Remove the following please since they left the tier.
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FU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Gary
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Well Pidge doesn't run off sets as good as Fearow, but it is still effective due to the chance of using Physical or Special moves giving it versatility and making it a little unpredictable. Fearow while effective ALWAYS have the same four moves (Drill Peck, Return, Drill Run, U-Turn) and the only difference is being Scarfed or Banded... Also Pidgeot is pretty good with defensive sets using Defog+Roost since it is bulkier than you might expect for the Tier...
About Quilla, it might get back to S, especially if Simisear ger Banned (isn't being suspected even if some of us have thought about it, but right now is pretty good in A+ considering that is really easy for it to set up spikes and while it can be used as setup bait, you can just run something like Ditto to get the crap outta setup sweepers after you get the spikes in...
I would say Masquerain
should go from D-->C
Masquerain has access to Quiver Dance, Intimidate and quite a few coverage moves (Giga Drain, Scald, Air Slash) at its disposal which allows Masquerain to hit many mons in this tier for super-effective damage; thus, being a scary sweeper if it gets up its Quiver Dances. Masquerain is outclassed by Butterfree since Butterfree has a higher speed and special attack stat and also access to Sleep Powder which makes it a better sweeper, also Masquerain relies on a few Quiver Dances before it becomes a sweeping monster. Overall, the fact that Masquerain has coverage moves and the possibility of forcing switches due to Intimidate should give this mon a place in this tier.
Masquerain has access to Quiver Dance, Intimidate and quite a few coverage moves (Giga Drain, Scald, Air Slash) at its disposal which allows Masquerain to hit many mons in this tier for super-effective damage; thus, being a scary sweeper if it gets up its Quiver Dances. Masquerain is outclassed by Butterfree since Butterfree has a higher speed and special attack stat and also access to Sleep Powder which makes it a better sweeper, also Masquerain relies on a few Quiver Dances before it becomes a sweeping monster. Overall, the fact that Masquerain has coverage moves and the possibility of forcing switches due to Intimidate should give this mon a place in this tier.
Well... Masq might not be totally outclassed by Butter since the speed difference isn't THAT huge (it is significant though) and thanks to intimidate, it could set up a QD against some passive mons... Also, Scald is a REALLY good move, because it can prevent some Pokes like Lairon and Gigalith to come in freely, not only because it will inflict heavy damage, but because of that disgusting burn chance...I would say Masquerainshould go from D-->C
Masquerain has access to Quiver Dance, Intimidate and quite a few coverage moves (Giga Drain, Scald, Air Slash) at its disposal which allows Masquerain to hit many mons in this tier for super-effective damage; thus, being a scary sweeper if it gets up its Quiver Dances. Masquerain is outclassed by Butterfree since Butterfree has a higher speed and special attack stat and also access to Sleep Powder which makes it a better sweeper, also Masquerain relies on a few Quiver Dances before it becomes a sweeping monster. Overall, the fact that Masquerain has coverage moves and the possibility of forcing switches due to Intimidate should give this mon a place in this tier.
So... I would be adventurous and say that it might even go to B- rank since it actually have almost the same traits from Butterfree but getting free turns from Intimidate + not completely garbage Physical Bulk (70/62 is not as bad as 60/50, especially after Imtimidate) instead of relying on Sleep Powder shaky accuracy (if you use Butter you should go Tinted Lens)...
Eh, not really sure about Masquerain, even with intimidate it can't set up on much with rocks up, and it's more difficult to keep them off than ever before. Butterfree doesn't need to rely on its bulk with sleep powder, and is offensively far better with tinted lens bug buzz. If you can keep rocks off Masquerain can set up on a decent amount of stuff, such as Simisage with a bit of hp investment, but I'm not sure if I'd ever actually decide to use this over Butterfree; B- is definitely a little high for it.
Also, we sort of need to sort out who is updating this thread since Gary's gone. Magnemite is probably gonna do it for the time being but yeah, we need to sort this out by either making a new thread with a new leader or just have Magnemite rule it.
