Metagame National Dex BH

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Wouldn’t Speed Boost cause more problems with Imposter?

 

[Caionamax]

Wouldn’t Speed Boost cause more problems with Imposter?

And with spectral thief they also steal your speed boost, instead with unburden they cannot steal your boost

 

[Champion Leon]

And with spectral thief they also steal your speed boost, instead with unburden they cannot steal your boost

They likely won’t survive to steal my boosts unless they use it the turn I use Belly Drum.

It’s also Imposterproof, bc all of the moves are unusable by Imposter due to Immunity, and the fact that Poltergeist only works on foes with an Item.

Since Belly Drum triggers Sitrus Berry, my Item is used up, preventing Imposter from using it, but bc I don’t use Knock Off on my team, Poltegeist always works in them, so unless they have Focus Sash, or White Herb and Shell Smash, I will be able to hurt the foe with Poltergeist.

Imposter won’t lose their item since they tend to use items that cannot be consumed.

Unburden wears off if you switch out, Speed boost activates even if I have to come back in.

Speed boost is also great for Haze. I might have my stats reset, but Speed Boost activates at the end of each turn. Giving my the edge to outspeed.

Mach Punch Marshadow also outspeeds Haze, due to Speed Boost putting My Adamant Pokemon it above even +Speed nature Arceus. Mach Punch KOs all Arceus forms weak to fighting, with Steel, and Dark being pretty common, as well as Normal. Fur Coat ones get KOed by Close Combat.

Poltergeist KOs Ghost.

Water and Fairy Arceus is the most used, but they don’t usually pack Prankster, and use Poison Heal (Fairy) or Fur Coat (Water) but Bolt Beak will KO Fur Coat Water.

Marshadow still packs STAB Poltergeist for Fairy Arceus;

+6 252+ Atk Marshadow Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Fairy: 534-628 (120.2 - 141.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The great thing about Poltergeist is that it also reveals what item the foe has.

 

[Marsopa Trump & Test Rex]

Here is the proof.
I am going to vote ban.

Have a nice day.

 

[anaconja]

will post my vote after everyone else's

 

[fwqef]

haha registeel bad
https://pokepast.es/b9b16723e7183e0e
mom my blaziken looks weird https://pokepast.es/f1c07237ffffa47d

 

[SuperSkylake]

Ban. Nuff said

 

[Caionamax]

I don't know if this is a bug, but this seems very strange: you can bypass the ban of huge power via mega. It's pretty easy: take a mawile with mawilite and when you mega evolve you can use huge power. Is this right or it's a bug?

P.S. I am not english, so there would be some grammatical errors ;)

 

[a loser]

Is this right or it's a bug?

This is correct. You can get Huge Power by Mega Evolution with Mawile and Medicham, but it really isn't that great because you don't get to hold an item and the sets are generally predictable. Things like base forme Simple with Shell Smash or Shift Gear might pick up some kills from time to time, but are generally outclassed by other physical attackers. MMX is just better than Medicham and Mawile now faces stiff competition with Zacian-C.

 

[Dylanronpa]

Gonna be voting ban.

 

[Ivar57]

https://pokepast.es/2b1f47a29915d13c

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

I’ve played mons for years and the whole time my favorite move has been smash. There have been dark times in my life, but being able to go play pokemans with my 6 shell smash mons has always got me through it. I am so happy for the chance to defend this move, think about it, there is no way that it is broken. This one time I used unaware spiritomb against a guy with smash mewtwo and his photon geyser was totally useless and I won that battle. I’m pretty sure this is ironclad evidence that smash can in fact be walled and people simply aren’t creative enough. People might get mad at me when I say they aren’t creative, but it’s true! I see uturn all the time which is clearly much more broken than allowing my 6 mons to Kio-Ken x2 smash on pretty much any turn they want. What u guys don’t see is that smash allows things to be balanced. Like Thanos said “perfectly balanced, as all things should be.” If we ban smash then we will have to name the tier unbalanced hackmons or stall mons, because smash is the only single offensive move in the game and getting rid of it will get rid of any prospect of a skillful offensive team. In conclusion, smash is pretty much the least bannable move and I’m shocked you would even bring that up.

