarly to Suicune, but Zygarde lacks the longevity of Suicune, in exchange for being slightly "harder to stop".

However, the tier has changed since Zygarde was last here, and I think the np thread is right in saying that Zygarde's previous broken-ness is closely tied to Victini being in the tier, as now that the fire pixie isn't nuking everything below its 100 base speed tier, lots of bulky offensive mons that are dominant right now can easily take on Zygarde. On top of this, Whimsicott is pretty damn good right now, and poses a hard stop to any Zygarde set, but especially SubCoil Zygarde. Overall it's a very good addition, and it will have some rippling effects on the metagame, but to say it's overcentralizing the metagame is hardly true.

Ziggy is definitely not as big an offender to defensive playstyles as it might've been before. Outside of the obvious T-Spikes rising in popularity that keep it in check, the fact that Slowbro left means that teams are choosing other ways of handling Cune that don't really conflict with Ziggy checking (nice jab at LL imo :P). In this particular scenario I still find it hard to believe Stall is even close to being as viable as balance/BO/Offense what with Hax and MegaZam being around—you're practically forced to run either niche checks or Scarf Hydra to not get completely rekt—I don't really think having to run P2 or a random IB bulky Water-type as that big a compromise. Offensive teams can still handle the SubCoil set by pure pressure, depending on the Speed EVs by more or less threats, and the DD set is checked by similar stuff to Hax, with the obvious biggest difference being you have to keep your check healthy enough to tank a +1 ESpeed. If we accepted bigger compromises for defensive teams with other threats, I don't see why we couldn't do that here; Ziggy isn't close to being as lethal as Hawlucha was against different playstyles with just one set (I know the comparison sucks, but no BL Poke is really comparable anyway), so even if it can destroy teams with support, I don't see it at the same level as other setup sweepers. Seems UU is fair for it, at least before it gets all those new moves.

I found it progressively tougher to play it the way I had played it throughout the test, and I feel that it is definitely the result of this metagame being totally ready for it. Unlike Manaphy, where offensive pressure and statuses (poison/burn) definitely weren't enough to keep it from setting up Tail Glows half of the time and smashing through every single team archetype, Zygarde was definitely a lot more manageable. There are clearly defined checks and counters, and the fact that it cannot afford to run Rest because it has no moveslots to do so just makes it that much more vulnerable to status, which is really damn huge. IMO, it'll definitely be a defining force in this metagame as it still has plenty of opportunities to set up on shit and is capable of outspeeding specific threats even on its SubCoil set, but at this stage of this metagame, it's not broken anymore.

None of its sets are that dominating. Consider the DD set. Its attack stat is rather underwhelming and at +1 it is still easily outsped and revenged by numerous Pokemon, in particular Scarf Hydreigon who is probably the most popular scarfer in the tier at the moment. Earthquake is a solid STAB attack but the fact remains that it pretty much depends on Outrage to hit everything that Earthquake can't hit, which is quite a lot considering all the Flyers and Levitators in the tier. This is because its ExtremeSpeed is pitifully weak, hence it must use Outrage leaving Zygarde very susceptible to revenge killing. Take for example Noivern. Ziggy has no choice but to use Outrage as ExtremeSpeed fails to KO, which makes it easy prey to Steels, Fairies or Ice attacks once its locked in. I also tested out the ChestoRest set but this makes it even more reliant on Outrage which makes it more of a hindrance than a weapon. Essentially its lack of a reliable Dragon type STAB is a huge liability which prevents the DD set from being too dangerous.

SubCoil is not overwhelming either. It does not get a free set up vs standard offense due to how much more offensively inclined the metagame has become. For example it just falls flat against a standard core of queen/megastoise/hydrei. Even when facing defensive teams there are plenty of viable checks to it. Aromatisse and Florges are staples of such teams and they are hard stops to this set due to its lack of power. It is also not that big of a deal for a bulky water to run Ice Beam, it is still a useful move overall for its ability to hit Grass types and Hydreigon. Some of them like Swampert or Blastoise don't even mind running it. Ice Beam is also commonly found on Suicune who is another great check to Ziggy. But the Pokemon that I think that has really kept this set from having any dominating effect is Whimsicott. It has really risen in effectiveness over the last few weeks and its standard Encore + Moonblast set completely shuts down SubCoil Ziggy, and even offensive Ziggy with ExtremeSpeed if it is physically defensive. And then there's the fact of its lack in power: it does not cause much damage at all until it has boosted up to +2 or even +3.

I feel that Zygarde has in fact had a positive impact on the metagame and that it has fit into the tier quite well. So UU it is for me.

