I've been playing some games via challenge since the ladder isnt up yet. So far Zacian-C is really good (as always) it pretty much can beat alot of teams without a pokemon faster than it or a quagsire, these are just my thoughts right now, they made change once ladder is up and more people are playing.
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Metagame Godly Gift
- Thread starter Chessking345
- Start date
Congrats for winning the vote, the concept is really cool. I tried it on the ladder and found this OM really interesting and fun.
I've done something like ten games yet and I found that Zacian-C seems to be a very popular god choice (face it like 8 or 9 times out of 10). Of course this can be explain by it's incredible stats even in Hero form combined with the fact that he is an extremely good pokemon on its own. He doesn't seems completely broken however as there is plenty of buffed defensive mons that counters him pretty well and others Gods like Eternatus or the Kyurems who give great stats too.
Regarding the "gifted" mons, there's three of them who seems to be a bit overpowered :
The first one is Pikachu having access to it's signature item which basically gives him a huge power boost. Combined with Zacian or Kyurem-Black base attack and his access to fake out + extreme speed he becomes a huge offensive threat being able to ohko a lot of offensive mons with espeed and to destroy almost all defensive walls that don't resist volt tackle.
The second one is Alolan-Marowak who also have access to an item giving him a huge power boost. You can either give him a huge attack stat to destroy almost any wall in the game or a huge speed stat to outspeed almost everything while doing incredible damages to offensive mons. Unlike Pikachu, Marowak has no priority but his combo of stabs with earthquake allow him to touch almost everything in the game. Given that, the attack boosted marowak has almost no switch-in while the speed boosted version can still us swords dance to become as threatening as the other one against defensive mons.
Last but not least we have Toxapex who is already on the watch list. Of course, you can run a choice band pex with 170 base attack to surprise your opponent but I'm not here to talk about this set. I rather point out the bulkier version receiving up to 140 base hp with his already amazing defenses. Indeed, this mon becomes even harder to break with a bulk allowing him to take even strong super effective moves like it's nothing. Even if some huge wallbreaker are still able to threaten him (like Brokenkachu), with the good teammates it becomes a nightmare to deal with this thing.
I've done something like ten games yet and I found that Zacian-C seems to be a very popular god choice (face it like 8 or 9 times out of 10). Of course this can be explain by it's incredible stats even in Hero form combined with the fact that he is an extremely good pokemon on its own. He doesn't seems completely broken however as there is plenty of buffed defensive mons that counters him pretty well and others Gods like Eternatus or the Kyurems who give great stats too.
Regarding the "gifted" mons, there's three of them who seems to be a bit overpowered :
The first one is Pikachu having access to it's signature item which basically gives him a huge power boost. Combined with Zacian or Kyurem-Black base attack and his access to fake out + extreme speed he becomes a huge offensive threat being able to ohko a lot of offensive mons with espeed and to destroy almost all defensive walls that don't resist volt tackle.
The second one is Alolan-Marowak who also have access to an item giving him a huge power boost. You can either give him a huge attack stat to destroy almost any wall in the game or a huge speed stat to outspeed almost everything while doing incredible damages to offensive mons. Unlike Pikachu, Marowak has no priority but his combo of stabs with earthquake allow him to touch almost everything in the game. Given that, the attack boosted marowak has almost no switch-in while the speed boosted version can still us swords dance to become as threatening as the other one against defensive mons.
Last but not least we have Toxapex who is already on the watch list. Of course, you can run a choice band pex with 170 base attack to surprise your opponent but I'm not here to talk about this set. I rather point out the bulkier version receiving up to 140 base hp with his already amazing defenses. Indeed, this mon becomes even harder to break with a bulk allowing him to take even strong super effective moves like it's nothing. Even if some huge wallbreaker are still able to threaten him (like Brokenkachu), with the good teammates it becomes a nightmare to deal with this thing.
IS FREAKING RIDICULOUSTake just 30% from a Buterfree +2 SpA and just like 45% from a Psycho Fang from a Zacian-C +1 Atk....
