From Untiereds to Ubers

[Heavyweapons Mann]

No, the gaining STAB twice part.

 

[Fragmented]

I've been wanting to say this for a while, but Double STAB moves aren't really a thing. Flying Press is the closest and only example of 'Double STAB', but in reality it's just a Fighting-type move with Flying-type effectiveness as well.

Quoting from Bulbapedia, "Despite being a Fighting-type move, the damage dealt is actually a combination of Fighting and Flying types, and thus its effectiveness against a given Pokémon differs from other Fighting-type moves. However, for all other purposes, it is a Fighting-type move: only Fighting-type Pokémon can receive the same-type attack bonus on Flying Press, it is unaffected by items like the Sky Plate and Flying Gem, and it will not activate the target's Coba Berry."

There really isn't a thing as Double STAB moves, but I wouldn't mind a move which has two type effectivenesses but only gets STAB from a single type. Double STAB as a concept is hard to balance since theoretically it gives a 2.25x bonus to an otherwise weak move, which shouldn't be the case.

y'all don't read and it shows.

parting shot is when the mon insults the opponent as they leave. mr mime is a mime. this does not make sense.

you obviously never been insulted by a mime. part with these hands.

 

[G-Luke]

Everything doesn't need signature moves anyways. All this does is make the metagame ridiculous to code.

 

[Champion Leon]

i didnt say it was overpowered i said it was overcomplicated and unnecessary, you talk about keeping the code easy for scoopapa here's an example. you could easily just make it a 100 bp fairy move that drains 50% hp but naw it's gotta be flashy or something.


this is irrelevant - if its resisted it wont do that much damage in the first place. plus it's basically a grass type move that hits five typings se thats pretty dumb


parting shot is when the mon insults the opponent as they leave. mr mime is a mime. this does not make sense.
edit: its defined as a remark, so no hands here

Hide

It wasn’t my Pokemon to nominate, therefore it’s not my place to force out a new ability or move concept. He didn’t break any rules so I didn’t have to force it to be removed.

Scoopapa said we could make clones of prior winning submissions new moves/abilities/items / original equivalents, so that includes dual-type attacks coding all the way back from Tropius’ dual STAB several slates ago.

Additionally for Shiinotic, I posted above for him to weaken his original stats, thus it stays much lower than 600 and caps at BST (545) if he follows me advice.

As for the dual-type move, it is not irrelevant, as being single resisted doesn’t mean it won’t hit hard (think of Water Spout P-Kyogre), but being 4x resisted even by single types does mean it will likely not hit hard.

Other types hit 5 + types super effectively: Ground (Electric, Poison, Steel, Rick, Fire), Fighting (Dark, Steel, Normal, Rock, Ice), and don’t have to consider 4x resistances from a single-type Pokemon, that is the trade-off which keeps it balanced.

Also, Dragon is the most prominent type Fairy is used to hit, as it is a common type in Ubers, but losing that as a Dual STAB is a huge loss, new Pokemon with Sap Sipper is another roadblock.

Your narrative highlights how it is “super dumb” when referring to hitting 5 types super effective, which by your context means “too strong/too good”, which you said you didn’t mean.

So it’s not that it’s just a dual-type, it’s the number of Pokemon it hits, the effects, and the base power, which all contribute to how good/strong it is. So you can deny you didn’t mean it’s too power powered, but the rest of your points suggest that is exactly what you mean.

Forcing a Pokemon to use an ability to add a drain effect is already an opportunity cost than giving it a drain move, so it isn’t overpowered. Giving it the option of getting drain on any move is the real reason he probably didn’t want to just give it a 100 base power drain move. C’mon, it’s clear why he did it... all damaging moves.

Also, in regards to Mr. Mime, the only new move was the Wall-up Wallop, which I included at the top of my post, and therefore Parting Shot was apart of the original winning submission. Since you chose not to notice that, your point on Parting Shot is moot.

Also I reinforced that flavor/lore is not necessary, as we need to focus on what will improve viability. Since you also missed that, then you have no need to discuss Parting Shot.

Even if you needed to understand, the official Pokedex entry says:

With a parting threat, the user lowers the target's Attack and Sp. Atk stats. Then it switches with a party Pokémon

Mr. Mime: Mr. Mime is a master of pantomime. Its gestures and motions convince watchers that something unseeable actually exists. Once the watchers are convinced, the unseeable thing exists as if it were real.

No mention of verbal communication, it creates things out of nothing, and that parting shot could be what Mr. Mime convinced anything to believe.

didnt realize they didnt win my b

still, elj’s subs didnt need a buff, 165 refrige espeed is super dumb and so is 140/90/160 bulk with 150 spa ~150 bp 50% draining move (i really dont like double stab shit in general its just overcomplicated and unnecessary)

By acknowledging the base power of ~150 as part of the “super dumb” concept, listed alongside the base 150 SpA, and bulk you are saying it’s any or all of those which are overpowered, as either the individual base power or the draining effect, or the combination of both make it too strong.
I didn’t draw conclusions, I saw your point for what it is - “super dumb” power + stats + effect = overpowering.

Otherwise you would have only mentioned the dual stab nothing else as “super dumb”, or separating the drain effect + attack, and then it would make sense for you to say it’s only about being complicated. But you listed all the other things like base power and SpA stats to highlight you feel it’s too strong.

Lastly when you list Base Power, that usually assumes before STAB. So ~150 base power seems like it is using a really powerful attack, when in reality it’s only 5 base damage points stronger than Return. Let’s not list it as if it’s 150 before STAB.

——————
Topic closed, back to submissions.

