Resource Game Issues and Feedback Thread

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Personally, the most important things to me is alphabetization regardless of format decided, and that there does become a sole format for profiles. I can adapt to a format I don't like if it becomes the format. I think it would be nice where if I'm battling a Level 3 Charizard, for example, its move list looks the same no matter who its owner is. Like I'd rather look for moves like Counter in the same spot on every mons profile that I'll ever go against rather than different spots depending on my opponent.

In terms of what's easiest to approve, the move lists we currently have will become outdated anyway so new lists/tools can be developed to best work for whatever the final decision is here. Like Ooraloo said we have members here with the skillsets needed to make this happen, so I think this part should be weighted less than than what's easiest for players to order against.
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
One last consideration that I don't see many players discussing: As mentioned before, we're looking to allow sending Pokemon to battles of a Level lower than their own, wherein they will be using only moves of the battle's Level or lower.

Does this affect how people want moves sorted, or will people generally accept having the referee retrieve the Pokemon's down-synced Movepool from the master movepool reference?
 
Personally, I would strongly prefer being able to continue sorting my movelists by method of acquisition. I'm willing to include secondary listings in each of my profiles organized as is convenient for the rest of the playerbase, but I am hesitant to change from the format I find most useful.
 

Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
is a Community Contributor
One last consideration that I don't see many players discussing: As mentioned before, we're looking to allow sending Pokemon to battles of a Level lower than their own, wherein they will be using only moves of the battle's Level or lower.

Does this affect how people want moves sorted, or will people generally accept having the referee retrieve the Pokemon's down-synced Movepool from the master movepool reference?
This is definitely another point in favor of sorting by level imo
 

F Amadon

formerly Florina Liastacia
is a Pre-Contributor
Personally, I would strongly prefer being able to continue sorting my movelists by method of acquisition. I'm willing to include secondary listings in each of my profiles organized as is convenient for the rest of the playerbase, but I am hesitant to change from the format I find most useful.
I think it would be fine if you included acquisition method move sorting for yourself, but we do want a primary, standard sorting method for everyone that is both easy to approve and easy to reference for every player. The main issue that has been brought up with having multiple move sort methods is that each one has to be approved by approvers so that there's no discrepancies.
 
Fair enough. I agree that a degree of standardization would be useful, as long as we can leave the option for additional personalization intact.

I can't really say that I find any extant format in our game difficult to approve, though; just rip the entire list in a single motion as would work for an alphabetized list with no breaks. Many online list-checkers are perfectly capable of sorting out section headers such as "Level-up," "Physical," or "Level 3" once a movelist has been copy/pasted into its field, so the matter reduces to picking out the headers by eye when viewing the final comparison of list elements.
 
In terms of standardization from the approving side of things, the main concern I have is that due to the level system (and new additions from Scarlet/Violet), every Pokemon's movepool will need to get re-approved. We have a humbly-sized playerbase overall but we still have quite a few active players with 50+ mons and more yet in the 20-50 range. When the approving team needs to get through 500+ mons in a relatively short time frame (so people can get out there and play some Gen 9 BBP in a reasonable amount of time, also not to mention the flood of new purchases that will be made at the start of the gen), it leads me heavily towards a single standardized format, to make the process as smooth and swift as it can be.

I've also been swayed towards categorizing by level as the format of choice. The big reason for me is being easily able to level-down mons movepools when needed.
 
Now that we have a draft of move tiering, we can now start to compare different methods of movepool sorting. Here's Gardevoir's movepool sorted by the three main sorting methods that we've been discussing. Which ones do you think are the most comfortable to order with/against?

