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Pet Mod [Gen 8] More Balanced Hackmons v2 (NatDex BH)

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(approved by G-Luke)
This "pet mod" will essentially just be NatDex BH. We'll explore QOL changes such as tweaking moves to have 100% accuracy, but overall this pet mod will focus on the Gen 8 and Gen 7 BH metagame combined.

Banlist:
Groudon-Primal
Rayquaza-Mega
Zacian-Crowned
Shedinja
Arena Trap
Contrary
Gorilla Tactics
Huge Power
Illusion
Innards Out
Intrepid Sword
Libero
Magnet Pull
Moody
Neutralizing Gas
Parental Bond
Protean
Psychic Surge
Pure Power
Shadow Tag
Stakeout
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Gengarite
Chatter
Octolock
Comatose + Sleep Talk

Rules: Species Clause, Sleep Clause

Watchlist:
Octolock: overwhelmingly pressures walls that lack pivoting moves or Shed Shell and abusable easily by PH mons like MMY and Xerneas. Note that it goes through Magic Bounce.
Fishious Rend: Very high base power, especially with Rain; on the other hand, the premier Fishious Rend user (Ash-Greninja) is frail and fairly weak outside of Rain.
Bolt Beak: Very high base power, especially with Electric Terrain; on the other hand, Giratina and Zygarde-Complete take it on and Electric-types are either slow or weak.
Psychic Surge: Due to the nerf of boosting Psychic-type attacks from 50% to 30%, it might be healthy enough to join the metagame again. It's allowed in Gen 8, but Gen 8 doesn't have MMX or MMY so this'll need more discussion.

Other Notes:
  • Since Silvally can use typings without RKS System and a Memory, Arceus can use typings without Multitype and a Plate.
  • Megas and forme changes, similarly to NatDex OU and AG, are allowed.
Council:
:xerneas: Anaconja
"Legacy" Council:
:gengar: Zovrah

Playable on: Scoopapa's server
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
Considering the new Arceus type change mechanics, Arceus-Steel could be a superior alternative to Registeel. It has comparable bulk with much better speed and power, opening the door to more bulky offensive sets as well as the stall stuff Registeel does. Ghost, Fairy, Water and Ground could also have potential, but I can't give much input on those since I've never been super into Hackmons.
 
Rain:
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina in Rain: 321-378 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain: 429-504 (106.1 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete in Rain: 639-753 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

unrain:
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Water: 235-277 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Greninja-Ash Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Melmetal: 415-489 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

I'm not sure how good or usable Zekrom is w/ bolt beak as its the strongest abuser on paper. your stab doesnt actually kill like zygarde with band and adapt which is kinda wack. Set-up sets are kinda hard to pull off without some epic volt absorb/efy gengar stuff or shed but it has scary calcs too


+2 252 Atk Adaptability Zekrom Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 261-308 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Zekrom Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 372-440 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
mans just dies, for zyg just use multi attack but take around 5-8% off
similarly most things just die, not really sure i need to provide calcs for +2 zekrom firing off 170 bp stab. Aside from that its a super great move choice for zera, but who knows how viable that would actually be given it really just.. wasnt, towards the end of the gen.

Finally, I personally would like to see dynamax on the watchlist. I don't think the mechanic works well in singles formats in general, and I feel that the thing noted by mamp about dmax in gen 8:

MAMPToday at 7:13 PM
on dynamax, it doesnt offer that much of an offensive benefit compared to other tiers
bh mons already have access to powerful boosting moves and high bp moves
and the meta has v good counterplay for setup
yeah, it rarely lets stuff break walls that they dont already break
it also offers really helpful defensive utility
makes setup worse i think
are things I'm not sure would apply in a natdex environment. I will admit I haven't given much thought to the topic, but I'm not exactly advocatinga quickban or anything like that, so. I've had a few teams waiting to be used for a while now, glad I might be able to actually use them soon :)
 
Kinda throwing ideas out here, but Hackmons is always an extremely fun meta. The changes to Arceus formes does open them up as viable, if niche, candidates, so I was wondering if Arceus-Electric could become an effective Bolt Beak user?

Arceus-Electric @ Toxic Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Poison Heal / Mold Breaker?
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Shift Gear
- Filler
- Filler

I am really unsure what to run on this outside of Bolt Beak. If I really wanted a Banded mon or Smasher, I could simply switch to Zekrom, but Arc-Elec is faster and bulkier, which makes me think a Shift Gear PHeal set could be viable. Improofs for this are probably extremely standard, the most notable one being almost any Zyg-C as well as any PDon variant.

I kinda wish I was able to post more stuff, however we don’t really have a large playerbase. I hope you guys leave feedback on this.
 
Kinda throwing ideas out here, but Hackmons is always an extremely fun meta. The changes to Arceus formes does open them up as viable, if niche, candidates, so I was wondering if Arceus-Electric could become an effective Bolt Beak user?

Arceus-Electric @ Toxic Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Poison Heal / Mold Breaker?
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Shift Gear
- Filler
- Filler

I am really unsure what to run on this outside of Bolt Beak. If I really wanted a Banded mon or Smasher, I could simply switch to Zekrom, but Arc-Elec is faster and bulkier, which makes me think a Shift Gear PHeal set could be viable. Improofs for this are probably extremely standard, the most notable one being almost any Zyg-C as well as any PDon variant.

I kinda wish I was able to post more stuff, however we don’t really have a large playerbase. I hope you guys leave feedback on this.
I would probably use a set that's similar to the PH Zekrom set in Gen 8, with Bolt Beak / Shift Gear / Icicle Crash / Will-o-Wisp. This way, Arceus can improof itself and let up a slot for a more specialized teammate. I'm not sure how much you lose from the coverage STAB, though, so Zekrom might be better so you can try another Arceus set (since Arceus is so splashable with all of its types).
 
