Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

[Fenikkusu]

I would win.


OUs are clearly better then NUs. But BL and even UU have a fairly decent shot at fighting OUs. I have more trouble vs UUs and BLs because their standards are not plastered in every RMT. Its harder to counter something if you don't know what it does.

I lol'd.

Like I said, in terms of overall power, OUs are better, UU/BL can niche and occasionally do unexpected things, but that's an experience marker, not necessarily indicative of the poke's overall power. Like your almost sweep with a poliwag. Yes, Poliwag can be used to attempt a sweep with bellydrum. It's not going to work most of the time, and you have to plan your team to make it more effective, but it can be done. It would be easier to use a more powerful pokemon in the same slot. That's effectively the difference between OU and the rest of the BL/upper UU/niche pokes.

 

[IggyBot]

I lol'd.

Like I said, in terms of overall power, OUs are better, UU/BL can niche and occasionally do unexpected things, but that's an experience marker, not necessarily indicative of the poke's overall power. Like your almost sweep with a poliwag. Yes, Poliwag can be used to attempt a sweep with bellydrum. It's not going to work most of the time, and you have to plan your team to make it more effective, but it can be done. It would be easier to use a more powerful pokemon in the same slot. That's effectively the difference between OU and the rest of the BL/upper UU/niche pokes.

The thing is, Smogons tier system isn't based on power, it's based on usage. Alakazam is stronger than many of the current OU pokemon, so is Raikou. Hell, Typhlosions Eruption is strong even compared to some of the pokemon in OU. However, none of these pokemon are OU because the current tier system is based on usage, not power.

 

[Fenikkusu]

OUs are popular by definition. They are not inherently more powerful than BLs. UUs are debated to be less powerful than OUs, but only in the UU environment (to retain balance).

For example... Walrein is a UU pokemon who can thrive in an OU environment. Why? Because Abomasnow is OU. With proper support, he can hold his own in an OU environment.

Popularity =/= Power. OU == Popularity.

Further, UU pokemon == less powerful than BLs in the UU metagame. Not necessarily less powerful in OU. UU is a different metagame where Ice isn't as whored as in OU. It is where the top physical walls like Steelix roam free, while the vast majority of Sp. Walls are left alone in OU. Hell, Grumpig, Hypno, and Noctowl are among the best UU's got in Sp. Walling.

It is a different environment in UU, even if the metagame isn't fully developed yet. You can't just compare UU pokemon to BLs in an OU environment... many UU pokemon were brought down because of the interesting aspects in BL. Swellow for example was only brought down because Rock/Steel pokemon like Aggron and Probopass are common walls in UU.

I was using general sweeping statements. Generally speaking, outside of niche pokemon (lol abomasnow/tentacruel), your OU pokemon are more powerful/easier to use than BLs/UUs. That's why they're overused. OU doesn't necessarily equate with power by definition, but at the same time power does have with usage. See: Garchomp vs Flygon. Yes, popularity has something to do with it (lol Obi-clones?), but so does the poke's overall effectiveness. No one is going to say Garchomp/TTar/Salamence/Gyarados aren't overall more powerful than most of UU.

The thing is, Smogons tier system isn't based on power, it's based on usage. Alakazam is stronger than many of the current OU pokemon, so is Raikou. Hell, Typhlosions Eruption is strong even compared to some of the pokemon in OU. However, none of these pokemon are OU because the current tier system is based on usage, not power.

Hi, I'm not talking about power setting tiers. I'm talking about power setting usage, which in turn sets tiers. A subtle difference, but a difference to be sure. If you'll read, you'd see that I said they can be outdone in niche things, throwing one of the strongest fire attacks in the game (possibly scarfed at base 100 speed :O) is typhlosion's niche. Unfortunately, middling attack/lack of comprehensive movepool/SR weak/etc leave him outclassed overall as a sweeper by his later incarnation Infernape.

 

[merubin]

That Smogon's tiers aren't power-based is only a half-truth. Ubers and BL are power-defined. In one sense, the only usage tiers are OU and NU, as UU Pokemon are where they are by virtue not only of being underused, but being underused and not powerful enough to be bumped up to BL.

 

[Max]

Guys, stay on topic. This is about Garchomp, not about the tiers in general. If you don't stay on topic, this thread will be closed. :(

 

[Forsety]

The thing is, Smogons tier system isn't based on power, it's based on usage.

