oh my god lol standard Chansey is 252 Defense 252 Special Defense 4 HP what are you talking about rofl
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General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Fireburn
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If SkarmBliss is dismantled by Mewtwo (although SpD Jirachi in the rain is like the only thing that walls Mewtwo? @_@) then what makes a good partner for Skarmory?
Also this might be better suited for the CCAT thread, but: from my playtesting, I'm close to concluding that Deoxys-A is a bad Pokemon. It can't take a hit, so it needs to OHKO its targets. But it can't OHKO its targets. Not only is it relatively easy to play around (mispredict and it dies, etc), at full health there are plenty of Pokemon that survive and hit back: most Arceus formes, Kyogre, Dialga, Lugia, etc etc. The self-inflicted stat drops are maddening, not helped by the fact that you can't NOT run Psycho Boost / Superpower (I tried giving up Psycho Boost once, and then 252 SpA +ve nature LO Psychic fails to OHKO a Thundurus ...). Deoxys-A gets Extremespeed, but the damage output is extremely weak. Hitting 30% on Arceus is simply not good enough.
The only way Deoxys-A is going to nuke anything is if it gets massive amounts of hazard support, but the amount of support you need to invest then - Ferrothorn / Forretress / Skarmory + Giratina / Giratina-O / Ghost Arceus - leaves you vulnerable to many other threats. After all, you are playing one Pokemon down. Deoxys-A will not be able to switch into anything other than support moves, unlike for example other offensive Pokemon like Darkrai, who while by no means bulky it can switch into Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak, among others. What's more, if you can get that amount of hazard support down, you could equally sweep with Darkrai or Mewtwo or something, who can actually set up their own sweeps and / or attack without having to lower their own stats ...
I guess the other thing to do with Deoxys-A is to break down walls, but you could achieve the same thing with Choice Band / Choice Specs and still have more resistances to use. Finally there's leading, but although I'm fully with shrang that people don't prepare for Deoxys-S anymore (my own team doesn't, lol), but team preview does go a long way to eliminating the lead metagame.
Someone tell me what Deoxys-A can do better than everyone else ... it just seems to me like it's only good for the case where you've already used all the better sweepers you can find and you still need more offensive power (i.e. you're playing heavy offense).
Also this might be better suited for the CCAT thread, but: from my playtesting, I'm close to concluding that Deoxys-A is a bad Pokemon. It can't take a hit, so it needs to OHKO its targets. But it can't OHKO its targets. Not only is it relatively easy to play around (mispredict and it dies, etc), at full health there are plenty of Pokemon that survive and hit back: most Arceus formes, Kyogre, Dialga, Lugia, etc etc. The self-inflicted stat drops are maddening, not helped by the fact that you can't NOT run Psycho Boost / Superpower (I tried giving up Psycho Boost once, and then 252 SpA +ve nature LO Psychic fails to OHKO a Thundurus ...). Deoxys-A gets Extremespeed, but the damage output is extremely weak. Hitting 30% on Arceus is simply not good enough.
The only way Deoxys-A is going to nuke anything is if it gets massive amounts of hazard support, but the amount of support you need to invest then - Ferrothorn / Forretress / Skarmory + Giratina / Giratina-O / Ghost Arceus - leaves you vulnerable to many other threats. After all, you are playing one Pokemon down. Deoxys-A will not be able to switch into anything other than support moves, unlike for example other offensive Pokemon like Darkrai, who while by no means bulky it can switch into Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak, among others. What's more, if you can get that amount of hazard support down, you could equally sweep with Darkrai or Mewtwo or something, who can actually set up their own sweeps and / or attack without having to lower their own stats ...
I guess the other thing to do with Deoxys-A is to break down walls, but you could achieve the same thing with Choice Band / Choice Specs and still have more resistances to use. Finally there's leading, but although I'm fully with shrang that people don't prepare for Deoxys-S anymore (my own team doesn't, lol), but team preview does go a long way to eliminating the lead metagame.
Someone tell me what Deoxys-A can do better than everyone else ... it just seems to me like it's only good for the case where you've already used all the better sweepers you can find and you still need more offensive power (i.e. you're playing heavy offense).