 

[anaconja]

It wasn’t my Pokemon to nominate, therefore it’s not my place to force out a new ability or move concept. He didn’t break any rules so I didn’t have to force it to be removed.

youre the leader you can enforce any rule you want

As for the dual-type move, it is not irrelevant, as being single resisted doesn’t mean it won’t hit hard (think of Water Spout P-Kyogre),

oh yeah lets just forget about 180 spa and primordial sea here

Also, Dragon is the most prominent type Fairy is used to hit, as it is a common type in Ubers, but losing that as a Dual STAB is a huge loss, new Pokemon with Sap Sipper is another roadblock.

i suggested mono fairy that hits se
also only gogoat has sap sipper and never will use so who gives a shit about sap sipper

Your narrative highlights how it is “super dumb” when referring to hitting 5 types super effective, which by your context means “too strong/too good”, which you said you didn’t mean.

i meant in that context that you were downplaying double stab and either way do we really need more typings hitting 5 types se

So it’s not that it’s just a dual-type, it’s the number of Pokemon it hits, the effects, and the base power, which all contribute to how good/strong it is. So you can deny you didn’t mean it’s too power powered, but the rest of your points suggest that is exactly what you mean.

where the hell did this come from, i never mentioned effects (none) or the base power, i just said you could just have a 100 bp draining fairy move instead of GRASS FAIRY 70 BP MOVE AND ABILITY THAT DRAINS like whats the point of all this. if you want to hit water/ground/rock types you use grass move, if you want to hit dark/dragon/bug you use fairy move, don’t introduce some unnecessary dual stab move cause its “quirky” or something

Also, in regards to Mr. Mime, the only new move was the Wall-up Wallop, which I included at the top of my post, and therefore Parting Shot was apart of the original winning submission. Since you chose not to notice that, your point on Parting Shot is moot.

okay i noticed it now, am i not allowed to notice things

Even if you needed to understand, the official Pokedex entry says:

With a parting threat, the user lowers the target's Attack and Sp. Atk stats. Then it switches with a party Pokémon

Mr. Mime: Mr. Mime is a master of pantomime. Its gestures and motions convince watchers that something unseeable actually exists. Once the watchers are convinced, the unseeable thing exists as if it were real.

No mention of verbal communication, it creates things out of nothing, and that parting shot could be what Mr. Mime convinced anything to believe.

you conveniently ignored the animation of parting shot where silvally appears to swear at the opponent
also insult is different from “convincing of a threat”

By acknowledging the base power of ~150 as part of the “super dumb” concept, listed alongside the base 150 SpA, and bulk you are saying it’s any or all of those overpowered, as either the individual base power or the draining effect, or the combination of both.
I didn’t draw conclusions, I saw your point for what it is - “super dumb” power + stats + effect = overpowering.

you assumed base 150 spa and base power 150 were independent so in fact you did draw a conclusion

this double stab extends to politoed and poliwrath and others, can we stop subbing mons that rely on gimmicky bullshit and focus more on adding some kind of role compression or filling a niche

 

[Champion Leon]

didnt realize they didnt win my b

still, elj’s subs didnt need a buff, 165 refrige espeed is super dumb and so is 140/90/160 bulk with 150 spa ~150 bp 50% draining move (i really dont like double stab shit in general its just overcomplicated and unnecessary)

Hide

You literally mention the draining effect... that’s what I am referring to when i said effect.

youre the leader you can enforce any rule you want

oh yeah lets just forget about 180 spa and primordial sea here

i suggested mono fairy that hits se
also only gogoat has sap sipper and never will use so who gives a shit about sap sipper

i meant in that context that you were downplaying double stab and either way do we really need more typings hitting 5 types se

where the hell did this come from, i never mentioned effects (none) or the base power, i just said you could just have a 100 bp draining fairy move instead of GRASS FAIRY 70 BP MOVE AND ABILITY THAT DRAINS like whats the point of all this. if you want to hit water/ground/rock types you use grass move, if you want to hit dark/dragon/bug you use fairy move, don’t introduce some unnecessary dual stab move cause its “quirky” or something

okay i noticed it now, am i not allowed to notice things

you conveniently ignored the animation of parting shot where silvally appears to swear at the opponent
also insult is different from “convincing of a threat”

you assumed base 150 spa and base power 150 were independent so in fact you did draw a conclusion

this double stab extends to politoed and poliwrath and others, can we stop subbing mons that rely on gimmicky bullshit and focus more on adding some kind of role compression or filling a niche

I know I am the leader, but like I said, he didn’t break any rules... he did nothing wrong.

Shiinotic itself has Sap Sipper, and any other submission from any other slates you need to consider that we’re given it...

You literally said 150 BP, which literally means the BP and the SpA are not the same... otherwise you wouldn’t have specified BP for base power. I didn’t draw any conclusion, because you specified it as such. You literally said the 150 spa ~150 BP so that means you think it’s overpowered based on either one or both factors, which I already acknowledged as either being the case.

STOP derailing the thread.

 

[anaconja]

Shiinotic itself has Sap Sipper, and any other submission from any other slates you need to consider that we’re given it...

if you took the miniscule effort to look at the spreadsheet you would see that only gogoat has sap sipper
also who the fuck would use sap sipper shiinotic

You literally said 150 BP, which literally means the BP and the SpA are not the same... otherwise you wouldn’t have specified BP for base power. I didn’t draw any conclusion, because you specified it as such. You literally said the 150 spa ~150 BP so that means you think it’s overpowered based on either one or both factors, which I already acknowledged as either being the case.

you know what else i said? "with," which implies that 150 spa and 150 bp go together

 

[Champion Leon]

if you took the miniscule effort to look at the spreadsheet you would see that only gogoat has sap sipper
also who the fuck would use sap sipper shiinotic


you know what else i said? "with," which implies that 150 spa and 150 bp go together

Hide

You missed my point on how I said “and any other submission from any other slates you need to consider that we’re given it...”

