Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

[Johta]

Tbh odds are Z-moves are going to share their priority with mega-evolution or any other 'Item' command, as we have yet to see a Trainer action to have the same priority as a pokemon move. But there's a 1st for everything, so who knows.

 

[Project_Mars]

Considering Z-Moves are most likely all different, I would find it bizarre if they all had increased priority. A couple of them may (Like the One shown at Gamescom) but i find it hard to believe they'll do that for all of them.

But Priority Extreme Evoboost would be more usable, if it was a thing.

Not sure if I am ment to mention this here, but riddler's recent post which seemed a little bit convoluted as he spoke about predictions for the amount of pokemon for each type seemed to have confirmed that a number of pokemon are getting evolutions / pre evos.

Of the top of my head I remember he said that Jangmo-o and cutiefly will have a 3-stage evolutionary line, bounsweet, morelull, minior, komala and pyukumuku will all have evolutions, and that drampa, crabrawler, passimian and oranguru all have pre-evos [ well he said they had 2-stage evolutionary lines, and all these pokemon seem designed to be fully evolved pokemon ], he also said bruxish had a 2-stage evolutionary line, and although my gut tells me it'll be a pre-evo, as bruxish itself is already complicated enough of a design, I could still see it having an evolution.

He also confirmed that there will be 6 new dark type pokemon in SuMo!!

Alola Rattata/Raticate, Alola Meowth, Likely Alola Persian, and iirc Litten3 are all dark-types, so that makes 5, unless they aren't counting Alola forms. Bounsweet and Komalla having evolutions doesn't surprise me and morelull evolving was something several people guessed. Drampa being part of an evolution chain doesn't seem a surprise. Jangmo-o being a 3-stage evolution makes me think it will be the psuedo-legendary while cutiefly having one more evolution besides the one seen in a trailer seems interesting.

Pykumuku having an evolution is out of left field, Minior having one too is a mild surprise given that one post with the HP ranges put its base HP between 55 and 72, so it seemed to be possible either way. Crabrawler, Passimian, Oranguru, and Bruxish having preevolutions would indicate that they all have great stats, so they have that going for them, which is nice.

 

[Shadowmax]

Not sure if I am ment to mention this here, but riddler's recent post which seemed a little bit convoluted as he spoke about predictions for the amount of pokemon for each type seemed to have confirmed that a number of pokemon are getting evolutions / pre evos.

Of the top of my head I remember he said that Jangmo-o and cutiefly will have a 3-stage evolutionary line, bounsweet, morelull, minior, komala and pyukumuku will all have evolutions, and that drampa, crabrawler, passimian and oranguru all have pre-evos [ well he said they had 2-stage evolutionary lines, and all these pokemon seem designed to be fully evolved pokemon ], he also said bruxish had a 2-stage evolutionary line, and although my gut tells me it'll be a pre-evo, as bruxish itself is already complicated enough of a design, I could still see it having an evolution.

He also confirmed that there will be 6 new dark type pokemon in SuMo!!

do you have the link to that post of the riddler??

 

[Seiryus]

I'll be very sad if Drampa doesn't evolve into a Dragon/Ghost SkullGreymon.

BTW, are we on schedule for CoroCoro leaks? I feel like we got them earlier last month...

 

[Antihaxxer]

Coro Coro is officially out the 15th
Generally, it leaks on 12th, so it could happen in next hours or the day after, but we're sure to have some new infos before Saturday ;)

 

[Project_Mars]

Coro Coro is officially out the 15th
Generally, it leaks on 12th, so it could happen in next hours or the day after, but we're sure to have some new infos before Saturday ;)

Well It is now the 12th in Japan, so soonish maybe?

do you have the link to that post of the riddler??

I would like a PM of that link too.

 

[Absolclaw]

I hope Z-moves have the lowest priority in the game, because 'z' is the last letter in the alphabet.

 

[Johta]

Crabrawler, Passimian, Oranguru, and Bruxish having preevolutions would indicate that they all have great stats, so they have that going for them, which is nice.