In a reply to the above post, I don't think skarm/bliss exists anymore. Rather, skarm/chansey is the new thing. Personally, I don't use skarm in ubers, unless I'm using a hard stall team and want spikes support. Chansey is much more useful, being able to handle the special-oriented ubers metagame while also being able to take a few physical hits. As for mewtwo, i've been using arceus dark to counter it. I think arceus-psychic could also work, although I've never tried it. Jirachi in rain is alright, but with arceus-dark/psychic, you'll still be able to counter mewtwo, but you'll also have a really good stallbreaker in case you're playing an opposing stall team. Of course, with jirachi, you get wish/stealth rock support, so it just depends on what you want.
Banedon, although hazards help, you don't necessarily need to depend solely on hazards to rack up damage to the opponent's team. Your other team members can wear down the team with status / heavy hits to the extent that Deoxys-A can clean up late game.
You may want to look at locoghoul's team for inspiration. He also provides some log replays of Deoxys-A in action. If you're sick with the stat drops, you can take his route with Psyshock + Low Kick, although I feel that Psycho Boost is still better.
You may want to look at locoghoul's team for inspiration. He also provides some log replays of Deoxys-A in action. If you're sick with the stat drops, you can take his route with Psyshock + Low Kick, although I feel that Psycho Boost is still better.
I really dont see whats so hard about building a team with Deo A. Its a stand alone attacker that can also double as a revenge killer. Supporting it properly really only amounts to getting it in and out safely.
It isn't easy to support something that can die to unSTABed resisted moves <,<
Anything it doesn't OHKO is definitely going to OHKO back so it's not as easy to build a team around it.
Non-Ubers standard, even if you're going to get your pants in a twist about it, it still doesn't matter if you convert it to Ubers standard because the point still stands. Chansey doesn't give a care what you do with Aura Sphere and Psystrike still is only a 2 hit at best. You still have to play cat and mouse with it as it can still survive a attack and status back or run off to a counter.
Why not try a slow U-Turner/Volt Switcher? I'm sure you could get some use out of Jirachi or some sort, it kinda partners up with Chansey quite well if you don't want Skarm. Still there is an element of prediction but at least you're finally getting it in and you sorta have the fundamental skeleton of a SkarmBliss-esque setup.
Have to admit that whilst Deoxys-A isn't setting the world alight, it does have a certain spot as a very powerful and fast revenge killer, try using it more like how you might use Weavile in OU or UU. I have noticed though the successful Deoxys-A sets don't use Superpower or Psycho Boost and opt for Low Kick/Extremespeed/Psycho Shock instead and its usually the last slot which drives me crazy with the unpredictability.
I honestly don't see why you would use Arceus-Psychic at all, especially in a metagame inhabited by the likes of Psychics such as Lugia, Mewtwo, Deoxys. At least Arceus Dark still makes sense as its still going to be far bulkier and versatile than Darkrai.
The problem is, if you can wear down the other team with status / heavy hits then why don't you clean up with Mewtwo / EK Arceus / Darkrai? Especially the latter two. You've got a lot more bulk than Deoxys-A, so you can find time to set up, and then after that go for the full sweep. I still want to try Deoxys-A though. locoghoul mind if I steal your team for use? :naughty:
Forsety said:
I tried ... I had three U-turners and Volt Switchers (Jirachi, Forretress, Scizor). It didn't work. The problem was that with Jirachi and Forretress, I usually don't U-turn / Volt Switch at once because of the support moves I have to use (entry hazards, Wish). After that a threatening sweeper is in that threatens to OHKO Forretress or severely dent Jirachi, which leaves no time to U-turn / Volt Switch. Example: I bring in Forretress in the rain, he goes to Palkia as I put up Spikes. Now I can't Volt Switch because I die to Surf. I can switch out to a Palkia counter, but then where does Deoxys-A come in? With Jirachi, I usually sponge a hit when I get in and then Wish as my opponent switches. Again, let's say my opponent brings in Palkia. If U-turn with Jirachi, it takes a big hit and it's the end of Jirachi's participation in the game. But if I stay in, again I cannot use Deoxys-A.
