Done Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP12 - Tomohawk

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
:tomohawk:CAP12: Tomohawk Generation 8 Update:tomohawk:
Hello! Welcome to the Generation 8 Tomohawk update thread. In this thread, we will be updating the movepool of one of our past CAP creations to better match the changes Gamefreak made in Generation 8.

A major change that occurred between this update cycle and the last was to significantly narrow the scope of CAP updates. Abilities, statlines, and typings will not be changed during the course of this update. Only changes to a CAP's movepool will be allowed. Additionally, full movepool changes are also off the table, as the Update Leaders will decide where to distribute moves for their respective Pokemon based off logic and the ICC.

Furthermore, we have defined what type of changes are allowed to movepools, as well as the type of moves up for discussion. Movepool changes will be broken down in two categories: removals and additions. Moves that are subject to removal are those that have been rendered unusable in Sword and Shield, such as Pursuit, and past generation tutors and Technical Machiness that are not available as a Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.

We have also defined the following considerations for use in evaluating move removals and additions. The foremost consideration is that any change proposed fits both the flavor of the CAP in question and the flavor of Generation 8 as a whole. This means that all changes should follow trends and precedents seen in Generation 8. Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle. We also wish to avoid the creation of an unbalanced CAP Pokemon. Therefore, the second consideration for move changes is the competitive impact of said changes. Moves that are clearly too powerful will be banned from discussion by the Update Leader.

This update cycle also has a set schedule. For four weeks, each of the seven Update Leaders will post a discussion thread for a single CAP Pokemon. This thread will be used for the discussion of changes to a CAPs movepool as explained in this post. Each thread will have six days reserved for discussion on potential changes to a CAP's movepool. On the seventh day, the Update Leader will collect the ICC and determine what will be changed. Controversial changes will be subject to a poll.

For the discussion of Tomohawk, please refer to the Gen 7 Updated Movepool for the CAP's full movepool. Some other resources the CAP mods have compiled to make discussion easier is this list of cut moves that are distributed to our CAP pokemon, and this list of past TMs that were not included as Gen 8 TMs and TRs. Note that for the TM list, moves with * are those that have been cut entirely.

This thread will be locked until LucarioOfLegends makes their leading post.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Welcome to the third update from yours truly! Be prepared to get rawked, cause up next is our favorite catbird of prey, Tomohawk!

:xy/tomohawk:

Let's have a look at its movepool.

Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move isn't a TM or TR in SWSH, so if we decide that it should be in Tomohawk's Generation 8 movepool, it must be moved in Level Up or Egg Moves (and thus require discussion)
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves



0 Sunny Day
0 Aura Sphere
0 Fury Swipes
0 Harden
4 Scratch
8 Fury Swipes (lv 1 overlap)
13 Harden (lv 1 overlap)

17 Aerial Ace
20 Morning Sun
23 Whirlwind
29 Rain Dance
33 Air Slash
37 Submission
42 Heat Wave
45 Hyper Voice
49 Sky Drop
50 Superpower
51 Hurricane
53 Rest
55 Sky Attack
60 Healing Wish
Baton Pass (Togekiss)
Confuse Ray (Ninetales)
Haze (Quagsire)
Memento (Skuntank)
Nature Power (Shiftry)
Rapid Spin (Excadrill)
Roost (Unfezant)
Stealth Rock (most likely moving to tr)
Yawn (Quagsire)
TM01 Work Up
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic

TM08 Bulk Up
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM19 Roost
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM26 Return
TM27 Earthquake
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM49 Echoed Voice
TM51 Steel Wing
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Flinge
TM58 Sky Drop
TM60 Quash

TM62 Acrobatics
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM76 Fly
TM78 Bulldoze
TM80 Rock Slide
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
TM100 Confide
Secret Power
Incinerate
Retaliate
Flash
Rock Smash
Strength

Power-Up Punch
Aqua Tail
Helping Hand
Iron Tail
Snore


There’s quite a bit to get through, so lets hit some questions:

  1. Out of all the blue moves the only one that really stands out as even moderately useful for Tomohawk is Toxic, although even then its application is not that large. Is this a move we can find a flavorful reason to keep, and if so where should it be placed?
  2. All other blue moves are non competitive in nature, which ones should we keep and where would they be moved?
  3. Going into additions, what moves should we introduce into the movepool that fit flavorfully with Tomohawk? Also consider if the move will have a drastic effect on Tomohawk’s viability when considering a move.

