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General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Fireburn
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Dream Eater? I think you're just lower in the ladder x_x
You wont see good players in Ubers until the top.
Btw, is there any reason to use SD Quaza over EK Arceus? EK Arceus is better at sweeping, but SD Quaza easily kills Giratina and doesn't fear Steels as much.
And Rayquaza just looks better, but that's just my opinion :P
The only sets of Ray that are worth using are the mixed one,that easily destroys Groudon so another physical sweeper can finish and the DD variant,but you must build your whole team around it,because it needs scarfers,priority and Groudon eliminated before it sweeps.
Rayquaza is a difficult pokes to use and fills very specific purposes this gen.
In D/P he was the only SD Extremespeed demon in the tier and that alone was reason enough to use SD Ray. But now that more priority is in Ubers(mainly NormalCeus) and that NormalCeus stole one of his roles he is more difficult to fit in a team.
But once you do he is very good at what he does.Mixed Ray is a pro at breaking walls!
Rayquaza is a difficult pokes to use and fills very specific purposes this gen.
In D/P he was the only SD Extremespeed demon in the tier and that alone was reason enough to use SD Ray. But now that more priority is in Ubers(mainly NormalCeus) and that NormalCeus stole one of his roles he is more difficult to fit in a team.
But once you do he is very good at what he does.Mixed Ray is a pro at breaking walls!
@Kefka Palazzo™ : he was talking about SubDarkrai, not the move dream eater I guess.
EKceus's better because of his bulk, his type and his raw power. Yeah, Ray can take out Giratina easily, but thats all. Still, I guess there is some team where Ray'll shine more than EKceus.
EKceus's better because of his bulk, his type and his raw power. Yeah, Ray can take out Giratina easily, but thats all. Still, I guess there is some team where Ray'll shine more than EKceus.
@Alexwolf SD Ray actually pairs pretty well with E-Speedkiller Arceus. Give One of them Fire Blast/Overheat (generally Arceus (over Shadow Claw Giratina-A is handled better By Ray and Lugia doesn't take enough for it to be to noteworthy) if Groudon is present for Pseudo-STAB, or Ray (over EQ as the coverage has a fair bit of overlap) if otherwise as to avoid Having Ogre compromise it) as to beat the Steels that are Neutral/Immune to Ground (Ferrothorn, Scizor, Forry, Skarm, the Odd Zong, and Genesect in DW)) the one with the fire move Wreaks havoc mid-Game and the one without cleans house end-game.
And BTW I have had A team that Ray actually fit better than E-Speedkiller (admitedly I was already using a Defensive Arceus Ghost).
And BTW I have had A team that Ray actually fit better than E-Speedkiller (admitedly I was already using a Defensive Arceus Ghost).
"I'm seeing lot's of Dream Eater Substitute Darkrai's why?"
Pretty sure he was talking about Dream Eater + Sub.
dream eater makes perfect sense on darkrai, I mean it hits all the fighting pokemon in the teir for super effective damage! lol.....
Lmao, dream eater darkrai.
While i haven't been laddering in ubers too much lately, I did notice a slight spike in Deoxys-S Screen Support / Shell Smashing Smeragle or Gorebyess bs teams. If Ditto gets released that'll definitely deter people from using this, nobody likes getting counter-swept because ditto copied all of your boosts.
I agree though there has a been a spike in Deoxys-S usage in general with Dual Screens and Spikes being used. This can be easily attested to the rise of offense in Ubers which is nice I think.
Deoxys-S was always very good in Ubers! But just because he was OU(and pretty low in OU some months) most Uber players(and the skill of the average player in ubers is not that good)thouth that it wasn't good in Ubers...
But now that he is Uber, once more, everyone will start using him again,as they realize how good he is at doing its job!
But now that he is Uber, once more, everyone will start using him again,as they realize how good he is at doing its job!
Or maybe people didn't use it as much because of team preview? Team preview really hurt Deoxys-s. =/
Its always been (and always will be, LO Deoxys is doing it wrong in Ubers) and always will be a suicide lead, so unless they decide to lead with Thundurus (and Darkrai I suppose, although you still get one hazard/ screen), it doesn't really matter for the Deoxys user what the opponent does with the Team Preview knowledge.
Yeah, but because of team preview, you can more easily counter Deoxys-s unlike the previous generation where you actually had to switch out to counter it or something if your lead wasn't able to stop it from getting a lot of hazards.
Priority Taunt, bait it into Taunting you as you attack / U-turn to Pokemon with priority move / can Trick it a choice item, Scarf Darkrai / Shaymin-S, Magic Coat, Magic Bounce, stuff like Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak can 2HKO in return for one layer of hazards.
I would agree though that it seems many teams aren't prepared to cope with Deoxys-S leads. Certainly the teams I've been using have a good chance of letting Deoxys-S get up two layers ...