Kinda throwing ideas out here, but Hackmons is always an extremely fun meta. The changes to Arceus formes does open them up as viable, if niche, candidates, so I was wondering if Arceus-Electric could become an effective Bolt Beak user?

Arceus-Electric @ Toxic Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Poison Heal / Mold Breaker?
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Shift Gear
- Filler
- Filler

I am really unsure what to run on this outside of Bolt Beak. If I really wanted a Banded mon or Smasher, I could simply switch to Zekrom, but Arc-Elec is faster and bulkier, which makes me think a Shift Gear PHeal set could be viable. Improofs for this are probably extremely standard, the most notable one being almost any Zyg-C as well as any PDon variant.

I kinda wish I was able to post more stuff, however we don’t really have a large playerbase. I hope you guys leave feedback on this.
since youd probably rather go zekrom for a banded set, poison heals options for the last two slots (at least, for a shift gear set) should probs be wisp and an ice move to hit the dragons with. I also wanna note that ddance would have some merit over gear if you go wisp since those dragons are usually prankster and more pp is always helpful with that. In regards to arceus formes as a whole, I personally feel that only ice is probably unviable. But overall, I'm not sure what could really compete with arceus fairy.

Not only was xern a top tier mon in gen 7 bh with ph just kinda always finding ways to do something depending on what it decides to run in its 2 basically free slots, but arceus is pretty much better in every way except its raw atk/spatk. The bulk and speed upgrades are probably more than enough to make up for it though.

Arceus-Fairy @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature / Rash Nature
- Moonblast
- Quiver Dance
- Diamond Storm / Power Gem / Spikes / Stealth Rock / Magma Storm / Earth Power
- Lovely Kiss / Will-O-Wisp / Strength Sap

Outside that arceus can also use the pixi spin set that was sorta kinda on the rise very late gen 7, pre-gen8 release


Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Strength Sap

Which I believe can function as a fairly reliable mmx check? dont have calcs on me rn. Anyway arc fairy can do these sets rly well and one is really potent while the other is cool and might be potent too, I'm really unconvinced that other types are as good. Ofc most of them could likely find room on any team, depending on what the team needs.
 
Thoughts on watchlist:
Shouldn't Rend be banned already?
Bolt Beak is more manageable because Electric immunities are actually good.
Octolock should be banned because its just so uncompetitive, literally Trap+Imprison+Transform in one slot and also makes PH mons just dumb.
Psysurge should be unbanned because 1.3 is very manageable, we have better Psychic resists, also helps the metagame by nerfing Triage.

Mega Ray should be potentially unbanned because Arceus naturally outspeeds it along with the new Zacian(-C) and Etern as well as Triage being weaker from Psysurge. Scales help against Specs and Triage too.
Moody Unban?
Ban DIB? Kartana doesn't seem healthy at all with this move.
Ban Shed.
Free Zacian-Crowned

Regarding Arceus Formes, it's pretty obvious that every team should run one of these because they are very good mons that is only held down by Species Clause. Notable feature of Arceus is that any Plate equipped is unknockable which is REALLY nice. All arc unless being massive bait to Diancie/Ray should run Max speed btw because its speed is so good. Biggest issue seems to be that they struggle to punish Imposter (also hard to offensively since no 4x weaknesses). All ranks at the end are relative to Arceus and its formes due to opportunity cost.
:ss/arceus-bug:
Bad. Niche is Ground resist and Fighting resist but you would probably want to use Grass instead. STAB U-turn without being weak to Psychic is ok but Mega Scizor is probably just better since its actually slow. D rank.
Arceus-Bug @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn / Lunge
- Spectral Thief / Thousand Waves
- Will-O-Wisp / Icicle Spear?
- Shore Up
:ss/arceus-dark:
Good mon. Its bulkier than Yveltal and has no exploitable weakness really. Seems like a solid MGar and MMY (shaky) check. Very unfortunate that it is weak to Fairies which are good. A rank.
Arceus-Dark @ Chople Berry / Dread Plate
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Revelation Dance / Judgment
- Spectral Thief / Topsy-Turvy
- Anchor Shot / Knock Off / Rapid Spin
- Recover

Arceus-Dark @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Anchor Shot / U-turn / Teleport / Spectral Thief
- Will-O-Wisp / Purify
- Filler
:ss/arceus-dragon:
Outclassed by Giratina, Zyg, or Eternatus (Dialga etc as well). I don't even know what's a good set for this. Only niche is mono Dragon type with decent speed but losing hard to Fairies is like terrible. F rank.

No set
:ss/arceus-electric:
A very good Flying resist that isn't vulnerable to Sunsteel Strike. Pretty solid Ray check and Kart check etc. C rank.

Arceus-Electric @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp / Scald / Quiver Dance
- Discharge
- Ice Beam / Quiver Dance
- Spikes?

Arceus-Electric @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spirit Shackle / Anchor Shot
- Discharge / Revelation Dance
- Ice Beam / Spectral Thief / Topsy-Turvy?
- Shore Up
:ss/arceus-fairy:
Better Xerneas because of speed tier and bulk. Can run very similar PH sets (offensive is lower so maybe more support orientated) but thanks to its speed it can also run support sets a lot better (outspeeding ray is very good because you aren't forced out by whatever). S rank.
Arceus-Fairy @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Quiver Dance
- Strength Sap / Earth Power / Lava Plume / Magma Storm / Nuzzle / etc.
- Spikes / Substitute / Stealth Rock

Arceus-Fairy @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers / Fairium Z / Groundium Z / Pixie Plate
Ability: Prankster / Magic Bounce / Soundproof / Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Jolly Nature
- Moonblast / Spirit Break / Boomburst
- Shore Up
- Taunt / Strength Sap / Will-o-Wisp / Defog / Rapid Spin
- Haze / Thousand Waves
:ss/arceus-fighting:
Use Zamazenta it has a much better speed tier better attack less bulk but as a Fighting type the only stuff you need to switch into are Knocks basically. If you really want to use this you can run Special sets but fighting special moves are terrible. F rank.