Don't need to be on the watch list, just need gone NOW. For the metagame healthy...
DeLiCiOuS 
With Dracovish being an uber he can't recieve anything but there is still this guy
I've been using this in the speed slot while putting Zacian as the giver
Arctovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Icicle Crash
- Psychic Fangs
- Body Slam
Basically you spam Fishious Rend like you always would, only now you have a mon in the top speed tier
I've been using this in the speed slot while putting Zacian as the giver
Arctovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Icicle Crash
- Psychic Fangs
- Body Slam
Basically you spam Fishious Rend like you always would, only now you have a mon in the top speed tier
So I don't know about you guys, but after 10-20 games, there are a couple of things that stood out to me.
1. Regenerator Tangrowth and Toxapex need to go (Toxapex at the very least).
These two combined in OU are annoying enough, but when you can fix their only flaws (Spdef for Tangrowth, HP for Toxapex), they become ridiculous. Toxapex normally only has 50 base hp. Yet, with that, it has a reputation for walling nearly everything from OU and down.
Now in Godly gift nearly every uber will effectively double this stat, some of them like Eternatus triple it. Tangrowth similarly has 50spdef, which means it also gets doubled from nearly every uber god. Even with the Zacian level attack stats, these two can wall nearly everything.
What makes this worthy of a ban, is that they pair really, really well. One of them would be fine. But they use separate stats, can be thrown on any team, cover each other's weaknesses and when combined can heal on anything that doesn't have coverage for both of them.
2. Ditto might need a ban
I don't know how you guys feel with this mon or the ability imposter in general. But in any meta with a hp boost or hyper offense, i get tired of it really quickly. It basically denies all set up and reduces the effectiveness of offense singlehandedly. I really hate outplaying an opponent and having better team preparation, but then being forced to avoid set up or getting kills with my best mons, because they'll just copy it and sweep me back. It always feels so cheap and reminds me of hackmons with eviolite, imposter chansey...
3. Might be worth looking into weather bans.
Just another ability that eventually gets banned in every OM. As much as i dislike ditto/toxapex/tangrowth, they do provide a kind of balance against hyper offense. I tried out swift swim, adamant, 170 base attack seismitoad, life orb... It was absolutely broken. Drain punch, liquidation, poison jab, earthquake, covers nearly every possible threat and outspeeds even scarf mons.... A ban on the weather extending rocks might be more fair.
4. Eviolite
It hasn't been a consistent thing, but it does lead to a few problems. Corsola and Porygon 2 are examples of pokemon that become dangerously bulky with a stat boost like hp and an eviolite.
Thank you for patching the Zacian crowned issue. That was way too over-centralising. I came to comment on it, so I'm really glad it was changed.
I just needed to voice those concerns, particularly the first 2. It feels a little repetitive so far. But now Zacian crowned is gone, maybe that'll change. I hope to see some more variation out there soon. Have fun guys
1. Regenerator Tangrowth and Toxapex need to go (Toxapex at the very least).
These two combined in OU are annoying enough, but when you can fix their only flaws (Spdef for Tangrowth, HP for Toxapex), they become ridiculous. Toxapex normally only has 50 base hp. Yet, with that, it has a reputation for walling nearly everything from OU and down.
Now in Godly gift nearly every uber will effectively double this stat, some of them like Eternatus triple it. Tangrowth similarly has 50spdef, which means it also gets doubled from nearly every uber god. Even with the Zacian level attack stats, these two can wall nearly everything.
What makes this worthy of a ban, is that they pair really, really well. One of them would be fine. But they use separate stats, can be thrown on any team, cover each other's weaknesses and when combined can heal on anything that doesn't have coverage for both of them.
2. Ditto might need a ban
I don't know how you guys feel with this mon or the ability imposter in general. But in any meta with a hp boost or hyper offense, i get tired of it really quickly. It basically denies all set up and reduces the effectiveness of offense singlehandedly. I really hate outplaying an opponent and having better team preparation, but then being forced to avoid set up or getting kills with my best mons, because they'll just copy it and sweep me back. It always feels so cheap and reminds me of hackmons with eviolite, imposter chansey...