If suggesting a possibly competitive move for an addition, I highly recommend doing some calculations yourself to prove or disprove its competitive usage, or if it will effect Tomo’s checks in some way. Otherwise, go nuts!
 
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- Stealth Rock and Baton Pass should be moved from egg moves to TRs.
- I suggest Roost to replace Sky Drop at level 49.
 

G-Luke

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1. Toxic should be axed, to remain consistent with most Pokémon. Their is nothing toxic about Tomo's flavour, and I'd argue purely on flavour basis it's strictly anti toxic.

2. Some moves I suggest keeping are Rock Smash, Power Up Punch and Quash. Rock Smash and Power Up Punch are basic fighting type moves and can swap out level up moves Fury Swipes and Harden(?). I like Quash because Prankster Quash is very cool in doubles and once CAP Doubles takes over as the M A I N tier it will be good. Seriously though, Quash is just a neat little move that speaks to a little naughty flavour factor that Tomo has due to Prankster being it's ability. It can placed in egg moves to replace SR which would be moved to TRs.

3. Close Combat and Brave Bird are clear cut additions imo. Most Pokémon who gain STAB on these attacks now learn these moves and it is not very competitive due to Tomo's middling attack stat. Reversal is another addition that makes sense. The only new move that I can think of that may impact this slate is Body Press. The check that Body Press impacts is Equilibra - Body Press should hit Levitate Libras harder than Aura Sphere, and gives Tomohawk a means of bypassing Bulletproof Equilibra. Is this something the community and competitive council desires?
 
Tomohawk is very comparable to Hawlucha. A Fighting/Flying bird that got Brave Bird, Close Combat and Body Press this generation. Given these 3 moves fit Tomohawk's lore and now all bird Pokémon get Brave Bird now, it should get these moves.

Additionally, Power-Up Punch can replace Fury Swipes and Retaliate can replace Harden. Lastly, Acrobatics could replace Sky Drop. Scratch can simply be a Level 1 move given Gen 8's common trend of making early level moves just Level 1 moves
 
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Some more addition suggestions that haven't been mentioned yet are Mega Punch, Mega Kick, and Revenge, which have been given to a wide range of Pokemon, especially Fighting-types. Tomohawk's low Attack means these moves won't be used.
 
Some more addition suggestions that haven't been mentioned yet are Mega Punch, Mega Kick, and Revenge, which have been given to a wide range of Pokemon, especially Fighting-types. Tomohawk's low Attack means these moves won't be used.
Throat Chop and Body Slam can be a contender as well. Lots of Fighting-types get those and Tomohawk will never use them LOL
 

snake

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Fury Swipes and Harden aren’t being replaced. They’re just level 1 moves now.
 
Here's my proposed full movepool for Tomohawk! Newly added moves will be bolded.

L1: Sunny Day, Aura Sphere, Fury Swipes, Harden, Scratch
L8: Power-Up Punch
L13: Retaliate
L17: Aerial Ace
L20: Morning Sun
L23: Whirlwind
L29: Rain Dance
L33: Air Slash
L37: Submission
L42: Heat Wave
L45: Hyper Voice
L49: Acrobatics
L50: Superpower
L51: Hurricane
L53: Rest
L55: Sky Attack
L60: Healing Wish
TM00: Mega Punch
TM01: Mega Kick