That means any at all. Including any that people decide to buff here before the submission closes.

I don’t know who would use Sap Sipper as the preferred ability, including Gogoat, but I am just being thorough in acknowledging it is an ability that would stop it.

Also-
You are literally misquoting yourself:

“didnt realize they didnt win my b

still, elj’s subs didnt need a buff, 165 refrige espeed is super dumb and so is 140/90/160 bulk with 150 spa ~150 bp 50% draining move (i really dont like double stab shit in general its just overcomplicated and unnecessary)”

You said bulk with 150 SpA ~150 bp

The with is in regards to Bulk, there is no with between 150 SpA and ~150 bp, so bulk is with either 1 or both.

——————
Your semantics have derailed the thread, either post useful submissions and set feedbacks or stop posting if you cannot control yourself.

 

[anaconja]

You missed my point on how I said “and any other submission from any other slates you need to consider that we’re given it...”

That means any at all. Including any that people decide to buff here before the submission closes.

why would i take upcoming subs into account they dont even exist yet and thats assuming they win

The with is in regards to Bulk, there is no with between 150 SpA and ~150 bp.

with is a separator, it implies 140/90/160 bulk and 150 spa ~150 bp 50% draining move are different things, which also implies 150 spa ~150 bp 50% draining move is put together

if i wanted to have them separate i wouldve said 150 spa with ~150 bp 50% draining move

Your semantics have derailed the thread, either post useful submissions and set feedbacks or stop posting if you cannot control yourself.

i've posted both useful submissions and feedback and youre the one that started the fuckin semantics lol

 

[Champion Leon]

why would i take upcoming subs into account they dont even exist yet and thats assuming they win


with is a separator, it implies 140/90/160 bulk and 150 spa ~150 bp 50% draining move are different things, which also implies 150 spa ~150 bp 50% draining move is put together


i've posted both useful submissions and feedback and youre the one that started the fuckin semantics lol

Please discontinue to post in this thread. I have warned you on discord for the feedback you have given, and many people discussed it there and have brought to my attention what you have done to them. Believe it or not, but you have derailed the thread. You argue about “with” and that has no bearing to anything but a petty attempt to distract from the main points.

Hide

Lastly, aren’t we discussing Shiinotic in the first place?
Because you brought up the submission in the first place, so of course we should consider Shiinotic as well...

If you also gave advice on removing the draining ability, and using a drain move that means Sap Sipper has a higher likelihood of being used, as it already has a fairy move with a drain effect (according to what you would have done if it was your idea of a 100 BP Draining Fairy move). So no need for it’s other ability if it doesn’t need to use Effect Spore, if it relies on surviving non-contact special attacks...

I am advising you to leave this Thread if you cannot continue to stay on topic.

Just decide to exit - or if you go back on topic then I will allow you to post. Break this habit, it’s not beneficial.

 

[anaconja]

You argue about “with” and that has no bearing to anything but a petty attempt to distract from the main points.

you chose to argue your point that i suggested 150 spa 150 bp draining move was overpowered so that sounds like a you problem

If you also gave advice on removing the draining ability, and using a drain move that means Sap Sipper has a higher likelihood of being used

okay, you know what also happens? shiinotic hits the other shiinotic with fairy move with drain effect. what does sap sipper do here anymore

alright lets get back on topic

This got nerfed for absolutely reason, as even in its current state it is a B rank Pokémon at best. After the nerf it couldn't even get ranked.

i put it at b- rank im pretty sure
the problem with swalot is that poison typing is kinda bad in ubers with all the psychic and grounds running around (lunala, mewtwo, unecro, zygod, pdon, groundceus, etc.) and that it has a lack of good resistances. so i guess i would support a swalot buff, we would need to see how the big bulk does in the meta

solrock is kinda weird, i like that it does more though it does get walled by big zyg, waterceus/wailord, as well as it losing its niche in checking pdon (since it now gets hit by stone edge). then again that was its only niche so this is an improvement ig

Static Signal is a real pain to deal with if your defogger isn't immune to it (yveltal is not a defogger in my eyes). Rotom-Fan has more offensive presence but Pachi can whack stuff with +2 Tbolts lol.

you might've forgotten that ground types also remove static signal, so that includes pdon and zygod and groundceus and other ground-type subs. or maybe i misread it, it may have been ground types are just immune. don't remember atm.

Wall-Up Wallop - Psychic-type, 80 Base Power, 100% Accuracy, Special, 16 PP, - 1 Priority. Summons Light Screen or Reflect based the user’s lowest Defense (Baddy Bad/Glitzy Glow clone, with Photon Geyser‘s stat determinant for Defense. If equal then summons Reflect).

this sounds pretty inconsistent, id either add prankster for screens or reverse the boosts (which i find unnecessary cause it isnt gonna do much damage anyway) and make it fairy type

simipour buff is good
ledian buff is kinda weird, prankster bug/fighting sounds bad and dual screens is pretty outclassed by deo-s. focus on it being a physical wallbreaker imo.
maractus buff is equally weird, idk what im gonna do with a specially defensive grass/ground. maybe make it some speedy attacker? idk
agree on rapidash buff, 135 atk is good

 

[Champion Leon]

you chose to argue your point that i suggested 150 spa 150 bp draining move was overpowered so that sounds like a you problem


okay, you know what also happens? shiinotic hits the other shiinotic with fairy move with drain effect. what does sap sipper do here anymore

alright lets get back on topic

i put it at b- rank im pretty sure
the problem with swalot is that poison typing is kinda bad in ubers with all the psychic and grounds running around (lunala, mewtwo, unecro, zygod, pdon, groundceus, etc.) and that it has a lack of good resistances. so i guess i would support a swalot buff, we would need to see how the big bulk does in the meta

solrock is kinda weird, i like that it does more though it does get walled by big zyg, waterceus/wailord, as well as it losing its niche in checking pdon (since it now gets hit by stone edge). then again that was its only niche so this is an improvement ig


you might've forgotten that ground types also remove static signal, so that includes pdon and zygod and groundceus and other ground-type subs. or maybe i misread it, it may have been ground types are just immune. don't remember atm.


this sounds pretty inconsistent, id either add prankster for screens or reverse the boosts (which i find unnecessary cause it isnt gonna do much damage anyway) and make it fairy type

simipour buff is good
ledian buff is kinda weird, prankster bug/fighting sounds bad and dual screens is pretty outclassed by deo-s. focus on it being a physical wallbreaker imo.
maractus buff is equally weird, idk what im gonna do with a specially defensive grass/ground. maybe make it some speedy attacker? idk
agree on rapidash buff, 135 atk is good

Stop.