This is inaccurate considering BL's ARE based on power and they're still the standard game. OU's tend to be those who stand out from the bunch and therefore Pokemon you MUST be prepared to counter.

And I really can't be assed repeating myself since I'd be beating a dead horse and I'm going stay on topic with a simple answer.

Garchomp is Uber, its discussed to death and has been proven in practice.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Guys, stay on topic. This is about Garchomp, not about the tiers in general. If you don't stay on topic, this thread will be closed. :(

You close everything :(


Garchomp is not uber. It is rediculously powerful, but so is Porygon Z!

What can switch into Porygon Z? 90% of pokemon are OHKOed by Specs Hyper Beam, and those that aren't are beaten by Nasty Plot or Agility.

Same thing with Salamence, although Calm Cresselia counters him fairly well.

Beating Garchomp is all about making the right move. You may lose a poke in the process of killing Chomp, but you can't 6-0 them all.

 

[IggyBot]

This is inaccurate considering BL's ARE based on power and they're still the standard game. OU's tend to be those who stand out from the bunch and therefore Pokemon you MUST be prepared to counter.

And I really can't be assed repeating myself since I'd be beating a dead horse and I'm going stay on topic with a simple answer.

Garchomp is Uber, its discussed to death and has been proven in practice.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Smogon's OU tier list is based on usage, not power. I don't want to get this topic closed though, so I'm stopping right there.

As far as Garchomp being uber goes, after using it more extensivly (and more varients) I can safely say that I wouldn't mind seeing it banned for a while, although it would hurt several of my recent teams now. I've been using CB Garchomp, and that in itself is almost overpowering. 90% of the time I see my opponent switching in Gliscor, Swampert, Hippowdon, Donphan, or one of the other physically bulky pokemon commonly used, only to be 2HKO'd by Outrage. Sub + Swords Dance is also MUCH more effective that I first realized, many people don't use it right. Scarfchomp, the first Garchomp besides the standard Life Orb SDer has almost become a thing of the past, though it's still one of the best Scarfers around.

Really, the fact that Garchomp can take what is really a limited movepool and turn it into so many effective builds is amazing. Really, uber testing wouldn't do any harm in my opinion, especially after all the OU testing of recently thought to be "ubers"

 

[Bourbon]

Can you run some calcs on Choice Band chomp? If nothing can switch in without getting one or two hit KOed, and you HAVE to let something die to beat it, doesn't that make it broken?

IE, what I mean is, is there any pokemon that can switch into a Choice Banded Outrage, take two of them, and pose a threat to Garchomp in return...?

 

[Pride]

All pokemon having 252/252 Spreads and a boosting nature.

Adamant CBchomp Outrage

Cressilia 47%-55%
Swampert 62%-73%
Hippowdon 50%-59%
Gliscor 56%-66%
Bronzong 31%-36%
Skarmory 27%-32%

I think I'll consider all of those the "counters" to Garchomp or the only pokemon that can try and switch in. The only ones that do not have the potential to be 2hkoed are Skarmory and Bronzong. All Skarmory can do is eat an Outrage and Brave Bird/Whirlwind Garchomp, plus Skarmory is in consisent fear of Fire Blast from Garchomp. Bronzong is probably the safest bet with the ability to Hypnosis/Gyro Ball Garchomp to at least put some dent into Garchomp. Or even make use of HP Ice on Garchomp. Hippowdon has a decent chance of surviving Outrage but can do nothing in return. Cressilia also has a chance of survivial if Sand Storm is not present but as SS in nearly always with Garchomp, Cressilia cant really do anything to this either. Even with Jolly nature, CBOutrage can 2hko all of those (Not a reliable 2hko by any means but still the chance) barring Cressilia and, of course, Bronzong and Skarmory.

I usually rely on a Bronzong to attempt to counter Garchomp and even then a Chain Chomp Fire Blast does about 50-59% to my Sassy Bronzong. A pokemon could be a little overwhelming when it literally has 0 counters in OU... Atleast Poliwrath and Hitmontop can "sort of" counter nearly every Tyranitar or at least Cressilia can counter all of Salamence's potenial sets (CB Crunch does a max of 50% to a 252/252 Def Cressilia btw). I believe the metagame would be a little more varied if we didnt have the Land Shark absolutely tearing threw everything.

 

[Bourbon]

Well, theres the verdict. Basically, Bronzong can come into this thing and HP Ice. That's one whole counter!! Maybe Jirachi could, but EQ owns it. Well, that's that. One whopping counter to CB chomp.