No set lol.
:ss/arceus-fire:
Is similar to Ho-Oh and Darm-Z except it trades Ground immunity or Psychic+Fighting Resist for better mixed bulk, speed, less rock vulnerability + electric weakness/no dark ghost weakness. Will be a pretty good check to Steels and Fairies and takes V-creates well. C rank.

Arceus-Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate / Fur Coat / Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Jolly Nature
- Lava Plume / V-create
- Shore Up
- Anchor Shot / Thousand Waves / Pivot
- Spectral Thief / Topsy-Turvy / Will-o-Wisp / Knock Off / Ice Beam

Arceus-Fire @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Jolly Nature
- Lava Plume / Magma Storm / Fire Lash / Flare Blitz?
- Quiver Dance / Tail Glow / Dragon Dance
- Ice Beam / Icicle Crash / Knock Off / Other Coverage
- Discharge / Volt Switch / Bolt Beak? (unsure on improofness) / Other Coverage
:ss/arceus-flying:
Best role is some support -ate set I think as offensively 120 SpA and mediocre typing isn't doing much with Triage. C rank.

Arceus-Flying @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Naive Nature
- Boomburst
- Shore Up / Roost
- Rapid Spin
- Extreme Speed / Thousand Arrows? / Earth Power
:ss/arceus-ghost:
Distinguishes itself from Giratina(-O) for lack of weaknesses Dragon brings while being bulkier than MGar. It is further a very good Shed switch in that isn't potentially imposter bait thanks to unknockable Spooky Plate. B rank.

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Magic Bounce / Comatose / Unaware?
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Shore Up
- Entrainment / Core Enforcer
- Will-o-Wisp / Rapid Spin / Poison Fang

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Shore Up
- Secret Sword
- Shell Smash / Tail Glow
:ss/arceus-grass:
Ground resist with overall good bulk speed etc. Also checks Kyogre pretty well. Has the issue similar to AG where it wants 3 attacks to not be bait to Steels or Flyings (Ray). D rank.

Arceus-Grass @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Jolly Nature
- Apple Acid / Grass Knot / Grav Apple
- Shore Up
- Core Enforcer / Earth Power / Thousand Waves
- Will-o-Wisp / Entrainment
:ss/arceus-ground:
Acts as a better base groudon and similar to big zyg except it has better speed and no secondary typing. Offensive sets don’t exists. B rank.

Arceus-Ground @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Waves
- Shore Up / Wish / Shield
- Knock Off / Spectral Thief
- Will-o-Wisp / Leech Seed

Arceus-Ground @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Prankster / Fur Coat / Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Thousand Waves / Revelation Dance
- Shore Up
- Encore / Strength Sap / Volt Switch / Teleport / Filler
- Haze / Spectral Thief / Knock Off / Core Enforcer
:ss/arceus-ice:
Hail stall? Or -ate? D rank.

Arceus-Ice @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Naive Nature
- Boomburst
- Shore Up
- Rapid Spin
- Extreme Speed / Thousand Waves
:ss/arceus:
Not too many reasons to still run this since you would want a type most of the time but PH is still solid I think. Otherwise you have Type:Null and Chansey being generally better defensive Normals (why do you want defensive normal). C rank.
Arceus @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Spectral Thief
- Will-O-Wisp / Other Stuff
- Spiky Shield / Other Stuff
:ss/arceus-poison:
The best Arceus forme because it is good and unique. Checks Fairies and Fightings and stuff. S rank.

Arceus-Poison @ Black Sludge
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poison Jab
- Shore Up
- Anchor Shot / Thousand Waves
- Spectral Thief / Entrainment / Knock Off
:ss/arceus-psychic:
Better Cresselia. Except Cress isn’t that much worse so you should just use a different forme. D rank.

Arceus-Psychic @ Psychium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Prankster / Magic Bounce / Ice Scales / Fur Coat etc
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psystrike / Revelation Dance
- Shore Up
- Haze / Spectral Thief
- Anchor Shot / Thousand Waves / Spirit Shackle / Teleport
:ss/arceus-rock:
Alternative to Tyranitar, more passive, doesn't check ghosts and psychics, but doesn't have the Bug, Fairy, and extra Fighting weaknesses. Probably has limited niche but works as a better check to Rayquaza which is nice. B rank.

Arceus-Rock @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet / Chople Berry? / Stone Plate
Ability: Levitate / Fur Coat / Ice Scales / Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Timid Nature
- Rock Blast / Revelation Dance / Judgment
- Shore Up
- Spectral Thief / Core Enforcer / Entrainment / Will-o-Wisp / Strength Sap / Purify
- Anchor Shot / Thousand Waves / Spirit Shackle / Knock Off
:ss/arceus-steel:
Fast Registeel. Uses its speed tier to basically play more aggressively compared to Registeel against stuff like Kyurems Kartana Diancie and Rayquaza. Prankster probably isn't as good as it is on Regi. A rank.

Arceus-Steel @ Safety Goggles / Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Flash Fire / Ice Scales / Fur Coat? / Magic Bounce / Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Shore Up
- Will-O-Wisp / Spectral Thief / Defog
- Entrainment
:ss/arceus-water:
A more passive, faster and physically bulkier POgre. Very versatile forme with its great typing. POgre is a better special check though. A rank.

