Done Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP3 - Pyroak

Birkal

Birkal

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Hello people! I'm here to guide you through the Pyroak update thread. On this journey, we will take CAP's greatest golden bug and edit its movepool to better match this generations flavor, trends, and precedents. Read the OP for more info on what exactly we'll be discussing.

We're starting discussion by looking at Pyroak's move removals. To ensure discussion is focused and to keep us from being sidetracked constantly by competitiveness debates, the first half of this thread will be used to examine the moves Pyroak may lose, all of which are highlighted blue. When I feel like we've reached a suitable conclusion for those moves, I'll open this thread up to suggestions for move additions. Until then, please refer to the questions included below.

As before, the movepool has been highlighted for ease of use. Refer to this post for the explanation behind Pyroak's level up movepool and other intricacies.

This is the color code for reading the movepool. I will be referring to these color codes throughout this thread.
Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move isn't a TM or TR in SWSH, so if we decide that it should be in Pyroak Generation 8 movepool, it must be moved in Level Up or Egg Moves (and thus requires discussion)
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves
Evolve: Flame Burst [Lvl. 24]
Evolve: Energy Ball [Level 38]
- Double-Edge
- Wood Hammer
- Flare Blitz
- Sweet Scent
- Bullet Seed
5 Ember
10 Leech Seed
14 Synthesis
19 Flame Wheel
23 Seed Bomb
28 Growth
32 Giga Drain
37 Iron Defense
37 Amnesia
41 Heat Crash
46 Flash Cannon
50 Lava Plume
55 Petal Dance
59 Aromatic Mist
64 Zap Cannon
68 Burn Up
Aromatherapy
Counter
Dragon Breath
Fire Spin (Charizard, Turtonator)
Grass Whistle
Grassy Terrain (Venusaur, Meganium, Sceptile, Torterra)
Petal Blizzard (Venusaur, Meganium)
Psybeam
Revenge
Sand Tomb
Water Sport
Block
Dragon Pulse
Earth Power
Giga Drain
Heat Wave
Iron Defense
Iron Head
Iron Tail
Low Kick
Seed Bomb
Snore
Stealth Rock
Synthesis
Worry Seed
Zen Headbutt
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM42 Façade
TM43 Flame Charge
TM44 Rest
TM48 Round
TM50 Overheat
TM53 Energy Ball
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM68 Giga Impact
TM69 Rock Polish
TM75 Swords Dance
TM78 Bulldoze
TM80 Rock Slide
TM82 Dragon Tail
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM90 Substitute
TM91 Flash Cannon
TM93 Wild Charge
TM96 Nature Power
TM100 Confide
Ancient Power (Gen 4 Move Tutor)
Endure (Gen 4 TM58)
Flash (Gen 4 TM70)
Headbutt (Gen 4 Tutor)
Incinerate (Gen 5 / Gen 6 TM59)
Mud-Slap (Gen 4 Move Tutor)
Natural Gift (Gen 4 TM83)
Rock Smash (Gen 4 / ORAS HM06, Gen 5 / XY TM94)
Secret Power (Gen 4 TM43)
Strength (Gen 6 HM04)

Discussion questions:

1. Of the blue highlighted moves in Pyroak's TM and Tutor lists, which moves standout as being worth preserving? Are any of these moves sufficiently flavorful to be transferred to egg moves (if a parent exists) or the level up list?

2. Which moves in general should we preserve for Pyroak? Any you are fine with letting go?
 
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Only two moves are up for debate here

Block can be easily swapped into Egg moves, being learnt from Galarian Slowpoke, while Worry Seed can be swapped in Flame Burst's place as the evo move of Flarelm. If a fire move is preferred, Worry Seed can be dropped and Incinerate from Transfers can replace it instead.

also Birkal
birkal pyroak happytimes
is a much better title
 
Yeah, Pyroak got off easy when it came to the movepool cuts. Of the moves that may potentially be worth keeping, Nature Power could be moved to Egg Moves as a move donated by Tropius or Venusaur (both of which are in the Monster group), Dragon Tail could be an Egg Move as well as plenty of Pokemon in the Dragon Egg group learn it, and Flame Charge could replace the snapped Flame Burst as Flarelm's Evo move. Also echoing G-Luke's suggestion of moving Block into Egg Moves. The rest were frankly pretty useless on Pyroak and wouldn't do much harm to its viability if they were to be removed.
 