Can standard Starmie switch into this thing? Can Slowbro? Those two are the only things I can think of that might be able to OHKO it and live to tell about it.

CB Chomp vs Starmie: ... 122.04% - 143.75% . This is with 172 HP too!

CB Chomp vs Bold Slowbro: ... 55.84% - 65.48% 2HKOed. LULZ!

CB Chomp vs Bold Suicine: ... 52.72% - 62.13%. 2HKOed 99% of the time.



Just because Suicine, THE BULKIEST WATER has a 1% chance of surivivng, lets find out what his Ice Beam can do!

216 Satk Ice Beam vs Garchomp... 81.28% - 95.81% . Too bad T_T

 

[seds]

EDIT: oops, I took WAY too long to post...

OUTRAGE VS:

-Impish 252 HP 228 def Tangrowth: 50.50% - 59.41% AKA a good chance of a two hit KO.

-Bold cress w/252 HP 112 DEF: 51.80% - 61.04% AKA good chance of 2HKO.

-Bold slowbro 212 HP 252 def: 57.29% - 67.19% Always 2HKO

-Standard Bold 188 HP 252 def Bliss: 85.32% - 100.29% good chance of OHKO.

-Mamoswine with 64 HP: 103.45% - 121.75% POW an OHKO.

- Max HP/DEF impish gliscor: 56.78% - 66.67% 2HKO. All the time.

-Vs max HP/def lax weezing: 61.98% - 72.75% 2HKO,a bit worse than gliscor.

-Bold 252/252 suicine: 52.72% - 62.13%. and that's suicine! 2HKO'd

-Standard relaxed 240 HP 216 def swampert: 64.05% - 75.44% POW 2HKO! Earthquake does this too.


Earthquake VS:

-Choice band metagross 252 HP 12 def: 136.59% - 160.57% POW an OHKO!

-impish max HP/def Ryperior: 75.12% - 88.48% (yes, includes solid rock folks!)

-attacker Rhyperior(252 HP): 99.77% - 117.28% Always an OHKO if the IVs aren't 31, if SR are up, or if it took any prior damage.

-Relaxed 240 HP 216 def swampert: 53.42% - 63.04% almost always 2HKO.

-Relaxed 252 HP bronzong WITH HEATPROOF: 128.99% - 151.78%

-Max HP/DEF fortress: 43.79% - 51.41% 2HKO with rocks up.


Fire Blast VS:

252 HP skarm: 76.65% - 90.12% with 252 satk, 58.08% - 68.56% without investment.

252 HP tangrowth: 81.68% - 96.04% with 252, 61.88% - 73.02% without.

252 HP bronzong:50.00% - 58.88% or 38.17% - 44.67%, half with heatproof, you'll find out right away.

-VS 252 HP FORRY: 84.46% - 99.15% (fire fang) 123.73% - 145.48% (fire blast 0 EVs) 129.10% - 151.98% (flamethrower, 252 satk)


Fire Fang VS relaxed 252 HP bronzong: 52.07% - 61.24% POW 2HKO! 4-5HKO with heatproof...

How's this?

uber enough?

I won't miss garchomp in OU...

-some calcs might accidently be on positive nature, so they may do even more damage than that!

Only bronzong has a chance of surviving this beast.

 

[Raikou]

You close everything :(


Garchomp is not uber. It is rediculously powerful, but so is Porygon Z!

What can switch into Porygon Z? 90% of pokemon are OHKOed by Specs Hyper Beam, and those that aren't are beaten by Nasty Plot or Agility.

Same thing with Salamence, although Calm Cresselia counters him fairly well.

Beating Garchomp is all about making the right move. You may lose a poke in the process of killing Chomp, but you can't 6-0 them all.

Porygon-Z has base 85/70/75 defenses and maxes at 306 speed, meaning it is hard to get in and easily revenge killed. Garchomp has 108/95/85 defenses- better than Swampert's- and can live through 4x effective attacks from his "counters" all day long while being immune to paralysis. And to top it off, Porygon-Z can't win games based on sand veil hax alone. So I'd say that's not a good comparison.

A better comparison is Salamence, who has equal power but is more frail than Garchomp meaning ice beams from tanks and hidden powers from sweepers actually do 1hko. He takes 25% from SR, dies to decently powered Stone Edges and is not immune to paralysis. He is also slow enough to be revenged easily.

A lot of things in OU are uncounterable but Garchomp just has too much of everything.