 

[Champion Leon]

I am interested in posting some sets that have been helpful.

Slaking (M) @ Normalium-Z / Ghostinium-Z
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Multi-Attack / Frustration
- Spectral Thief / Poltergeist
- Recover

Standard damage dealing Slaking, with a twist or two, thanks to its freedom from Toxic Orb, letting it block Trick, and weaken Knock Off.

This set hits almost as hard as PH, and brings with it some helpful utility in bouncing back hazards, status, encore, etc. Spectral Thief can allow it to soft check many things, while Multi-Attack lets it Max it’s Normalium-Z power for 1HKO on Arceus after Rocks;

+1 252+ Atk Slaking Breakneck Blitz (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus: 405-477 (91.2 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

On the other hand, Poltergeist can be used for the absolute power that puts Core Enforcer Giratina in check, especially in ways that PH Slaking cannot, holding onto a Z-move for a 1HKO without Rocks. Frustration is for for longer games, where you plan to set up more than a few boosts and you want to stay Improof.

+1 252+ Atk Slaking Never-Ending Nightmare (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 492-580 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

The Z-Crystals are based on their place on the Attack slashes. Suddenly, I am here to ensure Z-moves are now trending again. #Z-Move2.0

I’ll have more soon.

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

Here's my team I used if anyone is interested: https://pokepast.es/7cdd75f96a1ed876
Ash-Greninja's Fishious Rend: fishious rend * going first * rain * stab * strong jaw * choice band = 85 * 2 * 1.5 * 1.5 *1.5 * 1.5 = 860 BP move, absolutely ridiculous :P

 

[Chessking345]

Actually lost a game to Simple Smash Imprison Haze Trip TTar like wtf.
(Expressed my opinions on Smash before but I'm ban)

 

[avyrie]

reqs

some trashtalk

I’ve played mons for years and the whole time my favorite move has been smash. There have been dark times in my life, but being able to go play pokemans with my 6 shell smash mons has always got me through it. I am so happy for the chance to defend this move, think about it, there is no way that it is broken. This one time I used unaware spiritomb against a guy with smash mewtwo and his photon geyser was totally useless and I won that battle. I’m pretty sure this is ironclad evidence that smash can in fact be walled and people simply aren’t creative enough. People might get mad at me when I say they aren’t creative, but it’s true! I see uturn all the time which is clearly much more broken than allowing my 6 mons to Kio-Ken x2 smash on pretty much any turn they want. What u guys don’t see is that smash allows things to be balanced. Like Thanos said “perfectly balanced, as all things should be.” If we ban smash then we will have to name the tier unbalanced hackmons or stall mons, because smash is the only single offensive move in the game and getting rid of it will get rid of any prospect of a skillful offensive team. In conclusion, smash is pretty much the least bannable move and I’m shocked you would even bring that up.

this would be true in gen7, when fishbeak and psysurge didnt exist. in the current meta, mons like arceus water had to run fc to avoid the 2hko from strong attacks such as banded strong jaw greninja in rain, which opens up the opportunity for the gren user to use smash and brute force the opposing team after some chip on arc-water. similarly, prank is used to combat smash usually, but they cant afford to switch into fishbeak without fur coat. even max def zygod gets ohko'd by gren in rain (860 bp as seen above). another factor is psysurge, which was never unbanned along with smash, (gen8 smash banned then psysurge unbanned, gen7 psysurge banned), which limits revenge-killing counterplay, and thats with dynamax banned too, which was often used defensively to tank a hit and revenge kill a smashed mon, back when it wasnt banned.

smash isnt the single offensive move in the game. other set-up moves like shift gear exists. while its true that shift gear's power level is much lower, it isnt as centralizing as smash. its true that smash can be ultimately walled, but it requires more niche counterplay, not creative. spiritomb is just unviable and outclassed by mega sableye, which also isnt that great (i do like it a lot, but doesnt serve too well vs the meta). another thing is, due to how easy one can fit smash into a random attacker, it's basically mandantory to bring at least one smash check on your walls or your team can easily get swept/ heavily dented by the attacker, which opens up the opportunity for a second smasher to clean up. that's why smash spam is so good right now. if they get the prank matchup right (smash mmx vs prank registeel), they can easily run through your team without much skill and worrying. similarly, shift gear/ quiver dance sweepers can be also threatening, but doesn't pose an immediate threat to your team and can be revenged/ walled more easily.