Arceus-Water @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off / Spectral Thief
- Leech Seed / King’s Shield

Arceus-Water @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet / Splash Plate
Ability: Fur Coat / Ice Scales / Prankster / Magic Bounce / Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Revelation Dance / Scald
- Shore Up
- Spectral Thief / Core Enforcer / Knock Off / Haze
- Anchor Shot / Thousand Waves / Spirit Shackle / Volt Switch
The order is probably Poison Fairy Dark Water Steel Ghost Rock Ground Fire Electric Normal Flying Ice Grass Bug Psychic Dragon Fighting.
 
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Thoughts on watchlist:
Shouldn't Rend be banned already?
I'm not sure about this; the only OHKOs it gets are under rain (which Tinted Lens V-Create in Sun does too) and PDon is fairly common. Plus, Greninja-Ash finds it difficult to switch into things, meaning that offensive pressure can really hinder its effectiveness.

Octolock should be banned because its just so uncompetitive, literally Trap+Imprison+Transform in one slot and also makes PH mons just dumb.
I largely agree with this - it's not as good in Gen 8 since the abusers's offensive presence is nerfed a lot, but in Gen 7 I can see things like PH MMX and MMY being very centralizing, if not overcentralizing. I would like some more discussion on this, though.

Psysurge should be unbanned because 1.3 is very manageable, we have better Psychic resists, also helps the metagame by nerfing Triage.
It's been removed from the banlist already, might be re-added if it proves to still be too powerful.


Mega Ray should be potentially unbanned because Arceus naturally outspeeds it along with the new Zacian(-C) and Etern as well as Triage being weaker from Psysurge. Scales help against Specs and Triage too.
I'm not exactly sure about this - Mega Ray seems to invalidate bulkier playstyles due to Band TC sets and Arceus takes almost half if it resists, while Ray simply switches out afterward for another oppurtunity to KO. I also doubt that Psysurge will be popular enough to check Triage effectively.

Moody Unban?
Seems too overcentralizing, basically forces teams to use a bulky Prankster mon or get lucky with the boosts.

Ban DIB? Kartana doesn't seem healthy at all with this move.
I'm in favor of this.

Ban Shed.
Also okay with this - if we get enough consensus or Gen 8 BH bans Shed, I'll ban it.

Free Zacian-Crowned
I've contacted Scoopapa about this (just tagging since I didn't get an answer yet). It should happen soon.
 
I just tried testing this format on Scoop's server but the team validator checks for normal move/ability legality.
Ban Shed.
I disagree. Remember, Shed survived a suspect test in gen 7 BH, and all the important things that countered it that got lost in the generation shift are back. The most important thing is that Pursuit is back, as well as good Ghost types that can run Moldy to get the guaranteed kill. Not to mention, Sand got Shore Up back, which I think is good enough to to justify use of Sand Stream, especially with the titillating prospect of Ice Scales Rock types in Sandstorm, possibly holding an Assault Vest.

All in all, while Sturdinja is still better here than it was in Gen 7, it is far less safe here than it is in Gen 8.
 
I disagree. Remember, Shed survived a suspect test in gen 7 BH, and all the important things that countered it that got lost in the generation shift are back. The most important thing is that Pursuit is back, as well as good Ghost types that can run Moldy to get the guaranteed kill. Not to mention, Sand got Shore Up back, which I think is good enough to to justify use of Sand Stream, especially with the titillating prospect of Ice Scales Rock types in Sandstorm, possibly holding an Assault Vest.

All in all, while Sturdinja is still better here than it was in Gen 7, it is far less safe here than it is in Gen 8.
Mold Breaker Pursuit, while very effective, is fairly niche and can easily be U-Turned on unless you also use Eject Button, which likely does not fit on all teams.

Shore Up does not very much justify Sand Stream because that often means sand is chipping your own teammates, which is counterproductive. Additionally, Shedinja teams stall out sand, switch Shedinja on the last turn of sand, and then U-Turn on the setter.

Ice Scales Tyranitar sounds like a really janky special wall, since it gets hit by coverage like Secret Sword, Earth Power, and Pixilate Boombursts. Diancie could kind of work, but even with Ice Scales and sand it takes 35 from Kyu-W's Boomburst so I find that too much to invest into for a pretty disappointing result.

Most teams's primary Shedinja counter is setting hazards and finding a way to break through the other teammates, but with Heavy-Duty Boots Shedinja becomes an incredibly annoying (if not uncompetitive) support mon that can come in after scouting sets and be a general nuisance. I could start some kind of suspect if others are up for it.

Also, I've heard that Zacian and Zamazenta are getting their crowned formes back. Once they do, Zacian-Crowned will be quickbanned while Zamazenta-Crowned will stay.
 
Most teams's primary Shedinja counter is setting hazards and finding a way to break through the other teammates, but with Heavy-Duty Boots Shedinja becomes an incredibly annoying (if not uncompetitive) support mon that can come in after scouting sets and be a general nuisance. I could start some kind of suspect if others are up for it.
The thing about Shedinja is that it also likely wants to run Protective Pads to dodge the foe’s Rocky Helmet users that try to switch in to take it on. But that honestly makes it an unfun guessing game whenever Shedinja is on a team whether or not it will be immune to hazards or contact, which is why I personally dislike Shedinja, so giving it a suspect feels justified in my eyes.
 
The thing about Shedinja is that it also likely wants to run Protective Pads to dodge the foe’s Rocky Helmet users that try to switch in to take it on. But that honestly makes it an unfun guessing game whenever Shedinja is on a team whether or not it will be immune to hazards or contact, which is why I personally dislike Shedinja, so giving it a suspect feels justified in my eyes.
Shedinja sets that use Protective Pads also use moves that don't make contact; an example set is Spirit Shackle, Pain Split, Stealth Rock, Teleport.

