Done Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP7 - Kitsunoh

Birkal

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Hello people! I'm here to guide you through the Kitusunoh update thread. On this journey, we will take CAP's greatest golden bug and edit its movepool to better match this generations flavor, trends, and precedents. Read the OP for more info on what exactly we'll be discussing.

We're starting discussion by looking at Kitsunoh's move removals. To ensure discussion is focused and to keep us from being sidetracked constantly by competitiveness debates, the first half of this thread will be used to examine the moves Kitsunoh may lose, all of which are highlighted blue. When I feel like we've reached a suitable conclusion for those moves, I'll open this thread up to suggestions for move additions. Until then, please refer to the questions included below.

As before, the movepool has been highlighted for ease of use. Refer to this post for the explanation behind Kitsunoh's level up movepool and other intricacies.

This is the color code for reading the movepool. I will be referring to these color codes throughout this thread.
Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move isn't a TM or TR in SWSH, so if we decide that it should be in Kitsunoh Generation 8 movepool, it must be moved in Level Up or Egg Moves (and thus requires discussion)
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves

1 Bullet Punch
1 Scratch
1 Tail Whip
Evolution: Metal Claw
6 Lick
10 Odor Sleuth
14 Feint Attack

18 Shadow Sneak
22 Copycat
27 Fake Out
31 Hone Claws
35 Shadow Claw
39 Revenge
43 Iron Head
48 Shadow Strike
52 Memento
56 Perish Song
Curse (now learned through the sequence of Onix -> Cunfant -> Kitsunoh)
Defog (now learned through Farfetch'd)
Feather Dance (now learned through the sequence of Hawlucha -> Farfetch'd -> Kitsunoh
Flail (now learned from Swinub)
Hex (Vulpix)
Iron Tail (now learned from Onix)
Metal Sound (now learned from Lucario)
Meteor Mash (now learned from Lucario)
Play Rough (now learned from Persian)
Psycho Shift (now learned through the sequence of Xatu -> Woobat -> Kitsunoh)
Sucker Punch (now learned from Diglett)
Wish (now learned from sequence of Togetic -> Togedemaru -> Kitsunoh)
Yawn (now learned from Wooper)
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic

TM10 Hidden Power

TM11 Sunny Day
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM32 Double Team
TM41 Torment

TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM63 Embargo
TM65 Shadow Claw
TM66 Payback
TM68 Giga Impact
TM77 Psych Up
TM78 Bulldoze
TM85 Dream Eater
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM91 Flash Cannon
TM92 Trick Room
TM97 Dark Pulse
TM100 Confide
Endeavor
Foul Play
Fury Cutter (G4)
Headbutt (G4)

Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Iron Defense
Iron Head (new level-up move)
Iron Tail (new egg move)
Knock Off
Last Resort

Low Kick
Magic Coat
Ominous Wind (G4)
Pain Split
Snatch

Snore
Spite
Sucker Punch (moved to Egg)
Super Fang
Superpower
Thunder Punch
Trick
Captivate (G4 TM78)
Cut (HM01)

Dig (G4-6 TM28)
Flash (G4-6 TM70)
Hone Claws (G5-6 TM01)
Natural Gift (G4 TM83)

Retaliate (G5-6 TM67)
Secret Power (G4 TM43/ORAS TM94)
Telekinesis (G5 TM19)


Discussion questions:

1. Of the blue highlighted moves in Kitsunoh's TM and Tutor lists, which moves standout as being worth preserving? Are any of these moves sufficiently flavorful to be transferred to egg moves (if a parent exists) or the level up list?

2. Which moves in general should we preserve for Kitsunoh? Any you are fine with letting go?

3. PLEASE DO NOT TALK ABOUT SHADOW STRIKE YET. We'll get there over the weekend. For now, let's focus on the rest of Kitsunoh's movepool.
 
As an odd case, all cut Blue TM's from an optic base of Flavour could be kept for this spooky pokemon.