Hide

I already support his stat nerfing, and he already did the nerfs based on my suggestions... hours ago. I made it clear immediately a whole page ago, so I didn’t argue against lowering the stats on Shiinotic.

Plus it doesn’t use Sap Sipper for just one move, it uses it for the entire metagame that may use Grass-moves. Same for your Gogoat, If it was such a bad / useless ability, it would have not been one you wanted to include in your own submission.

It’s not a problem of mine, as I am the one resolving this topics and returning to the metagame post-

If you cannot handle staying on topic then stop coming to the thread. Again, if you cannot handle staying on topic, then stop coming to this thread. That is all.

————————
Now, to discuss submission itself...
————————
Mr. Mime: I will just make it a 100 base power Fairy move that always triggers Light Screen and make it’s SpA 115. Glitzy Glow clone with a bit more base power. I think it will be much easier to code and predict.

 

[かたわれ時]

Now, to discuss submission itself

I made Glowing Blast and Pixie Burst a move that only gains STAB once. I hope that’s fine.

Edit:

Hide

Now I don’t know what I did wrong, but i am not out to complicate anything, and I would listen to comments made. I have not broken any rules either (except the proxy post rule which I didn’t even know about and have stopped doing) and I don’t want to cause any trouble. That fine with you? Now let’s actually get back on topic already.

 

[Champion Leon]

I made Glowing Blast (and it’s other move) a move that only gains STAB once. I hope that’s fine.

Sure, if you decide to edit your post to reflect that, you can mention to treat it like Flying Press clone, if you wish.

Edit: You did nothing wrong, and that’s why I have defended you.

 

[War Incarnate]

Oh, good lord... what has Anaconja done? Also, OM!, I'm really busy right now, so I may not have time to update the spreadsheet.

Pokémon: Glaceon
Typing: Ice / Fairy
Abilities: Serene Grace / Glacial Precision
Glacial Precision: All moves that the pokemon with this ability uses or all moves that the opponent uses against you will never miss. Works just like No Guard.
Stats: 75 / 60 / 95 / 150 / 130 / 120 (630 BST)
New Moves: Moonblast, Dazzling Gleam, Nasty Plot, Focus Blast, Earth Power, Power Gem, Grass Knot
Competitive (niche in Ubers): Glaceon's niche in Ubers is that of a powerful offensive threat, carrying decently strong coverage as well as a rather powerful offensive typing, not to mention access to Nasty Plot to boost its already huge special attack. Its speed tier, while not the best, lets it outspeed key threats in Yveltal and Zygarde-C, while its decent array of coverage moves lets it pick what it wants to run and still be able to hit a decent amount of pokemon, like Earth Power for Dusk Mane Necrozma and Mega Gengar, or Grass Knot for Primal Kyogre and Arceus-Water, or even Focus Blast + Fightinium Z for a stupidly strong nuke to slam Blissey right in the face! You really cannot go wrong with your coverage, which is what makes Glaceon hard to defensively check. In spite of all this, Glaceon's defensive typing lets it down - not only does it still have its existing weaknesses to Stealth Rock, Primal Groudon, Simisage, and Marshadow, but its new Fairy typing adds a new weakness to Mega Gengar, as well as a quad weakness to Necrozma Dusk Mane. Moreover, Glaceon's speed tier is not as good as it wants to be, being outsped by key threats like Mega Gengar and Simisage, not to mention Deoxys-A, which, despite its decent bulk, will leave it easily KOed, especially considering how bad its typing is defensively.

Sample Sets

Glaceon @ Icium Z
Ability: Glacial Precision
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Blizzard
- Moonblast
- Earth Power

Glaceon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Glacial Precision
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Grass Knot

 

[alephgalactus]

New subs are up!

Jynx

Type: Ice/Psychic
Abilities: Neuroforce, Psychic Surge
85/50/95/135/115/120 - 600
New moves: Power Gem, Earth Power, Thunderbolt, Freeze-Dry

Competitive: Jynx can function as a setup sweeper with Nasty Plot, or you can put Specs on it for an all-out attacker set. Power Gem, Earth Power, Focus Blast and Freeze-Dry alone will hit most of the meta super-effectively, with further coverage in Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt, so Neuroforce sets can be very scary to face. Psychic Surge will boost Jynx’s Psychic-type STAB to massive levels, and giving it immunity to priority attacks lets it potentially beat out Pokémon that would otherwise be a problem for it, such as Sucker Punch Yveltal and Triage Parasect. However, faster Pokémon are a big problem for Jynx. Mega Gengar and Marshadow don’t appreciate switching in on anything except Focus Blast, but they can easily outspeed and revenge-kill it. Jynx also faces stiff competition from Ultra Necrozma, who also sports Neuroforce, is much faster, hits much harder, has better physical bulk, has a marginally better defensive typing, can switch into much more (especially if it’s in one of its prior forms), and can run physical, special, or mixed sets. Jynx, however, has better coverage than Ultra Necrozma and a much better offensive typing, plus it gets Nasty Plot, can hold an item, and can have Psychic Surge. Neuroforce sets are very scary to a lot of the meta, including some of its premier threats—Primal Groudon and grounded Steel-types are terrified of Earth Power; Freeze-Dry hits things like Primal Kyogre, Swanna, Wailord and Arceus-Ground; Thunderbolt eats most Water-types as well as Skarmory and Celesteela (but doesn’t have STAB or a chance to freeze and Ground-types can switch in on it); Power Gem destroys Ho-oh and Ninjask; and Focus Blast can 2HKO Chansey at +2.