last but not least, a lot of 'unviable' mons can become 'viable' due to smash, as it gives them immediate power to threaten teams which they originally don't have. i don't think this is a good way to 'diversify' the metagame, it just increases the already large number of threats we need to account for when teambuilding.

all in all, smash is undoubtedly over-centralizing and unhealthy for this metagame and should be banned. thank you for reading my trash talk

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

Today I want to read a few excerpts from a very offensive post that struck me to my core.

First off, lots of people have a certain propensity and proclivity towards impulsively banning smash but I am gratified that potentially permanent meta changes aren't allowed to be determined by nefariously odious ways as such would be a gravely iniquitous. We all know amateur opinions are not a substantive replacement for the venerable regulation of this tier. Unfortunately, MegaMetaboss is one such iniquitous character, hoping to undermine the proud tradition of BH with his insidious words.

spiritomb is just unviable and outclassed by mega sableye, which also isnt that great

Actually, I beat the elite 4 with spiritomb, and it is well know that the STRONGEST champion, Cynthia, runs spiritomb and not mega-sableye, negating your argument.

another thing is, due to how easy one can fit smash into a random attacker, it's basically mandantory to bring at least one smash check on your walls or your team can easily get swept/ heavily dented by the attacker, which opens up the opportunity for a second smasher to clean up.

This is what I mean when I say people aren't creative, maybe if you replaced uturn on every mon with topsy turvy or spectral thief and perfectly predicted every boost this wouldnt happen.

that's why smash spam is so good right now. if they get the prank matchup right (smash mmx vs prank registeel), they can easily run through your team without much skill and worrying.

This argument doesn't make any sense to me at all because I run unaware yveltal and in my extremely extensive experience this has allowed me to beat every single smash mon I've encountered. This one time I encountered smash Diancie, and perfectly predicting the reverse psychology of expecting me to switch I did the only logical thing, spectral thiefing the boosts and knocking diancie down 60%!

+2 252 Atk Yveltal Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Diancie-Mega: 163-192 (53.6 - 63.1%)

Since he was damaged he had to switch out. Later on in the battle I predicted another smash, but instead he used boomburst. Since I had CREATIVELY placed brightpowder on yveltal, expecting just such a thing, I was able to spectral thief diancie again and together with rocks damage was able to eliminate the threat. There was no matchup in this game, only skill.

last but not least, a lot of 'unviable' mons can become 'viable' due to smash, as it gives them immediate power to threaten teams which they originally don't have. i don't think this is a good way to 'diversify' the metagame, it just increases the already large number of threats we need to account for when teambuilding.

Maybe ur just salty I beat you with a level 1 BELLSPROUT and want to ban smash because it will make your life easier

all in all, smash is undoubtedly over-centralizing and unhealthy for this metagame and should be banned. thank you for reading my trash talk

While I have the highest respect for the pokemon mega metagross and have creatively incorporated him into many of my teams, his views are simply untenable and at odds with simple logic. Please don't allow smash to be banned. Thank you.

 

[G-Luke]

Please keep the shit posting to a minimum. More posts of that nature will be deleted. Even more and warnings will be distributed.

 

[anaconja]

The council has convened and finalized a VR! I forgot to reserve a post so once I get a resources post I'll put it there.

S
Chansey (Imposter)

S-
Blissey (Imposter)

A+
Greninja-Ash
Groudon-Primal
Mewtwo-Mega-X
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
Xerneas
Zygarde-Complete

A

Arceus-Dark

Arceus-Fairy

Arceus-Water
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen
Diancie-Mega
Giratina
Zacian-Crowned

A-

Arceus-Steel
Eternatus
Gengar-Mega
Ho-Oh
Yveltal

B+

Arceus-Ghost

Arceus-Poison
Deoxys-Attack
Regigigas
Slaking
Zamazenta-Crowned

B

Arceus-Fire
Dialga
Garchomp-Mega
Gyarados-Mega
Kartana
Kyurem-White
Lugia
Magearna
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Tyranitar-Mega