I would start a suspect for Shedinja but the format in DragonHeaven is bugged. I've contacted coders but it's been a bit slow right now.
 
Hey I’m just gonna drop a few sets from Galar BH (Hell Original)

:ss/darmanitan-galar-zen:
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Icicle Crash
- U-turn
- Earthquake

Meet our second best V-Create user and offensive behemoth. This basically trades PDon’s bulk and versatility for obscene power, great speed, the ability to hold an item, and most importantly, have a STAB that mauls the Dragons. I think MBro improofs but idk if it takes U-turn well enough.

:ss/greninja-ash:
Greninja-Ash (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability / Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

The best Fishious Rend abuser. Idk why you’d run TC when you’re literally only clicking STABs but you be you I suppose. Idk what actually can improof this but Fini comes to mind.

:ss/regigigas:
Regigigas @ Choice Band
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Extreme Speed
- Pursuit
- ???

This is just better NormRegi from last gen because it has a 170 BP attack. Improof with a Ghost.

:ss/melmetal:
Melmetal @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat / Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Anchor Shot
- Teleport
- Recover

Lastly to depart from all the offensive behemoths heres Melmetal, whose basically Registeel Arc-Steel but physically bulky. FC is just an amazing tank as always but I think PrimSea will find a stronger place in the meta. I think this set could use some updates though. First it lets in a ton of special breakers and MMX and PDon in for free. For that reason, I think Gira is a pretty good partner. Meanwhile I guess you could just run Zyg-C + Registeel Arc-Steel on the other end of the spectrum.

Might post more later, please qb Octolock that shit will be more cancerous here than it is in regular BH.
 
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I wonder if Fishious Rend/Bolt Beak is more pressing vs Octolock.
Do you mean pressing as in more suspect-worthy? I would argue no. Octolock is abusable by way too many mons in comparison to Beak/Rend. It’s especially more prevalent here when we have mons like PH MMX, PH MMY, PH Xern and MGar. It’s ability to always force something in can be extremely dangerous, as it is very likely that the trapped mon will die. Beak/Rend are very powerful for sure, but thats about it. You’re not going to see MMX or MDiancie pull out those moves because they don’t really do anything for them. Anaconja has already stated that Beak/Rend have several immunities and few notable abusers who are weak without boosts (AshGren, Zek, Zera). TLDR: Octolock is usable on anything remotely offensive, cracks walls open crazy fast and feels very centralizing. Beak/Rend are just bland offensive moves that give some mons more solid niches.

Edit: Octolock is now banned from Gen 8 BH. Anaconja will this be implemented in MBH?
 
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I do mean pressing as more suspect worthy. And the way I see it, Octolock is more or less a legal version of Shadow Tag in the sense of anything that gets trapped dies.
My, my, my how things have changed... Ash-Greninja is the top of the physical attacker food chain, competing with Darmanitan-Z, who is Groudon-P without ability/item limits, and pretty much does what Kyurem-Black wishes it could (not rely on Refrigerate Extreme Speed), while a new Pokemon comes back even better than ever...

P.S. Solaros & Lunaris - I like your Normalize Regi set, for me I want to try a set-up Version with Slaking.

Mine replaces Choice Band with Dark Memory so it can handle Ghosts.

Now it’s 4th “Filler Move” Is Multi Attack, I then replaced Extreme Speed with Shift Gear since it isn’t Choice-locked. Now it can go first, so it can always hit at double the base power for Fishous Rend, while Shift Gear also affords you to go Adamant, so you can hit harder.

From here, I think since you will likely set up on their switch out, rather than attack, Pursuit is replaced by Drain Punch or Photon Geyser for damage. Recover is my main replacement, however, so can stay in and set up repeatedly, thanks to immunity from Spectral Thief, and adequate bulk.

Slaking @ Dark Memory
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Brave Nature
- Fishous Rend
- Shift Gear
- Recover / Drain Punch / Photon Geyser
- Multi Attack

Photon > Abilities, uses SpA if you get Burned/Topsy-Turveyed (hence Max SpA). For this reason, I like Slaking’s 95 SpA over Regi’s 80. Since they are often interchangeable, due to identical Type/Atk/Spe, this shouldn’t impact the success of the other moves within the set.

I opted as a secondary option in Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spe), so if you choose Photon Geyser, your SpA is unaffected, while Shift Gear more than makes up for the -10% Speed drop from the nature.
——————

Quick Question:
Since Megas / Primals are allowed, are Z-moves allowed?

I say this even before people say “well, only mega / primal forms are allowed”. With PDon only available due to the Red Orb, that means that Primal changes are allowed if Red Orb Groudon is. This also means Mega Stone / manual Mega form changes are concurrently allowed (I.e. Parental Bond Kanga). Thus, by extension, with Primal and thus Megas allowed, that also means that Ultra forms must be allowed, which means we have to include the Z-Crystal for Necrozma-Ultimate, which requires the Z-Crystal to change forms.

Since the MBH will have to bypass bans on Primal and Megas, it would, in effect also have to bypass Ultimate forms, and thus Z-move restrictions. Afterall, if Mega Stones, Orbs, Crystals, don’t exist in Gen 8, then neither do their forms, so this bypasses cartridge rules if we have to use the National Dex in the sense of all Gen 7 Pokemon / moves and earlier in playable format.

Since it must be allowed, this would enable Necrozma to use Light that Burns the Sky. This means that due to Red Orb Groudon, which extends to Megas, which extends to Ultimate, which extends to Z-moves, we should discuss if this can be used concurrently with Dynamax (like if Mega Stone Kanga or Z-Move Necrozma can Dynamax)

If Dynamax is banned, then this isn’t an issue. If Dynamax is not banned, then 140 Base power Max Moves can still get the Z-Crystal boost unless we decide to disable Z-Crystal (like Choice Items), during Dynamax.
 