3. Might be worth looking into weather bans.
Just another ability that eventually gets banned in every OM. As much as i dislike ditto/toxapex/tangrowth, they do provide a kind of balance against hyper offense. I tried out swift swim, adamant, 170 base attack seismitoad, life orb... It was absolutely broken. Drain punch, liquidation, poison jab, earthquake, covers nearly every possible threat and outspeeds even scarf mons.... A ban on the weather extending rocks might be more fair.
4. Eviolite
It hasn't been a consistent thing, but it does lead to a few problems. Corsola and Porygon 2 are examples of pokemon that become dangerously bulky with a stat boost like hp and an eviolite.
Thank you for patching the Zacian crowned issue. That was way too over-centralising. I came to comment on it, so I'm really glad it was changed.
I just needed to voice those concerns, particularly the first 2. It feels a little repetitive so far. But now Zacian crowned is gone, maybe that'll change. I hope to see some more variation out there soon. Have fun guys
For me imposter always feels lazy in hp boost metas and since there's nothing crazy mechanically in Godly Gift for set up sweepers, I don't think it should continue to be allowed so offense isn't unduly punished.
Toxapex is top tier but its type weaknesses are punished more heavily in this meta than in OU I think, esp with the popularity of rain and seismitoad.
One mon I don't see a lot of is dracozolt which is a shame. It's inconsistent for sure but with a speed donation, very hard to safely counter. Decent enough movepool to complement bolt beak makes it a good offensive counter to toxapex.
I saw some electric terrain shenanigans on the ladder and with some tweaking I think could be better than rain, alolan-Raichu's rising voltage is nothing short of nuclear in terrain.
Edit: I'd even go so far as to nominate alolan-raichu to the VR. It requires some support but any Pokemon that is both fast and can muscle through Chansey like this deserves at least a little consideration.
252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 331-390 (47 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
Toxapex is top tier but its type weaknesses are punished more heavily in this meta than in OU I think, esp with the popularity of rain and seismitoad.
One mon I don't see a lot of is dracozolt which is a shame. It's inconsistent for sure but with a speed donation, very hard to safely counter. Decent enough movepool to complement bolt beak makes it a good offensive counter to toxapex.
I saw some electric terrain shenanigans on the ladder and with some tweaking I think could be better than rain, alolan-Raichu's rising voltage is nothing short of nuclear in terrain.
Edit: I'd even go so far as to nominate alolan-raichu to the VR. It requires some support but any Pokemon that is both fast and can muscle through Chansey like this deserves at least a little consideration.
252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 331-390 (47 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
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YESSSSSSSSSSSS
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS
Zacian teams are not that bad, you still donate the decent Atk and Spe from non-Crowned while retaining the great bulk, but they are definitely a lot more manageable now.
C!Zamazenta though.... O_O this thing is gonna be crazy on bulkier teams
Very excited to try new mons out!
edit: wait both crowned forms are. um
ok maybe zamazenta wont be as good as i thought it'd be
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Yeah, the Attack and Speed stats are the base forme's 130 and 138. You can double-check with a stat calculator.
If you need the 170 Attack, there is still Kyurem-B to pass with, but the lower speed tier is a bit risky for some.
This is a team I threw together
It seems be working ok so far, it definitely isn't the best. It works a lot better against eternatus teams than zacian ones.
Ferrothorn mainly sets up hazards, knocks and uses seeds. Gyro ball does a bit of chip v some stuff, it mainly helps v Zacian.
Kyruem - W is mainly used against defensive mons, hence the modest. 99% of the time im clicking freeze dry or earth power. I might see if I can replace fusion flare as I havn't used it once.
Volcarona does volcarona things. Outspeeds everything at +1 even with a modest nature and psychic is there so it doesn't get walled by pex.
Pult is a decent wallbreaker, I'm thinking it should probably be switched to timid.
Drill keeps hazards away + acts as a last hope counter v Zacian if the sash is intact. It helps a decent amount v the unaware pokes.
