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Gen 6 General XY Ubers Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter MMII
- Start date
While I'm not him, I think there's one interesting option. It's Nuzzle.
With Nuzzle you may for example cripple their Pokemon with paralysis (as long as it's not electric or ground type) and unlike T-Wave it's 100% Taunt proof because it's attacking move after all with 100% paralysis chance. While it sucks on electric rodents, as they pretty much all suck in higher tiers anyway, on Smeargle it may see some use even as last ditch effort to cripple opponent (especially if he relies on speed) for the rest of the match.
Untrue. There are plenty of ways to stop xerneas without god forbid ditto. Ho oh, Lugia, scizor being among the most common ones. Xerneas is never setting up for free unless you do something like choice lock yourself into a dragon move and if it's even slightly weakened then the likes of Zor can finish it off
-Manaphy-- My post wasn't just directed at you. :p
Anyways, Sticky Web Smeargle runs Spore, Sticky Web, Magic Coat, and Whirlwind. Obviously, this means you don't spore unless the opponent whips out their Defog user on Smeargle.
Also, I disagree with Xerneas being threatening before a boost. Sure, it can do ~something~, but it's really hard to apply pressure with an itemless Pokemon and still happen to have enough bulk setup later on.
Anyways, Sticky Web Smeargle runs Spore, Sticky Web, Magic Coat, and Whirlwind. Obviously, this means you don't spore unless the opponent whips out their Defog user on Smeargle.
Also, I disagree with Xerneas being threatening before a boost. Sure, it can do ~something~, but it's really hard to apply pressure with an itemless Pokemon and still happen to have enough bulk setup later on.
magic coat/spore/sticky web/whirlwind
I'm not liking the direction the ubers metagame is going. Almost every powerful team I've seen is starting to have this format:
1. Arceus Rock
2. Ho Oh
3. Groudon
4. Kyogre Counter
5. Xerneas Counter
6. Lugia
It's not even the centralization that bothers me either. Heck, there were essentially only five types of teams last generation:
1. Rain- Kyogre, Dialga, Ferrothorn, Giratina O, Arceus form, Filler
2. Sun- Groudon, Ho Oh, Forretress, Giratina/Palkia, Sun Abuser, Arceus Form
3. Sand- Tyranitar, Excadrill, Arceus Form, 3 anti meta pokemon
4. Shell Smash- Deoxys S, Dialga, Smeargle, Arceus Form and 2 other pokemon that can keep momentum
5. Stall- Chansey, Lugia, Arceus Form, Giratina, Choice Scarf User, Spinner (Scarf user was usually Kyogre, spinner was Tentacruel).
So the centralization isn't anything new. It's how slow the metagame is getting. Last gen, most matches for me lasted somewhere between 15-20 turns. Now? The average is 30-40, with upwards of 80-90. I really hope M Gengar can come save the day from the ridiculous lack of speed that is the ubers metagame now. Otherwise, I'll just play 3v3, because I think I can speak for some when I say I don't have the time to play battles that last for 30 minutes.
1. Arceus Rock
2. Ho Oh
3. Groudon
4. Kyogre Counter
5. Xerneas Counter
6. Lugia
It's not even the centralization that bothers me either. Heck, there were essentially only five types of teams last generation:
1. Rain- Kyogre, Dialga, Ferrothorn, Giratina O, Arceus form, Filler
2. Sun- Groudon, Ho Oh, Forretress, Giratina/Palkia, Sun Abuser, Arceus Form
3. Sand- Tyranitar, Excadrill, Arceus Form, 3 anti meta pokemon
4. Shell Smash- Deoxys S, Dialga, Smeargle, Arceus Form and 2 other pokemon that can keep momentum
5. Stall- Chansey, Lugia, Arceus Form, Giratina, Choice Scarf User, Spinner (Scarf user was usually Kyogre, spinner was Tentacruel).
So the centralization isn't anything new. It's how slow the metagame is getting. Last gen, most matches for me lasted somewhere between 15-20 turns. Now? The average is 30-40, with upwards of 80-90. I really hope M Gengar can come save the day from the ridiculous lack of speed that is the ubers metagame now. Otherwise, I'll just play 3v3, because I think I can speak for some when I say I don't have the time to play battles that last for 30 minutes.
Personally, I find it refreshing that gen6 battles last far longer, but that's just me. I was getting tired of the nature of HO in gen5, where if you fuck up 1 turn, then you lose the game.
I can agree with this to an extent. I think that it's true for ladder matches, where you have to be prepared for a wide range of pokemon. And, the templates that you provided is true for that, since all of these pokemon are powerful and versatile. However, I don't think you're exploring other alternative pokemon which are just as good as your listed pokemon.