Not much else to say other than Toxic should be dropped for flavor/trend reasons. Pyroak isn't a Poison-type and isn't based on anything poisonous.
 
- Fire Spin, Sand Tomb and Revenge are TM/TRs and should be removed from the egg move pool.
- Moreover, Psybeam does not seem to ever have been available to anything in the Monster or Dragon groups so I guess it should be removed altogether.
- Either Incinerate or Flame Charge seem fine as a replacement for Flame Burst.
- Snorlax is a viable parent for Block, if it is decided to be kept.
 
Alright this thread's been dead for a week. Here is my proposed full movepool for Pyroak! New moves are bolded

L1: Flame Charge, Energy Ball, Double-Edge, Wood Hammer, Flare Blitz, Sweet Scent, Bullet Seed
Evo.: Flame Charge, Energy Ball
L5: Ember
L10: Leech Seed
L14: Synthesis
L19: Flame Wheel
L23: Seed Bomb
L28: Growth
L32: Giga Drain
L37: Iron Defense, Amnesia
L41: Heat Crash
L46: Flash Cannon
L50: Lava Plume
L55: Petal Dance
L59: Aromatic Mist
L64: Zap Cannon
L68: Burn Up
TM08: Hyper Beam
TM09: Giga Impact
TM10: Magical Leaf
TM11: Solar Beam
TM12: Solar Blade
TM13: Fire Spin
TM17: Light Screen
TM19: Safeguard
TM21: Rest
TM22: Rock Slide
TM24: Snore
TM25: Protect
TM28: Giga Drain
TM31: Attract
TM34: Sunny Day
TM38: Will-O-Wisp
TM39: Facade
TM40: Swift
TM42: Revenge
TM48: Rock Tomb
TM49: Sand Tomb
TM50: Bullet Seed
TM76: Round
TM81: Bulldoze
TM88: Grassy Terrain
TM92: Mystical Fire
TR00: Swords Dance
TR02: Flamethrower
TR07: Low Kick
TR10: Earthquake
TR15: Fire Blast
TR17: Amnesia
TR19: Tri Attack
TR20: Substitute
TR26: Endure
TR27: Sleep Talk
TR31: Iron Tail
TR36: Heat Wave
TR43: Overheat
TR46: Iron Defense
TR55: Flare Blitz
TR59: Seed Bomb
TR62: Dragon Pulse
TR65: Energy Ball
TR67: Earth Power
TR69: Zen Headbutt
TR70: Flash Cannon
TR71: Leaf Storm
TR74: Iron Head
TR76: Stealth Rock
TR77: Grass Knot
TR79: Heavy Slam
TR86: Wild Charge
TR88: Heat Crash
TR94: High Horsepower
TR99: Body Press
 
Thanks to everyone for the help! I agree that I don't think there's much we need to change here. I took general recommendations from MaahirMomtaz12 and modified it a bit. Namely, I kept all of the new Grass-type STABs proposed, but removed Mystical Fire for competitive reasons, and the weight-based moves because Pyroak isn't really built on being this big heavy thing. If y'all feel that I'm being to stingy, let me know. Otherwise, I'll close this up in around 48 hours.