What's even worse is that suppose I get Jirachi in without taking damage at all, and then U-turn as my opponent switches to Palkia. Now what? I still can't go to Deoxys-A because he could reasonably be Scarfed. Once we add Scarfed Pokemon to the Pokemon that Deoxys-A cannot OHKO, we get a very long list of stuff that Deoxys-A is powerless against. As for revenge killing, there are plenty of capable revenge killers in the tier, viz. Scarf Kyogre, Scarf Terrakion, etc.
So yeah I'll try locoghoul's team out if he doesn't mind, but not very hopeful.
@Kefka - lol, my Deoxys-A survived a critical hit once! Guess which move it was? :)
Forretress's Rapid Spin - lol!
Wasn't that against me, lol?
Because Deoxys-A has no counters. You could say the same about Darkrai and Mewtwo (specially Darkrai because Dark Void) but its physical moves give him more versatility imo. Also, his Extremespeed hits harder than Mixquaza's and Luke's so revenge killers might be in trouble if they come in with ~50ish%.
Also, I don't try to "sweep" with Deoxys-A. Rather than "creating a hole in one poke" (using Psycho Boost) like many people think, I try to dent more than one so other members (Palkia, Ho-Oh and maybe RP Groudon) have an easier time mid to late game.
WHAT!? Someone copypasting a NON-rain team???? Sacrilege! If anything, I'll see one less rain team in the ladder. Go for it, but I'm not fan of people using other's team because....
THIS. If you are not behind the team's idea then you don't really understand some synergies or how to deal with certain threats. That's why I included some replays. Those are actually decent replays against good players (I have several rage quits or just boring sweeps that show nothing) so you could get the idea of how to deal with -mainly- rain teams, something a sun team usually have trouble dealing with. That's why is so easy to copy/paste a rain team (not that you really need to copypaste one), because is super easy to know what to do: bring in Kyogre, attack; switch to Ferro to sponge attack, T-wave/Leech Seed/Spikes, switch to Tenta or Gira-O, etc, etc. How is a rain replay helping you in anyway? "If they bring in Palkia, switch to Chansey" Big advice. "My rain team is unique because I use Ground Arceus instead of *insert random Arceus/filler poke* so it gives great synergy with Kyogre and Manaphy" Really? No kidding.
I have a troll team that got me more win/lose ratio than that sun team but it has to be played well because of its trollish-gimmicky nature.
locoghoul said:
Really? Watch your own games and see how good Deoxys-A is.
First game vs. -Stone-: Deoxys-A shows up for all of the last two turns finishing off Pokemon any late-game sweeper could've done.
Second game vs. drcossack: Your opponent had nothing that could handle Deoxys-A. His entire team cannot switch into it even if they predict right (getting a Pokemon in on a resisted attack, for example), especially after Forretress got up all four layers of hazards, and no priority attack to stop Deoxys-A either. You swept with Deoxys-A this game, not set up one of your other members. In fact in all your games Deoxys-A only takes the field late in the game, so you aren't making "an easier mid to late game" for one of your other Pokemon.
Third game vs. mibuchiha: your Deoxys-A didn't even take the field this game.
Fourth game vs. imakeuragequit: your opponent had a Chansey with no status move - he had Wish, Protect, Seismic Toss, Heal Bell. That's literally screaming "set up on me" right there. If instead of Deoxys-A you had an Extremekiller Arceus, you could've gone for and probably gotten the sweep right there on turn 30.
Fifth game vs. Undefeatable: again your opponent's entire team is 2HKOed, and he had no priority. And again, you swept with Deoxys-A.
If beating opponents with a serious weakness to one of your Pokemon meant something, I can post lots of CM Manaphy sweeps for you. Also your replays were "if they bring in Kyogre, switch to Palkia, if they bring in Mewtwo, go to Jirachi", etc. Big advice. Your sun team is unique because it's got Deoxys-A instead of Dialga / insert filler Poke. Really? No kidding. 2/3 of your team are bog standard for sun, and you've given up on a spinblocker in spite of your hazard stacking, not to mention running with only one Water resist with no recovery other than Wish from Jirachi, to make room for the other two Pokemon. Your team is successful because Jirachi, Palkia, Ho-oh, Forretress and Groudon are punching above their weight, as your first and third games show.
