• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

Gengar (Icy Wind Lead)

Veedrock said:
An intelligent opponent doesn't stop you from having full health and a Focus Sash (and possibly a Special Defense drop).

Special defense drop, You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel there.

The story doesn't stop after the suicide lead dies. You still have Focus Sash intact, and can do a lot more damage from there.

What? with what exactly? +speed nature shadow ball? No gengar is fairly weak considering they have 5 switch in's to choose from. That's why i said to use explosion.

Why in the world are you comparing this to Machamp and Metagross? Because it's not a Stealth Rock lead?

I'm saying metagross can do everything gengar can do better with SR and explosion, it's outclassed.

Machamp is an anti-lead, which is what this set is suppose to be. Machamp outclasses it and it can kill suicide leads before they get an attack in. In short, machamp can do everything this lead can do but better, therefor it is useless outside of suprise factor.

Very few leads are not screwed over by Trick, including Metagross and Machamp. And if they're switching out second turn...why don't you? Then you have a fast revenge killer and if nothing else Gengar can take an eye for an eye thanks to Destiny Bond.

Metagross can kill the tricker with explode for a draw. Or set up SR, switch out and outspeed everything with scarf and with explode for a revenge kill, metagross likes getting tricked a CS.
Without a ghost on your team machamp can still be a massive pain.

I will agree that you have way too many slashes. You need to narrow it down to what's most effective, not all possibilities. Extras can get mention in AC.

Basically the set would work well with 8 moves, too bad.
Click to expand...

Somebody Post some logs (good and bad) against people that aren't idiots and i'll believe it works. Just reliazed this loses to ninjask, smeargle, roserade and breloom. Machamp rapes it.

Gengar can take out many leads such as Azelf, Aerodactyl and Starmie with the combination of Icy Wind + Shadow Ball.

First two get SR up. Starmies Hydro pump leaves you with about 1 health, not exactly a win to be bragging about.

-Shadow Ball and Icy Wind are a must to take out faster leads.

Now we have only two slots to work with, huge problem.

-This set often takes out two pokemons, one through Icy Wind + Shadow Ball, and another one through Destiny Bond

Now we have 1 moveslot to work with, taunts now gone, Slower leads are free to SR up or just kill you. If it became popular destiny bond is easy to work around.
Destiny bond + no taunt = Insert dragon dancer sweeping over half your team ect.

-The third move depends if you want to take out Swampert leads, or Heatran leads. Protect can be used to scout for Scarfed or priority moves, allowing you to switch accordingly.

Protect...wow

-Modest nature should probably be used because Icy Wind lowers the opponent's speed, and power is therefore more important.

So it gets out speed by, most leads now and can't use destiny bond againt the switch in if you kill their lead.


Use Lum berry Machamp, seriously.

This lead is Piss weak, modest shadowball does 42.5% - 50.4% to attacking lead champ. LOL, gengar needs life orb to kill things. Can we end this thread yet? i'm starting to get mad people are defending this.
 
I can think of many things I'd prefer in a lead and really all this makes me think about is that Kecleon lead from ages ago.

It would kill shit but I don't see it giving any sort of momentum and you are going to seriously struggle to get more than 1 kill against a competent player.

I can't decide whether I think this deserves a set or not but I think the slashes should be more like:

Shadow Ball
Counter
Taunt
Destiny Bond

Timid


Yeah I got to the end of writing the above and was just about to add in slashes when I didn't feel the need to :/ I don't want a 70% accuracy move for my lead and actually have to rely on it at some point. Energy Ball is fairly useless as you can just Taunt -> Shadow Ball until you are about to die then Destiny Bond. I guess if this lead gets a good matchup you could POTENTIALLY rack up 3 kills but would likely get 2. This is based on suprise value mostly.

Something like....stupid person lets Lead Ape get 2hkoed to set up Rocks...Scizor comes in to Pursuit, gets Countered, dies...LO Tran comes in, Destiny Bond.

Honestly though, as soon as someone sees a Gengar lead, they should know that it is likely some sort of DB/Hypnosis/Counter gimmick. Against anyone good, the best this lead will do is leave the match equal at 5-5.

Icy Wind seems fairly useless and the only lead I'd consider it useful against is Azelf who isn't exactly hard to get rid of via Shadow Ball -> Switch to Scizor or just go to Scarftar orrr whatever else.

Taunt seems to be a necessity because otherwise this is just a shitty anti-lead that accomplishes nothing and Gengar is fast enough to not need priority. Shadow Ball also has excellent coverage on its own.
 
I've been testing this out more. Destiny Bond doesn't work with pretty much any leads now that I think about it.
Destiny Bond is quite predictable, maybe its because my CRE is in the 1400s range, and people expect it. I don't recommend Destiny Bond anymore after more testing.