L1: Flame Charge, Energy Ball, Double-Edge, Wood Hammer, Flare Blitz, Sweet Scent, Bullet Seed
Evo.: Flame Charge, Energy Ball
L5: Ember
L10: Leech Seed
L14: Synthesis
L19: Flame Wheel
L23: Seed Bomb
L28: Growth
L32: Giga Drain
L37: Iron Defense, Amnesia
L41: Heat Crash
L46: Flash Cannon
L50: Lava Plume
L55: Petal Dance
L59: Aromatic Mist
L64: Zap Cannon
L68: Burn Up
TM08: Hyper Beam
TM09: Giga Impact
TM10: Magical Leaf
TM11: Solar Beam
TM12: Solar Blade
TM13: Fire Spin
TM17: Light Screen
TM19: Safeguard
TM21: Rest
TM22: Rock Slide
TM24: Snore
TM25: Protect
TM28: Giga Drain
TM31: Attract
TM34: Sunny Day
TM38: Will-O-Wisp
TM39: Facade
TM40: Swift
TM42: Revenge
TM48: Rock Tomb
TM49: Sand Tomb
TM50: Bullet Seed
TM76: Round
TM81: Bulldoze
TM88: Grassy Terrain
TR00: Swords Dance
TR02: Flamethrower
TR07: Low Kick
TR10: Earthquake
TR15: Fire Blast
TR17: Amnesia
TR20: Substitute
TR26: Endure
TR27: Sleep Talk
TR31: Iron Tail
TR36: Heat Wave
TR43: Overheat
TR46: Iron Defense
TR55: Flare Blitz
TR59: Seed Bomb
TR62: Dragon Pulse
TR65: Energy Ball
TR67: Earth Power
TR69: Zen Headbutt
TR70: Flash Cannon
TR71: Leaf Storm
TR74: Iron Head
TR76: Stealth Rock
TR77: Grass Knot
TR86: Wild Charge
TR88: Heat Crash
 
I am not even memeing. But what about Dragon Dance?

It is a move that has seen distribution amongst several Pokémon of similar design. Its not a competitive addition either, as Pyroak simply lacks the stats to fully utilize it. I understand that Dragon Dance has some controversial history on Pyroak, but that version of Pyroak isnt what exists now, and at best this just a neat little callback to a piece of CAP history.

Free Dragon Dance Pyroak.
 
Dragon Dance fits its reptilian like design, cause Pokémon like Salazzle have access to it now, as well as classics like Charizard. High Horsepower fits it as well because of its bulky body structure, and Body Press for that Fighting coverage and its high Defense stat
 
In regards to the heavy moves, Pyroak already learns Heat Crash via level up and sits at a beefy 370 lbs, so it learning the other "heavy" moves certainly isnt a stretch. Pyroak already learns better coverage moves of the same typings (not including Body Press), so I heavily support the additions of Heavy Slam and High Horsepower.

Body Press though, is where I kinda have issue. Like, Roak knows Iron Defense. It can easiky run a SpD set with ID + Body Press and be annoyingly effective. I'd rather play it safe and skip out on Body Press.
 
I'm not really interested on adding any of those moves unless others agree that they would make for a convincing update process. Dragon Dance is too meme-y, imo, as it was such a point of contention during the previous update round, and you KNOW people would try to make sets with it (bad ones). And as far as the weight-based moves go, Heat Crash is STAB, so I can see it pretty easily, but not necessarily ones that aren't in its STAB. Do other mons get Heavy Slam and High Horsepower outside of their STAB frequently?
 
Yes in fact. Heavy Slam and High Horsepower actually have more distribution amongst pokemon with non STAB on the move than vice versa, especially Heavy Slam.


&https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Heavy_Slam_(move)

https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Heavy_Slam_(move)

In regards to Dragon Dance, being too "memey" shouldn't be reasonable enough justification to deny the move. In fact, purely from a flavour standpoint, its extremely hard to argue why it shouldn't have the move. Pyroak is a reptilian Pokemon with draconian features thanks to its Dragon egg group. It gaining Dragon Dance along side its brethren should be a given. And lets be real here - Dragon Dance Pyroak would be hot garbage. Its too sow to capitalize on the speed boost and 70 Attack at +1 isn't denting anything. Saying that you would the to face it on ladder is just not solid enough reasoning to be, especially since it isn't some bad that can swing matchups - its just a bad set that is easily taken advantage off by any competent competitive pokemon player (It just folds to Rotom-Heat amongst so much more). As I said, I can understand the bad blood behind why someone would dislike DD Roak, but its just an excellent flavour addition.

So TL;DR
PLEASE GIVE THE DRAGON IN A HULA GRASS SKIRT THAT HULA DANCERS WEAR DRAGON DANCE and also the weight moves too that would be nice (not bpres)
 
In that case, I'm happy to add both (even though you linked Heavy Slam twice). I don't think either would see a lot of competitive use, yah?