B-
Beedrill-Mega
Palkia
Registeel
Slowbro-Mega
Steelix-Mega
Swampert-Mega
Zamazenta
Zekrom

C
Aerodactyl-Mega
Arceus

Arceus-Ground

Arceus-Ice

Arceus-Rock
Audino-Mega
Celesteela
Chansey
Charizard-Mega-Y
Darmanitan-Zen
Ferrothorn
Kangaskhan (-Mega)
Kyurem-Black
Metagross-Mega
Necrozma-Ultra
Scizor-Mega
Solgaleo
Zacian

D
Alakazam-Mega

Arceus-Bug

Arceus-Electric

Arceus-Flying

Arceus-Grass
Blaziken-Mega
Buzzwole
Cresselia
Diancie
Doublade
Giratina-Origin
Hoopa-Unbound
Lunala
Melmetal
Muk-Alola
Pheromosa
Pikachu (Imposter)
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Sableye-Mega
Sceptile-Mega
Tapu Fini
Toxapex
Venusaur-Mega

Nominations and suggestions are welcome.

Additionally, since the MBH Open is up, the thread is open for sample team submissions! I may edit this post with some of my own teams.

 

[Caionamax]

wow this is my first viability ranking post ever!

and to B+/A they're both amazing bdrum users, (imposterproof) and if you play well this monsters after you kill the opposing prankster, you win. Here the set (they're not mine, I saw they in some match) :
Marshadow @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Belly Drum
- Poltergeist
- Close Combat

Landorus-Therian @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Precipice Blades
- Bolt Beak
- Poltergeist

 

[ShedMiddleFinga]

I'd like to point out that Chansey is in C tier (edit: nevermind I just realized that's FC chans that seems reasonable) and also nominate arceus electric to at least C tier, maybe B- due to efficacy with a wide variety of sets like regen/electric terrain/poison heal which mostly seem pretty niche but also are fairly annoying due to some genius giving bolt beak 16 pp.

 

[avyrie]

Just a random shower thought, but I think it’s pretty crucial to this metagame.

What I’m thinking is, MBH is a Pet Mod, not an OM. Therefore when dealing with a potentially broken aspect, instead of posing a suspect test or ban, it’s our responsibility, as the community, to try to make balanced submissions to change that broken aspect and make it fit healthily into the meta. Imo, only the Pokemon that is the hardest to balance, such as Shedinja, should be banned.

From my past albeit short experience in Pet Mods, there are no real ‘bans’ in any mods. Remember the premise of MBH v1? ‘This will be a Pet Mod where moves, mons, items, and abilities will be modified in an effort to create a more diversified Balanced Hackmons.’ Although MBH v2 has become Natdex BH and the diversification aspect no longer applies, modifying mons and moves can still apply to create a ‘Balanced’ Hackmons. So, instead of suspecting Shell Smash, we can try to make nerfed (why did autocorrect give better) versions of the move, to make it balanced in the meta while retaining its unique aspect of an incredibly powerful set-up move.

For example, Shell Smash can be modified to only boost speed by one stage. It potentially opens up more revenge-killing options to make it less broken. Well, this is definitely not the best modification, but that’s where the community part of a Pet Mod comes in, to provide more submissions and vote for the best one, so that we can all enjoy the meta the most. I believe that ALL current bans should be re-modified so that we can achieve what makes this meta a Pet Mod.

Realistically though, the MBH Open is about to start and this may not be a good time to make submissions/ change the meta. Here’s what I’m proposing: Keep the suspect going, and if it’s banned at last, it would be added to the list of mons/ moves/ abilities to be modified, with the suspect voters potentially having double votes for submissions they favor. The submissions would take place after the tournament had finished.

I know that this ‘mod’ is only created because it was rejected as an OM and people as OM players would likely favor bans over modifications, but I don’t think this ‘mod’ should be an exception to other mods as a non-modified meta. All in all, I strongly believe that modifying bans would be the best and correct way to develop a balanced meta. Let me know your thoughts on this suggestion. Thank you for reading my ted talk.