Mag is the star of the team. I never thought trick would be so useful, but the amount of defensive threats that switch in is astonishing. It also survives most hits from full hp.
This isn't the best team or close to it, but threw it together and its been working ok and I've been having fun with it
It seems be working ok so far, it definitely isn't the best. It works a lot better against eternatus teams than zacian ones.
Ferrothorn mainly sets up hazards, knocks and uses seeds. Gyro ball does a bit of chip v some stuff, it mainly helps v Zacian.
Kyruem - W is mainly used against defensive mons, hence the modest. 99% of the time im clicking freeze dry or earth power. I might see if I can replace fusion flare as I havn't used it once.
Volcarona does volcarona things. Outspeeds everything at +1 even with a modest nature and psychic is there so it doesn't get walled by pex.
Pult is a decent wallbreaker, I'm thinking it should probably be switched to timid.
Drill keeps hazards away + acts as a last hope counter v Zacian if the sash is intact. It helps a decent amount v the unaware pokes.
Mag is the star of the team. I never thought trick would be so useful, but the amount of defensive threats that switch in is astonishing. It also survives most hits from full hp.
This isn't the best team or close to it, but threw it together and its been working ok and I've been having fun with it
I disagree with the people who have been saying that Toxapex is broken.
The HP boost is clearly a huge boon for it and it's a top tier, probably S rank Pokemon which must be taken into account when building. It's the best mixed wall and general catchall in the metagame.
But it's far from unbreakable.
First: I want to clarify something. It's impossible to boost Toxapex's bulk by more than 1.6x (1.59210526316...x :3). 140 base HP hits 484 raw HP while 50 base hits 304 raw. Still a significant boost, but not 'triple it', which is a very misleading way of looking at it.
Anyway:
There are a bunch of Pokemon capable of breaking your standard Toxapex. I'm going to go through some of them, but not all.
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 474-560 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 338-402 (69.8 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
As you can see: Swoobat is capable of beating Toxapex with or without the Grassy Seed boost (although it's easier with). This is 140 HP Toxapex, the highest you can go.
252+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 283-338 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 252-299 (52 - 61.7%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Toxtricity Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
First calc is Lunala SpA (boosted, but not insane) second two are its normal SpA. Pex has 140 HP Growth has 95 SpD (both from Eternatus). Pex just dies, Growth gets Regen outdone and Poisoned. It's capable of breaking the Pex/Growth core all by itself, with or without Throat Spray being used, although it can't 1v1 Tangrowth well and has to hit it coming in.
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 222-264 (45.8 - 54.5%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 265-312 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
There are a bunch of possible NDM sets. I'm not going into all of them here. If they have Photon Geyser they break Pex.
252 SpA Indeedee Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Psychic Terrain: 324-384 (66.9 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Standard Indeedee breaks Pex. Most Indeedee boost either SpA or Speed, so don't be surprised to take more.
252 Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 242-283 (50 - 58.4%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 221-263 (54.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This guy needs Speed. But breaks the mentioned core nicely, even without SD.
.
.
.
These options all require minimal support and are fairly flexible to fit on teams, although their viability is somewhat mixed. I didn't want to have options that only fit on specific archetype because then the easy call is 'but what if I'm not running x team'. But since this is Godly Gift let me point out: almost every god gives access to absurd wallbreakers (if you're using Shuckle as a god IDK what to tell you
). I've found you can use that to crack even the toughest walls with smart play and smart builds.
Also use Swoobat it's insane swiggity-
The HP boost is clearly a huge boon for it and it's a top tier, probably S rank Pokemon which must be taken into account when building. It's the best mixed wall and general catchall in the metagame.
But it's far from unbreakable.
First: I want to clarify something. It's impossible to boost Toxapex's bulk by more than 1.6x (1.59210526316...x :3). 140 base HP hits 484 raw HP while 50 base hits 304 raw. Still a significant boost, but not 'triple it', which is a very misleading way of looking at it.
Anyway:
There are a bunch of Pokemon capable of breaking your standard Toxapex. I'm going to go through some of them, but not all.