Aegislash- Holy shit, how did you not include this monster in your list? Eliminate your opposing ground types, then you've got a beast of a wall that beats virtually all (relevant) Arceus variants, Xerneas, AND checks anything that does not have supereffective attack against it. Oh and, SD aegislash sucks. Use a support Aegislash, and it won't disappoint you.
Latios/Latias- Best Kyogre check with incredible support opinions. Defog and Roar are very viable on both of them (yes, Latios included!) They're just as good as they were in gen5, and in some ways, they're far more effective now. Since, stall is becoming increasingly more popular, you want their wall-breaking capability without reliance with Outrage. Really, if you thought Palika was a powerful wallbreaker, then you've seen nothing compared to Latios' nuclear powered DM and Psyshock. Also, the apparent lack of Genesects is a blessing for Lati@s. =)
Ygod- This thing is just absurdly powerful. You can run stall or offensive sets and it'll punish your opponent heavily if they don't take it out quickly as possible. Really, this thing is just SO powerful, especially coupled with Rockceus counter such as Waterceus. Foul play destroys Ho-oh. Taunt puts status-spreading antics to stop. Also, Ygod beats Aegi without head smash or rock slide.
There are many more threatening and powerful pokemon, just go and explore the meta a bit more. The typical balanced offense is not the sole archetype in current meta!
The metagame has slowed down considerably, but I find this better actually, since in Gen 5 Ubers there were way too many DM, Outrage spam which really restricted switching. Now in Gen 6, it more about bulky offense and balance and with the introduction of defog, means a lot of switching which is good since it foster predictions and especially mind-games.
Yes, I do agree that the presence of Xerneas affect the team archetypes. This is partly because in Gen 5 you needed a Kyogre and Ekiller counter. Now you need a Xerneas counter on top of those two.
Ok, so maybe I was a bit harsh on MMX but I still think MMY don't make much sense. MMY have irrelevant increase in speed since you have to run timid anyway for Darkrai, irrelevant SpA since still weaker than regular without life orb which is also minor for an offensive mon. You trade SDef for Def which is good and bad. On one hand you can set up more easily on the abundance of special attackers, but on the other hand, most priority moves are physical. You can no longer fall asleep which is alright I guess and you have a lol increase in Atk. Overall not worth it. Anyhow, mons such as MMY, Regular Mewtwo and Rayquaza are not that good imo and will see a decrease in usual this gen as people start to realize this epecially in a metagame where HO is looking to be not as popular of a playstyle as in gen 5.
Yes, I do agree that the presence of Xerneas affect the team archetypes. This is partly because in Gen 5 you needed a Kyogre and Ekiller counter. Now you need a Xerneas counter on top of those two.
Ok, so maybe I was a bit harsh on MMX but I still think MMY don't make much sense. MMY have irrelevant increase in speed since you have to run timid anyway for Darkrai, irrelevant SpA since still weaker than regular without life orb which is also minor for an offensive mon. You trade SDef for Def which is good and bad. On one hand you can set up more easily on the abundance of special attackers, but on the other hand, most priority moves are physical. You can no longer fall asleep which is alright I guess and you have a lol increase in Atk. Overall not worth it. Anyhow, mons such as MMY, Regular Mewtwo and Rayquaza are not that good imo and will see a decrease in usual this gen as people start to realize this epecially in a metagame where HO is looking to be not as popular of a playstyle as in gen 5.
eh, i agree with everything else you said but aegi doesnt really like taking a Will-o-Wisp while Arceus Ground shits on it :p And Support Arceus Ground is relevant as you showed yourself :D.
Also, Hyper Offense is still viable in this meta, just a little harder to pull off. Basically, HO follows this format (at least what I used)
Hazard Setter with taunt (deo s)
Darkrai (pressures Lugia an Arc forms)
Scarfer
3 set up mons
Metagame's slowing down, yes. There's nothing bad or good in that, there's just going to be people who like it and others who don't.
These team formulas I disagree with. There's a lot of innovation out there than what is being implied and a lot of these formulas are simply inefficient. (meaning they'll lead to mediocre teams or restrict your teambuilding significantly)
These team formulas I disagree with. There's a lot of innovation out there than what is being implied and a lot of these formulas are simply inefficient. (meaning they'll lead to mediocre teams or restrict your teambuilding significantly)
Stall is really fun to play with right now. Lugia can actually serve as a good wall now if you get support from Defog Arceus since they can't just sit and Spike-stack in your face anymore. Plus you've got new defensive threats in Xerneas and Yvetal. Pretty much the only difficult part of playing stall is that Mega-Gengar will absolutely wreck you, so a Pursuit user to get around it is kinda necessary
I've been using Hippowdon a little to counter the rising popularity of Ho-Oh, Groudon, Rockceus teams. Beats Ho Oh and Groudon like a pro, but ends up just having a stall war that it loses against Rockceus. I suspect Hippowdon to be a relatively viable anti meta threat this gen, especially in the hands of a creative/skilled teambuilder.