I'd like to see what others have to say about Dragon Dance too. This provides a pretty good discussion about DD Pyroak and why it was as good as it was for its metagame back in DPP. Obviously mons is way different now, but I think it's something worth considering. I tend to be pretty strict on design philosophy in general, but if people feel that DD would really not have any significant usage on Pyroak, I'm ok with adding it back in. I didn't mention anything in my post about "not wanting to see it on the ladder" as you put it. I just don't feel great about adding a move that is sort of noob-bait when it comes to teambuilding, combined with it being only moderately flavorful (obviously subjective, but it is my opinion).
 
As long as Pyroak still has Rock Head, Flare Blitz, and Wood Hammer, I feel that Dragon Dance will see at least some use. Aurumoth and Naviathan, while viable, aren't the best Pokemon in the metagame. While Pyroak has better things to do, the move would still see use; this phenomenon already exists with Dragapult. It might be in the Dragon Egg Group, but not everything in said Egg Group gets the move. It's a move I kinda want to support based on the meme value alone, but I do feel that it'd do more harm than good, ultimately.
 
Empress said:
As long as Pyroak still has Rock Head, Flare Blitz, and Wood Hammer, I feel that Dragon Dance will see at least some use. Aurumoth and Naviathan, while viable, aren't the best Pokemon in the metagame. While Pyroak has better things to do, the move would still see use; this phenomenon already exists with Dragapult. It might be in the Dragon Egg Group, but not everything in said Egg Group gets the move. It's a move I kinda want to support based on the meme value alone, but I do feel that it'd do more harm than good, ultimately.
Click to expand...

The big difference between Pyroak and those Pokemon is that Dragon Dance are viable options on those mons, even if its not their best option (I'd argue it is Naviathan's best option too). DDance Pult with the right support can pull off cheesy wins. DDance Moth is a legitimate, if not unexplored, set. Only way you lose to DDance Pyroak is if you let yourself lose. Its a set that the user themselves are punished for by simply using it. Besides, if a new user used it, whats the harm? At best you get a free win, and DDance or not, CAP ladder is degenerate in regards to its sets used (I still face non Mountaineer Syclant and Voodoom all the time).
 
CAP newcomer who's been lurking for a bit and reading old threads.
While Dragon Dance Pyroak sounds fine I'm just wondering if it violates this:
reachzero said:
Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle.
Click to expand...
While this is hardly rebalancing in any way, you would be hard pressed to not call this a buff, however small.
And Pyroak does have the bulk to potentially get off multiple Dragon Dances, whereupon its 60 base speed becomes an actual threat, taking it past the entire unboosted meta at +2 when Adamant. Its pitiful base 70 Attack can be overcome by getting to +2 and holding a Life Orb (keep in mind Clefable only gets 95 base Spa, and we all know what that does).
So there are some issues to address here. While there most certainly are flaws and plenty of checks to this set, are we ok with it doing this?
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pyroak Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 173-204 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
On the other hand, that is two turns of setup that can be simply Hazed away so... It's probably bad, but are we ok with the option existing?
 
Toxapex example is flawed because first thing Pex does after switching into DDOak is Haze.
Dragon Dance is not a competitive move on Pyroak as it presently exists. Pyroak can't afford not to invest in defenses and the set has minimum or no surprise value. Pyroak already suffers from 4MSS, and Dragon Dance rejiggering what it wants to use doesn't help it.
 
Deck Knight said:
Toxapex example is flawed because first thing Pex does after switching into DDOak is Haze.
Dragon Dance is not a competitive move on Pyroak as it presently exists. Pyroak can't afford not to invest in defenses and the set has minimum or no surprise value. Pyroak already suffers from 4MSS, and Dragon Dance rejiggering what it wants to use doesn't help it.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think it just shows it isn't exactly going to be breaking stuff any time soon even under ideal circumstances. Anyone who disagrees with Dragon Dance, speak now or forever hold your peace.
 