Code:
Swoobat @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Simple
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Heat Wave+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 338-402 (69.8 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
As you can see: Swoobat is capable of beating Toxapex with or without the Grassy Seed boost (although it's easier with). This is 140 HP Toxapex, the highest you can go.
Code:
Toxtricity @ Throat Spray
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overdrive
- Shift Gear
- Sludge Bomb
- Boomburst252+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 252-299 (52 - 61.7%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Toxtricity Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
First calc is Lunala SpA (boosted, but not insane) second two are its normal SpA. Pex has 140 HP Growth has 95 SpD (both from Eternatus). Pex just dies, Growth gets Regen outdone and Poisoned. It's capable of breaking the Pex/Growth core all by itself, with or without Throat Spray being used, although it can't 1v1 Tangrowth well and has to hit it coming in.
Code:
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Morning Sun252 Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 265-312 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
There are a bunch of possible NDM sets. I'm not going into all of them here. If they have Photon Geyser they break Pex.
Code:
Indeedee (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Expanding Force
- Hyper Voice
- Mystical Fire
- TrickStandard Indeedee breaks Pex. Most Indeedee boost either SpA or Speed, so don't be surprised to take more.
Code:
Rhyperior @ Life Orb / Choice Band / Weakness Policy
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Megahorn
- Swords Dance / Stealth Rock / Rock Polish252 Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 221-263 (54.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This guy needs Speed. But breaks the mentioned core nicely, even without SD.
.
.
.
These options all require minimal support and are fairly flexible to fit on teams, although their viability is somewhat mixed. I didn't want to have options that only fit on specific archetype because then the easy call is 'but what if I'm not running x team'. But since this is Godly Gift let me point out: almost every god gives access to absurd wallbreakers (if you're using Shuckle as a god IDK what to tell you
). I've found you can use that to crack even the toughest walls with smart play and smart builds.Also use Swoobat it's insane swiggity-
This is my Kyu-White team.
we firstly have shuckle, and that bulk is insane. 125-230-230 is amazing, and if there is someone trying to pp-stall, rest is your best option. (i was initially going to do an aguav-recycle shuckle, but i discovered it does not gets recycle)
we have talonflame, getting 120 atk, much better than 80. it can do revenge-killing with a priority and stab brave bird, and can use sub to sweep safely, and pivot with u-turn.
we now have kyurem-white, the god of the team! this is a life orb 3 attacks + roost set, pretty basic. the reason i chose it as a god is bcoz many players are running physical attacking gods, like kyu-b and zacian.
pult is here to kill pex, recieving a 170 spatk from kyu-w, specs, and tbolt. proof: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 292-344 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
ok, so we all know that tangrowth is a good def wall, and a horrendous special wall. by getting 100 spdef from the koorem, its special bulk improves. 100 is not excellent, but a huge advancement.
lastly we have a scarf crawdaunt. i put a scarf bcoz 95 speed isnt amazing. we have the basic set, with crabhammer, aqua jet, knock off, and switcheroo to yeet your scarf away
https://pokepast.es/eaac634bbb0ad965
electric terrain team:
toxapex is really just there to burn, poison, and tank hits. taking kyurem-b's 120 hp stat means it can tank almost anything, and if needed you can get rid of boosts with haze, but with proper play not much can set up against this team.
hawlucha is the lategame sweeper, once you get rid of any resists (unaware mons and bulky resists) it takes everything out with a base 170 atk. zen headbutt is there for toxapex, it 2hkos at +2. even without the unburden boost base 112 speed is pretty fast and outspeeds most mons that aren't gifted speed.
pincurchin sets up eterrain, and can set up spikes/tspikes against tangrowth/toxapex/whatever other tanks your opponent has.
raichu-alola nukes pretty much anything with stab rising voltage, grass knot is there for any ground types and psychic just for stab.
hippowdon stops any focus sash/weather shenanigans and sets up rocks pretty reliably, whirlwind is another safeguard for setup and can wear stuff down pretty fast with spikes up. earthquake 2hkos zacian-c, and with max defense + leftovers it barely survives two hits.