Shuckle

Type: Bug/Rock
Abilities: Oblivious, Poison Heal
75/10/230/10/230/5 - 560
New moves: Defend Order, Heal Order, Whirlwind, Spikes

Competitive: I doubt there’s much to explain here. Same old Shuckle with some more HP, reliable recovery, phazing, another hazard and some useful Abilities. Oblivious prevents it from being taunted, one of Shuckle’s biggest weaknesses, so it doesn’t have to hold a Mental Herb just to get rocks and webs (and spikes) up. Poison Heal is for passive healing and Toxic immunity, which removes another one of Shuckle’s biggest weaknesses. Oblivious is more useful if you’re using Shuckle as a lead, while Poison Heal works best on the more passive stall sets. Shuckle does have some weaknesses, though. It still has a direct-damage output of basically zero, so you can pretty much wall it with anything that has recovery provided it’s immune to Toxic damage. It’s still usually setup bait, though you can use Whirlwind to troll people who try to set up in your face. It struggles against wallbreakers and setup sweepers if they have boosts up. And, of course, Shuckle must choose between losing to Taunt and losing to Toxic. All in all, though, Shuckle is one of the most versatile defensive Pokémon around, and it even works well as a lead on offensive and balance teams. You could run a hazard-stacking set with Stealth Rock, Sticky Web, Spikes and Whirlwind to deal chip damage and prevent your opponent from ever being able to set up; you could run a scumbag stall set with Defend Order, Heal Order, Toxic and Infestation; you could even run Oblivious Encore to act as a lure to Taunt users.

Marowak

Type: Ground/Rock
Ability: Huge Power
80/55/150/50/80/90 - 505
New moves: Head Smash, Shadow Bone
Removed moves: Swords Dance, Focus Energy, Laser Focus, Curse, Rage, Ancient Power, Power-Up Punch, Belly Drum, Belly Drum again

Competitive: Looking at base stats and typing alone, one might wonder how exactly this would fit into Ubers. It has an awful defensive typing, lands in an unimpressive Speed tier and has pathetic attacking stats. Then you notice it’s Marowak, and it has Huge Power. Ohhh boy. Let’s put this into numbers: with Huge Power and a Thick Club, Marowak’s Attack is quadrupled. It’s the equivalent of having a Belly Drum boost the moment you send it out. Uninvested, it reaches 584 Attack, which is more than an uninvested base 255 Attack. With full Attack investment, Marowak clocks in at 916 Attack, slightly more than Necrozma-DM at +2. Fortunately for every other Pokémon, every single possible method of boosting Marowak’s Attack or critical-hit rate has been removed (Belly Drum was so broken I had to remove it twice). As mentioned before, Marowak also sits in a lackluster Speed tier and has a terrible defensive typing with little special bulk and no recovery. It serves as an absolutely monstrous wallbreaker with STAB EdgeQuake and decent physical bulk, and it doesn’t really need much else to make an impact.

 

[Champion Leon]

New subs are up!

Jynx

Type: Ice/Psychic
Abilities: Neuroforce, Psychic Surge
85/50/95/135/115/120 - 600
New moves: Power Gem, Earth Power, Thunderbolt, Freeze-Dry

Competitive: Jynx can function as a setup sweeper with Nasty Plot, or you can put Specs on it for an all-out attacker set. Power Gem, Earth Power, Focus Blast and Freeze-Dry alone will hit most of the meta super-effectively, with further coverage in Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt, so Neuroforce sets can be very scary to face. Psychic Surge will boost Jynx’s Psychic-type STAB to massive levels, and giving it immunity to priority attacks lets it potentially beat out Pokémon that would otherwise be a problem for it, such as Sucker Punch Yveltal and Triage Parasect. However, faster Pokémon are a big problem for Jynx. Mega Gengar and Marshadow don’t appreciate switching in on anything except Focus Blast, but they can easily outspeed and revenge-kill it. Jynx also faces stiff competition from Ultra Necrozma, who also sports Neuroforce, is much faster, hits much harder, has better physical bulk, has a marginally better defensive typing, can switch into much more (especially if it’s in one of its prior forms), and can run physical, special, or mixed sets. Jynx, however, has better coverage than Ultra Necrozma and a much better offensive typing, plus it gets Nasty Plot, can hold an item, and can have Psychic Surge.

Shuckle

Type: Bug/Rock
Abilities: Oblivious, Poison Heal
75/10/230/10/230/5 - 560
New moves: Defend Order, Heal Order, Whirlwind, Spikes

Competitive: I doubt there’s much to explain here. Same old Shuckle with some more HP, reliable recovery, phazing, another hazard and some useful Abilities. Oblivious prevents it from being taunted, one of Shuckle’s biggest weaknesses, so it doesn’t have to hold a Mental Herb just to get rocks and webs (and spikes) up. Poison Heal is for passive healing and Toxic immunity, which removes another one of Shuckle’s biggest weaknesses. Oblivious is more useful if you’re using Shuckle as a lead, while Poison Heal works best on the more passive stall sets. Shuckle does have some weaknesses, though. It still has a direct-damage output of basically zero, so you can pretty much wall it with anything that has recovery provided it’s immune to Toxic damage. It’s still usually setup bait, though you can use Whirlwind to troll people who try to set up in your face. It struggles against wallbreakers and setup sweepers if they have boosts up. And, of course, Shuckle must choose between losing to Taunt and losing to Toxic.