It really doesn't indicate anything. Chimeco, Delcatty, Kricketune, Wigglytuff and Sunflora to name a few, are all plucking a hole in that logic.

 

[Norne]

Considering Z-Moves are most likely all different, I would find it bizarre if they all had increased priority. A couple of them may (Like the One shown at Gamescom) but i find it hard to believe they'll do that for all of them.

But Priority Extreme Evoboost would be more usable, if it was a thing.



Alola Rattata/Raticate, Alola Meowth, Likely Alola Persian, and iirc Litten3 are all dark-types, so that makes 5, unless they aren't counting Alola forms. Bounsweet and Komalla having evolutions doesn't surprise me and morelull evolving was something several people guessed. Drampa being part of an evolution chain doesn't seem a surprise. Jangmo-o being a 3-stage evolution makes me think it will be the psuedo-legendary while cutiefly having one more evolution besides the one seen in a trailer seems interesting.

Pykumuku having an evolution is out of left field, Minior having one too is a mild surprise given that one post with the HP ranges put its base HP between 55 and 72, so it seemed to be possible either way. Crabrawler, Passimian, Oranguru, and Bruxish having preevolutions would indicate that they all have great stats, so they have that going for them, which is nice.

Jangmo-o is more of an axew, a cool dinosaur that is close but no cigar to the 600 bst.

Seriously, I think these guys never showed the pseudo on leaks and magazines for 6 generations, Jangmo-o would fit the Axew archetype to a T if he is a 3stage mon.

 

[Project_Mars]

It really doesn't indicate anything. Chimeco, Delcatty, Kricketune, Wigglytuff and Sunflora to name a few, are all plucking a hole in that logic.

Yeah, a bit of a misstatement. Shoulda pointed out they have less of a chance to suck because they have preevos.

 

[Prof. Almeida]

Tbh odds are Z-moves are going to share their priority with mega-evolution or any other 'Item' command, as we have yet to see a Trainer action to have the same priority as a pokemon move. But there's a 1st for everything, so who knows.

That was exactly what I was thinking. Z move is a trainer action, and all the others, being it switch out, activating Mega Evos, running away from a battle or using items, all of them happen before any Pokémon action, so it's unlikely that they'd make it happen after some move.

Also, Eevee is extremely fragile. Without priority, it would never get the chance to go boost.

 

[thelandlordsmm]

That was exactly what I was thinking. Z move is a trainer action, and all the others, being it switch out, activating Mega Evos, running away from a battle or using items, all of them happen before any Pokémon action, so it's unlikely that they'd make it happen after some move.

Also, Eevee is extremely fragile. Without priority, it would never get the chance to go boost.

I'm going to go as far as saying that NO z-move would be usable without priority. You're giving up an entire item slot that could be dedicated to Leftovers, Choice Band/Specs/Scarf, etc. All for a move that you can only use once in the battle? It simply isn't worth it without increased priority unless they're guaranteed OHKO moves or something super broke like that.

 

[Siggu]

Thing is, it's both a Trainer action and a Pokemon action. The Trainer action is activating the Z-Move. The Pokemon action is performing it.

And in the case Z-Moves don't have increased priority... what if you are hit with Fake Out? Do you lose the Z-Move? Given how big the move is in VGC... they should have taken it into account. So they may have high priority.

 

[Darvin]

Alola Rattata/Raticate, Alola Meowth, Likely Alola Persian, and iirc Litten3 are all dark-types, so that makes 5, unless they aren't counting Alola forms.

Don't forget Ash-Greninja, which pushes the count up to 6. I'm certainly hoping we're overcounting here because it's always cool to have something more, but it's possible we already know the identity of all 6 of these SuMo dark types.

 

[Oddish.]