Ally Switch
Attract
Body Slam
Calm Mind
Captivate
Charge Beam
Charm
Confide
Confuse Ray
Confusion
Dazzling Gleam
Defense Curl
Destiny Bond
Disable
Disarming Voice
Double Team
Double-Edge
Draining Kiss
Dream Eater
Echoed Voice
Encore
Endure
Energy Ball
Expanding Force
Facade
Fire Punch
Flash
Fling
Focus Blast
Frustration
Future Sight
Giga Impact
Grass Knot
Growl
Grudge
Guard Swap
Headbutt
Heal Bell
Heal Pulse
Healing Wish
Helping Hand
Hidden Power [Ground]
Hyper Beam
Hyper Voice
Hypnosis
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Imprison
Knock Off
Laser Focus
Life Dew
Light Screen
Lucky Chant
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Magical Leaf
Mean Look
Mega Kick
Mega Punch
Memento
Mimic
Misty Explosion
Misty Terrain
Moonblast
Mud-Slap
Mystical Fire
Natural Gift
Nightmare
Pain Split
Power Swap
Protect
Psybeam
Psych Up
Psychic
Psychic Terrain
Psyshock
Rain Dance
Recycle
Reflect
Rest
Return
Round
Safeguard
Secret Power
Shadow Ball
Shadow Sneak
Shock Wave
Signal Beam
Sing
Skill Swap
Sleep Talk
Snatch
Snore
Stored Power
Substitute
Sunny Day
Swagger
Swift
Synchronoise
Taunt
Telekinesis
Teleport
Thief
Thunder Punch
Thunder Wave
Thunderbolt
Torment
Toxic
Trick
Trick Room
Triple Axel
Will-O-Wisp
Wish
Wonder Room
Zen Headbutt
Level 0
Confide
Dazzling Gleam
Defense Curl
Double Team
Energy Ball
Facade
Fire Punch
Flash
Focus Blast
Growl
Hyper Voice
Hypnosis
Ice Punch
Mud-Slap
Protect
Psychic
Round
Shadow Ball
Signal Beam
Sing
Thunder Punch
Thunder Wave
Thunderbolt
Toxic
Zen Headbutt

Level 1
Calm Mind
Confuse Ray
Confusion
Disarming Voice
Echoed Voice
Heal Bell
Magic Coat
Magical Leaf
Mega Punch
Psybeam
Rain Dance
Recycle
Safeguard
Shadow Sneak
Shock Wave
Snore
Sunny Day
Swagger
Swift
Taunt
Trick
Will-O-Wisp

Level 2
Captivate
Charm
Disable
Double-Edge
Dream Eater
Expanding Force
Grass Knot
Heal Pulse
Life Dew
Mega Kick
Misty Explosion
Misty Terrain
Nightmare
Psychic Terrain
Rest
Secret Power
Thief
Triple Axel

Level 3
Body Slam
Charge Beam
Draining Kiss
Encore
Frustration
Guard Swap
Headbutt
Icy Wind
Knock Off
Laser Focus
Light Screen
Lucky Chant
Moonblast
Mystical Fire
Power Swap
Psych Up
Psyshock
Reflect
Return
Telekinesis
Teleport
Torment

Level 4
Ally Switch
Attract
Destiny Bond
Endure
Fling
Future Sight
Giga Impact
Grudge
Healing Wish
Helping Hand
Hidden Power [Ground]
Hyper Beam
Imprison
Magic Room
Mean Look
Memento
Mimic
Natural Gift
Pain Split
Skill Swap
Sleep Talk
Snatch
Stored Power
Substitute
Synchronoise
Trick Room
Wish
Wonder Room
Physical
Body Slam
Double-Edge
Facade
Fire Punch
Fling
Frustration
Giga Impact
Headbutt
Ice Punch
Knock Off
Mega Kick
Mega Punch
Natural Gift
Return
Secret Power
Shadow Sneak
Thief
Thunder Punch
Triple Axel
Zen Headbutt

Special
Charge Beam
Confusion
Dazzling Gleam
Disarming Voice
Draining Kiss
Dream Eater
Echoed Voice
Energy Ball
Expanding Force
Focus Blast
Future Sight
Grass Knot
Hidden Power [Ground]
Hyper Beam
Hyper Voice
Icy Wind
Magical Leaf
Misty Explosion
Moonblast
Mud-Slap
Mystical Fire
Psybeam
Psychic
Psyshock
Round
Shadow Ball
Shock Wave
Signal Beam
Snore
Stored Power
Swift
Synchronoise
Thunderbolt

Status
Ally Switch
Attract
Calm Mind
Captivate
Charm
Confide
Confuse Ray
Defense Curl
Destiny Bond
Disable
Double Team
Encore
Endure
Flash
Growl
Grudge
Guard Swap
Heal Bell
Healing Wish
Heal Pulse
Helping Hand
Hypnosis
Imprison
Laser Focus
Life Dew
Light Screen
Lucky Chant
Magic Coat
Magic Room
Mean Look
Memento
Mimic
Misty Terrain
Nightmare
Pain Split
Power Swap
Protect
Psych Up
Psychic Terrain
Rain Dance
Recycle
Reflect
Rest
Safeguard
Sing
Skill Swap
Sleep Talk
Snatch
Substitute
Sunny Day
Swagger
Taunt
Telekinesis
Teleport
Thunder Wave
Torment
Toxic
Trick
Trick Room
Will-O-Wisp
Wish
Wonder Room


Personally, I find sorting by level to be a bit of a mess. I don't really like looking through five separate lists that aren't really clearly divided by functionality. Would much prefer single list or damage category.
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I have seen mention that Level Sorting would be a requirement for having Level Down-scaling: a system where you'd send Pokemon to battles below their Level "as that Level"; excluding any moves from higher Levels.