But then you are obviously an accomplished and proficient Ubers battler, so what do I know?
Double dancing groudon is an underrated threat. Countless times Ive been swept by this thing, Its not as easy as not letting it set up, because most of the times people mistake it for support groudon, I'm generally surprised when I see it set up and sweep me D:<
deoxys-a is a good 'mon, i find it at home on heavy ubers offense teams, it can come in to revenge with espeed or just a normal move; it blows holes in tonnes of your standard 'mons, gira-o, 4/0 kyogre, 252/0 groudon are all ohko'd by psycho boost; thunder makes lugia think twice about switching in -
use it as a hit and run attacker until it has a chance to sweep lategame. you shouldn't have to bring it in more than 3 times a match tbh.
use it as a hit and run attacker until it has a chance to sweep lategame. you shouldn't have to bring it in more than 3 times a match tbh.
^It's great to be able to OHKO 4/0 Kyogre and 252/0 Groudon, but if you're switching into either safely it generally means you've already lost a Pokemon ... unless you are confident Giratina-O does not have Shadow Sneak, you can't revenge it either. Also you can't sweep with Deoxys-A late-game because of the stat drops =/
My personal opinion of Deoxys-A has improved somewhat, but I still don't think it's a good Pokemon. The big problem is that using Deoxys-A means you're playing one Pokemon down when it comes to switching. Darkrai is no wall, but you can still bring it in on Giratina-O or Forretress / Ferrothorn and live. Shaymin-S crumbles to almost any hit, but it is still immune to ground and can take Ferrothorn's Power Whip / Leech Seed. And so on. Deoxys-A cannot switch into anything without risking death (although I've found a couple more attacks that don't OHKO Deoxys-A lol ... Jirachi's Body Slam and Forretress's Volt Switch). It is only ever going to come in on a revenge kill, on a slow U-turn, on a forced switch (e.g. Scarf Kyogre locked into Thunder vs. a Groudon) or after Explosion / Healing Wish etc. Not nice at all. I'm curious to see what turns out of the CCAT, maybe the community can create something I can't.
Deoxys-A needs a recoil-less set on the analysis page, locoghoul's set (a variant of it, anyway) has been proving far more effective than the Psycho Boost version. For me, at least.
Smashpass has been seeing a fair bit of play on the ladder recently, man is that strategy dangerous + hard to stop, but should the pass fail the team usually collapses in spectacular fashion.
I think Skarmory deserves more play. It is arguably the best check out there to EK Arceus, especially with a physically defensive spread. Overheat still squashes it, but it is crucially immune to Spikes. With the spinblockers being so much more powerful than the spinners, I find a lot of my games end up with full hazards down on both sides ...
EK Arceus is so absurdly deadly I'm beginning to think a team should have at least two checks to it. Being able to OHKO most Uber Pokemon with a priority move after hazard support is one thing, being able to OHKO them with a priority move at full health is a completely different matter ~_~
I'm having some difficulty killing Dialga with my rain team. I can wall it, but I can't kill it, and it phazes around with all those hazards. Which rain-viable Pokemon are there that can take out Dialga, other than Mewtwo and Darkrai (both of whom I'm considering using)? Dialga was actually one reason I used Deoxys-A for a while, Low Kick comes very close to OHKO'ing it, but Deoxys-A isn't enough of a team player for me =(
I wish Soul Dew gets released soon, I want to use Latias and Latios!