So by this point I've used all the common Ubers, as well as some of the more uncommon ones. The following are the ones I'm still curious about, but haven't used:
Shaymin-S
Thundurus
Ice Arceus
Electric Arceus
I have played against a few of the former two. Shaymin-S is nonsense if it gets perma flinches, but quite manageable if it doesn't. Thundurus doesn't seem to do anything. Priority Taunt is great, the strongest Thunder in the game is appealing too, but its SpA isn't strong and it doesn't get Dark Void. Or Tailwind, for that matter. The remaining two Arceus formes I have never seen before. Ice Arceus presumably has serious trouble with its lack of resistances and weakness to Stealth Rock, but Electric Arceus being completely extinct doesn't make sense.
Anyone with extensive experience with these four? What goes well with them, and why?
Shaymin-S
Thundurus
Ice Arceus
Electric Arceus
I have played against a few of the former two. Shaymin-S is nonsense if it gets perma flinches, but quite manageable if it doesn't. Thundurus doesn't seem to do anything. Priority Taunt is great, the strongest Thunder in the game is appealing too, but its SpA isn't strong and it doesn't get Dark Void. Or Tailwind, for that matter. The remaining two Arceus formes I have never seen before. Ice Arceus presumably has serious trouble with its lack of resistances and weakness to Stealth Rock, but Electric Arceus being completely extinct doesn't make sense.
Anyone with extensive experience with these four? What goes well with them, and why?
Shaymin-S - Haven't used it in awhile, but the subseed is the most effective in my opinion. It annoys stall teams and does a good job at forcing switchs. I guess it'd fit well on any team that likes to abuse entry hazards.
Thundurus - I tried Thunderus on the po server, tested it mostly in dw ubers but some wifi ubers. Taunt is great at shutting down deo-s / fortty / ferro / skarm etc. Priority t-wave is always annoying for slowing down scarfers and set-up sweepers. I think Thundurus can fit well on your standard drizzle team with kyogre/ferro or whatever. It's pretty good for offensive teams too [mewtwo, rayquaza, zekrom] as it has taunt to shut down hazards, and t-wave to slow down scarfers that could stop your sweep [most teams arent running a heal bealer so the paralysis is here to stay].
As for Ice Arceus/ Electric Arceus, I've never tried them. Nor have I seen many people use them, so can't say.
Thundurus - I tried Thunderus on the po server, tested it mostly in dw ubers but some wifi ubers. Taunt is great at shutting down deo-s / fortty / ferro / skarm etc. Priority t-wave is always annoying for slowing down scarfers and set-up sweepers. I think Thundurus can fit well on your standard drizzle team with kyogre/ferro or whatever. It's pretty good for offensive teams too [mewtwo, rayquaza, zekrom] as it has taunt to shut down hazards, and t-wave to slow down scarfers that could stop your sweep [most teams arent running a heal bealer so the paralysis is here to stay].
As for Ice Arceus/ Electric Arceus, I've never tried them. Nor have I seen many people use them, so can't say.
I've used all but Ice Arceus (lol who the fuck uses this extensively) extensively. Shaymin-S is an annoying bugger to face especially SubSeed variants if 2 layers of Toxic Spikes are down. Air Slash really has a 90% flinch rate and you will get Seeded and will have your HP drained thanks to T Spikes and Leech Seed. Being SR weak kinda sucks but it still manages to be a dick. Pretty the only thing which check it are bulky steel types like Steelceus and Dialga who can phaze it away and resist both its STABs. Scarf is too weak while Specs just doesnt cut it in terms of power with stuff like Kyogre roaming about imo.
Thundurus is quite weak in Ubers and the main draw of using it imo is the priority taunt and thunder wave.
Electric Arceus is really useful but its usually eclipsed by better Arceus formes like Extreme Killer or Ghostceus. It also has no way of checking Ferrothorn but its coverage is excellent and really should be used a bit more.
Electric Arceus doesn't have the resistances to be one of those Calm Mind Arceus forms that can recover off damage while getting to +3 or +4, but it can be quite a wallbreaker for Rain teams after a single Calm Mind.
I ran a set with max Special Attack and Calm Mind / Thunder / Ice Beam / Fire Blast. You don't have to worry too much about Groudon ruining Thunder since it's KOed over half the time by a +1 Ice Beam after Stealth Rock. Ferrothorn takes from 75-90% from a +1 Fire Blast in the rain, which gives the rest of your team that much more peace of mind to spam their Choiced Surfs and Water Spouts.
With Rain, which is so common you hardly even need your own Kyogre, STAB Thunder is about the best initial move any Arceus has. Off the top of my head, only STAB- and weather-boosted Judgments from Fire and Water Arceus pack more raw power, and Thunder's paralysis chance obviously comes in handy. With neutral Thunder doing more damage than super-effective Ice Beam, you could even experiment with Focus Blast or Grass Knot in either of the final two slots depending on your team's needs.
