Suspect Godly Gift Suspect Test #1: Kyogre and Zacian (Information + Voter Identification thread)

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dhelmise

banend doosre
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:ss/Kyogre: :ss/Zacian:​

After a community poll resulted in 51.5% of the voters voting "Yes" to suspect testing Kyogre, the Godly Gift council (me) has decided to suspect test Kyogre! Kyogre has been known as a sleeper threat ever since it was added into SwSh, and it was mostly overshadowed as a god due to how overcentralizing Zacian-Ctowned was. However, since Zacian-C's ban, Kyogre has quickly become a top threat due to its all-around decent stats on top of its ability to hold its own as an attacker, with its most popular set being Choice Scarf + Water Spout.

Zacian, on the other hand, was not voted on at all. However, it is arguably more broken than Zacian-C, as it essentially has the same role on teams with the added freedom of running a Choice Band. This is not a quickban purely because I forgot want to hear what the community has to say about this, despite it being broken at a glance.

Suspect details: During a Suspect, each player must climb the ladder until they've acquired the GXE necessary to participate in the voting. Primarily, everyone that participates needs to make an alt account following these guidelines:
  • Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown site and on a new account (creation date no earlier than today, April 14th) with "GGKZ [Nick]"--for example, I could create one called "GGKZ Kris" to ladder with.
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 25 games, and you must have a minimum GXE of 75.
  • Kyogre and Zacian will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect.
  • The suspect test will end on Sunday April 25th (11:59 pm GMT-4).
  • When posting proof of meeting reqs, feel free to use this thread as a means to civilly elucidate any topical opinions regarding whether or not Kyogre or Zacian should be banned (Optional).
  • It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership of the alt account as well. (Post a picture of your reqs with your smogon name featured)
As usual, the actual voting will take place in the Blind Voting Forum, so posting anything other than proof of reqs and discussion isn't necessary.
 
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Eeveepunter

Eeveepunter, posting proof of reqs.

I do think Kyogre is too much as it is right now. Rain is far and away the best weather archetype, easily fitting speed boosting abilities, powerful weather-boosted attacks, and both physical and special receivers in a single package on a variety of mons.

If rain wasn't quite so good, Kyogre would be easier to manage but as it is, it's too difficult to guess whether it's a cleaner or breaker without sacrificing your one or two mons that best deal with rain. I might be biased but I lost 5 games total and 3 to rain. No other mon gave me nearly as much trouble. I did run 3 water weak mons so take that for what you will.
https://pokepast.es/f48e385a3d7e746e

I barely saw Zacian on the ladder. On its face though it's basically Zacian-C with more freedom so maybe it's unhealthy. I do think it has great potential, I'm just not creative enough to foresee any truly broken sets/combinations.
 

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I ran hardstall which uh ... doesn't care about Kyogre or Zacian at all so it's hard to say how bad they are. I'll use some actual offense teams before the suspect ends and edit this with my thoughts once I come to an opinion on them. https://pokepast.es/9f2038f7fa9c9c76 here's the team I used if you want to play stall fsr.

Edit: As a lot of people have mentioned, zacian and kyogre are quite rare, but from what little I've seen of them they seem very powerful, but not broken. I will most likely be voting no ban on both.
 
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CatomicBomb

Hi
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I didn’t really run into either on the ladder during this. I ran into Zacian once and didn’t see Kyogre at all (also ran into Nidoking as a God once. Thankfully I won lol). Zacian on its own isn’t the worst unless you don’t bring any physical bulk. Zacian, however, is much more threatening when it starts giving out its stats for other team members. 138 Speed is blistering fast against most non-Scarf opponents. 130 Attack can be very much appreciated by quite a few physical attackers. 115/115 for Def/SpDef makes quite a few things harder to kill (Clefable and Tangrowth come to mind). Even 92 HP can be a boon for high defense/low health mons. Throwing Zacian in the SpAtk spot means it can make a significantly positive impact with (at least) almost all of its stats. Zacian being a fully functioning team mate is the icing on the cake.