Marowak

Type: Ground/Rock
Ability: Huge Power
100/55/150/50/80/90 - 525
New moves: Head Smash, Shadow Bone
Removed moves: Swords Dance, Focus Energy, Laser Focus, Curse, Rage, Ancient Power, Power-Up Punch, Belly Drum, Belly Drum again

Competitive: Looking at base stats and typing alone, one might wonder how exactly this would fit into Ubers. It has an awful defensive typing, lands in an unimpressive Speed tier and has pathetic attacking stats. Then you notice it’s Marowak, and it has Huge Power. Ohhh boy. Let’s put this into numbers: with Huge Power and a Thick Club, Marowak’s Attack is quadrupled. It’s the equivalent of having a Belly Drum boost the moment you send it out. Uninvested, it reaches 584 Attack, which is more than an uninvested base 255 Attack. With full Attack investment, Marowak clocks in at 916 Attack, slightly more than Necrozma-DM at +2. Fortunately for every other Pokémon, every single possible method of boosting Marowak’s Attack or critical-hit rate has been removed (Belly Drum was so broken I had to remove it twice). As mentioned before, Marowak also sits in a lackluster Speed tier and has a terrible defensive typing with little special bulk and no recovery. It serves as an absolutely monstrous wallbreaker with STAB EdgeQuake and decent physical bulk, and it doesn’t really need much else to make an impact.

Go Jynx! Go Shuckle! For Marowak:
I feel like it’s too strong, could you consider giving it a different ability?

I mean 916 Attack scares even Mega Medicham, and that requires using up your own Mega Stone. Please consider that it might be too much because it also has a huge Defense, and great dual STAB coverage.

Maybe just lower Attack to 40-45 base? Add a little speed to make it 95 and it’s a fair trade off. If you do, then Huge Power is okay.

I see your points on everything else, but that’s just way too much Turn 1 power sweep.

P.S. For Shuckle, can we lower it’s HP to 50-55? I have to also consider Sandstream support as it is a Rock-type. Thanks!

——————

Pokemon: Stantler
Type: Ground / Ice
Ability: Deserted / Gravitate (Triggers 5 turns Gravity from Lunatone’s Slate) / Hard Hooves (Tough Claws clone from Rapidash’s slate)
110/139/110/90/110/116 - 675
New Ability: Deserted - Summons Sandstorm until the user switches out (Desolate Land & Primordial Sea clone)
New Item: Snowflake - If Holder is Stantler / Sawsbuck, it gets +2 Critical Hit Ratio.
New moves: Shore Up, Quicksand, High Horsepower, Precipice Blades, Bulk Up, Horn Leech, High-Jump Kick, Blaze Kick, Arctic Hooves (Physical Oblivion Wing effect Clone)
New Move - Arctic Hooves - 90 Base Power, Physical, 100% Accuracy, Ice-Type, 16 PP - Drains 75% damage dealt
Competitive: Christmas came a little early this year, and Rudolph plans to bring you the gift of dual-coverage so weather (pun intended!), it’s running alone through the dark night to deliver gifts, dropping by a heavy gift with Gravity, or charging at its rivals, Stantler is here to bring joy to those who were nice, and punish those who were naughty!

Deserted - Rudolph was oftentimes deserted, and left alone due to its Red nose. Little did anyone know how a lonely path as the original Reindeer, could lead to an endless desert. From within the desertion, he learns to fight back against bullies, and to trap the opponent with Quicksand in the process. Having to live off the previously unbearable situations, he learned to Shore Up and adapt to his new surroundings. He may have been deserted, but the desert is now his own oasis. Don’t be rude to Rudolph — you might just get sand in your shoes!

Gravitate - Bc the legend of Rudolph is all about Gravity, I thought it best for us to let Rudolph use Gravity for 5-8 turns, which not only helps it’s Ground-moves, but also helps it’s Accuracy. Still, this comes at the cost of not being able to use High-Jump Kick, Bounce; and other coverage options. Further, Gravity has the double-edged sword of letting the opponent’s team gain the Accuracy boost and prevents my Flying/Levitators from being immune to hazards/Ground moves too.

Hard Hooves - Finally, the exact counterpart to Rapidash is here, being able to charge at the foe with a bit of a power boost, and knock its opponents flying. Thanks to it’s new move, Arctic Antlers, it can heal, as well as dish damage. Horn Drain also gives it access for coverage against Water-types, but lacks STAB.

Overall, it’s a perfect blend of good offense typing at the cost of a bad defense typing, and middling Speed / Defenses. This makes it a balanced Pokemon, through and through. Still, it’s versatility in ability functions allow it to stay balanced with Desertion, use support options (Hypnosis) and a bit of offense (Mega Horn) with Gravitate, or go all out on the Attack with Hard Hooves.

You mess with Santa, and you get the Antlers!

Secret Santa sets straight from the North Pole

Santa’s Little Helper (Stantler) @ Leftovers
Ability: Deserted
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Quicksand
- Arctic Hooves
- Shore Up

Rudolph (Stantler) @ Density Amplifier
Ability: Gravitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hypnosis
- Precipice Blades
- Arctic Hooves
- Mega Horn

It came to Sleigh! (Stantler) @ Life Orb
Ability: Hard Hooves
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Blaze Kick
- High Horsepower
- Arctic Hooves
- High Jump Kick

 

[alephgalactus]

For Shuckle, can we lower it’s HP to 50-55? I have to also consider Sandstream support as it is a Rock-type. Thanks!