taking zacians attack:
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 123-145 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
kyurem-b is there just to get a ddance in and spam outrage, it can switch in against any hazard setters with boots to set up
electric terrain team:
toxapex is really just there to burn, poison, and tank hits. taking kyurem-b's 120 hp stat means it can tank almost anything, and if needed you can get rid of boosts with haze, but with proper play not much can set up against this team.
hawlucha is the lategame sweeper, once you get rid of any resists (unaware mons and bulky resists) it takes everything out with a base 170 atk. zen headbutt is there for toxapex, it 2hkos at +2. even without the unburden boost base 112 speed is pretty fast and outspeeds most mons that aren't gifted speed.
pincurchin sets up eterrain, and can set up spikes/tspikes against tangrowth/toxapex/whatever other tanks your opponent has.
raichu-alola nukes pretty much anything with stab rising voltage, grass knot is there for any ground types and psychic just for stab.
hippowdon stops any focus sash/weather shenanigans and sets up rocks pretty reliably, whirlwind is another safeguard for setup and can wear stuff down pretty fast with spikes up. earthquake 2hkos zacian-c, and with max defense + leftovers it barely survives two hits.
taking zacians attack:
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 123-145 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
kyurem-b is there just to get a ddance in and spam outrage, it can switch in against any hazard setters with boots to set up
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i agree with everything this guy said
After discussing this post with a couple users I want to add one important caveat to what I've said:I disagree with the people who have been saying that Toxapex is broken.
The HP boost is clearly a huge boon for it and it's a top tier, probably S rank Pokemon which must be taken into account when building. It's the best mixed wall and general catchall in the metagame.
But it's far from unbreakable.
First: I want to clarify something. It's impossible to boost Toxapex's bulk by more than 1.6x (1.59210526316...x :3). 140 base HP hits 484 raw HP while 50 base hits 304 raw. Still a significant boost, but not 'triple it', which is a very misleading way of looking at it.
Anyway:
There are a bunch of Pokemon capable of breaking your standard Toxapex. I'm going to go through some of them, but not all.
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 474-560 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKOCode:Swoobat @ Grassy Seed Ability: Simple EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Calm Mind - Roost - Stored Power - Heat Wave
+2 252 SpA Swoobat Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 338-402 (69.8 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
As you can see: Swoobat is capable of beating Toxapex with or without the Grassy Seed boost (although it's easier with). This is 140 HP Toxapex, the highest you can go.
252+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 283-338 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recoveryCode:Toxtricity @ Throat Spray Ability: Punk Rock EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Modest Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Overdrive - Shift Gear - Sludge Bomb - Boomburst
252+ SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 252-299 (52 - 61.7%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Toxtricity Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
First calc is Lunala SpA (boosted, but not insane) second two are its normal SpA. Pex has 140 HP Growth has 95 SpD (both from Eternatus). Pex just dies, Growth gets Regen outdone and Poisoned. It's capable of breaking the Pex/Growth core all by itself, with or without Throat Spray being used, although it can't 1v1 Tangrowth well and has to hit it coming in.
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 222-264 (45.8 - 54.5%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recoveryCode:Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Leftovers Ability: Prism Armor EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Adamant Nature - Photon Geyser - Dragon Dance - Earthquake - Morning Sun
252 Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 265-312 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
There are a bunch of possible NDM sets. I'm not going into all of them here. If they have Photon Geyser they break Pex.
252 SpA Indeedee Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Psychic Terrain: 324-384 (66.9 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recoveryCode:Indeedee (M) @ Choice Specs Ability: Psychic Surge EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Expanding Force - Hyper Voice - Mystical Fire - Trick
Standard Indeedee breaks Pex. Most Indeedee boost either SpA or Speed, so don't be surprised to take more.
252 Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 242-283 (50 - 58.4%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recoveryCode:Rhyperior @ Life Orb / Choice Band / Weakness Policy Ability: Solid Rock EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Jolly Nature / Adamant - Earthquake - Rock Slide - Megahorn - Swords Dance / Stealth Rock / Rock Polish
252 Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 221-263 (54.7 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This guy needs Speed. But breaks the mentioned core nicely, even without SD.