Pain Split and Spite I think could be moved from Tutors elsewhere. Hone Claws could be happily swapped in IMHO - perhaps Hone Claws in place of Odor Sleuth (accuracy theme) and Pain Split for the auto hit damage that comes from it's Shared Pain.

Spite could be an Egg Move: Vulpix, Ghastly etc
 
Hex, Iron Tail and Play Rough are TM/TRs, so for consistency they should be removed from the egg move list.
 

Deck Knight

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Kitsunoh is one of the lucky ones that didn't get affected much by the move reshuffling.

Of the moves to keep, I think Spite makes the most sense out of any, and then I like Double Team. It has greatly reduced distribution, but is on a few Ghosts and on Purrloin and other small, agile mammals like Purrloin and Pikachu. Kitsunoh seems like a middle ground of all those Pokemon.

After some checking, it seems like a lot of the Pokemon that lost Feint Attack picked up Assurance instead. Yes, I know it's a TM as well, but I think putting Spite at Level 10 and Assurance at Level 14, Double Team in Egg Moves, and scrap the rest. Knock Off lost a ton of distribution. Pain Split by contrast seems like more defensive Pokemon get it.
 

Dogfish44

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Looking through our moves in Blue, Torment, Spite, Double Team, and Knock Off all look fun. The latter two might be dubious - but the former plays up the Illusion angle that you often get with Kitsune, and the latter is linked to foxes via Thievul (who even has a mask as well!).

In terms of where to place them - I think we can free up some space, as well as adapt to adjusted flavour notms. First of all, I'd move Metal Claw to either slot (Probably Level 14), then move Shadow Strike to be the Evolution Move (and, naturally, replace the associated Heart Scale move - see further down) - this is in part to make the Sig move the Evo move (fairly standard), but also gives us more wiggle room in terms of levels. My gut says Double Team at Level 10, and then Spite at L48, but you have the flexibility to also do things like bring in stronger Egg Moves to the L48 slot.

Now, as a final point (I'll think about TMs/TRs later), looking at Kitsunoh's movepool, it appears as though Bullet Punch was added as a "Heart Scale" move, in spite of the fact that... uh... there haven't been enough L1 moves added to make that actually happen (This is something that happened fairly often on older CAPs, probably because level up moves are ruddy weird and nobody had figured them out). Metal Claw, our Evolution Move, is also conspicuously absent. The good news is, we can fix this - and prevent my aneurysms - fairly quickly, especially with G8 changes to movepool structure. So I'm gonna post an updated G8 style structure below (I've not made any changes like subbing in Double Team, literally just improving the blank template);

1 Metal Claw
1 Bullet Punch
1 Scratch
1 Tail Whip
1 Lick
1 ???
Evolution: Metal Claw
14 ???
18 Shadow Sneak
22 Copycat
27 Fake Out
31 Hone Claws
35 Shadow Claw
39 Revenge
43 Iron Head
48 Shadow Strike
52 Memento
56 Perish Song


The former ??? will be learnt at L10 (Presumably) by Kit Jr, so that's worth remembering as we go. Any other Heart Scale moves can be placed after Bullet Punch, but before Scratch.
 

Birkal

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I think Deck Knight and Dogfish44 have the right idea here. Let's go ahead and fill in some of those blanks.

1 Metal Claw
1 Bullet Punch
1 Scratch
1 Tail Whip
1 Lick
1 Torment
Evolution: Metal Claw
14 Spite
18 Shadow Sneak
22 Copycat
27 Fake Out
31 Hone Claws
35 Shadow Claw
39 Revenge
43 Iron Head
48 Shadow Strike
52 Memento
56 Perish Song

Double Team will be added to Egg Moves. Otherwise, we should be pretty set to go here! Does anyone have any final remarks, questions, or thoughts? Do we want to address Shadow Strike at all, or just continue keeping it? I'd like to get this closed up in 48 hours, so speak now!
 