I would like to nominate for Emolga to get raised from C to C+ or B-. Emolga, in my opinion, is very underrated and useful. It has Motor Drive, which helps it hurt other Electric types like Pikachu and the infamous Electabuzz. It's Flying type helps it as well, as Acrobatics hits pretty hard suprisingly with Emolga's 75 attack, which also helps it against Grass types. It can help provide momentum with Volt Switch or U-Turn as well. It even has Encore, which helps it neuter set up sweepers. Emolga has some flaws, though, like being walled by Electrics when it walls them, having little to no coverage, and being a bit frail, but Emolga really should be considered for a rise considering it's plethora of pros.
Also, we sort of need to sort out who is updating this thread since Gary's gone. Magnemite is probably gonna do it for the time being but yeah, we need to sort this out by either making a new thread with a new leader or just have Magnemite rule it.
Mambo should be making a new one soon but he's busy right now so I don't know when its gonna be.
Anyway I would like to make few minor nominations.
Delibird from C to D or E This Pokemon is not viable at all. It's main use is Rapid Spin however it loses a whopping 50% when spinning Stealth Rocks. It can't take a hit with 45,45,45 defense stats and with 65 Special Attack it can't punch back despite having a good move pool. It is outclassed by Wartortle as a Rapid Spinner since it has a better typing and access to Eviolite and outclassed by Ice Pokemon like Glaceon and Beartic. Not to mention that there are better Pokemon that can have access of Defog like Lumineon.Overall this Pokemon has to many flaws to be considered C material.
Magmar from D to C. How is this Pokemon D? It has a good 97,100 attack stats and a solid 85 Special Defense. It could run a Special, Physical, or Mixed because of its move pool and stats. Not to mention it has access to Eviolite. The recent Tier Shift benefited this Pokemon because there are less Waters out there. This Pokemon has some flaws like its God-Awful 57 Defense, but it has a good 93 Speed. Overall this Pokemon is better than all of D Pokemon and deserves to be higher on the ranking.
Semisear from S to S+. It lost a bunch of checks because of the Tier Shift. It should of been S+ before the Tier Shift and is now on the same level as Buzz and Sage. Enough said.
Delibird from C to D or E This Pokemon is not viable at all. It's main use is Rapid Spin however it loses a whopping 50% when spinning Stealth Rocks. It can't take a hit with 45,45,45 defense stats and with 65 Special Attack it can't punch back despite having a good move pool. It is outclassed by Wartortle as a Rapid Spinner since it has a better typing and access to Eviolite and outclassed by Ice Pokemon like Glaceon and Beartic. Not to mention that there are better Pokemon that can have access of Defog like Lumineon.Overall this Pokemon has to many flaws to be considered C material.
Magmar from D to C. How is this Pokemon D? It has a good 97,100 attack stats and a solid 85 Special Defense. It could run a Special, Physical, or Mixed because of its move pool and stats. Not to mention it has access to Eviolite. The recent Tier Shift benefited this Pokemon because there are less Waters out there. This Pokemon has some flaws like its God-Awful 57 Defense, but it has a good 93 Speed. Overall this Pokemon is better than all of D Pokemon and deserves to be higher on the ranking.
Semisear from S to S+. It lost a bunch of checks because of the Tier Shift. It should of been S+ before the Tier Shift and is now on the same level as Buzz and Sage. Enough said.
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Well, I agree with the Simisear one... However the other two are a little bit debatable...
Delibird might feel like isn't viable but it does have a few perks that gives it a niche... Spikes + D-Bond are excellent for a suicide lead and even with 75 speed being a little bit disappointing, isn't that bad considering the tier... Also, Rapid spin gives it extra utility because even if it does lose half of its health against SR, it is immune to spikes and TS while Wartortle would be completely crippled by them...
The Magmar case its a little bit harder because while Magmar looks decent in paper, isn't that good in practice... Magmar is slower than Simisear and only marginally stronger in the special department, while weaker on the physical one, leaving it not only outsped by a few things (Fearow and Raticate both comes to my mind right now) but also weaker without any forms of boosting outside hideous moves like Belly Drum and Power Up Punch...
Also, the bulk on a fire type is always debatable just because it will take extra damage from SR and Magmar isn't even immune to spikes and to make it worst, do not have reliable recovery, which will means that it can't check a lot of things that it should... That leaves ir pretty much outclassed by Simisear... Sure it could go to C rank but I don't see in which kind of cases I would need Magmar over Simisear...