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These options all require minimal support and are fairly flexible to fit on teams, although their viability is somewhat mixed. I didn't want to have options that only fit on specific archetype because then the easy call is 'but what if I'm not running x team'. But since this is Godly Gift let me point out: almost every god gives access to absurd wallbreakers (if you're using Shuckle as a god IDK what to tell you
Also use Swoobat it's insane swiggity-
while I still do not believe Pex is broken, it is insanely restrictive to building and pretty clearly overcentralizing. The metagame should not revolve around breaking Pex. I should be able to bring a Pokemon that cannot break Pex without that being free recovery for Pex.
However
All Regenerator Pokemon (well... most) are pretty crazy here. They're mostly just overshadowed by Pex. I would strongly suggest considering a Regenerator ban rather than a Pex ban in this specific situation. Being able to donate huge defensive stats to Regenerator mons which already have one or two good bulk stats (Pex, Tangrowth, Slowthings, Amoonguss, even Eldegoss and Reuniclus) makes them very difficult to break reliably without centering your entire team around them, especially when used together.
After playing this meta for a little bit, I've noticed a few things.
Firstly, regenerator is outright busted. If you can't deal 20+ percent to pet (which a lot of mons can't cuz you know 140/150/150 bulk is sorta bulky), they switch out and recover HP. That's a problem, especially due to the prevalence of TSpikes in the meta. With a regenerator ban this mon wouldn't be the best but you know what; Pex is dummy strong and needs a nerf. Other mons include Tangrowth and Slowbro, both losing their spedef weakness, and Reiuniclus, who can now be considerably faster or more bulky, whichever you choose.
Second, Light Ball and Thick Club are actually broken. Pikachu has around 800 attack with fake out + extreme speed, making it overly broken as a revenge killer. Marowak has no switchins, outside of a perfectly played Toxapex.
Ditto isn't broken imo. It's good because everything else here is good; that's how he works. He's not overly good, but he can save you from getting swept by Pokemon like Dracozolt, Talonflame, Zacian, and a few others. He's good - A+ to S rank even - but healthy for the meta overall. He saves the meta from being HO vs Stallfest and I'm completely fine with that.
The donor that beats all other donors is Zacian. Should we look at a Zacian ban, though? I'd like to think not, but I've had to run many direct Zacian counters just to stand a chance. It seems like Zacian teams have crazy versatility, due to the fact that Zacian only has one Sub-par stat and the mon itself is amazing. Something to keep on the radar.
Firstly, regenerator is outright busted. If you can't deal 20+ percent to pet (which a lot of mons can't cuz you know 140/150/150 bulk is sorta bulky), they switch out and recover HP. That's a problem, especially due to the prevalence of TSpikes in the meta. With a regenerator ban this mon wouldn't be the best but you know what; Pex is dummy strong and needs a nerf. Other mons include Tangrowth and Slowbro, both losing their spedef weakness, and Reiuniclus, who can now be considerably faster or more bulky, whichever you choose.
Second, Light Ball and Thick Club are actually broken. Pikachu has around 800 attack with fake out + extreme speed, making it overly broken as a revenge killer. Marowak has no switchins, outside of a perfectly played Toxapex.
Ditto isn't broken imo. It's good because everything else here is good; that's how he works. He's not overly good, but he can save you from getting swept by Pokemon like Dracozolt, Talonflame, Zacian, and a few others. He's good - A+ to S rank even - but healthy for the meta overall. He saves the meta from being HO vs Stallfest and I'm completely fine with that.
The donor that beats all other donors is Zacian. Should we look at a Zacian ban, though? I'd like to think not, but I've had to run many direct Zacian counters just to stand a chance. It seems like Zacian teams have crazy versatility, due to the fact that Zacian only has one Sub-par stat and the mon itself is amazing. Something to keep on the radar.
no, pex ban
set so this does not becomes a one-liner:
inerithing hpShuckle @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Infestation
- Toxic
- Encore
- Rest
Reached Top 20 on the ladder and wanted to share my team and thoughts on the meta.