TM06: Fly
TM08: Hyper Beam
TM09: Giga Impact
TM11: Solar Beam
TM19: Safeguard
TM21: Rest
TM22: Rock Slide
TM23: Thief
TM24: Snore
TM25: Protect
TM30: Steel Wing
TM31: Attract
TM33: Rain Dance
TM34: Sunny Day
TM39: Facade
TM41: Helping Hand
TM42: Revenge
TM43: Brick Break
TM48: Rock Tomb
TM59: Fling
TM76: Round
TM78: Acrobatics
TM79: Retaliate
TM81: Bulldoze
TM94: False Swipe
TM95: Air Slash
TR01: Body Slam
TR10: Earthquake
TR20: Substitute
TR21: Reversal
TR26: Endure
TR27: Sleep Talk
TR29: Baton Pass
TR31: Iron Tail
TR36: Heat Wave
TR37: Taunt
TR39: Superpower
TR42: Hyper Voice
TR48: Bulk Up
TR53: Close Combat
TR56: Aura Sphere
TR64: Focus Blast
TR66: Brave Bird
TR75: Stone Edge
TR76: Stealth Rock
TR77: Grass Knot
TR85: Work Up
TR89: Hurricane
TR95: Throat Chop
TR99: Body Press
Confuse Ray
Haze
Memento
Nature Power
Quash
Rapid Spin
Roost
Yawn

Can Earth Power and Reflect make a comeback this gen LOL. Or we could have a special Ground move alternative in Mud Shot, which is a TM
 
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LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Alright, considering how discussion has slowed down a bit so I am going to put this in 72 hour mode. This thread will close up around this time Saturday, so get those suggestions in before then! I do have some things I want to say though.

-Fury Swipes and Harden are not being completely removed from the movepool. Just that specific part of it. They are still in Level 1 moves as you can see, its just instances of these moves being in two different spots in the movepool are not a thing anymore so the duplicate placements are to be removed. We do not have to replace them with others, but we seem to be alright with doing that.

-Regarding Body Press, its fair game right now for discussion but I will have to delve into the calcs to see if the competitive influence has is too much for our competitive scope. Please discuss more on this move.

-Reflect and Earth Power are banned and not coming back.
 

Empress

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As Snake and others have pointed out, the main benefit that Body Press has is the ability to hit most Equilibra sets much harder.

All else being equal, physically defensive Tomohawk sets are still fairly common, and I've seen most of such sets run Aura Sphere; as a result, I could see Body Press usurping Aura Sphere on such sets. It hits other things marginally harder with investment in Tomohawk's Defense; in the long run of games, that extra 6% of damage could come in handy, but I don't see it being a game breaker.

Ultimately, I don't think Body Press will break Tomohawk, but I do understand if the ability to bypass Equilibra as a check were to give you guys reservations. As a result, I will support Body Press but will not argue with those who oppose.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Sorry for the long wait on the end of this thread, but I think we got something big to cover first. Lets talk Body Press.

Body Press is certainly a competitive move. Most noted of all is its ability to have a reliable stab option against Bulletproof Equilibra on fully defensive sets without having to rely on coverage such as Heat Wave. It is also a stronger option than Aura Sphere on said defensive sets as it does on average about 10% more, although this is dependent on bulk investment. If added, it is absolutely a buff to Tomohawk.

I also think the flavor reasoning brought up in thread is severely lacking in general. I realize this is partially my fault, as closing the thread for a long time did snub a lot of possible discussion on it. However, when the thread was open, there was not that discussion. One post on how it is similar to Hawlucha, but no other in agreement, disagreement, or addition to this in regards to Body Press.

Despite this all, I think it is fine it receives this move. Nothing has shown has shown, despite its competitive nature, that Body Press will be broken. I can also personally justify Body Press flavorfully, most consistently with Obstagoon.

With this in mind, Body Press will be hesitantly passed. But the burden of proof will no longer be on me for flavor.

All that said, lets see the final movepool. Additions and shifts will be in black.