I can see z-moves having increased priority. The question is how much. Like Siggu pointed out, can z-moves be stopped by Fake Out? Can Protect be used before the z-move? What would that mean for the z-move? If it wasted? Considering how much z-moves are being hyped up, I can definitely see them having more than +1 priority. GF is (possibly) taking into account other priority moves and the fact that some pokemon might be too slow and/or frail to utilize their z-move at the right time.

 

[Project_Mars]

I'm going to go as far as saying that NO z-move would be usable without priority. You're giving up an entire item slot that could be dedicated to Leftovers, Choice Band/Specs/Scarf, etc. All for a move that you can only use once in the battle? It simply isn't worth it without increased priority unless they're guaranteed OHKO moves or something super broke like that.

Dragon Gem Draco Meteor, Water Gem Hydro Pump, and Flying Gem Acrobatics weren't uncommon in gen 5 though, iirc, and they are a very similar concept to Z-Crystals.

Edit:

I can see z-moves having increased priority. The question is how much. Like Siggu pointed out, can z-moves be stopped by Fake Out? Can Protect be used before the z-move? What would that mean for the z-move? If it wasted? Considering how much z-moves are being hyped up, I can definitely see them having more than +1 priority. GF is (possibly) taking into account other priority moves and the fact that some pokemon might be too slow and/or frail to utilize their z-move at the right time.

If it's anything like using regular moves, Fake Out wouldn't use up the Z-Move, but Protect would. (Which is why i'm looking at what can learn Feint.)

 

[Norne]

Priority Dragon gen Draco Meteor and flying gem hurricane on rain...

Gen 5 already shown us how easy it is to warp a metagame around consumables.

Seriously I hope this things don't have priority outside of hyper sprint.

 

[Axelsaurus]

People are underestimating Z-moves imho. If gems were a thing in 5th gen, Explosion is widely used (sometimes even Self Destruct) and berry + Natural Gift is a thing too even if gimmicky, I can't see why a powerful move with no drawbacks except for it having just 1PP should be that much more OP than that. The need for priority depends on the power of the move imho. It's almost confirmed that Z moves'll vary in power and effects: I'm expecting a priority (+2 at least) Z move to be around 150BP with no (or little) added effects, a 0 priority move with (consistent) secondary effect around 200-250BP and a 0 priority move with no (or little) secondary effect at 300BP. If they'll be something like this there's no need for them to have mandatory iper-priority, that'd just make them insanely OP and imho unhealthy: who wants something that you HAVE to take badly each time? Megas aren't that bad (except for a few broken options) so I can't see why all Z moves have to be that way. Z moves should be a powerful trump card with a degree of unpredictability (which pokémon will have one? And what kind of Z moves it'll have? It'll be STAB or coverage? Status, Physical or Special?) to add spice to the game, not an unbearable nuke which you can't handle anyway; that'd be boring. I understand the concern about Z moves resulting irrelevant 'cause too weak to actually be the right choice over items like life orb, leftovers etc etc..., but don't just assume they'll be trash without being insanely broken.

 

[Skunch]

People are underestimating Z-moves imho. If gems were a thing in 5th gen, Explosion is widely used (sometimes even Self Destruct) and berry + Natural Gift is a thing too even if gimmicky, I can't see why a powerful move with no drawbacks except for it having just 1PP should be that much more OP than that. The need for priority depends on the power of the move imho. It's almost confirmed that Z moves'll vary in power and effects: I'm expecting a priority (+2 at least) Z move to be around 150BP with no (or little) added effects, a 0 priority move with (consistent) secondary effect around 200-250BP and a 0 priority move with no (or little) secondary effect at 300BP. If they'll be something like this there's no need for them to have mandatory iper-priority, that'd just make them insanely OP and imho unhealthy: who wants something that you HAVE to take badly each time? Megas aren't that bad (except for a few broken options) so I can't see why all Z moves have to be that way. Z moves should be a powerful trump card with a degree of unpredictability (which pokémon will have one? And what kind of Z moves it'll have? It'll be STAB or coverage? Status, Physical or Special?) to add spice to the game, not an unbearable nuke which you can't handle anyway; that'd be boring. I understand the concern about Z moves resulting irrelevant 'cause too weak to actually be the right choice over items like life orb, leftovers etc etc..., but don't just assume they'll be trash without being insanely broken.