While I think Zygarde is a great mon, I haven't found it to be overwhelming or restrictive (with regards to teambuilding) to the extent I look for in a BL, so I'm going to vote UU. Base 95 Speed isn't great for a DDer in this tier, as it can easily be revenge killed by common scarfers at +1, while failing to OHKO several important threats at +1 due to its average Attack stat. Subcoil is inconsistent, and its usefulness is usually heavily dependent on the type of team your opponent is using. Against Offense and Balance, it struggles to find setup opportunities and can end up being deadweight.

Although Zygarde is a very good mon, I think it falls short on a few fronts that make it not broken. Mainly, both of its main sets (DD and SubCoil) tend to have subpar performance against offensive teams. While Zygarde has great bulk and can generally just up a Dragon Dance, it just doesn't hit hard enough to easily tear through offense. It can with multiple boosts, but preventing Zygarde from getting multiple DDs isn't too much trouble for offensive teams. SubCoil, running a bulkier spread, is even weaker than DD and has the same issues against offense. While SubCoil can single handedly 6-0 some defensive teams, this can be mitigated by running Ice Beam on some bulky waters. Although this is suboptimal for most of those bulky waters, it really isn't centralizing enough to send Zygare to BL.

Zygarde is undoubtedly a dominant force in the current metagame, and it's really a great wincon for Bulky Offense, Balance, and even Stall (shoutout to Bob ;] ), but Zygarde has a fair amount of factors which put a damper on it. Like a lot of others have said, Dragon Dance sets don't really hit hard enough to do a huge chunk of damage, even at +1, and its 95 speed lets it get outsped by Choice Scarfers like Hydreigon and Mienshao, which are as common as ever in the current metagame, and don't do enough damage to defensive teams. SubCoil sets prove to be much more difficult for Balance and Stall to face, but even then they can carry good checks to it, like IB bulky waters like Pert (which while not that good, isn't really overcentralizing), as well as Florges, and Aromatisse. It doesn't do so well against more offensive teams as well, as they provide much more direct checks for Zygarde, like the aformentioned Hydreigon. Finally, a lot of trends in the metagame, such as the Toxic Spike teams that Ernesto mentioned, Offensive Whimsicott, and Ice Beam variants of Suicune all are annoying for Zygarde to face, especially TSpikes. It's not as good as it was before, and is a welcome addition to the tier imo.

-------

Junior Council votes (don't count unless Senior Council members abstain or don't vote)

While Zygarde is a mon that can set up on a plethora of pokemon on bulkier teams such as Alomomola and Gligar, it's underwhelming stats and mediocre speed are just not something that is pushing it over the UU line. The Sub Coil set, arguably it's most threatening set, fails to set up on standard offense which carries Offensive Nidoqueen/Scarf Hydreigon/Sash Alakazam while also failing to beat defensive florges and aromatise on stall teams. The dragon dance set is easily outsped and revenge killed by Choice Scarf Hydreigon and with a weak +1 Extreme Speed barely making a dent and being completely outclassed by DD/SD Haxorus who also has a move to hit fairies, it is just lack luster. Whimsicott has risen in usage since the Victini ban and all sets completely stop Zygarde in its tracks. Even with Togekiss, it's best counter, being banned Zygarde still does not have that offensive or defensive presence that makes it "broken." The UU Metagame has long since developed since the original ban of Zygarde. I welcome it with open arms. :]

Zygarde is simply too effective at what it does. It is remarkably easy to set up sub-coil on the majority of the tier, and without any reliable form of ice shard in the tier, even the easier dragon dance set is troublesome due to its sheer bulk. This creates a centralizing effect where people specifically need to bring mons and gimmicks (like infiltrator specs chandy) to only partially wallbreak Zygarde's impressive defensive stats. Overall, this is not a mon that I believe is healthy for the tier. Access to extreme speed makes Zygarde even more of a threat, as it can also take on a revenge killer role on top of its sweeper/defensive roles, while sometimes overlapping these roles, resulting in a mon that can dance with the majority of the tier. Even if we stand Zygarde up to the current S rank mons, only Hydreigon has any chance of stopping it... but seeing the number of zygarde blissey aloma cores gave me a headache.