 

[Bourbon]

Looks like Blue Harvest is the only person still defending chomp.

I just thought of something else: You can ALWAYS switch Spiritomb into a choice Porygon-Z... worst case scenario is you get Ice Beamed. But nothing is immune to Outrage... T_T

 

[seds]

Well, actually Garchomp can still be paralyzed by BODY SLAM and STUN SPORE.

but no one uses stun spore... and nothing is immune to those two types of paralysis except limber things. (assuming body slam is from something with "scrappy")

 

[Blue Harvest]

Looks like Blue Harvest is the only person still defending chomp.

Yeah but i'm sort of half-assing it. I don't really care what happends to Garchomp.

I just thought of something else: You can ALWAYS switch Spiritomb into a choice Porygon-Z... worst case scenario is you get Ice Beamed.

Unless you use Nasty Plot. A +2 Life Orb Ice Beam will rip through Spiritomb. Maybe not in one hit, but definately in two.

But nothing is immune to Outrage... T_T

Steels. Well, they resist it...

 

[Bourbon]

I said a CHOICE Porygon-Z. If it Nasty Plots, you know to get the heck outta there :P

 

[Blue Harvest]

I said a CHOICE Porygon-Z. If it Nasty Plots, you know to get the heck outta there :P

Exactly. But how would you know its Choice Speced?

Porygon Z @ Life Orb
252 SA / 252 Speed
Timid

Nasty Plot
Ice Beam / Agility
Hyper Beam
Shadow Ball

Virtually nothing can switch into it without the fear of instant annihilation. Agility only if Hyper Beam can OHKO Dragons, though with a base power of 300 + Life Orb, it probably can. Its not too hard to get Porygon Z in. Walls don't hurt much. Cresselia is practically set-up bait etc. Also revenge kills on slow pokes like Gallade...


Oh, on Garchomp...


Choice Band Adamant Chomp vs intimidate Mawile

Outrage = 30.59% - 36.18%

I found that funny... Of course, if I switch into any other move then... uhh... Go Ice Punch!

 

[Kingdrom]

I find it funny that the title of this thread states that Garchomp is OU, while everyone except Blue Harvest thinks otherwise.

Garchomp is one of those pokemon that there is no direct counter for. It forces people to think on their feet, predict sets, and switch accordingly. It's the same with Salamence, and, to a lesser extent, Lucario. The choice sets are easy to counter and quite predictable. The CB set is best walled by Bronzong- Hippowodon automatically activates its Sand Veil, which is unfavorable.

The two main sets to watch out for are Sub-Brightpowder and Swords Dance. Sub-Brightpowder sure is annoying, but with only two out of four moves (Fire Blast/Dragon Claw/Earthquake/Fire Fang), it is ultimately walled by either Skarmory/Bronzong or Heatran, both common.

Most of the points have already been stressed to the point of tl;dr, so I'll stop there. The point of having a TEAM and team SYNERGY is that you don't use pokemon A to counter Garchomp, pokemon B to counter Heatran, and so on. They work together to gain resistances and absorb weaknesses. Most of the top sweepers in D/P don't have a 100% counter.

The metagame is a system of pokemon gaining and losing popularity, using different sets. The use of one pokemon just encourages the creation of a new or previously unused set, which changes the metagame. The overuse of said pokemon (in this case Garchomp) needs an adaptation to handle all the common sets.

 

[Raikou]

Virtually nothing can switch into it without the fear of instant annihilation. Agility only if Hyper Beam can OHKO Dragons, though with a base power of 300 + Life Orb, it probably can. Its not too hard to get Porygon Z in. Walls don't hurt much. Cresselia is practically set-up bait etc. Also revenge kills on slow pokes like Gallade...

With its 1 immunity and 85/70/75 defenses, Cresselia and other low powered walls are about the only thing on the OU list it can switch in on, and hopefully not into a thunder wave. It's a glass cannon like Azelf. Theorize all you want, it's not a good comparison with Garchomp for reasons already explained, nor is it used anywhere near as often (#30 on the ladder).

And if for some reason it gets in for free and is allowed to set up, it can still be revenge killed in 1 hit by a great many things. Garchomp is much faster and requires an ice move off of a respectable attack stat to 1hko, and there are variations which can take an ice beam from over 300 SA and still live.

 

[Forsety]

Well, theres the verdict. Basically, Bronzong can come into this thing and HP Ice. That's one whole counter!!