Sorry for grading Delibird as F. I was kind of in a hurry. That's not even a real ranking! Anyway, I think that D is a good ranking because of the flaws it has like its stats and typing. It is a good sucide leader however with Destiny Bond and Spikes. But is has its flaws so I think D is a good ranking
Anyway I think that Magmar should be C- if not C because it got better in the Tier Shift and it has a niche over Semisear with Evolvite. It isn't that good of a Pokemon but it should be a bit higher.
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So, after an excessive amount of lurking and playteasting with a friend of mine, my thoughts on the tier! (I love this tier too much to wait for Mambo's big changes xD)
Let's just get the obvious out of the way:
Simisear needs to be S+ now. Anything that can even hope to check it either takes heavy damage doing so or can't switch in on an attack / live the next one. I have found that Lampent completely checks standard Simisear sets right now, since I have not seen many Simisear running around with Knock Off (which smashes Lampent pretty hard), which is why I'm tempted to nom Lampent to go up to B, but idk if that one thing really deserves a rank-up. Sure, it's neat, but it's still kinda eh, espacially because Knock is still possible. If somebody'd like to talk that below me, feel free to, I'd love to hear some other player's thoughts.
Now, on to some other things that have been said above me:
I don't think Emolga needs to move anywhere, since nothing's really happened that helps it (if anything, the loss of Water-types to barely slap with Wild Charge hurt Emolga) and the most common Electric-type, buzz, commonly carries Hidden Power Ice which can 2HKO. Meanwhile, Emolga's strongest move against buzz is probably itemless Acrobatics, which deals less than 30% to standard Eviolite buzz. Plus, unless Emolga receives the Motor Drive boost, buzz outspeeds anyways. This is coming from a man who would love for Emolga to work, but it just doesn't. Cute, slightly niche garbage, but garbage nonetheless.
252 Atk Emolga Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 66-78 (24.3 - 28.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Electabuzz Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Emolga: 158-188 (62.9 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'll agree with Rennyjesus on never really wanting Magmar over Simisear, since the only niche Magmar gets is the elemental punches, while Simisear gets Knock Off, Gunk Shot, etc., and that's only talking about physical moves. Meanwhile Simisear covers that specially with Hidden Power [insert type]. The drop in Speed kills Magmar specially as well, while being the bulkiest Fire-type in FU really means nothing with a) Stealth Rocks under every rug in the tier, b) a now-increasing preparedness for Fire-types, thanks to Simisear, and c) the fact that Fire is a garbage defensive typing anyway.
Not much to say about Delibird, other than I've never used it and never really wanted to either. Whirl is good right now, and outclasses it enough to keep Delibird where it is (although D-bond lead sounds kinda fun I guess I'll try it one day).
Masquerain is like C+ material at best, probably C or so. B- just seems way too high, Butterfree just outclasses it so much, even with Intimidate and Scald on Masq's side.
tldr;
Simisear to S+
Emolga & Delibird stay where they are at C
Magmar stays where it is at D
Masquerain to C probably / C+ at most
Discussion Points:
Lampent to B? bc it's a standard Simisear counter + Speedy w/ Choice Scarf who can hit fairly hard + less Water to stop it now
Let's just get the obvious out of the way:
Simisear needs to be S+ now. Anything that can even hope to check it either takes heavy damage doing so or can't switch in on an attack / live the next one. I have found that Lampent completely checks standard Simisear sets right now, since I have not seen many Simisear running around with Knock Off (which smashes Lampent pretty hard), which is why I'm tempted to nom Lampent to go up to B, but idk if that one thing really deserves a rank-up. Sure, it's neat, but it's still kinda eh, espacially because Knock is still possible. If somebody'd like to talk that below me, feel free to, I'd love to hear some other player's thoughts.
Now, on to some other things that have been said above me:
I don't think Emolga needs to move anywhere, since nothing's really happened that helps it (if anything, the loss of Water-types to barely slap with Wild Charge hurt Emolga) and the most common Electric-type, buzz, commonly carries Hidden Power Ice which can 2HKO. Meanwhile, Emolga's strongest move against buzz is probably itemless Acrobatics, which deals less than 30% to standard Eviolite buzz. Plus, unless Emolga receives the Motor Drive boost, buzz outspeeds anyways. This is coming from a man who would love for Emolga to work, but it just doesn't. Cute, slightly niche garbage, but garbage nonetheless.