I think this might be a decent theory, things like evo boost would still work but other moves would be limited and not broken, cause honestly I don't think they'll have priority above protect, there should be SOME gamble in using them. I think at the very most they'll be +2 priority like extreme speed.

 

[TheMantyke]

The conversation is veering back to competitive speculation again. As often as this thread descends into endless tangental conversations, it isn't its purpose. It's to discuss what we have. If you want to dig deeper into something, feel free to dissect the content we have. Dragging the conversation into countless "what ifs" bloats the thread with a lot of meaningless content.

 

[Norne]

The conversation is veering back to competitive speculation again. As often as this thread descends into endless tangental conversations, it isn't its purpose. It's to discuss what we have. If you want to dig deeper into something, feel free to dissect the content we have. Dragging the conversation into countless "what ifs" bloats the thread with a lot of meaningless content.

Honestly I didn't mean for it to be taken competitively, I merely pointed out that we have had a similar mechanic just one generation away and now it is returning with a vengeance and cool animations.

Using old examples to justify our theory crafting of a new mechanic is actually encouraged in most discussion, I won't dip on details and BP power or cost effectiveness, I was just saying that we know the element a similar mechanic had in the past.

 

[Kurona]

I don't think we have much evidence one way or the other. All this conversation would amount to is a back-and-forth of "I think"s and "This would make sense"s.

 

[Oddish.]

At least we're getting more news soon, so it won't be long before we can talk about things we actually know about Sun and Moon. :)

 

[TheMantyke]

Honestly I didn't mean for it to be taken competitively, I merely pointed out that we have had a similar mechanic just one generation away and now it is returning with a vengeance and cool animations.

Using old examples to justify our theory crafting of a new mechanic is actually encouraged in most discussion, I won't dip on details and BP power or cost effectiveness, I was just saying that we know the element a similar mechanic had in the past.

My post wasn't aimed at anyone specifically, but the whole last two pages or so have been diluted with a bunch of speculation. The whole "Will Z-moves have priority" conversation has drawn attention from what I feel are some pretty good posts like The Diverman's post about how the Sun and Moon set's TCG description didn't indicate much. Honestly, the conversation should have stopped with a single response akin to what Project Mars said in the opening of this post.

The kind of post I want to see, and I'm fairly sure the rest of the OI mod team want to see, are posts that dissect existing information. For the sort of question that kicked this off, let me try and re-ask it in a way I think we'd like to see more of in this thread:

Good: "Do we have any evidence of Z-moves having priority?"
Bad: "Do you think Z-moves will have priority? "

The first response is good because it encourages digging into what we have already for more information. The second is bad because it allows everyone to chime in with their personal wishlist or perception of the games so far.

These sort of threads are infamous for having super low quality discussion and speculation is often at the heart of it. I'm pretty sure the HGSS prerelease discussion thread was moved to trou du cul after it's japanese release and renamed the "HGSS Mega Speculation Thread" or something it was that bad. I know that waiting on corocoro leaks to drop is like waiting for christmas at times, but please don't use this thread as a chatroom. If you want to do that, hop on OI's IRC channel. If you want to discuss competitive implications of existing SuMo stuff, try talking about it on Smogon's Discord channel.

 

[Project_Mars]

On that note: Has Nintendo ever preempted Corocoro with stuff in said issue of Corocoro? We are getting some new info the day before the issue comes out afterall.

EDIT: Also the text mentioning what would be in this month's CoroCoro was kinda vague in a way. Talking about "the true strength of Type: Null" doesn't automatically mean game-play relevant stuff since they could reiterate how it was built for battle, mention it being a combination of parts from other pokemon and mention which ones, and either allude to or outright mention where it came from (odds are Aether Foundation) and still be accurate in what they promised.