I’m going to have to disagree with this one. Sand in regular Ubers is already unviable with the Primals running around, and fUtU has added two Delta Stream users to the mix. I think the HP is fine where it is.

I did originally have Marowak’s Attack as 50 instead of 55. Not sure exactly what made me change it. Anyway, even with that crazy Attack, it doesn’t reach the level of +2 PDon and has a very similar movepool in terms of coverage, so a lot of PDon checks have opportunities to come in on it. It’s also fairly easy to revenge kill, and Knock Off brings it down to around Azumarill level with no Belly Drum to back it up. I’ll nerf the HP to 80 to make it easier to kill. That should make it less oppressive.

 

[Champion Leon]

I’m going to have to disagree with this one. Sand in regular Ubers is already unviable with the Primals running around, and fUtU has added two Delta Stream users to the mix. I think the HP is fine where it is.

Okay. I just had to consider that compared to Chansey; Mega-Steelix, and Mega-Aggron with high Bulk, they usually have a weaker Def or SpD, but Shuckle can truly be a huge mixed wall. As Mega Steelix and Mega Aggron have equal Def to Shuckle, and ~ the same HP.

I guess the weakness to Water, and Stealth Rock will help, I am just concerned with PHeal, it will be hard to break through.

In either case, I’ll let it be. But just explaining my reasoning behind it.

Please consider for Marowak though. That is like a Medicham-Mega with a Choice Band.

 

[alephgalactus]

Okay. I just had to consider that compared to Chansey; Mega-Steelix, and Mega-Aggron with high Bulk, they usually have a weaker Def or SpD, but Shuckle can truly be a huge mixed wall.

I guess the weakness to Water, and Stealth Rock will help, I am just concerned with PHeal, it will be hard to break through.

In either case, I’ll let it be. But just explaining my reasoning behind it.

It’s hard to break through unboosted, but it’s complete setup fodder if it isn’t a Whirlwind or Defend Order set. It also straight-up loses to Taunt if it runs Poison Heal.

 

[Champion Leon]

SteelixPrismGX I completely understand I have been busy as well.
Fragmented I finally completely added your VR suggestions on the latest slate, as well as your Nom for changes on Butterfree, etc. from Anaconja’s original list. VR now matches your list!

 

[alephgalactus]

Pokemon: Stantler
Type: Ground / Ice
Ability: Levitate / Gravitate (Triggers 5 turns Gravity from Lunatone’s Slate) / Hard Hooves (Tough Claws clone from Rapidash’s slate)
110/135/110/90/110/110 - 665
New moves: High Horsepower, Bulk Up, Horn Leech, High-Jump Kick, Blaze Kick, Arctic Hooves (Leech Life Clone)
New Move - Arctic Hooves - 80 Base Power, Physical, 100% Accuracy, Ice-Type, 16 PP - Drains 50% damage dealt
Competitive: Christmas came a little early this year, and Rudolph plans to bring you the gift of dual-coverage so weather (pun intended!), it’s flying above your chimney to deliver gifts, dropping by a heavy gift with Gravity, or charging at its rivals, Stantler is here to bring joy to those who were nice, and punish those who were naughty!

Levitate - Rudolph leads the pack as the original Reindeer, as it knows how to soar above most entry hazards like Spikes, as well as Ground-attacks, and punish other Ground-types weak to Ice / Ground STAB.

Gravitate - Bc the legend of Rudolph is all about Gravity, I thought it best for us to let Rudolph use Gravity for 5-8 turns, which not only helps it’s Ground-moves, but also helps it’s Accuracy. Still, this comes at the cost of not being able to use High-Jump Kick, Bounce; and other coverage options. Further, Gravity has the double-edged sword of letting the opponent’s team gain the Accuracy boost and prevents my Flying/Levitators from being immune to hazards/Ground moves too.

Hard Hooves - Finally, the exact counterpart to Rapidash is here, being able to charge at the foe with a bit of a power boost, and knock its opponents flying. Thanks to it’s new move, Arctic Antlers, it can heal, as well as dish damage. Horn Drain also gives it access for coverage against Water-types, but lacks STAB.

Overall, it’s a perfect blend of good offense typing at the cost of a bad defense typing, and middling Speed / Defenses. This makes it a balanced Pokemon, through and through. Still, it’s versatility in ability functions allow it to stay defensive with Levitate, use support options (Hypnosis) and a bit of offense (Mega Horn) with Gravitate, or go all out on the Attack with Hard Hooves.

You mess with Santa, and you get the Antlers!

Secret Santa sets straight from the North Pole

Santa’s Little Helper (Stantler) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- High Horsepower
- Arctic Hooves
- Bounce / High-Jump Kick

Rudolph (Stantler) @ Density Amplifier
Ability: Gravitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hypnosis
- High Horsepower
- Arctic Hooves
- Mega Horn

It came to Sleigh! (Stantler) @ Life Orb
Ability: Hard Hooves
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Blaze Kick
- High Horsepower
- Arctic Hooves
- Mega Horn

I forgot to give my feedback on this. I just want to let you know that I really, really, REALLY love the idea of a physical Gravity user, especially one with High Jump Kick as one of its best moves so you have to weigh your options.

My only question is this:
Will you be doing a Sawsbuck sub to go along with it?

 

[Champion Leon]

I forgot to give my feedback on this. I just want to let you know that I really, really, REALLY love the idea of a physical Gravity user, especially one with High Jump Kick as one of its best moves so you have to weigh your options.

My only question is this:
Will you be doing a Sawsbuck sub to go along with it?

Thank you!
I thought of it, but didn’t want to take that away from the original submission author *wink*

Nominations closes 12 Midnight tonight. PST

(4 days since Halloween) but I extend to midnight so you can submit.

Didn’t see your post as I was at work. Hope you submit it by midnight tonight. Stantler needs a cousin!