Deck Knight

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Double Team will be added to Egg Moves. Otherwise, we should be pretty set to go here! Does anyone have any final remarks, questions, or thoughts? Do we want to address Shadow Strike at all, or just continue keeping it? I'd like to get this closed up in 48 hours, so speak now!
I generally feel like Shadow Bone would be a perfectly suitable replacement for Shadow Strike without the weird 50/50 procs Shadow Strike often generated. Shadow Strike was made in a different time and while Ghost still doesn't have well distributed one-turn physical attacking options, Shadow Bone approximates Shadow Strike's power and secondary effect without being a custom. If any move should get a cut and moved to archive with the other removed attacks, it's Shadow Strike.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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I actually disagree with Deck. I at the moment think we should keep Shadow Strike on Kitsunoh instead of replacing it with Shadow Bone for mostly one big reason: Nothing in Sword and Shield actually learns Shadow Bone.

Yes I think that when it does become available it would be a good addition over Shadow Strike since they would be very similar and get rid of the weird 50% defense drop which is totally wack. However, literally jack all learns this move since its sole proprietor, Alolan Marowak, was cut by Dexit. This puts it in my opinion in very similar territory to other moves like Tail Glow and Milk Drink that are coded in the game and technically work, they aren't on anything and thus can't really be used.

I think this is the most consistent decision with how Updates has gone so far. CAPs like Syclant and Aurumoth lost Tail Glow because they are technically unusable, but why should we give a different CAP a different move that can't be used in-game if others are being cut from movepools?
 
I generally feel like Shadow Bone would be a perfectly suitable replacement for Shadow Strike without the weird 50/50 procs Shadow Strike often generated. Shadow Strike was made in a different time and while Ghost still doesn't have well distributed one-turn physical attacking options, Shadow Bone approximates Shadow Strike's power and secondary effect without being a custom. If any move should get a cut and moved to archive with the other removed attacks, it's Shadow Strike.
Shadow Bone is currently disabled as explained above so it can't really be added to Kitsunoh at this point in time. As far as Ghost type physical moves there are a few alternatives but the situation is overall pretty dire.

Shadow Punch is boosted by Iron Fist but overall pathetically weak even factoring in the boost. It is 78 base power after Iron Fist, without a secondary effect, so that's pretty shitty to say it bluntly.

Spectral Thief is exclusive of a mythical Pokémon and that's already a big no (unless specifically allowed during the initial process I guess), but it is also an extremely strong move that would warp Kitsunoh and potentially the entire metagame around it. Any physical setup sweeper slower than a scarfed 110, which is basically every setup sweeper currently available, would have to be scared of Kitsunoh stealing their Dragon Dances and counter sweeping.

Spirit Shackle is slightly weaker than Shadow Strike but has a strong trapping effect that would probably change Kitsunoh's role too much. It also would infringe on Pajantom's niche and possibly make it obsolete, for what is worth.

My proposal is to keep Shadow Strike for now, but replace it as soon as Shadow Bone, or really any good enough alternative that doesn't alter too much Kitsunoh's role, is available. Since they are adding Pokémon with updates this actually seems like a plausible scenario to happen in the middle of a generation. In the meantime we could maybe consider nerfing Shadow Strike.
 
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How much changes Kitsunoh's move pool or standard sets if Sheer Force Replaces Tough Claws, and Shadow Strike is replaced with Spirit Shackle? I mean obvious from a straight damage, it is an uptick of Steel AND ghost Stabs, as well as Uturn, which was not touched before, but does it affect match ups in a negative way?

While I appreciate this a moveset change, one thing I do like about CAP is how it tries to keep it not only within OU balance, but also with Game Mechanics things like Rebound, Mountaineer and Shadow Strike I would be happy with finding similar if not equal replacements, even if that means a competitive implications, up or down.
 

Dogfish44

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How much changes Kitsunoh's move pool or standard sets if Sheer Force Replaces Tough Claws, and Shadow Strike is replaced with Spirit Shackle? I mean obvious from a straight damage, it is an uptick of Steel AND ghost Stabs, as well as Uturn, which was not touched before, but does it affect match ups in a negative way?