As much as the metagame has shifted towards a more offensive playing style, the versatility of Zygarde allows it to exploit the nature of the current meta by utilizing standard stall cores that render popular and pertinent strategies impotent. The metagame shouldn't be so heavily affected by the inclusion of one mon, yet it has been. I can't justify letting stall come back with such a force. Back to the BL dungeon, green giant.

i've tried both a coil and offensive dd set and honestly it's been too weak to make a significant impact. it has a lot of viable counters and checks, such as suicune, swampert, hippowdon, mega aggron, whimsicott, and cloyster, and is outsped by common scarfers such as mienshao and hydreigon.

Up until now stall has been considered dead, and I think that it's it's hilariously ridiculous that a portion of the playerbase doesn't want to have to adapt to a revived playstyle. Zygarde isn't impossible to check, let alone counter. SubCoil variants without Stone Edge or Extreme Speed lose to Roar Hydreigon. Forretress can run Hidden Power Ice to help keep Zygarde from setting up on it (zero investment has a chance to break max SpDef Zygarde's Substitutes), Whimsicott is a full stop to any variant of Zygarde provided it doesn't switch in on a boosted Stone Edge or Extreme Speed. Infiltrator pokemon have their way with this thing: Noivern straight up smashes it, and Crobat can poison it if its behind a Substitute, Chandelure could run HP Ice and smash it. Variants without substitute are absolutely wrecked by Sableye and most other common status inducers. There are ways to not only check, but beat this thing 1v1 and it's not the insane monster people are making it out to be.

I ran as many possible variants as I could, and as everyone else may have noticed, SubCoil is it's flagship set. I've found it needs the Substitute to be effective, and it's either really good against the opposing team, or it's dead weight. Zygarde's unable to really take control of the game until its at about +2 or +3, and I just see there being way too much in it's way to truly be broken (as others have mentioned before me, there's a plethora of other checks, and it's seriously lacking some decent Dragon-type STAB, and it's just not strong enough).

While Zygarde isn't unbeatable like it once was, it still is a great force in the metagame that absolutely requires something to be run specifically for it. If you can't fit one of the bulky Fairy-types on your team, you have to run sets that have generally less utility. Also Zygarde gives the player using it the advantage most of the time because it is a set up sweeper that requires immediate reaction more so than anything else in the tier, this makes good prediction easier since your opponent can't let you set up and must switch in the check/counter right away. So while Zygarde doesn't particularly thrive in this type of metagame I still feel it is too overcentralizing for UU and it will probably become broken in the near future once the hype around countering dies down.

Kitten Milk and Royalty didn't vote, so aim and King UU's votes will count in their stead.

Calloflochie · Nov 26, 2014

Diggersby | BL

This one's kind of obvious by any standard. Between its two high powered STABs that provide near perfect coverage on their own save for a few niche mons, its not so terrible speed tier with Jolly (faster than Adamant Lucario is fine by me), access to STAB priority, and ability to wreck its common checks with semi-unconventional moves (Wild Charge) or sets (CB, Scarf), this thing is way too much for UU to handle. Just to give you an idea of how powerful this thing is, take a look at this:

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 147-173 (48.8 - 57.4%)

So it forces its most viable check to Roost and risk getting EQ'd next turn. Not to mention that with Life Orb (which is better imo) it can just Return + Quick Attack for a minimum of 73.6%... which means a Pretty Good chance of 2HKOing with just Stealth Rock. On top of that, this assumes Aero has already had a chance to Mega Evolve so zzzzzz...

Versatile, extremely powerful, access to both Speed and Attack boosting moves, near unresisted coverage, priority and surprisingly underrated bulk + typing considering it has 2 immunities and 85/77/77 isn't as much of a 'glass cannon' as people have made it out to be. Also, as people have noted, it does hit a really nice Speed for murdering the slow stuff it's meant too, while being able to outspeed basically the entire tier after an Agility. It basically has a lot of similar attributes that Crawdaunt has but trades off slightly less spammable STAB for more Speed and bulk which in bunny's case, definitely helps it. Pretty easy BL tbh.

I think if Diggersby settled, the main set in UU would be sd focus sash or maybe life orb. It has 2 great, near-unresisted STABs, both reaching 100 base power. On top of this, Diggersby has a 464 attack stat, letting it break most of the dominant physical walls in the tier. +2 Diggersby doesn't care about almost anything bulky, and finds a way to give offense trouble with its decent speed stat and access to STAB quick attack. With a focus sash, Diggersby can switch right on offensive pokemon like Mega Alakazam or Hydreigon and threaten them out with its monstrous power, or KO them abusing its sash. Diggersby can also use lum berry to stop one of its best checks, Sableye, or even normal gem to nab a KO at +2 on Suicune, Blastoise, Mienshao, Zygarde, or Swampert.