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My, my, my how things have changed... Ash-Greninja is the top of the physical attacker food chain, competing with Darmanitan-Z, who is Groudon-P without ability/item limits, and pretty much does what Kyurem-Black wishes it could (not rely on Refrigerate Extreme Speed), while a new Pokemon comes back even better than ever...

P.S. Solaros & Lunaris - I like your Normalize Regi set, for me I want to try a set-up Version with Slaking.

Mine replaces Choice Band with Dark Memory so it can handle Ghosts.

Now it’s 4th “Filler Move” Is Multi Attack, I then replaced Extreme Speed with Shift Gear since it isn’t Choice-locked. Now it can go first, so it can always hit at double the base power for Fishous Rend, while Shift Gear also affords you to go Adamant, so you can hit harder.

From here, I think since you will likely set up on their switch out, rather than attack, Pursuit is replaced by Drain Punch or Photon Geyser for damage. Recover is my main replacement, however, so can stay in and set up repeatedly, thanks to immunity from Spectral Thief, and adequate bulk.

Slaking @ Dark Memory
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Brave Nature
- Fishous Rend
- Shift Gear
- Recover / Drain Punch / Photon Geyser
- Multi Attack

Photon > Abilities, uses SpA if you get Burned/Topsy-Turveyed (hence Max SpA). For this reason, I like Slaking’s 95 SpA over Regi’s 80. Since they are often interchangeable, due to identical Type/Atk/Spe, this shouldn’t impact the success of the other moves within the set.

I opted as a secondary option in Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spe), so if you choose Photon Geyser, your SpA is unaffected, while Shift Gear more than makes up for the -10% Speed drop from the nature.
——————

Quick Question:
Since Megas / Primals are allowed, are Z-moves allowed?

I say this even before people say “well, only mega / primal forms are allowed”. With PDon only available due to the Red Orb, that means that Primal changes are allowed if Red Orb Groudon is. This also means Mega Stone / manual Mega form changes are concurrently allowed (I.e. Parental Bond Kanga). Thus, by extension, with Primal and thus Megas allowed, that also means that Ultra forms must be allowed, which means we have to include the Z-Crystal for Necrozma-Ultimate, which requires the Z-Crystal to change forms.

Since the MBH will have to bypass bans on Primal and Megas, it would, in effect also have to bypass Ultimate forms, and thus Z-move restrictions. Afterall, if Mega Stones, Orbs, Crystals, don’t exist in Gen 8, then neither do their forms, so this bypasses cartridge rules if we have to use the National Dex in the sense of all Pokemon in existence.

Since it must be allowed, this would enable Necrozma to use Light that Burns the Sky. This means that due to Red Orb Groudon, which extends to Megas, which extends to Ultimate, which extends to Z-moves, we should discuss if this can be used concurrently with Dynamax (like if Mega Stone Kanga can Dynamax)
To answer your question, I believe if a Pokemon is Mega Evolved (whether via Mega Stone or just being Mega) or is holding a Z-Crystal (which are in), they cannot Dynamax. This also applies to Imposter copying non-Dynamax-able Pokemon.
 
To answer your question, I believe if a Pokemon is Mega Evolved (whether via Mega Stone or just being Mega) or is holding a Z-Crystal (which are in), they cannot Dynamax. This also applies to Imposter copying non-Dynamax-able Pokemon.
Ah, I think that makes sense it’s like pseudo Gen 8, by preventing them from being used concurrently with Dynamax.

I could also make the case that we can treat Z-Crystals similarly to Choice Items, so they cannot be used in Dynamax. That would still not bar you from Dynamaxing completely with them, without complex dual functionality.

Lastly, are there any plans to unban PDon, I doubt it, but since people discussed the shift in Ray-M, Psychic Terrain, etc. potentially unbanned, I wanted to ask. Fishous Rend is largely a counter to its non-Deso/WAbsorb sets, and it’s slower than Darm-G-Z, who already possesses a stronger Precipice Blades if it packs Intrepid Sword and Choice Band/Life Orb (ISword is like a free STAB, with Life Orb making up for slightly lower Atk).
 
PDon has a base 150 Special Attack stat, which could cause pretty big problems by opening up special/mixed sets, has even higher attack than Galarian Darmanitan-Z, has STAB Thousand Arrows which is completely unresisted with V-create, and it’s much bulkier. Also, I doubt there was any real new counterplay to it in the current Gen.
 
PDon has a base 150 Special Attack stat, which could cause pretty big problems by opening up special/mixed sets, has even higher attack than Galarian Darmanitan-Z, has STAB Thousand Arrows which is completely unresisted with V-create, and it’s much bulkier. Also, I doubt there was any real new counterplay to it in the current Gen.
I guess with Mold Breaker you are correct, except for Primordial Sea variants of Grass types resisting Ground, Fire, Bolt Beak, Fishous Rend Moves (like Grass Arceus which from Gen 8 gets the form change mechanic without the item-ability limit of last gen).

Gen 8: Counterplay is basically Mold Breaker / Primordial Sea Fishous Rend, if it isn’t immune based on an ability (Desolate Land for blocking Mold Breaker, or Water Absorb for blocking Primordial Sea).

The Dynamaxing of Gen 8 for better surviving its attacks, really boosts potential on the defender since according to Solaros & Lunaris - Primal forms cannot Dynamax, so Defense can better take hits while Groudon cannot Dynamax itself for stronger Ground moves/Survivability.

The overall Re-release of its main checks alongside its own Re-release such as Fur Coat Zygarde, Giratina, and now the faster Arceus-Dragon who all resist the strongest moves it has without weakness to Ground.