252 Atk Emolga Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 66-78 (24.3 - 28.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Electabuzz Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Emolga: 158-188 (62.9 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'll agree with Rennyjesus on never really wanting Magmar over Simisear, since the only niche Magmar gets is the elemental punches, while Simisear gets Knock Off, Gunk Shot, etc., and that's only talking about physical moves. Meanwhile Simisear covers that specially with Hidden Power [insert type]. The drop in Speed kills Magmar specially as well, while being the bulkiest Fire-type in FU really means nothing with a) Stealth Rocks under every rug in the tier, b) a now-increasing preparedness for Fire-types, thanks to Simisear, and c) the fact that Fire is a garbage defensive typing anyway.
Not much to say about Delibird, other than I've never used it and never really wanted to either. Whirl is good right now, and outclasses it enough to keep Delibird where it is (although D-bond lead sounds kinda fun I guess I'll try it one day).
Masquerain is like C+ material at best, probably C or so. B- just seems way too high, Butterfree just outclasses it so much, even with Intimidate and Scald on Masq's side.
tldr;
Simisear to S+
Emolga & Delibird stay where they are at C
Magmar stays where it is at D
Masquerain to C probably / C+ at most
Discussion Points:
Lampent to B? bc it's a standard Simisear counter + Speedy w/ Choice Scarf who can hit fairly hard + less Water to stop it now
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I don't really think Lampent is a counter to Simisear, as long as Simisear has Knock Off, he can just smack Lampent for big damage, while Lampent loses it's Scarf and probably only 2HKOs at best with Shadow Ball (Good, but still can't kill Sear) But any Sear that doesn't have Knock Off gets countered by Lamp, so I guess Lamp can definetely have a good niche.
Simisear definetely is S+ material from the reasons posted above.
I don't know who would ever want Magmar over Simisear, elemental punches or Belly Drum is cool and all, but it isn't worth it since Simisear provides so much offensive presence and is so powerful.
Also, can we talk about Sliggoo, I know it probably isn't that great, but I feel like a Sap Sipper walling set like a Resttalk set could probably work as a check to a lot of stuff, like Electabuzz and monkeys without Knock Off. (It also can learn Curse, so maybe a Resttalk Curse set could work with a lot of support maybe?) Like, I don't mind it staying at C, but it does have some cool things that could maybe warrant a rise (Knock Off is a big problem though.)
Simisear definetely is S+ material from the reasons posted above.
I don't know who would ever want Magmar over Simisear, elemental punches or Belly Drum is cool and all, but it isn't worth it since Simisear provides so much offensive presence and is so powerful.
Also, can we talk about Sliggoo, I know it probably isn't that great, but I feel like a Sap Sipper walling set like a Resttalk set could probably work as a check to a lot of stuff, like Electabuzz and monkeys without Knock Off. (It also can learn Curse, so maybe a Resttalk Curse set could work with a lot of support maybe?) Like, I don't mind it staying at C, but it does have some cool things that could maybe warrant a rise (Knock Off is a big problem though.)
Woooohooooo! A lot if comments here! That makes me soooooo happy! Now lets get into them...
Well, a Curse set for Sliggoo couldn't be that affected by knock off since after a few curses it would be bulky enough even without eviolite... It also have Dragon Tail that is gonna be amazing for racking hazard damage and avoid being setup fodder...
Also, a few months ago, some friends and I tried some weird things and Physically defensive Phione + Specially Defensive Sliggoo with hydration and rain support are REALLY annoying, so that could also be a niche...
About Lampent, I hadn't thought about it but it could actually work decently against a lot of things here since it can also run a kinda defensive set with Evio+WoW to cripple physical attackers and even uninvested, can hit hard with base 130 Hex...
Bout Masquerain... I have tried it and while B- might sound a little bit high right now, its gonna be kinda reasonable if Sear get banned... I might be biased because in my experience, Scald burn rate is almost 90% but intimidate + burn will cripple every single physical attacker in the tier and that will allow Masq to setup with ease...
Also.. Emolga is really bad... :(
Well, a Curse set for Sliggoo couldn't be that affected by knock off since after a few curses it would be bulky enough even without eviolite... It also have Dragon Tail that is gonna be amazing for racking hazard damage and avoid being setup fodder...