All three of those mons are OHKO'd by Scarf Kyogre's Surf. Doesn't seem like it would be difficult at all to pressure that core and crack whatever Kyogre check they stick into the remaining 3 slots. (especially when you factor in things like bullshit mega Gengar taking out quite a few Kyogre checks)
Choice Scarf Kyogre may be a "check" to the core, but I'm looking for a full stop counter. You are not going to want to switch in Scarf Kyogre on either one of those pokemon. It could get burned or judged by Rockceus, have to deal with bypassing a sub and thus taking brave bird damage from Ho Oh, or getting parahaxed or EQd by Groudon. Though none of the pokemon kill Kyogre, they render the most threatening thing (Water Spout) relatively useless, unless you have a wish Chansey or something of that nature. There are only a short list of things that can serve as "counters" to a fully powered Scarf Kyogre (Shedinja, Gastrodon, SpDef Giratina, Ludicolo, Chansey, Assault Vest/Bulk Up Dialga, and Palkia). If M Gengar has a set specifically designed to punch holes in specific spots on the opponents team, it will likely have destiny bond somewhere in it's moveslot. With that being said a pretty fair minority of pokemon can efficiently handle M Gengar+Scarf Kyogre (Shedinja, Giratina, Scarf Palkia). Shedinja and Giratina because they can just switch out from the shadow tag, and scarf Palkia because it can outspeed and OHKO M Gengar before it destiny bonds. But in the time that you are mega evolving, the opponent can either switch to something that can just stall your destiny bonds such as Ho Oh's sub roost combination.
I am really hesitating for my Kyogre counter between Palkia... and Palkia lol.
Assault Vest Palkia and Scarf Palkia to be precise.
I don't have any other Scarfer so I really appreciate Scarf Palkia in some dangerous situations. But Specs Kyogre is a huge threat for my team...
I think I'll stay on Assault Vest, as it have great offensive pressure, especially under rain.
Assault Vest Palkia and Scarf Palkia to be precise.
I don't have any other Scarfer so I really appreciate Scarf Palkia in some dangerous situations. But Specs Kyogre is a huge threat for my team...
I think I'll stay on Assault Vest, as it have great offensive pressure, especially under rain.
Kyogre doesn't even need to use Spout when all three of Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Arceus-Rock die to Surf. Yeah it won't want to switch in directly, but it can still come in on certain moves (SR from Groudon, SF from Ho-Oh, Recover or Defog from Arc-Rock).
There are actually very, very few Pokemon that can handle Taunt DBond Mega Gengar + Scarf Kyogre. Your options are basically Arceus-Water or Scarf Palkia, or by Pursuiting Gengar as it tries to Mega Evolve (just switching to Ho-Oh lets Gengar safely flee come in later). Shedinja isn't even worth mentioning because it sucks, and Giratina mostly just delays the problem unless it is SpD with Dragon Tail or something.
Lust Orb is still a great set although you'll want to use Hydro Pump more than ever so that you do 50% to 252 hp Arceus formes. (meaning they'll Recover and you'll maintain momentum) Donkey's Rest + 3 attacks may look odd but it's great in this slower, status heavy metagame thanks to the new sleep mechanics.
Otherwise, you can also try out Mega Abomasnow, who checks a lot better with Defog support and can punish more with the increased offenses. There's also AV Amoongus who can pivot on Kyogre easily but just make sure your team is capable of pressuring Choice Specs Kyogre so that you aren't taking full HP Water Spouts every time. (in any case, if your team can't do that AV Amoongus isn't the problem) Grass Arceus is still a good Kyogre check but it's disappointing to use an Arceus forme that loses to Palkia. (now that it has neutral weather to roast it with Fire Blast)
Based PO ladder is good.
Even if Shedinja can wall stuff like Kyogre and Xerneas, it's simply bait for support Arc and Ho-oh.
But in order to run either of those sets you are going to have to give up on Defog (which sucks cause support Arc is so good at it) or be extremely weak to Ho-Oh (free turns galore). Kyogre's rain only lasts 5 turns and Palkia can scare out more things than your Kyogre. (so it'll be inconsistent and difficult to control)
I think it's important to note that once zarel introduces pokebank as the main meta as opposed to the 6th gen DW ubers that it is now, the Latis become utter shit so it's important to not take the Latis current usage/viability into account when discussing how the meta will look like.
That's why you run a counter to Ho-Oh like... CARBINK
I'm very confused as to why Soul Dew is even still allowed in PokeBank..
It's essentially dreamworld ubers lol