1 Sunny Day
1 Aura Sphere
1 Fury Swipes
1 Harden
1 Scratch
1 Power-Up Punch
13 Rock Smash
17 Aerial Ace
20 Morning Sun
23 Whirlwind
29 Rain Dance
33 Air Slash
37 Submission
42 Heat Wave
45 Hyper Voice
49 Roost
50 Superpower
51 Hurricane
53 Rest
55 Sky Attack
60 Healing Wish
Confuse Ray (Ninetales)
Haze (Quagsire)
Memento (Skuntank)
Nature Power (Shiftry)
Quash (Oranguru)
Rapid Spin (Excadrill)
Yawn (Quagsire)
TM00: Mega Punch
TM01: Mega Kick
TM06: Fly
TM08: Hyper Beam
TM09: Giga Impact
TM11: Solar Beam
TM19: Safeguard
TM21: Rest
TM22: Rock Slide
TM23: Thief
TM24: Snore
TM25: Protect
TM30: Steel Wing
TM31: Attract
TM33: Rain Dance
TM34: Sunny Day
TM39: Facade
TM41: Helping Hand
TM42: Revenge
TM43: Brick Break
TM48: Rock Tomb
TM59: Fling
TM76: Round
TM78: Acrobatics
TM79: Retaliate
TM81: Bulldoze
TM94: False Swipe
TM95: Air Slash
TR01: Body Slam
TR10: Earthquake
TR20: Substitute
TR21: Reversal
TR26: Endure
TR27: Sleep Talk
TR29: Baton Pass
TR31: Iron Tail
TR36: Heat Wave
TR37: Taunt
TR39: Superpower
TR42: Hyper Voice
TR48: Bulk Up
TR53: Close Combat
TR56: Aura Sphere
TR64: Focus Blast
TR66: Brave Bird
TR75: Stone Edge
TR76: Stealth Rock
TR77: Grass Knot
TR85: Work Up
TR89: Hurricane
TR95: Throat Chop
Aqua Tail
Confide
Double Team
Incinerate
Roar
Strength
Swagger
Toxic
 
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LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
Quick Addendum Regarding Body Press:

The above decision was made with consideration of a Pre-HOME metagame, where did not prove to be an issue. However, it came to the attention of one of the other ULs that in a metagame with Pokemon Home, Body Press does indeed pose an issue, mostly in terms of beating Terrakion and its synergy with Bulk Up.

With this in mind, we Update Leaders have decided that Body Press would be an overly competitive and unhealthy addition to Tomohawk. It is no longer available in its final movepool.
 

dhelmise

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Code:
1 - Sunny Day
1 - Aura Sphere
1 - Fury Swipes
1 - Harden
1 - Scratch
1 - Power-Up Punch
13 - Rock Smash
17 - Aerial Ace
20 - Morning Sun
23 - Whirlwind
29 - Rain Dance
33 - Air Slash
37 - Submission
42 - Heat Wave
45 - Hyper Voice
49 - Roost
50 - Superpower
51 - Hurricane
53 - Rest
55 - Sky Attack
60 - Healing Wish
Egg - Confuse Ray
Egg - Haze
Egg - Memento
Egg - Nature Power
Egg - Quash
Egg - Rapid Spin
Egg - Yawn
TM/TR - Mega Punch
TM/TR - Mega Kick
TM/TR - Fly
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Solar Beam
TM/TR - Safeguard
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Rock Slide
TM/TR - Thief
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Steel Wing
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Rain Dance
TM/TR - Sunny Day
TM/TR - Facade
TM/TR - Helping Hand
TM/TR - Revenge
TM/TR - Brick Break
TM/TR - Rock Tomb
TM/TR - Fling
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Acrobatics
TM/TR - Retaliate
TM/TR - Bulldoze
TM/TR - False Swipe
TM/TR - Air Slash
TM/TR - Body Slam
TM/TR - Earthquake
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Reversal
TM/TR - Endure
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Baton Pass
TM/TR - Iron Tail
TM/TR - Heat Wave
TM/TR - Taunt
TM/TR - Superpower
TM/TR - Hyper Voice
TM/TR - Bulk Up
TM/TR - Close Combat
TM/TR - Aura Sphere
TM/TR - Focus Blast
TM/TR - Brave Bird
TM/TR - Stone Edge
TM/TR - Stealth Rock
TM/TR - Grass Knot
TM/TR - Work Up
TM/TR - Hurricane
TM/TR - Throat Chop
 
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