jrp
Banned deucer.
Terrakion is easier to revenge kill though. It's either easily taken out by Breloom or Scizor. Chomp on the other hand can run Yache to bypass an ice shard. Hence why Cloyster likes going against it ;)
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Garchomp and Sand Veil Discussion
- Thread starter Kevin Garrett
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And in exchange for the lesser priority weakness, Garchomp is more easily revenged by Terrakion and Keldeo, doesn't gain a SpD boost in sand, and its STABs both come with significant drawbacks (lock yourself in or risk an immunity switching in). Also note that if Yache is used to bypass Ice Shard, Chomp is now significantly less powerful than Terrakion, who can use CB or LO.
The two are pretty comparable, but are both perfectly manageable in the current metagame.
Elaborate.
Meh, Sand Veil is something like Hydropump or Stone Edge. You RISK to have hydropump instead of surf because it gives you much more power, even though it can fail. You RISK to give Garchomp or Gliscor an inferior ability that works only sometimes and only in a specific weather to POSSIBLY have an advantage. I don't see it so luck-dominant.
haunter
Banned deucer.
The difference is that you can choose to not run hydro pump and opt for the more reliable, but less powerful, surf, while you can't choose to not miss against SV Garchomp unless you're able to control the weather or you use moves like aerial ace and aura sphere (none of which is really useful against Chomp), or scarf-Machamp...
Bryce
Lun
I'd like to add something.Sand Veil and Hydro Pump are two different luck based things.Sand veil may not always work and hydro pump has such risk as well ,however there's a big difference that is you rely on something with 80% chance vs something with 20% chance and this is one of the reasons which makes Sand Veil so uncompetitive.
You don't think I know Garchomp's stats? And no it is not easy to revenge kill when it has the defenses of swampert. But I digress because I don't care, and I don't have time to suspect, but saying someone does not know something's stats is a pathetic argument.
id just like to echo this a little bit.Stats are not all that make a pokemon and im sure most people will agree the most important stat is speed and although it is good speed its not broken
Ive been using it paired with wobbuffet and it has been very good.you get a free sub on chomp then just hit things HARD.Hp ice will be even more common now and mamo will jump quite high.Maybee an ou return of wieville
it's not like cloyster with a white herb after a shell smash could not do that same thing, that defence is huge
I also think that Sand Veil ban should be the proper path, the reasons have already been stated, Sand Veil is an ability that requires luck, and not skill in order to work, the only ''skill'' you need is to press Substitute and pray to god that the opponent will miss, then proceed to set up, I SERIOUSLY think that even my dog is capable of doing this, this thing is not competitive at all, and I'm sure that the majority here, doesn't want to fight Garchomp under Sand Veil and lose an important tournament match just because sand veil kicked in, I'm pretty sure nobody would like that scenario.
The Sand Veil+Sand Stream ban, a reminiscence of Aldaron proposal it's not the way to go here, as of now, rain has even more usage than sand, by allowing this, the only thing we do is PUNISHING people running a sand teams, in the end the results would be just 2:
1 random dudes who seriously think that a pokèmon can destroy an entire playstyle (albeit, it fucks it up for good, but it isn't an auto-win)
2 even more rain, with a new buddy Garchomp, and, oh, what a coincidence... garchomp learns aqua tail, hmm, I wonder if I can damage for good Skarmory, Bronzong and stuff after a SD under rain, who knows?
I would seriously dislike this 2 scenario, and to me, they are the most important difference in the ''ban sand veil vs ban sand veil+ sand stream argument''
If Cacturne losing Encore and Bullet Seeds in other tiers is a problem (wow, in the past this debate would have never existed since Ou was the principal focus, things really change) sand veil can be simply banned just in ou, and see in the lower tiers if the hax ability that Garchomp possess (and to a lesser extend acrogliscor) is dangerous as much.
tehy
Banned deucer.
To be fair, i think haxorus is sort of better in rain, what with the higher base attack, superpower, the threat of a dragon dance set, and the lack of a quadweakness to ice, although to be fair garchomp gives a great electric immunity, and with thundurus-t and its 145 base spatk running around, resists aren't always enough. Also, STAB eq is nice for other steel-types and a move that deals great damage without locking you in. But i still prefer haxorus over chomp in rain.
Well I suppose that it is a matter of preference, it should be included that Garchomp is faster than Haxorus, sitting at 102, as such he outspeeds thundurus-t and landorus, not to mention better bulk to allow a more easy setup, then again you could also simply use both of them, so that you can weaken checks or counters with one and finish with the other, hmm what was the name... parallels sweepers or something
Its an element of hax that can be removed without altering game mechanics. The other examples you gave are not.
The difference is that I can't Swords Dance and in the same turn you get frozen with no move. Yes, Pokemon has luck, but there is give and take. If I choose to run Hydro Pump instead of Surf, Night Slash instead of Crunch, or Discharge instead of Thunderbolt, I'm deliberately playing the odds completely on my own choice and hoping that it pays off.
Sand Veil makes that choice for you, and in a terrible way. Just as assuredly as some jack-off's Tentacruel burns half my team with zero effort in 3 Scalds, Gliscor, and historically Garchomp, will dodge your 18 different 100% accurate moves, set-up, and sweep your team.
I said this earlier and I'll say it again: People were bringing up Jirachi and Togekiss, and how we allow a 30% chance to act (paraflinch) but won't allow an 80% chance to make a move land. The difference is that Jirachi and Togekiss have to commit every turn to keeping you down. Gliscor and Garchomp merely have to be in sand, which is the second-most popular weather.
Sand Veil makes that choice for you, and in a terrible way. Just as assuredly as some jack-off's Tentacruel burns half my team with zero effort in 3 Scalds, Gliscor, and historically Garchomp, will dodge your 18 different 100% accurate moves, set-up, and sweep your team.
I said this earlier and I'll say it again: People were bringing up Jirachi and Togekiss, and how we allow a 30% chance to act (paraflinch) but won't allow an 80% chance to make a move land. The difference is that Jirachi and Togekiss have to commit every turn to keeping you down. Gliscor and Garchomp merely have to be in sand, which is the second-most popular weather.
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