I ran a set with max Special Attack and Calm Mind / Thunder / Ice Beam / Fire Blast. You don't have to worry too much about Groudon ruining Thunder since it's KOed over half the time by a +1 Ice Beam after Stealth Rock. Ferrothorn takes from 75-90% from a +1 Fire Blast in the rain, which gives the rest of your team that much more peace of mind to spam their Choiced Surfs and Water Spouts.
With Rain, which is so common you hardly even need your own Kyogre, STAB Thunder is about the best initial move any Arceus has. Off the top of my head, only STAB- and weather-boosted Judgments from Fire and Water Arceus pack more raw power, and Thunder's paralysis chance obviously comes in handy. With neutral Thunder doing more damage than super-effective Ice Beam, you could even experiment with Focus Blast or Grass Knot in either of the final two slots depending on your team's needs.
What is the beef with Ice Arceus? If Electric Arceus can CM and sweep with boltbeam + Electric STAB, why can't Ice Arceus CM and sweep with boltbeam + Ice STAB? Sure there's less resistances to use, but Ice STAB is better than Electric STAB in the tier isn't it?
Also about Shaymin-S, won't you need to Substitute + Leech Seed before you can start using Air Slash? That's two turns of set up and not something you're likely to get. With only one turn, if you use Substitute you get no damage vs. steel types / levitating types / already statused types / RestTalkers, while if you use Leech Seed then if you don't get a flinch you lose Shaymin-S. Why not use Ironflinch Jirachi instead?
And looks like Thundurus is too weak to use, an unfortunate casualty of OU then.
Also about Shaymin-S, won't you need to Substitute + Leech Seed before you can start using Air Slash? That's two turns of set up and not something you're likely to get. With only one turn, if you use Substitute you get no damage vs. steel types / levitating types / already statused types / RestTalkers, while if you use Leech Seed then if you don't get a flinch you lose Shaymin-S. Why not use Ironflinch Jirachi instead?
And looks like Thundurus is too weak to use, an unfortunate casualty of OU then.
From my time using Ice Arceus, what I discovered to be the biggest "nails in the coffin" are:
1. Being weak to Stealth Rock. At least Flying Arceus gets a Ground-type immunity to help it come in.
2. Being weak to Steel. Every time I've tried to keep in Iceus on Steelceus its ended badly, and then Steelceus gets a free Calm Mind or chance to heal when you switch out. Running Earth Power on Iceus may help, but Arceus does not like giving up the moveslot.
3. Iceus's lack of resistances just make switching it in so difficult. With things like SpecsOgre and Dialga through around Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor, its hard for Iceus to safely come in on anything but an Ice Beam or something like Forretress. Electric Arceus can at least come in on Thunder, which is fairly commonplace.
If you can set up Iceus its probably good, but that can be said about just about any other Arceus-type.
1. Being weak to Stealth Rock. At least Flying Arceus gets a Ground-type immunity to help it come in.
2. Being weak to Steel. Every time I've tried to keep in Iceus on Steelceus its ended badly, and then Steelceus gets a free Calm Mind or chance to heal when you switch out. Running Earth Power on Iceus may help, but Arceus does not like giving up the moveslot.
3. Iceus's lack of resistances just make switching it in so difficult. With things like SpecsOgre and Dialga through around Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor, its hard for Iceus to safely come in on anything but an Ice Beam or something like Forretress. Electric Arceus can at least come in on Thunder, which is fairly commonplace.
If you can set up Iceus its probably good, but that can be said about just about any other Arceus-type.
ive actually tested iceus for a little bit when i was bored a while back. obviously its best uses are on a hail team and such, but i found it to be really effective at sub calm mind
one of the main arguements against using iceus in general is the fact that eleceus does everything iceus does but better. the issue is that eleceus cant run subcm because his stab has an actual immunity. eleceus would be completely walled by groundceus, garchomp, doryuuzu, and most importantly groudon. iceus on the other hand can run a mono attacker set without worry due to his stab having no immunities. the only real issue with subcm iceus is that there is no reason to use it over dragonceus who sports a better stab, better resistances, no stealth rock weakness, and can also run a dangerous sd set which makes it much harder to guess its set at first.
one of the main arguements against using iceus in general is the fact that eleceus does everything iceus does but better. the issue is that eleceus cant run subcm because his stab has an actual immunity. eleceus would be completely walled by groundceus, garchomp, doryuuzu, and most importantly groudon. iceus on the other hand can run a mono attacker set without worry due to his stab having no immunities. the only real issue with subcm iceus is that there is no reason to use it over dragonceus who sports a better stab, better resistances, no stealth rock weakness, and can also run a dangerous sd set which makes it much harder to guess its set at first.
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