My personal opinion of Deoxys-A has improved somewhat, but I still don't think it's a good Pokemon. The big problem is that using Deoxys-A means you're playing one Pokemon down when it comes to switching. Darkrai is no wall, but you can still bring it in on Giratina-O or Forretress / Ferrothorn and live. Shaymin-S crumbles to almost any hit, but it is still immune to ground and can take Ferrothorn's Power Whip / Leech Seed. And so on. Deoxys-A cannot switch into anything without risking death (although I've found a couple more attacks that don't OHKO Deoxys-A lol ... Jirachi's Body Slam and Forretress's Volt Switch). It is only ever going to come in on a revenge kill, on a slow U-turn, on a forced switch (e.g. Scarf Kyogre locked into Thunder vs. a Groudon) or after Explosion / Healing Wish etc. Not nice at all. I'm curious to see what turns out of the CCAT, maybe the community can create something I can't.
Deoxys-A needs a recoil-less set on the analysis page, locoghoul's set (a variant of it, anyway) has been proving far more effective than the Psycho Boost version. For me, at least.
Smashpass has been seeing a fair bit of play on the ladder recently, man is that strategy dangerous + hard to stop, but should the pass fail the team usually collapses in spectacular fashion.
I think Skarmory deserves more play. It is arguably the best check out there to EK Arceus, especially with a physically defensive spread. Overheat still squashes it, but it is crucially immune to Spikes. With the spinblockers being so much more powerful than the spinners, I find a lot of my games end up with full hazards down on both sides ...
EK Arceus is so absurdly deadly I'm beginning to think a team should have at least two checks to it. Being able to OHKO most Uber Pokemon with a priority move after hazard support is one thing, being able to OHKO them with a priority move at full health is a completely different matter ~_~
I'm having some difficulty killing Dialga with my rain team. I can wall it, but I can't kill it, and it phazes around with all those hazards. Which rain-viable Pokemon are there that can take out Dialga, other than Mewtwo and Darkrai (both of whom I'm considering using)? Dialga was actually one reason I used Deoxys-A for a while, Low Kick comes very close to OHKO'ing it, but Deoxys-A isn't enough of a team player for me =(
I wish Soul Dew gets released soon, I want to use Latias and Latios!
Yeah, Dialga is a fucking pest. Ground Arceus is good, you can pretty much switch into anything apart from Specs Draco Meteor or something. CB Chomp is also pretty fun to use. Bulky Excadrill doesn't take that much from Dialga in the rain and gives you the luxury of spinning hazards away. All the of the above have an asset of being Thunder immune. You can also try stuff like Fighting Arceus. You can also wear it down with stuff like ExtremeKiller Arceus if you really can't fit anything else in.
Depends on the team you are using but usually hazards are your friend.
Rain: Your own Dialga or Kabutops (hint: try Wobba).
Sun: RP Groudon, Ho-Oh (even if you get phazed Sacred Fire leaves cripples him), Reshiram, Fire Blast Mewtwo (not OHKO but can kill below 75%)
Sand: Excadrill, TTar with Low Kick (Superpower sucks), LO Chomp or SubSD Chomp.
What do you mean? LO is the best item for him. His HP is garbage so 10% for a 1.3 boost on every attack is obscenely cheap. If you mean stats drop then that's another story (that I've been trying to point out for a while)
Rain: Your own Dialga or Kabutops (hint: try Wobba).
Sun: RP Groudon, Ho-Oh (even if you get phazed Sacred Fire leaves cripples him), Reshiram, Fire Blast Mewtwo (not OHKO but can kill below 75%)
Sand: Excadrill, TTar with Low Kick (Superpower sucks), LO Chomp or SubSD Chomp.
What do you mean? LO is the best item for him. His HP is garbage so 10% for a 1.3 boost on every attack is obscenely cheap. If you mean stats drop then that's another story (that I've been trying to point out for a while)
Lol I completely forgot about Ground types and only thought of Fighting attacks. Excadrill sounds like it has potential, not so sure about Garchomp though because it's ... not very powerful.
@locoghoul - Yes I meant the stat drop "recoil". http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3458756. Dialga vs. Dialga is a draw more or less, while Kabutops gets walled (er? Not only are its STABs resisted, Dialga kills it with Thunder). Also tried Wobbuffet but then Dialga just locks itself into SR and I still haven't killed it ... I can set up something else then but I still haven't killed it ...