I agree that DDance wouldn’t be viable enough to make an impact, so I support it. Also, Pyroak definitely deserves Body Press. All of the other body press users generally are either large or have a high Def stat, and Pyroak fits both categories. Even Torkoal gets Body Press. As for Iron Defense + Body Press, only a few mons can pull it off, like Corviknight, which has significantly better defensive typing and reliable recovery, and Kommo-o, who gets STAB. I don’t ever see anyone use BP+ID on something like Ferrothorn, so I don’t think BP would be overwhelming on Pyroak, especially considering it would have to compete with WoW, Leech Seed, SR, and STABs for a moveslot.
 
We're done here. I put Dragon Dance in the movepool because I feel the community consensus is for it, even though I still think it's a bad idea. Still, everything else looks good! I took a lot of notes from the community and added Flame Charge as Flarelm's level-up move. High Horsepower and Heavy Slam were both added. A few more gimmies are in there, like Solar Blade and Swift.

Let me know if I messed up something here. Otherwise, we're moving on!

Evolve: Flame Charge [Level 24]
Evolve: Energy Ball [Level 38]
1 Double-Edge
1 Wood Hammer
1 Flare Blitz
1 Sweet Scent
1 Bullet Seed
1 Ember
1 Leech Seed
14 Synthesis
19 Flame Wheel
23 Seed Bomb
28 Growth
32 Giga Drain
37 Iron Defense
37 Amnesia
41 Heat Crash
46 Flash Cannon
50 Lava Plume
55 Petal Dance
59 Aromatic Mist
64 Zap Cannon
68 Burn Up
Aromatherapy
Block (Snorlax, Galarian Slowbro)
Counter
Dragon Breath
Nature Power (Venusaur, Tropius)
Petal Blizzard (Venusaur, Meganium)
TM08: Hyper Beam
TM09: Giga Impact
TM10: Magical Leaf
TM11: Solar Beam
TM12: Solar Blade
TM13: Fire Spin
TM17: Light Screen
TM19: Safeguard
TM21: Rest
TM22: Rock Slide
TM24: Snore
TM25: Protect
TM28: Giga Drain
TM31: Attract
TM34: Sunny Day
TM38: Will-O-Wisp
TM39: Facade
TM40: Swift
TM42: Revenge
TM48: Rock Tomb
TM49: Sand Tomb
TM50: Bullet Seed
TM76: Round
TM81: Bulldoze
TM88: Grassy Terrain
TR00: Swords Dance
TR02: Flamethrower
TR07: Low Kick
TR10: Earthquake
TR15: Fire Blast
TR17: Amnesia
TR20: Substitute
TR26: Endure
TR27: Sleep Talk
TR31: Iron Tail
TR36: Heat Wave
TR43: Overheat
TR46: Iron Defense
TR51: Dragon Dance
TR55: Flare Blitz
TR59: Seed Bomb
TR62: Dragon Pulse
TR65: Energy Ball
TR67: Earth Power
TR69: Zen Headbutt
TR70: Flash Cannon
TR71: Leaf Storm
TR74: Iron Head
TR76: Stealth Rock
TR77: Grass Knot
TR79: Heavy Slam
TR86: Wild Charge
TR88: Heat Crash
TR94: High Horsepower
 
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Tutor moves don't exist in Sword/Shield outside of Draco Meteor/other exclusive moves. Adding onto what Menshay said regarding Psybeam, nothing in Pyroak's egg groups learns Psybeam in gens 4, 7, or 8, and Pyroak only learns it via breeding in those generations. I would suggest changing it to a levelup move in all three generations or straight up removing it.

Nothing in Pyroak's egg groups that's legal in SS learns Sand Tomb, outside of Pajantom, and Pajantom only learns it from breeding. Therefore, there are not valid fathers in SS as far as I know.

Alternatively, you could change Pyroak's egg groups since we know some Pokemon got their egg groups changed from USM to SS, but that would completely ruin its egg moves.
 
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Sorry guys — life is insane. Fixed all of the above; I removed Psybeam altogether because it’s far from consequential to Pyroak’s movepool. I’m gonna lock this, but message me if you have any other questions.
Kris Menshay

Also, Metronome is bad and you should feel bad.
 
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