While I appreciate this a moveset change, one thing I do like about CAP is how it tries to keep it not only within OU balance, but also with Game Mechanics things like Rebound, Mountaineer and Shadow Strike I would be happy with finding similar if not equal replacements, even if that means a competitive implications, up or down.
Adding one of the strongest trapping moves to Kitsunoh seems like a *choice* to be frank. It's certainly a competitive change, and one I can't personally ever view as positive for Kitsunoh.

My two cents: Keep Shadow Strike. Strong stat lowerers now have precedent in the form of Apple Acid, and in Generation 8 (as has been the case for a while tbh) having some form of signiature move seems to be the standard for Pokemon, so I see no massive issue from letting Kitsunoh remain part of those ranks.
 
All we need to finalize now are the TMs and TRs. It'll obviously have Steel Beam since all Steel-types get it but anyway here's my proposed list!

TM04: Ice Punch
TM05: Thunder Punch
TM08: Hyper Beam
TM09: Giga Impact
TM15: Dig
TM19: Safeguard
TM21: Rest
TM23: Thief
TM24: Snore
TM25: Protect
TM27: Icy Wind
TM31: Attract
TM33: Rain Dance
TM34: Sunny Day
TM38: Will-O-Wisp
TM39: Facade
TM56: U-turn
TM57: Payback
TM59: Fling
TM65: Shadow Claw
TM70: Trick Room
TM76: Round
TM77: Hex
TM79: Retaliate
TM81: Bulldoze
TM86: Phantom Force (All Ghost-types get this now, and it's inferior to Shadow Strike)
TM94: False Swipe
TR07: Low Kick
TR10: Earthquake
TR20: Substitute
TR26: Endure
TR27: Sleep Talk
TR31: Iron Tail
TR33: Shadow Ball
TR37: Taunt
TR38: Trick
TR39: Superpower
TR46: Iron Defense
TR53: Close Combat (Other quadrupedals get this move, like Arcanine, Solgaleo, and Zacian, but this can be discussed)
TR58: Dark Pulse
TR70: Flash Cannon
TR74: Iron Head
TR81: Foul Play
TR90: Play Rough
 
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Birkal

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That wraps up our time here! I'm going to keep Shadow Strike present for the reasons presented by LucarioOfLegends, so we can wrap back around to this once/if Shadow Bone is released. I took the recommendation by Menshay and removed Hex, Iron Tail, and Play Rough from egg moves since they are in tutors.

1 Metal Claw
1 Bullet Punch
1 Scratch
1 Tail Whip
1 Lick
1 Torment
Evolution: Metal Claw
14 Spite
18 Shadow Sneak
22 Copycat
27 Fake Out
31 Hone Claws
35 Shadow Claw
39 Revenge
43 Iron Head
48 Shadow Strike
52 Memento
56 Perish Song
Curse (Onix to Cufant)
Defog (Farfetch'd)
Feather Dance (Hawlucha to Farfetch'd)
Flail (Swinub)
Metal Sound (Lucario)
Meteor Mash (Lucario)
Psycho Shift (Xatu to Woobat)
Sucker Punch (Diglett)
Wish (Togetic to Togedemaru)
Yawn (Wooper)


So before I close this thread, these are the TMs I've decided to keep. Steel Beam should also be in there, but I'm not willing to add Close Combat nor Phantom Force. If someone has some free time and wants to organize this TM list into the correct format for Gen8, please feel free to help me out! If not, I can get it done on Sunday. Thanks y'all -- I'll be posting my next CAP shortly.

TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM12 Taunt
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM32 Double Team
TM41 Torment
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM63 Embargo
TM65 Shadow Claw
TM66 Payback
TM68 Giga Impact
TM77 Psych Up
TM78 Bulldoze
TM85 Dream Eater
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM91 Flash Cannon
TM92 Trick Room
TM97 Dark Pulse
TM100 Confide
Endeavor
Foul Play
Fury Cutter
Headbutt

Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Iron Defense
Iron Head
Iron Tail
Knock Off
Last Resort

Low Kick
Magic Coat
Pain Split

Snore
Spite
Sucker Punch
Super Fang
Superpower
Thunder Punch
Trick
Cut
Dig
Hone Claws
Retaliate
 
When you refer to tutors, do you mean TRs? I might be getting something mixed up, but I thought I'd put it out there just in case.