@locoghoul - Yes I meant the stat drop "recoil". http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3458756. Dialga vs. Dialga is a draw more or less, while Kabutops gets walled (er? Not only are its STABs resisted, Dialga kills it with Thunder). Also tried Wobbuffet but then Dialga just locks itself into SR and I still haven't killed it ... I can set up something else then but I still haven't killed it ...
I would use Mild or Rash and more EVs into attack (discussed on the CCAT thread already) but that's me. Kabutops have Low Kick for Ferrothorn and Dialga. Support Dialga can't take full HP Water Spouts too well. 252/0 neutral nature takes around 50% ircc.
Yeah, I've been seeing more smashpass teams too, which is basically just gorebyss + sometimes wobb support + pass to mixed dialga/rayquaza/palkia or whatever. I've been using roar giratina but every gorebyss has ice beam and it takes a hefty amount from it unless you're specially defensive. I'm thinking roar/dragon tail dialga could be a nice counter too, if it doesn't have white herb, you could just draco metor it while it's at -2 defenses and hoko whatever it passes too. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of other ways to beat shell smash passing, I see it as something that is VERY annoying and cheap, but not something that will ever become a major threat in ubers.
As for part two of your post about people not using skarm, the main problem is that it's in serious competition with ferrothron and forretress for that team slot.
When I first said Skarm is the Latias of the BW metagame, I wasn't kidding. Use the SpD spread, Arceus cannot touch it one single bit. It can't 2HKO with Overheat even in neutral weather. It has very defined qualities over Ferrothorn and Forretress, for 1) reliable recovery and 2) the other two cannot beat Arceus, like ever.
Post in that thread locoghoul ... also if Deoxys-A can't OHKO Dialga with Low Kick, clearly Kabutops can't either ~_~
Strangely the Smashpass teams I've been facing are based around Smeargle. I actually lost one game to it in five turns (lol) and since then I've changed some stuff around to be more capable of dealing with Smashpass. It sucks that Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak cannot hit Smeargle, but there's still Extremespeed and Bullet Punch to finish Smeargle before he passes. It's also possible to priority Taunt Deoxys-S, fake a set with entry hazards and make it Taunt you, use a Pokemon with Lum Berry or set up on it. Substitute is especially dangerous. But yeah Smashpass will probably never be a major threat in Ubers. It's based around Baton Pass after all, which immediately makes it especially vulnerable to hax.
@shrang - Lol, was Latias underestimated / underused in DPPt Ubers or something? And I like the physically defensive spread, it makes for a better wall vs. Rayquaza Groudon and so on. Specially defensive is fine, but you take so much more damage from EK Arceus's attacks that you can be worn down (or taken out with a crit). It does make Skarmory a lot more vulnerable to Overheat, but then not many Arceus's I've seen have that, and my physically defensive Skarmory actually lived one Zekrom's Bolt Strike lol.
Also #3 and #4 for Skarmory over Ferrothorn / Forretress: it it's immune to Spikes, and it can phaze.
Strangely the Smashpass teams I've been facing are based around Smeargle. I actually lost one game to it in five turns (lol) and since then I've changed some stuff around to be more capable of dealing with Smashpass. It sucks that Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak cannot hit Smeargle, but there's still Extremespeed and Bullet Punch to finish Smeargle before he passes. It's also possible to priority Taunt Deoxys-S, fake a set with entry hazards and make it Taunt you, use a Pokemon with Lum Berry or set up on it. Substitute is especially dangerous. But yeah Smashpass will probably never be a major threat in Ubers. It's based around Baton Pass after all, which immediately makes it especially vulnerable to hax.
@shrang - Lol, was Latias underestimated / underused in DPPt Ubers or something? And I like the physically defensive spread, it makes for a better wall vs. Rayquaza Groudon and so on. Specially defensive is fine, but you take so much more damage from EK Arceus's attacks that you can be worn down (or taken out with a crit). It does make Skarmory a lot more vulnerable to Overheat, but then not many Arceus's I've seen have that, and my physically defensive Skarmory actually lived one Zekrom's Bolt Strike lol.
Also #3 and #4 for Skarmory over Ferrothorn / Forretress: it it's immune to Spikes, and it can phaze.
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