I should point out Bronzong actually has a 50% chance of failing to 2HKO the new Chomp spread. I don't think even Bronzong can last long enough to fire 3 HP Ice's against a +2 STAB Outrage.

It's the same with Salamence, and, to a lesser extent, Lucario. The choice sets are easy to counter and quite predictable.

You forgot to mention speed on top of options. Speed is an incredibly massive issue and Garchomp wouldn't be near as broken if it simply had the same 100 base speed of Salamence or even 80 of Dragonite. As it stands its still outspeeding everything of base 100 without even trying.

With Garchomp you have no choice but to run like the wind. Specsmence is still not that gamebreaking since its still under constant threat from many base 100's. If in a bad situation I'd still be confident leaving in another base 100 and going for a 50% chance of at least harming it.

 

[Blastotle]

Well let's think of it this way. Let's say we were to create another pokemon, this time a 100% Garchomp counter. What sort of beast could accomplish such a feat? It would have to have insane base Defense and at least above average HP, in addition to not getting hit super-effective by Dragon, Ground or Fire (Normal type? Water?). Also decent SpDef to survive Draco Meteor. Then it would have to have either Attack or SpAtk high enough to consistently OHKO with Ice Punch or Ice Beam or something similar.

But this pokemon would be uber, wouldn't it? If it takes something this strong to stop Garchomp in its tracks, it should follow that Garchomp is just too much for OU.

 

[Blue Harvest]

In all the games i've played, Garchomp has only changed the outcome once. It was late game and most of my pokes were dead. Chomp got lucky with sandveil and my Hippowdon's Ice Fang missed. Thus it proceded to slaughter what was left of my team.

8 times out of 10 that wouldn't have happened. 99 times out of 100 Ice Fang would have hit OR I would have had more things left alive to take it down. You shouldn't try to stop Garchomp without losing a poke. If you could, all your games would be 6-0s.

Killing chomp is not hard if you have a revenge killer that can outrun and hit. Slow Scarfed pokes, or fast Speced pokes can OHKO even the bulky Garchomps. Mamoswine can OHKO with Ice Shard when holding Life Orb / Choice Band even if Jolly. Cresselia can switch in on nearly every attack, and even though its kind of screwed against a Swords Dance it can still put a hole in Chomp with Ice Beam. So can Suicune, although in the long run it will probably lose.


I do agree that Brightpowder Garchomp should be banned though. Its just... stupid. Anyone who is proud of a win due to that load of crap should be hit.


FUCK I have a Geography Test Monday.

 

[xcfrisco]

I find it funny that the title of this thread states that Garchomp is OU, while everyone except Blue Harvest thinks otherwise.

This is very much a typo. Can a mod PLEASE PLEASE CHANGE is to in. The title should be most broken pokemon in OU.

And guys, not to complain cause I think its great this topic is still getting replies, but my original post has already addressed almost all of your claims.

I posted this thread to provide my argument and address every claim possible (that I could think of) about Garchomp being Uber. Seriously, if you read the first post, almost everything stated in the last 10 pages has already been talked about in the first post.

One thing to note, it really discontents me when people say the choice sets are easily beat with prediction. THE WHOLE GAME IS EASILY WON WITH PREDICTION. You only have at best a 25% chance of accurately guessing what move Garchomp is gonna use, and that's only if you know his entire moveset. Stop saying the choice items are easily beat with prediction or writing them off, they pretty much run the game (from an offensive stand point)

I've only found TWO good insights on the whole Garchomp isn't broken since this thread got started. The first is MoP saying that pokemon is all about scenario, which is pretty good but I've already addressed that Garchomp pretty much gets his best scenario for free a lot (me and Dragontamer had a pretty lengthy discussion about this a couple pages back.) Second, is the fact that Hail teams shit on Garchomp and are a pretty good answer to SS teams.

Anything new guys?

And for the last time READ THE FIRST POST. This thread isn't about banning Garchomp cause he has no counters. There are A LOT of REASONS (three of them) why I think Garchomp should be Uber, and that's only one of them.

Thanks for keeping the dream alive though.

Snip

I think you're the only not new player who thinks Garchomp is no better than other OU's. Can I see all of your teams that completely handle Garchomp please? You must be winning a million matches if you can easily take care of the #1 used pokemon. Do you ever sacrifice other covereage when you make Garchomp-proof teams?

 

[Bourbon]

If revenge killing is the only sure fire counter for a pokemon, that seems pretty broken to me.