I am more asking about the possibility, than hoping for it. I know and remember it’s potential, but others might bring it up down the line so I figured I would ask now.

The same for Your point on mixed stats for Groudon-P can be said for Kyogre-P due to Fishous Rend. It literally has more Atk than even Ash-Greninja, and with Shift Gear can also sweep without fear of -stat drops. I just figured if Kyogre isn’t banned, then why PDon, who can just as easily Belly Drum Unburden Fishous Rend it’s way through teams as Unburden PDon could last gen.
 
Primal Kyogre isn’t fast enough to take advantage of Fishious Rend’s double power if it moves first unless it’s on a switch, plus 145 vs 150 isn’t a huge difference compared to 160 vs 180.
 
Edit: Octolock is now banned from Gen 8 BH. Anaconja will this be implemented in MBH?
Octolock is now banned.

Shedinja is banned as well.
:ss/darmanitan-galar-zen:
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Icicle Crash
- U-turn
- Earthquake
I've realized that DGZ could be a problem in the metagame - with Desolate Land and Choice Band, it seems pretty overbearing:
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina in Harsh Sunshine: 245-288 (48.6 - 57.1%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 362-428 (71.8 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Giratina Spectral Thief vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan: 208-246 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It seems like PSea Steels and FC Waters are the only checks to this thing, and neither are very consistent, either:
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 256-302 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre in Harsh Sunshine: 149-176 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:ss/greninja-ash:
Greninja-Ash (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability / Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

The best Fishious Rend abuser. Idk why you’d run TC when you’re literally only clicking STABs but you be you I suppose. Idk what actually can improof this but Fini comes to mind.
Some others include Primal Groudon and Zygarde-Complete with something like Prankster.

:ss/regigigas:
Regigigas @ Choice Band
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Extreme Speed
- Pursuit
- ???
Honestly the filler here could just be something like V-Create, the extra BP improves some important calcs and also isn't affected by Prankster:
252+ Atk Choice Band Normalize Regigigas Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 172-203 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Normalize Regigigas V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 182-215 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Though you could also use something like Trick to cripple something or some other support move such as Parting Shot, Stealth Rock, etc.
Normalize Regigigas's viability is really hurt by Melmetal, though:
252+ Atk Choice Band Normalize Regigigas V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 189-222 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Slaking @ Dark Memory
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Brave Nature
- Fishous Rend
- Shift Gear
- Recover / Drain Punch / Photon Geyser
- Multi Attack
I don't like this set mostly because it has nowhere near the offensive presence as Band. Without Band Pursuit, it can't stop things like Prankster Zygarde and Giratina from coming in and just walling you to hell and back. Normalize sets capitalize on the raw power that even walls with resistances can't wall, and making it have to set up first just kills its momentum.

Quick Question:
Since Megas / Primals are allowed, are Z-moves allowed?

I say this even before people say “well, only mega / primal forms are allowed”. With PDon only available due to the Red Orb, that means that Primal changes are allowed if Red Orb Groudon is. This also means Mega Stone / manual Mega form changes are concurrently allowed (I.e. Parental Bond Kanga). Thus, by extension, with Primal and thus Megas allowed, that also means that Ultra forms must be allowed, which means we have to include the Z-Crystal for Necrozma-Ultimate, which requires the Z-Crystal to change forms.

Since the MBH will have to bypass bans on Primal and Megas, it would, in effect also have to bypass Ultimate forms, and thus Z-move restrictions. Afterall, if Mega Stones, Orbs, Crystals, don’t exist in Gen 8, then neither do their forms, so this bypasses cartridge rules.

Since it must be allowed, this would enable Necrozma to use Light that Burns the Sky. This means that due to Red Orb Groudon, which extends to Megas, which extends to Ultimate, which extends to Z-moves, we should discuss if this can be used concurrently with Dynamax (like if Mega Stone Kanga can Dynamax)
Rules are according to the NatDex mechanics thread.

Lastly, are there any plans to unban PDon, I doubt it, but since people discussed the shift in Ray-M, Psychic Terrain, etc. potentially unbanned, I wanted to ask. Fishous Rend is largely a counter to its non-Deso/WAbsorb sets, and it’s slower than Darm-G-Z, who already possesses a stronger Precipice Blades if it packs Intrepid Sword and Choice Band/Life Orb (ISword is like a free STAB, with Life Orb making up for slightly lower Atk).
  • The existence of Fishious Rend does not hurt the viability of PDon much because it wouldn't stay in on that user anyway.
  • Its speed is enough to get the jump on the main defensive mons, so the fact that it's slower than DGZ is not very relevant.
  • Intrepid Sword is banned, and what's to say PDon can't use a Choice Band?
I guess with Mold Breaker you are correct, except for Primordial Sea variants of Grass types resisting Ground, Fire, Bolt Beak, Fishous Rend Moves (like Grass Arceus which from Gen 8 gets the form change mechanic without the item-ability limit of last gen).
Grass Arceus sounds pretty terrible, mostly because you're limited to one Arceus forme and there are tons of other options for you out there.

The overall Re-release of its main checks alongside its own Re-release such as Fur Coat Zygarde, Giratina, and now the faster Arceus-Dragon who all resist the strongest moves it has without weakness to Ground.
This was the same argument anti-ban PDon players made, except PDon has like a billion sets to lure them with (see Pixilate, Smash Fleur Cannon, etc.)

The same for Your point on mixed stats for Groudon-P can be said for Kyogre-P due to Fishous Rend. It literally has more Atk than even Ash-Greninja, and with Shift Gear can also sweep without fear of -stat drops. I just figured if Kyogre isn’t banned, then why PDon, who can just as easily Belly Drum Unburden Fishous Rend it’s way through teams as Unburden PDon could last gen.
Kyogre's offensive typing is much, much tamer than Groudon's. 150/90 physical offensive stats makes Zekrom just as effective as it, and Zekrom has a phenomenal offensive typing. There is 0 reason Kyogre should be banned, and there is 0 reason Kyogre should be compared to Groudon.
 