The only other mentionable sets are Choice Scarf and Banded. Choice band works similarly to the way Azumarril did in gen 5, attempting to pick off weakened offensive teams with its priority late-game; however, Diggersby has a much more powerful dual-stab, and a speed stat that allows it to outspeed the fastest walls (suicune), making it a nightmare for stall. It also has a great attribute, U-turn, which makes the scarf set frustrating to deal with, grabbing momentum off incoming checks.

Hell of a wallbreaker comparable to Darmanitan. Unlike Darmanitan, it resists SR, has amazing dual STABs, lacks recoil, has set-up moves to take advantage of the switches it forces, and as if this list could get any longer, it has STAB priority. Anything below its speed tier has to be brought in very carefully due to its immense power and anything above its speed tier has to make sure it creeps just to not get ploughed by the bunny. Forces the metagame to be extremely offensive, moreso than any suspect we've seen before.

Well, it's pretty clear that this is going to be BL soon (granted, most of the votes so far are from junior council), but I just wanna point out a really important detail Meru mentioned: anything naturally faster needs to make sure it's creeping. That way, for example, Adamant Luke isn't even guaranteed to RK a healthy Bunny because Jolly Bunny outspeeds by a mere one point—which is quite trolly. Additionally, the DoubleDance set trades priority for the ability to smack things that would generally work as checks, such as Timid Chandy, Jirachi, Hydreigon—you know the drill. While offense can still run Aqua Tail Mega Aero, NP Missy or Scarf Ape (Scarf Shao can't RK +2 Bunny o.O), and defensive teams can use fat Gourd or Chester (and obviously Sable for non-Lum, and Quag sorta for non-LO), along with defensive Mega Aero (which needs some prior damage to OHKO 4/0 versions), that's basically it without resorting to extremely niche mons EDIT: And Zong .–. . And that's not even mentioning the Choiced sets, which can take advantage of the few checks the other sets have to force switches and rack up damage with U-turn + Hazards. And unlike other offensive mons, it doesn't have a bad defensive typing (it's not good either, but it can at the very least switch into Electric-types) or particularly bad bulk.

When you see a wallbreaker like Diggersby, you might think to yourself, "Hmm 78 base speed is pretty meh, and so is its bulk. I can revenge kill/cripple this really easily." However, when you realize that a) it's still enough to set up on or flat up just murder/heavily damage a bunch of slow shit, and b) it actually has a Speed-boosting move or priority depending on your preference, speed is obviously not enough to be considered a huge flaw here.

Ridiculous wall-breaking capabilities, dual STABs offering amazing neutral coverage and its ability to run a variety of sets make this bunny too powerful for UU. The CB set essentially 2HKOs the whole tier barring a few niche switch-ins, and the fact that we need to delve very deep to find Pokemon who can reliably switch into this thing but are otherwise irrelevant in UU just shows how broken it actually is. Mazz is spot on with his comparison to Azumarill last gen: they have similar power but Diggersby is significantly faster and can use its STAB moves to outspeed and 2HKO bulky waters who try and switch in while Azu was outsped by them and had to rely on an unSTABed Double-Edge. It also gets U-turn to scout and wear down any of its switch-ins, making its CB set even more dangerous.

It also has the ability to run SD and Double Dance, so you could switch out expecting a CB-boosted move only for it to set up in your face and run through your team. In particular its boosting sets completely wreck stall thanks to its sky-high power added to the fact that it's immune to paralysis. And against offense, boosted Quick Attacks will make quick work of frail Pokemon. It is overcentralising in terms of its speed also, forcing its checks to run extra speed just to stand a chance of getting some damage against it. Overall, it is way too dominating and its sets destroy both offensive and defensive teams alike. Definitely BL for me.

Great offensive stats, access to two boosting moves and two 100bp STABs that provide excellent coverage, and STAB priority make this thing too powerful for the tier. Checks to this thing are so limited and the one's that do exist are pretty shitty outside of checking Diggersby. (Zong, Missy) It's also quite versatile in the number of sets it can run (CB, Scarf, SD, SD+Agility), making its checks very shaky and allowing it to dominate against pretty much every playstyle.

Near perfect coverage in 2 100 BP STABs coming off of a ridiculous attack. This one is pretty obvious. Decent speed, bulk allow it to get past most things and the things it can't get past are niche as hell (zong, missy). On top of all of this it has good boosting moves and priority, giving it a lot of versatility in what it can do. Pretty obvious one here, it just has way too much going for it. Easily dominates most of the meta and is way too powerful for UU.

