It's a general rule of thumb, meaning this applies to most examples, not necessarily every single one.
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Pokémon Gallade
- Thread starter Rosen
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It sounds crazy to say, but Mega Gallade is actually underwhelming in practice from my experience. The main issue is of course Sableye and Slowbro, who completely cockblock any wallbreaking capabilities. Max defense Mega Altaria, although uncommon on stall because of sab and bro, completely cockblocks Gallade too. Hell even the bulky DD set which is quite common on balance can avoid the 2HKO from ice punch (if you carry it) and setup in your face. Swords dance builds are no problem for stall either with unaware clef and even unaware quag (close combat only has a 30% chance to 2HKO).
Everyone hates the opportunity cost argument but if you needed a wallbreaking mega why would you use Gallade over much better choices like Gard and Zard Y? They actually beat common stall cores, especially Gard, and even for hyper offensive teams there are better picks for the mega slot like Metagross and Lopunny.
Then there are the other obvious issues like getting destroyed by Talonflame and even quick attack from Mega Pinsir (unboosted does around 73-90 iirc).
I hope that didn't come off as if I think Gallade is bad, not even close, but it's really not that great. I've had success with it but I've found myself wishing I was using a different mega more than once.
Everyone hates the opportunity cost argument but if you needed a wallbreaking mega why would you use Gallade over much better choices like Gard and Zard Y? They actually beat common stall cores, especially Gard, and even for hyper offensive teams there are better picks for the mega slot like Metagross and Lopunny.
Then there are the other obvious issues like getting destroyed by Talonflame and even quick attack from Mega Pinsir (unboosted does around 73-90 iirc).
I hope that didn't come off as if I think Gallade is bad, not even close, but it's really not that great. I've had success with it but I've found myself wishing I was using a different mega more than once.
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Let's not forget Megacham, who has only the wallbreaker niche to give it something it can do that Mega Gallade can't do.
It's outclassed by Mega Gallade itself because it can't do shit to Stall anymore, has less bulk, and doesn't have SD.
What do you guys think about ice punch vs swords dance? When I choose one I always end up in positions where the other would be more beneficial. I haven't really made up my mind about which is more useful altogether. Ice punch doesn't really hit that much but being able to muscle past Lando without needing a turn to setup is a pretty big deal.
I don't think it's worth it, you lose out on the ability to muscle past things like Skarmory, Hippo, and Slowbro for being able to hit Lando and Gliscor harder. I find it better to just Knock Off its Lefties and let something else deal with it.
What do you think about running Poison Jab over Zen Headbutt? You lose out on Psychic STAB but you 2HKO Clefable after SR or any prior damage.
What do you think about running Poison Jab over Zen Headbutt? You lose out on Psychic STAB but you 2HKO Clefable after SR or any prior damage.
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I feel that Gallade's Psychic STAB is one of the things that set it apart from the other Fighters and, while getting the 2HKO and OHKO on Clefable and Gardevoir/ offensive Sylveon respectively is very nice, losing your main weapon against opposing Fighting / weakened Flying types and the likes isn't really worth it. Without Zen Headbutt, things like MegaHera/Mega Venusaur can actually take a hit and do severe damage/wall you in return, and you also lose a decently powerful STAB to spam when Steel/Psychic types have been eliminated (for example, a healthy Landorus-I is always 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt, while it's only 3HKoed by Knock off, etc...).
I agree with Gladio. Losing your psychic STAB is a no go. You need it for the pokemon he mentioned + other annoying threats like Keldeo, Conkeldurr, and defensive Breloom. They all take big damage from CC anyway but there are situations where you will need the SE bonus. If you really want to run poison jab then run it in the swords dance/ice punch slot because that's the most expendable slot. CC, zen headbutt, and knock off are pretty much mandatory.
To be honest though poison jab kind of sucks when compared to Gallade's other options which is why you never see anybody running it.
To be honest though poison jab kind of sucks when compared to Gallade's other options which is why you never see anybody running it.
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Agreed regarding Poison Jab. Zen Headbutt is too good to give up (The 90 Acc gets frustrating on Showdown Hax though). Psychic and Fighting actually get good coverage with Knock Off.