 

[anaconja]

Just a random shower thought, but I think it’s pretty crucial to this metagame.

What I’m thinking is, MBH is a Pet Mod, not an OM. Therefore when dealing with a potentially broken aspect, instead of posing a suspect test or ban, it’s our responsibility, as the community, to try to make balanced submissions to change that broken aspect and make it fit healthily into the meta. Imo, only the Pokemon that is the hardest to balance, such as Shedinja, should be banned.

From my past albeit short experience in Pet Mods, there are no real ‘bans’ in any mods. Remember the premise of MBH v1? ‘This will be a Pet Mod where moves, mons, items, and abilities will be modified in an effort to create a more diversified Balanced Hackmons.’ Although MBH v2 has become Natdex BH and the diversification aspect no longer applies, modifying mons and moves can still apply to create a ‘Balanced’ Hackmons. So, instead of suspecting Shell Smash, we can try to make nerfed (why did autocorrect give better) versions of the move, to make it balanced in the meta while retaining its unique aspect of an incredibly powerful set-up move.

For example, Shell Smash can be modified to only boost speed by one stage. It potentially opens up more revenge-killing options to make it less broken. Well, this is definitely not the best modification, but that’s where the community part of a Pet Mod comes in, to provide more submissions and vote for the best one, so that we can all enjoy the meta the most. I believe that ALL current bans should be re-modified so that we can achieve what makes this meta a Pet Mod.

Realistically though, the MBH Open is about to start and this may not be a good time to make submissions/ change the meta. Here’s what I’m proposing: Keep the suspect going, and if it’s banned at last, it would be added to the list of mons/ moves/ abilities to be modified, with the suspect voters potentially having double votes for submissions they favor. The submissions would take place after the tournament had finished.

I know that this ‘mod’ is only created because it was rejected as an OM and people as OM players would likely favor bans over modifications, but I don’t think this ‘mod’ should be an exception to other mods as a non-modified meta. All in all, I strongly believe that modifying bans would be the best and correct way to develop a balanced meta. Let me know your thoughts on this suggestion. Thank you for reading my ted talk.

I have considered this in the past, but what I am aiming for is NDBH. As the OP says, this is only a "pet mod" in name, but is treated like any other metagame where no mechanics are altered and any uncompetitive/unbalanced aspects of the metagame are banned outright. I'm even thinking about having this moved to the National Dex forum instead because that's where it fits better.

So this isn't a one-liner I wanted to nom Suicune to D rank, mostly because it's a budget Waterceus when you're using another Arceus slot.

Also, a set I've had a lot of success using:

Tyranitar-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Wicked Blow
- Triple Axel
- Shift Gear
With one Shift Gear Tyranitar-Mega's damage output reaches ridiculous levels:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 398-468 (89.6 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Water: 199-235 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar-Mega Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus: 498-594 (102.8 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and even without a boost it can really pressure walls:
252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar-Mega Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina on a critical hit: 424-502 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar-Mega Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel on a critical hit: 179-212 (49.1 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar-Mega Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 576-687 (90.5 - 108%) -- approx. 31.3% chance to OHKO

Pretty simple improofs are Magearna, Zamazenta-Crowned, Zacian-Crowned, or any really fat Fur Coat user.

 

[SuperSkylake]

On that gren set, Surging Strikes is a guaranteed critical hit on every hit meaning it's always a constant 75*1.5*1.5 = 168.5 BP before stab, which is about equal to Fisheous Rend with no boosting ability. The most annoying part is finding an improof. FC Tapu Fini or FC Arceus-water are both okay options, avoiding 2hKOs from everything.

I second the nomination of Suicune to D.

 

[anaconja]

The suspect test has ended. With 6/8 (75%) of the votes being ban (I'm voting ban), Shell Smash is banned. Tagging Kris

How is the meta now? Which mons benefit from this ban? Are there other moves/abilities/mons that should be suspected for being overcentralizing/overpowered? Some talking points that were brought up before include Fishious Rend/Bolt Beak/V-Create and Psychic Surge; when Shell Smash was brought up in Gen 7 BH Belly Drum was mentioned as well.