Also, a few months ago, some friends and I tried some weird things and Physically defensive Phione + Specially Defensive Sliggoo with hydration and rain support are REALLY annoying, so that could also be a niche...
About Lampent, I hadn't thought about it but it could actually work decently against a lot of things here since it can also run a kinda defensive set with Evio+WoW to cripple physical attackers and even uninvested, can hit hard with base 130 Hex...
Bout Masquerain... I have tried it and while B- might sound a little bit high right now, its gonna be kinda reasonable if Sear get banned... I might be biased because in my experience, Scald burn rate is almost 90% but intimidate + burn will cripple every single physical attacker in the tier and that will allow Masq to setup with ease...
Also.. Emolga is really bad... :(
I completely agree with Wailord going to C+, that seems to fit it nicely. Sure, it needs a crapton of support, and it's not like Wish will help it in the slightest, while Curse + Self Destruct seems a usable niche, and Water Veil prevents burns on such a set, so I could see it getting some use. I heard tell of a PP stalling set with Pressure which sounds interesting, but I'm not entirely sure how good that is in practice.
Murkrow is complete badass right now. Prankster Thunder Wave can just about cripple a Simi sweep, and if nothing it makes it even easier for Specs Sear to come in and obliterate. Not sure about S- yet, but that sounds about right.
Stantler is cool and all, but if it is ranked, I don't see it going above C. Its defenses are ass, its typing is meh, and even its offenses are a little lacking (Speed in particular, even by FU standards, considering its bulk). Intimidate does patch up physical defense a bit tho, so I guess its usable, sure. The best thing it has going for it is a pretty good movepool, but it lacks the stats to pull off any of the moves it wants to.
As much as I hate the idea of facing that Sliggoo + Phione core, it does sound pretty solid. Specially defensive Sliggoo also checks Sear and Buzz to hell and back, Modest fully invested Sear with Choice Specs Overheat in the sun can't even 3HKO Sliggoo. Wow. Meanwhile, Buzz can't do more than 30% with a Modest fully invested Choice Specs Thunder on a crit. That's ridiculous. Knock Off is like taking the shell off of the snail tho, so I don't see Sliggoo going above C+ for that.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Thunder vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo on a critical hit: 80-94 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- 81.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Simisear Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo in Sun: 96-113 (28.3 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
For my own nom:
Croconaw to B-
With the loss of Kingler, we now need something else as our physical Water-type. Croconaw has boosting moves in Dragon Dance, and is reasonably bulky with Eviolite, while he's got priority in Aqua Jet and Sheer Force Waterfall / Crunch to hit like a truck (especially in Rain). All in all, with no more Kingler, the one thing to use over Croconaw vanished and therefore, Croconaw deserves a rank up.
Murkrow is complete badass right now. Prankster Thunder Wave can just about cripple a Simi sweep, and if nothing it makes it even easier for Specs Sear to come in and obliterate. Not sure about S- yet, but that sounds about right.
Stantler is cool and all, but if it is ranked, I don't see it going above C. Its defenses are ass, its typing is meh, and even its offenses are a little lacking (Speed in particular, even by FU standards, considering its bulk). Intimidate does patch up physical defense a bit tho, so I guess its usable, sure. The best thing it has going for it is a pretty good movepool, but it lacks the stats to pull off any of the moves it wants to.
As much as I hate the idea of facing that Sliggoo + Phione core, it does sound pretty solid. Specially defensive Sliggoo also checks Sear and Buzz to hell and back, Modest fully invested Sear with Choice Specs Overheat in the sun can't even 3HKO Sliggoo. Wow. Meanwhile, Buzz can't do more than 30% with a Modest fully invested Choice Specs Thunder on a crit. That's ridiculous. Knock Off is like taking the shell off of the snail tho, so I don't see Sliggoo going above C+ for that.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Thunder vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo on a critical hit: 80-94 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- 81.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Simisear Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo in Sun: 96-113 (28.3 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
For my own nom:
Croconaw to B-
With the loss of Kingler, we now need something else as our physical Water-type. Croconaw has boosting moves in Dragon Dance, and is reasonably bulky with Eviolite, while he's got priority in Aqua Jet and Sheer Force Waterfall / Crunch to hit like a truck (especially in Rain). All in all, with no more Kingler, the one thing to use over Croconaw vanished and therefore, Croconaw deserves a rank up.
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