In my experience, Drain Punch has been more useful than CC. I wanted to know what you guys think. CC is better for wall-breaking, but Drain Punch helps more with sweeping in a way. Primarily because priority is everywhere, and the defense drops prevent a successful sweep. Whereas Drain Punch lets you take more priority hits by continuously healing. Gallade's bulk is very respectable too. And SD Drain Punch still wrecks many things.
Lastly, I find the wall-breaking set is outclassed by medicham. And with Sableye everywhere, you really can't wall-break or sweep until it's KO'd.
In my experience, Drain Punch has been more useful than CC. I wanted to know what you guys think. CC is better for wall-breaking, but Drain Punch helps more with sweeping in a way. Primarily because priority is everywhere, and the defense drops prevent a successful sweep. Whereas Drain Punch lets you take more priority hits by continuously healing. Gallade's bulk is very respectable too. And SD Drain Punch still wrecks many things.
Lastly, I find the wall-breaking set is outclassed by medicham. And with Sableye everywhere, you really can't wall-break or sweep until it's KO'd.
I do find it difficult to agree with this. The second sentence is completely irrelevant when it applies to Medicham even moreso than Gallade. However, there is one main point that I feel makes Gallade better than Medicham in the wallbreaking department: Knock Off. This to me is the absolutely crucial factor. Medicham would die to have good Dark coverage which helps so damn much against bulky psychics like Slowbro, Celebi, Jirachi and Cresselia, and even if it doesn't score a KO it's still a very safe option to go for to remove Leftovers.
I agree with you. I just find CC is better for wallbreaking, and Drain Punch is better for sweeping.
I feel like Drain Punch makes you too reliant on Swords Dance boosts. You wont KO Ferrothorn unboosted for example, and Close Combat can do cool things like 2HKO Rotom-W without a boost and OHKOing offensive Mega Scizor at +2. The immediate power also really helps against offense where you'll have trouble finding room to set up and your bulk is mostly used to tank a hit and retaliate.
I tried using a Choice Scarf on my gallade, just to see how it goes. Although that made swords dance useless, I found the extra speed very handy and more or less turned gallade into a full-fledged physical sweeper. I taught it both night slash and leaf blade alongside drain punch and zen headbutt so it can sweep more effectively. The reason I did this was because gallade can easily be taken down by any flying-type physical move unless you invest your EVs in defense, so I found it quite difficult sometimes to get a good opportunity to set up swords dance, even if the outcome was very rewarding.
Gallade is incredibly underwhelming and non-threatening without it's Mega. There are far better Scarfed fighting-types to go for in the meta like Terrakion for instance. Gallade simply doesn't have the power, coverage, speed or STAB combination to pull off anything without Galladite.
As for flying-types, this is still a very big problem because Talonflame and Pinsir still kill you with their flying-type priority, and things like Staraptor sometimes run Scarf which will outspeed you. How a sweeper works is that you're supposed to use the other teammates to take out the things that stop you from sweeping beforehand; just as Mega Charizard X needs rock-types and things like Azumarill removed before it can Dragon Dance, Gallade needs his teammates to remove Sableye and Birdspam and such. Gallade just isn't viable and has no niche without it's Mega Stone.
Gallade beats all "bulky waters" bar quagsire at +2 anyway, and if you use leaf blade you lose out on quite a lot of coverage.
Also I dunno if anyone has brought this up but please do not use shadow sneak on gallade, it hurts my soul when I see someone use it...
EDIT: and slowbro, yeah.
Also I dunno if anyone has brought this up but please do not use shadow sneak on gallade, it hurts my soul when I see someone use it...
EDIT: and slowbro, yeah.
Leaf Blade's actually decently viable as a lure for Mega Slowbro iirc; but it is a little sub-optimal.
But yeah please don't use Shadow Sneak ever. It's really bad on Gallade even at +2 and takes away a very valuable coverage option.
Yeah, agreed. I still find Drain Punch to be infinitely more useful than CC, even against offense. If you're running swords dance, you can heal off damage from priority. For example, Take Bisharp's SP, then heal back to near full health. Then take Scizor's BP, and heal back again. You keep avoiding getting KOs, which gives you more survivability and allows you to take out more pokemon.
Whereas with CC, your defenses get weaker. That's why CC is better on substitute or all out attacking sets, and drain punch is better at +2.
Whereas with CC, your defenses get weaker. That's why CC is better on substitute or all out attacking sets, and drain punch is better at +2.