P.S. If I don’t see your idea submitted by 9pm PST, then I will pull a Spinda 2.0 and submit on your behalf, and count it for your idea so it’s “yours”. I’ll base it off of its original submission, so it’s clearly that concept, and not mine, with only minor adjustments to make its BST closer to 700 so it’s more viable.
#GotYourBackMan!

 

[Fragmented]

you might've forgotten that ground types also remove static signal, so that includes pdon and zygod and groundceus and other ground-type subs. or maybe i misread it, it may have been ground types are just immune. don't remember atm.

personally, i don't think ground types should absorb static signal for the same reason that steel types don't absorb tspikes. but if it has been coded that way, then so be it.

 

[Champion Leon]

On behalf of alephgalactus

Pokemon: Sawsbuck
Type: Ice / Rock
Ability: Fur Coat / Winter / Skill Link
New Ability: Winter - Summons Permanent Hail until it leaves the battlefield (Primordial Sea / Desolate Land clone).
Stats: 110 /139 / 115 / 65 / 115 / 91 - 635
New moves: Aurora Veil, Diamond Storm, Glacial Surround, Strength Sap, Bullet Seed. Rock Blast, Bone Rush, Icicle Spear, Megahorn, Aromatherapy, Horn Leech, U-Turn, Stealth Rocks
New Item: Snowflake - If Holder is Stantler / Sawsbuck, it gets +2 Critical Hit Ratio.
Removed moves: Swords Dance
New Move - Glacial Surround - 110 Base Power, Physical, 90% Accuracy, Ice-Type, 16 PP - Partially traps foe 4-5 turns if Hail is up. (Same as Beartic).
Competitive Niche: Winter is coming! Who needs Game of Thrones when you can have a Reindeer Game? Unlike GoT suffering from cancel culture, Sawsbuck is here to stay, and puts a whole new spin on what it means to be “Seasonal”. You wanna Break the Ice with Sawsbuck? Well, it’s Solid as a Rock, and has the Skill to come at you in a flurry of repeated attacks. Stay cool My friends, because Sawsbuck is one big deer you ought to fear!

Abilities - Pimp Fur Coat: Save a turn and moveslot for something better than Aurora Veil, as you can get an immediate Defense boost, while dodging the removal effects of Defog, a key weakness of Aurora Veil. Further nothing like being able to function for Defense boosts in all weathers, and put up a good fight against its usual checks. Still, a 4x weakness to Fighting, Steel, and vulnerabilities to SpA keep it at bay, not to mention it relies on low PP moves and situational healing via Sap Strength. Don’t worry about missing the SpD boost either, after all that’s what Sandstream support is for. Justifiable due to its weakness centric Defensive typing.



Winter: Fear Delta Streamers just coming in and negating you’re super effective STAB because of their pesky clear skies? Let the Snowfall begin! While Swanna and Wailord are nuetral to Ice, Rock moves still hit them Stone Cold Steve Austin style. Looking to let them smell what the Rock-type is cooking? Rock their World with Diamond Storm, not to be confused with the equally reflective and clear Ice-type moves. Boost your Defense in the process and remind them why they call it “Saws”buck. Let Glacial Surround trap, chip with Hail Damage, buff Defenses for your team with Aurora Veil, boost Defense with Diamond Storm, and and siphon off your foe’s Attack via Strength Sap. Light Clay all the way.

Skill Link: Don’t let Kyogre-Primal be a Rain on your parade, nor let Groudon-Primal be a Summer bummer, put your skills to the test and hit them with your best shot, and fire those Bullet Seeds and Bone Rushes away! Plus being 1 Spe higher means you can be sure if they switch in, our Saws don’t give a Buck! Need more of a reason to keep up that sweep? Icicle Spear, and Rock Blast deal more damage than its next best STAB option, break Substitute, Sturdy, and Focus Sash, and have a chance to Flinch or Crit per hit, making them options for King’s Rock and Scope Lens shenanigans.

On to the Best bet Moveset!

Hide

Brrr Coat (Sawsbuck) @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Strength Sap
- Stealth Rocks / U-Turn
- Glacial Surround
- Aromatherapy

Team support for status cures and hazard support, while Defensive enough to use Strength Sap more to weaken an enemy’s Atk than to recover HP for more support. If you already pack Stealth Rocks, U-Turn works well to slowly pivot to an ally and tank Flying, Ice, Poison, and Normal hits.

Aw, Shucks (Sawsbuck) @ Light Clay / Snowflake
Ability: Winter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Glacial Surround
- Strength Sap
- Diamond Storm / Aromatherapy

With Hail, and Glacial Surround serving as passive chip damage, you won’t need to invest into Attack, while Diamond Storm serves as a Defensive booster, and thread to Ho-oh. Strength Sap heals and keeps the foe from striking back Physically, but has diminishing returns. Aromatherapy can be used to further support the team if you plan to switch out shortly after Aurora Veil, while Diamond Storm is to stay in and rely on Glacial Surround to trap and frost over the last hope your opponent has to switch out to safety.

Bone Slush Rush (Sawsbuck) @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bone Rush
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Bullet Seed

Got covered in Ice? Rocks? Bones? Seeds? Ya, Sawsbuck has got the coverage to keep your “check” covered. Steels / Rocks stay grounded, Waters / Rocks stay seeded, Grounds stay chill, and opposing Ice types get pummeled by its all-star Rock moves. Bet you never Saw that Buck coming... did ya? ;P

P.S. I edited my Stantler to keep up! Don’t count him out! They are very much counterparts based on a similar ability!

Lastly, I added Snowflake to this sub and my own bc I have seen so many Ice-types this slate, and a few in the past that I believe will really need this to gain a worthwhile boost to their power but maintain the limits necessary to keep it balanced.