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Junior Council votes (don't count unless Senior Council members abstain or don't vote)

The bunny is a monster. Its ability to overpower any bulky/balance team is incredible. The choice band set 2HK0's the entire tier and has 0 switch ins bar the pokemon i am forced to run such as gourgeist and trevenant. Even then they are worn down easily by the bunny. Some might say sableye is a check but SD Lum Diggers gets passed that as well. One problem with diggersby is not knowing what set it is running. You risk sending in a mon thinking it is choice locked as it sd's up and plows through your team. It is an overcentralizing mon that forces you to speed creep pokemon just to damage it before it knocks you out. A great stall breaker that forces a more offensive meta who can still be worn down by its priority. It sets up easily vs slower teams and vs offense it doesn't need to set up to do work. This bunny definitely deserves the ban.

Even I need to admit to the obvious on this one. Its fantastic wallbreaking abilities coupled with diverse sets and fantastic coverage give this poke all the tools to succeed. Customization is another feature of Diggersby; one can opt to hit different speed tiers and still manage to crush with the choice banded set. Diggersby has the potential to work on almost every model team, which is an interesting polarization to the fact that it demolishes any style it comes across. It's not that Diggersby is centralizing, it's that it prevents centralization... which is pretty similar to our assessment of Staraptor's abilities. What I mean by that statement is the following: when a mon is deemed "centralizing", that generally refers to building a team in order to defeat a mon because of it's over-powering nature, however, Diggersby prevents centralization due to the nature of it having too high of an attack power. It's not that teams need to centralize around Diggersby, it's that they need to be lucky that the opponent makes a stupid play, because it's nearly impossible to work around this mega-wallbreaker. One does not simply "prepare" for near perfect coverage, priority, and 696 insta-attack.

although it has limited chances to set up, diggersby's power allows it to force a lot of free turns, allowing it to sweep through most of the tier with ease. after a swords dance, diggersby does have some checks such as aerodactyl, jirachi, and chandelure, but none of them enjoy switching directly into this monster. it can even run a choice band set to hit hard right off the bat and scout for potential counters with u-turn. it's way too hard to stop and forces pokemon such as lucario, jirachi, and celebi to run an otherwise unnecessarily large amount of speed.

Aim covered a lot of the main points, and by doing so highlights why this vote is going to be mostly/entirely unanimous. Diggersby is extremely powerful, so powerful in fact it can afford to run a Jolly nature and not miss out on any major 2HKOs. I mentioned in the NP thread that Normal-type STAB wasn't nothing to really call home about, and I was wrong to do so. I lapsed and forgot to mention that Diggersby has STAB Earthquake, and when paired with a STAB Return, provides very solid coverage. The only Pokemon that can resist Diggersby's STAB combination are Bronzong, Mismagius, Haunter, Aerodactyl and its Mega counterpart, Shedinja, Rotom, Gourgeist, Trevenant, Lunatone, Solrock, and Archeops. Three of those are beaten down by Wild Charge, and only two of them (Aerodactyl / Mega-Aerodactyl and Trevenant) are relevant in UU. Diggersby also gets access to U-turn, only making its situation worse, as now it's able to provide momentum for its team and possibly have these checks removed.

When I first started testing Diggersby, I did my best to liken it to a very similar Pokemon we had last generation, Azumarill. Both played similarly, as both took advantage of Huge Power, and in my case, both utilized a Choice Band. What I quickly found however, is that Diggersby is naturally faster and stronger than Azumarill. Another advantage Diggersby had was its ability to get past bulky Water-types thanks to its ridiculously powerful Return - Suicune, Alomamola, Vaporeon, and other Water-types capable of beating Azumarill cannot switch-in on Diggersby, but must come in on a predicted switch or after something has died / slow-passed out. Despite enjoying using Diggersby, I cannot justify allowing Diggersby back into UU.

While Diggersby can be quite one dimensional compared to other suspects, it provides an insane amount of wall breaking power with little to no opportunity cost. The player using Diggersby is always at an advantage because of its immediate power with its dual stabs. Combine this with U-turn to scout for and wear down any of its switch ins with its Choice Band set and the ability to set up with its Swords Dance or DoubleBoosting sets and Diggersby is a Pokemon that you absolutely cannot afford to make mistakes against. The only way to counter it is with Pokemon that do not have a large niche in the metagame and are generally unviable without fully dedicated team support. All these factors combined contribute to Diggersby being broken in UU.

Giving Mazz the vote for this round for his very solid reasoning in place of Bouffalant.

Former XY/Early ORAS UU Tiering System / Voting Records

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