I still disagree, Close Combat nets you KOs that are just too important that you can't adequately wallbreak without it.
For example you're able to OHKO Ferrothorn after rocks, which otherwise you'd be open to Leech Seed, TWave, another layer of hazards, or Gyro Ball/Power Whip damage you can't heal off. It also lets you deal upwards of 60% to defensive Rotom-W, that's two U-Turn/Volt Switches away from you breaking a physical wall unboosted, which otherwise you would have to deal with Will-O-Wisp from it. Drain Punch also means you'll never beat Quagsire period, whereas Close Combat has an 85% chance to 2HKO after rocks.
At +2 Close Combat lets you break through some important walls.
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 327-385 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can otherwise whirlwind you out and heal off the damage later, while as now you can outright kill with any prior damage, or it can whirlwind you out but is now weakened enough that anything can KO.
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Self explanatory.
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 358-423 (84.6 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also self explanatory, your only option of beating Mandibuzz is to OHKO it, since if it retaliates with anything you die.
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 319-376 (93 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Drain Punch actually also beats Scizor at +2, but this is just here to show off that you can OHKO Scizor, which is useful against the offensive variant since Bug Bite + Bullet Punch knocks you out.
Drain Punch has its merits that's for sure but you can't honestly tell me it's "infinitely better", lol.
For example you're able to OHKO Ferrothorn after rocks, which otherwise you'd be open to Leech Seed, TWave, another layer of hazards, or Gyro Ball/Power Whip damage you can't heal off. It also lets you deal upwards of 60% to defensive Rotom-W, that's two U-Turn/Volt Switches away from you breaking a physical wall unboosted, which otherwise you would have to deal with Will-O-Wisp from it. Drain Punch also means you'll never beat Quagsire period, whereas Close Combat has an 85% chance to 2HKO after rocks.
At +2 Close Combat lets you break through some important walls.
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 327-385 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can otherwise whirlwind you out and heal off the damage later, while as now you can outright kill with any prior damage, or it can whirlwind you out but is now weakened enough that anything can KO.
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Self explanatory.
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 358-423 (84.6 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also self explanatory, your only option of beating Mandibuzz is to OHKO it, since if it retaliates with anything you die.
+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 319-376 (93 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Drain Punch actually also beats Scizor at +2, but this is just here to show off that you can OHKO Scizor, which is useful against the offensive variant since Bug Bite + Bullet Punch knocks you out.
Drain Punch has its merits that's for sure but you can't honestly tell me it's "infinitely better", lol.
It needs to remove to many pokemon on the opposite team to work, I mean it's decent with the added bulk, but it's just not efficient over SD sets or Taunt sets.
I see. Thanks for clarifying with those calcs. I wasn't meaning to say Drain Punch is infinitely better. Just more useful against offensive teams once you've setup because of Gallade's susceptibility to priority. All of the calcs you included were against powerful walls found on balance or stall teams, not offense. CC is definitely the better choice for wall-breaking capabilities. The only one I worry about with Drain Punch is Rotom, since he can be seen on offense.
Also, I think it's a matter of team construction. I use HP Fire Serperior who beats almost every pokemon you listed. Even mandibuzz can't switch into leaf storm and proceed to take the onslaught afterward:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 178-211 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
After the first boost, he can muscle his way through. But that's more a matter of team construction and less an issue of Gallade himself. Bisharp gives my team trouble, so Drain Punch has helped me heal off most of the Sucker Punch damage.
It's merely a suggestion for those struggling with offense. CC is certainly better for wallbreaking stall or balance cores.
Could you elaborate on why these are sets that should be used over the standard?
The destiny bond set possibly can be more functional than the standard sets because M-Gallade reaches 350 speed, it's high, after defeating a mon w/ Close Combat your defs goes down and you can got 2 kills on mons that are slower than M-Gallade.
The Stall sets it's a little bit crazy from my part, i just wanted to explore the Taunt/W-O-W on Gallade, it's not all this bad tbh, he reach 256 spe without any EVs, W-O-W + Def EVs allows gallade to hold a lot of Physical Sweepers, Drain Punch gives you durability and Knock Off doesn't need explanation.
I'm not telling that those sets are better than the standard ones, i just wanted to make them and share them here.
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