I've made this Gengar to focus more on preventing Stealth Rock from all leads that are slower via Taunt, (including Infernape meaning I run Timid), and then try to do as much damage via my two attacks and Counter. Its not bad even if I get the score down to 5-5, where Gengar and the opposing lead dies because I've prevented Stealth Rock, and thats Gengar's main job.
 
how isn't killing starmie a win to brag about? if starmie is leading, gee fucking golly i think we just killed their rapid spinner. guaranteed 100% to not have my rocks spun away? i'd say that's a fucking win
 
Shouldn't Explosion along with a Hasty nature be mentioned somewhere? It's nice to be able to deal a nice chunk to incoming Offensive Cune or Gyarados without having to rely on Destiny Bond to take them down (not exactly the most reliable suicide move as both of them can easily stat up in your face as you D-bond them).
 
Nah, Icy Wind is not useless as you can beat Azelf leads with Psychic and live to potentially Destiny Bond another pokemon. Can I suggest Psychic be a minor minor option for those who really hate Machamp leads?
 
The big problem with Psychic is that's a 2HKO on Machamp, not an OHKO (unless crit). Let me show you the result of Gengar (with Psychic) v. Machamp.
Turn 1 :
Gengar uses Psychic, Machamp loses ~60% (i didn't make calcs but that's in this range)
Machamp uses Payback, Focus sash activates.
Turn 2 :
Machamp uses Bullet Punch, Gengar faints.
 
@ Aeroblactyl: Yeah. Taking out Starmie is a big merit of this set that I realised when using this set. Since Starmie is usually taken out on the first few turns, Stealth Rock can be kept on the field permanently on your opponents side once Gengar dies.

@ Mario Bro: Thanks man, I'll add that to other options.

@ min min and Edwin illan: I thought of Psychic but yeah, Counter pretty much covers Machamp, since not many see that coming. Psychic doesn't really help this Gengar, so I have to agree with Edwin illan that Psychic should not be used on this set.
 
eXeggutoraped said:
Somebody Post some logs (good and bad) against people that aren't idiots and i'll believe it works. Just reliazed this loses to ninjask, smeargle, roserade and breloom. Machamp rapes it.

Gengar can take out many leads such as Azelf, Aerodactyl and Starmie with the combination of Icy Wind + Shadow Ball.

First two get SR up. Starmies Hydro pump leaves you with about 1 health, not exactly a win to be bragging about.

-Shadow Ball and Icy Wind are a must to take out faster leads.

Now we have only two slots to work with, huge problem.

-This set often takes out two pokemons, one through Icy Wind + Shadow Ball, and another one through Destiny Bond

Now we have 1 moveslot to work with, taunts now gone, Slower leads are free to SR up or just kill you. If it became popular destiny bond is easy to work around.
Destiny bond + no taunt = Insert dragon dancer sweeping over half your team ect.

-The third move depends if you want to take out Swampert leads, or Heatran leads. Protect can be used to scout for Scarfed or priority moves, allowing you to switch accordingly.

Protect...wow

-Modest nature should probably be used because Icy Wind lowers the opponent's speed, and power is therefore more important.

So it gets out speed by, most leads now and can't use destiny bond againt the switch in if you kill their lead.


Use Lum berry Machamp, seriously.

This lead is Piss weak, modest shadowball does 42.5% - 50.4% to attacking lead champ. LOL, gengar needs life orb to kill things. Can we end this thread yet? i'm starting to get mad people are defending this.
Click to expand...

You're embarrassing yourself, Exxegutorape. =.="

First off, if Aero and Azelf set up Stealth Rock, they're down 5-6, facing a Gengar with a Focus Sash still intact, kinda like with Machamp. Aeroblacktyl covered why you're Starmie argument is out.
Second, a moveset of Shadow Ball/Counter/Taunt/Icy Wind beats all the leads it needs to (except Tran and Jirachi), there is no four move slot syndrome.
Third, Gengar > Machamp. Gengar easily Counters any move Machamp makes for a OHKO. Even if he uses Bullet Punch (which doesn't 2hko even with 0 def iv and a hindering nature), he'll be in KO range for Shadow Ball.

EDIT: Well, the KO with Shadow Ball isn't guaranteed but its still pretty likely. Interesting that Machamp may beat this lead with BP -> Payback and not the other way around.

Anyways, I'm not feeling Destiny Bond is on a lead like this, its incredibly predictable and can be stalled out of PP if need be. Either use T-bolt or Focus Blast if you really wanna beat Heatran/Gyarados.
Other than that, this is quite surprisingly a nice lead.

EDIT2: @ Denchura: Shadow Ball is a OHKO, you dunce. And don't even say that Starmie can switch out. They'll need just as much prediction as you do to win. =.= Also keep in mind that you have you're teammates too. Its not Gengar vs 6 pokes.
 