Kyogre is interesting. Brings Rain and can give base 150 SpAtk and 140 SpDef. Kyogre’s other base stats give 100 to HP/Atk and 90 Def/Spe. Rain teams can make the stats work, but they tend to get cramped because either the sweepers have more than 100 Atk naturally or would rather have the 150 SpAtk. With Rain teams also carrying Pelipper, they’re forced to put in either the HP or SpDef slot since it already has base 100 Def, sacrificing some sort of potential bulk for most sweepers (Barraskewda doesn’t mind being in the Def slot). Again, Rain teams can make this work, but they sacrifice quite a bit of flexibility to do so. Kyogre is not too concerned about its team mate though. With Kyogre having said base 150 SpAtk, having access to STAB Water Spout, and setting its own Rain (which doubles the power of said STAB Water Spout), even the bulkiest of mons will feel pain. All it needs is a Choice Scarf to outspeed most of the metagame so even the fast glass cannons can’t damage it. Scarfers with more than 90 base Speed seem to do the best job of damaging Kyogre to make Water Spout less threatening, but that doesn’t stop Kyogre from switching out to unlock itself from Water Spout and coming back in later with either Origin Pulse or a coverage move (usually Thunder and Ice Beam/Blizzard). Hazards also chip away at Kyogre’s health and Water Spout power, so as long as those stay up it becomes easier to survive an attack and/or KO it. It’s hard to say if these points make it enough to ban at this time, seeing that it’s surprisingly not common at all. Thankfully there’s about ten days to see if that’s the case or not.

tl;dr Zacian ban; Kyogre maybe. Also here’s the team I used to ladder https://pokepast.es/20eb6a4b6f522dd6
 
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I think I came across one zacian and maybe two kyogres while laddering so kinda hard to gauge whether either is a problem.

I actually ended up building my own team for this, it's a really fun webs HO team so I'll drop it here for anyone who wants to try out! https://pokepast.es/5fb8c71862d1a76c

Edit: I forgot to put a nature on the pikachu (ty Rellia for pointing that out!) so remember to make that ada or jolly
 
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UT

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I have never found Kyogre to be super threatening. It's Special Attack and Special Defense are great obviously, but its other stats to donate are meh. As someone who mainly plays rain, I much prefer Kyurem-W as the God since it has better offensive stats and does not stack weaknesses with the rest of the team. Kyogre isn't a good rain setter either, as it really does not want to hold damp rock, has no switching move, and is vulnerable to all hazards. Pelipper (receiving HP or Special Defense) is a much better rainsetter. Overall I think Kyogre is dangerous on its own, but a meh God, so I plan to vote no ban

I have never used it myself, and only came across one on the ladder (and his team had no water resists, so that was a short battle anyway). In theory it is a great donor and pretty solid on its own, I could see the argument for it being overpowered. If I have time between now and voting, I plan to make a team with it and see what I think, but right now I would have to abstain for lack of knowledge of what it can do.
After playing around with it, I am likely going to vote ban on Zacian. It is such an amazing donor. Any team based around Zacian is going to have three amazing attackers between it, its attack recipient, and its speed recipient. Its 115 base defenses allow it to still build a solid defensive core as well. I had great success with using a pivoting regenerator core built around its defenses to pivot into the dangerous attackers it creates. The only real weakness is that it's mediocre HP and special attack mean that you will likely have one effectively unboosted mon, but with the great buffs it gives to everyone else that's hardly a weakness. Not to mention that 800+ attack play roughs are hard to switch into anyway...

If anyone wants to try out the team I used to ladder, it's below. It's a lot of fun, but you need to play sharp against someone who knows what they're doing and hope they don't have a Ditto. Against someone who doesn't know what they're doing, just get Mantine in under rain and laugh.
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Power Whip
- Knock Off
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave

Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Power Whip
- Poison Jab

Kyurem-White @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Freeze-Dry

Mantine @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Hurricane
- Hydro Pump
- Tailwind

Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Scald
- Roost
- Defog

Crawdaunt @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Knock Off
- Aqua Jet
- Superpower

Also shoutout to the guy who lost to me, then added a cloud nine Drampa into his Mewtwo's speed slot with thunderbolt and energy ball to try and counter me.

TL;DR: Ban Zacian, Do Not Ban Kyogre
 
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Palapapop

(First of all s/o Gmansour20 for the team :blobnom: :heart:)

Kyogre : Actually, he doesn't seem scary at all. Its stats are not that high (for comparison, Kyurem-W gives more Speed , more SpA , more HP and more Atk...) . As for Kyogre itself , a lot of players already play Eternatus on balance teams which walls Kyogre pretty well (and HOs are not affraid by Kyogre anyway). Thus, I don't see any good reasons to ban it , he's not that powerful in this metagame and so I will probably vote DNB for Kyogre.

Zacian : Zacian is way more threatning. It can give a really high Speed stat (412 which outspeeds Eternatus), its Def and Special Def are both great and so is its Attack stat. He's a pretty good donor but the stat it gives are not broken by any means. However, Zacian is really scary by itself. Indeed, with a Choice Band , Play Rough is an extremely threatning move and Wild Charge covers most Fairy resists like Ho-oh, Corviknight and Skarmory. Thus, it's an extremely strong Pokemon and at the same time a pretty good donor, which, in my opinion, deserves a BAN.
 
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