EDIT: I didn't realize that was the old list. My mistake.
 
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Birkal

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Looks like we're done here! Thank you all for your feedback and kind words.

1 Metal Claw
1 Bullet Punch
1 Scratch
1 Tail Whip
1 Lick
1 Torment
Evolution: Metal Claw
14 Spite
18 Shadow Sneak
22 Copycat
27 Fake Out
31 Hone Claws
35 Shadow Claw
39 Revenge
43 Iron Head
48 Shadow Strike
52 Memento
56 Perish Song
Curse (Onix to Cufant)
Defog (Farfetch'd)
Feather Dance (Hawlucha to Farfetch'd)
Flail (Swinub)
Metal Sound (Lucario)
Meteor Mash (Lucario)
Psycho Shift (Xatu to Woobat)
Sucker Punch (Diglett)
Wish (Togetic to Togedemaru)
Yawn (Wooper)
TM04 Ice Punch
TM05 Thunder Punch
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM15 Dig
TM19 Safeguard
TM21 Rest
TM23 Thief
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM27 Icy Wind
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM34 Sunny Day
TM38 Will-O-Wisp
TM39 Facade
TM42 Revenge
TM56 U-turn
TM57 Payback
TM58 Assurance
TM59 Fling
TM65 Shadow Claw
TM70 Trick Room
TM76 Round
TM77 Hex
TM79 Retaliate
TM81 Bulldoze
TM94 False Swipe

TR07 Low Kick
TR10 Earthquake
TR14 Metronome
TR20 Substitute
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR31 Iron Tail
TR33 Shadow Ball
TR37 Taunt
TR38 Trick
TR39 Superpower
TR46 Iron Defense
TR53 Close Combat
TR58 Dark Pulse
TR70 Flash Cannon
TR74 Iron Head
TR81 Foul Play
TR90 Play Rough
Steel Beam
 
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dhelmise

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Code:
1 - Metal Claw
1 - Bullet Punch
1 - Scratch
1 - Tail Whip
1 - Lick
1 - Torment
14 - Spite
18 - Shadow Sneak
22 - Copycat
27 - Fake Out
31 - Hone Claws
35 - Shadow Claw
39 - Revenge
43 - Iron Head
48 - Shadow Strike
52 - Memento
56 - Perish Song
Egg - Curse
Egg - Defog
Egg - Feather Dance
Egg - Flail
Egg - Metal Sound
Egg - Meteor Mash
Egg - Psycho Shift
Egg - Sucker Punch
Egg - Wish
Egg - Yawn
Tutor - Steel Beam
TM/TR - Ice Punch
TM/TR - Thunder Punch
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Dig
TM/TR - Safeguard
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Thief
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Icy Wind
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Rain Dance
TM/TR - Sunny Day
TM/TR - Will-O-Wisp
TM/TR - Facade
TM/TR - Revenge
TM/TR - U-turn
TM/TR - Payback
TM/TR - Assurance
TM/TR - Fling
TM/TR - Shadow Claw
TM/TR - Trick Room
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Hex
TM/TR - Retaliate
TM/TR - Bulldoze
TM/TR - False Swipe
TM/TR - Low Kick
TM/TR - Earthquake
TM/TR - Metronome
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Iron Tail
TM/TR - Shadow Ball
TM/TR - Taunt
TM/TR - Trick
TM/TR - Superpower
TM/TR - Iron Defense
TM/TR - Close Combat
TM/TR - Dark Pulse
TM/TR - Flash Cannon
TM/TR - Iron Head
TM/TR - Foul Play
TM/TR - Play Rough
 
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