Yeah, whenever I use this Gengar, its always Taunt over Destiny Bond.
I've got Magnezone for back up against Jirachi and also for later in the game for Skarmory and Forretress.
Heatran beats this lead pretty much all the time, but Gengar can at least prevent SR on the field.
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
how isn't killing starmie a win to brag about? if starmie is leading, gee fucking golly i think we just killed their rapid spinner. guaranteed 100% to not have my rocks spun away? i'd say that's a fucking win
Click to expand...

Starmie can switch out after the icy wind and leave gengar with a nice hydro pump doing - 79.4% - 93.9%, while icy wind does 13% - 15.7%. EPIC WIN BRO!

Using a rapid spinner as a lead -> not going to be hagging around for long anyway.
Using gengar as a lead -> not designed for a stall team.

And you still don't have rocks up. And your spin blocker is about to die.

There is 0 pressure to switch out against this gengar, it loses to everything.

Have fun with your mono attacking lead that requires perfect prediction to beat anything.

EDIT: Well, the KO with Shadow Ball isn't guaranteed but its still pretty likely. Interesting that Machamp may beat this lead with BP -> Payback and not the other way around.

Machamp is a free switch on the counter
 
I really don't post here much. And i don't use the sets often. But i was bored, i tried out this set. It's good.

It takes things by surprise, has it's mid game uses if Sash is still intact or has good hp left. But it's pretty gimmicky and probably wouldn't work on the same person twice
 
Yeah, it doesn't work when you face the same guy twice. He'll know your moves but you still can Taunt the SR, and do some decent damage.
 
@OP: could you please post a row of consecutive logs with this Gengar set in action? I deeply doubt this set's effectiveness, so let's see what a few logs can tell us. And please, don't take too long to comply with this ;)
 
Just posting to say i think this set is terrible. Many of the options such as destony bond and counter rely on the ignorance of the opponent witch is never a good strategy. A smart machamp/metagross player will just bullet puAlso, you guys are forgetting that scarftar exists. He switches in on shadow ball, breaks your sash, and procedes to 1hko your ass. You need something to hit ttar IMO since he is a top 5 threat. As others have said, machamp and metagross COMPLETELY outclass this as anti leads but if this was to be salvaged i think it should look like this:

Gengar@ focus sash
Timid (you need the speed)
252spa 252spe 4hp
~shadow ball
~focus blast
~counter
~explosion

Witch goes against the point of the set and quite frankly is still terrible. Icy wind gengar is just too weak and easily walled. Hopefully your logs prove me wong.

ShinyAzelf said:
Yeah, it doesn't work when you face the same guy twice.
Click to expand...

Its not viable then buddy.
 
@ Setsuna Gathering the logs now.
@ boondocker Yeah, people are more wary of it afterwards. You still prevent Stealth Rock though against slower leads no matter what, and suicide leads still can't do anything other than bring Gengar down to its sash or get its Stealth Rock up.
 
I talked this over with Philip, and I have changed my mind since my last post in this topic. I think it's very interesting the fair amount of leads that this Gengar set can beat, plus the fact that thanks to Taunt, it can prevent an important number of opposing leads from laying down entry hazards. Philip and I think that the moveset should look like this: Shadow Ball | Icy Wind | Counter | Focus Blast / Taunt. Let's see what the rest of the team thinks, but I'll most likely stamp this set once the change in the moves is made.
 
Setsuna, I'm sorry about the logs. I have been sick for almost a week, and didn't feel like Shoddying at all. I'm well now, and if you still want the logs, I'll gather them.

I'll slash Focus Blast with Taunt. Thanks =)
 
Denchura said:
Starmie can switch out after the icy wind and leave gengar with a nice hydro pump doing - 79.4% - 93.9%, while icy wind does 13% - 15.7%. EPIC WIN BRO! lolwut? You Icy Wind the Starmie, then Shadow Ball for the KO

Using a rapid spinner as a lead -> not going to be hagging around for long anyway. If you're letting you're spinner die before it can spin anything, wts the point of spinning?
Using gengar as a lead -> not designed for a stall team. nor is azelf, machamp, aero, jirachi, etc.

And you still don't have rocks up. that comes later with a bulkier support poke, like Bronzong or Pert.And your spin blocker is about to die. can be used as fodder to scout later. and block a spin.

There is 0 pressure to switch out against this gengar, it loses to everything. no it doesn't...

Have fun with your mono attacking lead that requires perfect prediction to beat anything. thats one of the key points in pokemon, to predict properly.

EDIT: Well, the KO with Shadow Ball isn't guaranteed but its still pretty likely. Interesting that Machamp may beat this lead with BP -> Payback and not the other way around.

Machamp is a free switch on the counter
Click to expand...
 
QCstamp.png


Approved, 1/3
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top