Octolock is now banned.

Shedinja is banned as well.

I've realized that DGZ could be a problem in the metagame - with Desolate Land and Choice Band, it seems pretty overbearing:
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina in Harsh Sunshine: 245-288 (48.6 - 57.1%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Ice Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 362-428 (71.8 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Giratina Spectral Thief vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Darmanitan: 208-246 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It seems like PSea Steels and FC Waters are the only checks to this thing, and neither are very consistent, either:
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 256-302 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Kyogre in Harsh Sunshine: 149-176 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Some others include Primal Groudon and Zygarde-Complete with something like Prankster.


Honestly the filler here could just be something like V-Create, the extra BP improves some important calcs and also isn't affected by Prankster:
252+ Atk Choice Band Normalize Regigigas Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 172-203 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Normalize Regigigas V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 182-215 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Though you could also use something like Trick to cripple something or some other support move such as Parting Shot, Stealth Rock, etc.
Normalize Regigigas's viability is really hurt by Melmetal, though:
252+ Atk Choice Band Normalize Regigigas V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Melmetal: 189-222 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


I don't like this set mostly because it has nowhere near the offensive presence as Band. Without Band Pursuit, it can't stop things like Prankster Zygarde and Giratina from coming in and just walling you to hell and back. Normalize sets capitalize on the raw power that even walls with resistances can't wall, and making it have to set up first just kills its momentum.


Rules are according to the NatDex mechanics thread.


  • The existence of Fishious Rend does not hurt the viability of PDon much because it wouldn't stay in on that user anyway.
  • Its speed is enough to get the jump on the main defensive mons, so the fact that it's slower than DGZ is not very relevant.
  • Intrepid Sword is banned, and what's to say PDon can't use a Choice Band?

Grass Arceus sounds pretty terrible, mostly because you're limited to one Arceus forme and there are tons of other options for you out there.


This was the same argument anti-ban PDon players made, except PDon has like a billion sets to lure them with (see Pixilate, Smash Fleur Cannon, etc.)


Kyogre's offensive typing is much, much tamer than Groudon's. 150/90 physical offensive stats makes Zekrom just as effective as it, and Zekrom has a phenomenal offensive typing. There is 0 reason Kyogre should be banned, and there is 0 reason Kyogre should be compared to Groudon.
1. I thought Multi-Attack benefits on hitting Giratina:

252+ Atk Regigigas Multi-Attack vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina: 234-276 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

The Band version has no way of hitting Giratina, but this can 2HKO. I assume no Leftovers/PH because I Grisceous Orb is more common.

2. Fishous Rend can be a coverage move on many Pokemon, so it doesn’t have to be an obvious Water-type. They don’t necessarily know if you are carrying that move, just like you don’t know if Darm-Z is carrying Precipice Blades or Fishous Rend, etc. until you use Imposter or see it make those moves.

3. I was just basing it off of the listed Arceus forms above, but point taken. He was asking for a check and I simply provided one.

4. Fair point

5. The comparison was more on them having equal mixed offense stats. A set of Fishous Rend, Bolt Beak, Icicle Crash hits everything neutrally (barring abilities), and like he mentioned can go mixed. The advantage over Zekrom is that it has only 2 weaknesses, good SpD bulk, and the only reason I brought it up was because he said Groudon-P has more bulk and attack than Darm-Z, so the same is true for Kyogre and Greninja-Ash.

I don’t plan on using Kyogre for Physical Sweeper sets, i.e. Gyrados-Mega and Greninja can do them better, but it was about the comparison being made.

Thanks for your feedback
 
I agree with Anaconja on the Normalize point thoroughly. These mons are meant to be obscenely strong to the point where they can only be countered by Melmetal and Ghosts (Giratina and the far rarer Dusclops). Running another item just to hit these mons just makes the mon lose tons of power to hit like one mon in the tier. Not to mention PHeal is just a better setup sweeper thanks to great longevity and a status immunity, coupled with a Spectral immunity.

Also I have more sets

:ss/groudon-primal:
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Fire Lash
- Precipice Blades
- Shore Up

So this set basically aims to pressure literally anything that isnt PSea/Flash Fire Cele I guess. Basically you trap shit, then wear them down with Fire Lash so that eventually Gira and ZyGod takes loads from Precipice Blades. I have no idea how to improof this tbh outside of literally FF Steela and Prank Gira/Zyg-C (you haze the boost) so it might not work.


:ss/marshadow:
Marshadow @ Ghost Memory
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Close Combat
- ???

Physical MGar. Improofs itself. Not much to say here if you’ve played regular BH but this gets around stuff like Scales PrimOgre and has Spectral for Giratina.

:ss/zeraora:
Zeraora @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Bolt Beak
- Taunt / Precipice Blades
- Teleport

Pretty wack gimmick tbh. The idea was to combine last gen’s AVeil Zera with the CB Bolt Beak variant to make a pseudo breaker/supporter, but it fails against grounds in general. PBlades dents PDon but I dont know if that can make this viable.

:ss/arceus-steel:
Arceus-Steel @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce / Prankster / Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Destiny Bond
- Teleport
- Recover

Here’s better Registeel basically. Pretty strong utility mon overall whose only bad point is ofc really high Speed, which is somewhat circumvented with Teleport. Idk what to run on this since its about as variable as Registeel was last gen. FF improofs V-create Pixi Diancie, MBounce is good utility and Prank generally stops setup sweepers.
 

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