In short, this is true. We certainly will never force approvers to approve each send-in to a facility that is down-scaled for movepool correctness, nor would we force the referee to do so. We especially would never force approvers to approve one full movepool "per level" of each Pokemon, like some users have suggested. Imagine such a thing with, say, Gallade or Clefable or Mew. Their profile could easy contain several hundred moves (with each Level's movepool containing the moves of prior Levels) if we did this! We are insistent that each Pokemon's profile list their movepool no more than once, for the sake of keeping approval workload healthy.

That said, Level Down-scaling isn't a mandatory feature for Generation 9's progression system.

There have been some concerns voiced that mustering a team of three whole Pokemon, on-Level to challenge a facility, would be difficult and create weird staggers in progression while you waited for members of a "Level group" to "catch up" to one another. Or that is to say, that Pokemon would be forced to Level in lock-step with other Pokemon to stand a chance at earning their Levels efficiently. The intention is, instead, that teambuilding for progression facilities be somewhat more flexible in terms of each teammate's Level.

***

Refer to this sheet for both general Move Level information, and for two examples of movepool growth: :tyranitar:Tyranitar and :gallade:Gallade. (Which are highly preliminary!! Gen 9 altered some of the functions of these moves, which has ramifications for their Level placement.)

What I want to emphasize here is their growth:
  • :tyranitar:Tyranitar's movepool is concentrated mainly in Level 0; meaning it starts with more than half of its moves. Furthermore, those moves are the most core moves to Tyranitar's viability. Namely, its vast suite of high-powered STAB and coverage moves. As it levels, Tyranitar gains certain key tricks, such as Dig and Block, but its function is almost entirely intact right out of the box. This makes Tyranitar an excellent example of an early bloomer, or a Pokemon whose power growth from Levels is relatively shallow. With Tyranitar, you can conceivably "punch up", or take on Pokemon that are a Level or two higher, quite comfortably.
  • :gallade:Gallade's movepool is rather bare at Level 0, featuring only 28 of its final 133 moves. That is, Gallade starts with less than 30% of the moves it will ever learn! Each new Level offers Gallade a slew of important new options it needs to go toe-to-toe with other Pokemon of its Level. Gallade is the flagship example of a late bloomer, or a Pokemon who cannot effectively take on higher-Level Pokemon.
I point out this property mainly to emphasize: It seems that the majority of Pokemon (though not a vast majority) are early bloomers, movepool-wise. It's entirely feasible, then, to back up a late bloomer like a Level 2 Gallade, with one or more Level 1 early-blooming Pokemon, to challenge a Level 2 Facility. In this scenario, success would promote your Gallade to Level 3 and your backup Pokemon to Level 2, where they could conceivably continue supporting Gallade in promotion or partner up with another Level 2 Pokemon you've been working on. The design intention is that there be a comfortable degree leeway, about one level up or down on average, of viability when challenging content.

***

So with that in mind, please consider movepool sorting options primarily for how convenient they are for approvers. The more additional tools, sorters, filters, and so on a sorting method requires from approvers; the more slowly approvals will happen. This is the main drive behind unifying movepool sorting overall regardless of the method chosen, with each method offering its own additional benefit.

Level Down-scaling should be thought of as perk offered by Level Sorting, and not a mandatory requirement for the next progression system to function. Likewise, simplicity is a perk of Alphabetical Sorting, and speed is (mostly) a perk of Category Sorting.

We'll monitor this conversion up to full Launch, but we will probably go with a single agreed-upon sorting method. Specifically, if no sorting method is found to be the favorite of the majority of players, we'll go with the one found least objectionable to players on average.
 
I was originally team simple alphabetized list, but just because of Lou's above post I have been swayed to the level sorting method.

Based on Lou's above post I do think that Level sorting has a unique advantage over the others that I hadn't considered. If we end up sorting the move masterlists in this way, it allows users to more easily at a glance check the progression possibilities of any given mon which I think will play a part in mon purchasing decisions.

The early and late bloomer-ness of a pokemon is something that is very convenient to have easily viewable.

I'm not opposed to still keeping strict alphabetical, but I strongly prefer it or or levels to move category, and am extremely opposed to learn method organization.
 
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