Godly Gift [Gen 8] Team
HP: Skarmory is mostly there to defog, and to completely shut down Zacian-C, Excadrill and the like, as well as ditto that copy my own ZC. It's amazingly bulky at +2, taking less than half from +5 ZC's Close Combat and shuttign it out. It does exactly what you'd expect, but it does it well.
ATT: Dracozolt with the extra Attack is nutty. OHKOes Eternatus-HP-gifted physical Pex if it stays in, as well as a boatload of things that aren't even weak to it. There are also a lot of Pincurchin running around right now which just boosts it to insane levels, OHKOing max-HP Lunala through Shadow Shield and the like. It's a great walbreaker, but the speed isn't great which can make it tricky if you can't force something out. Outrage also makes a decent last-ditch move for electric-immune mons, coming off the same attack stat as Garchomp.
DEF: Sub-roost Volcarona. Really nice way to punish physical attackers with flame body. As a bonus, it easily tanks speed-Conk's Facade and ohkoes it back with Psychic at +0. It can also deal with support / bulky Eternatus sets nicely. Finally, it shuts down Ferrothorn completely, which is important as the rest of my team struggles with it a lot.
SPA: Zacian-C. No comment needed. Jolly ran for maximum speed control. Psychic Fangs chosen over CC for low-health Pex and screen-breaking, as well as guaranteeing a kill on offensive Eternatus. Can be swapped with CC if Ferro becomes too much of an issue.
SPD: Hippowdown is crazy good in this slot. In fact, at full HP, this set is guaranteed to survive Timid Specs Kyurem-White's Ice Beam (99% max). Eats hits from all kinds of things while punishing mons like Dragapult, Lunala and Shuckle with Toxic. EQ is for chip, Slack Off for longevity.
SPE: Specs Magearna. Volt Switch for shenanigans and momentum, Tbolt for a good hit on Toxapex and fringe threats like Talonflame. Flash Cannon is spammable. Fleur Cannon is an absolute nuke once Pex is removed. Was running Modest for most of the time, but Timid is probably better.
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Toxapex needs to be removed, or Regenerator needs to be removed. I'd be happy with either one, but as it stands, Toxapex is just disgusting (and honestly Tangrowth isn't much better, although thankfully it is vulnerable to Toxic, unlike Pex) and is basically a free switch in on 90% of the entire metagame. Teams generally need at least 3 checks to it including 2 massive wallbreakers, and sometimes it still isn't enough. It's the most team-constraining mon in the meta, and honestly should have been banned along with Chansey and Blissey. At least those didn't have Regenerator or Scald.
There are some other mons that I would worry about being too much, but any of them completely pale in comparison to Regen Pex. I'll revisit my evaluation of other mons once something has been done.
Godly Gift [Gen 8] Team
HP: Skarmory is mostly there to defog, and to completely shut down Zacian-C, Excadrill and the like, as well as ditto that copy my own ZC. It's amazingly bulky at +2, taking less than half from +5 ZC's Close Combat and shuttign it out. It does exactly what you'd expect, but it does it well.
ATT: Dracozolt with the extra Attack is nutty. OHKOes Eternatus-HP-gifted physical Pex if it stays in, as well as a boatload of things that aren't even weak to it. There are also a lot of Pincurchin running around right now which just boosts it to insane levels, OHKOing max-HP Lunala through Shadow Shield and the like. It's a great walbreaker, but the speed isn't great which can make it tricky if you can't force something out. Outrage also makes a decent last-ditch move for electric-immune mons, coming off the same attack stat as Garchomp.
DEF: Sub-roost Volcarona. Really nice way to punish physical attackers with flame body. As a bonus, it easily tanks speed-Conk's Facade and ohkoes it back with Psychic at +0. It can also deal with support / bulky Eternatus sets nicely. Finally, it shuts down Ferrothorn completely, which is important as the rest of my team struggles with it a lot.
SPA: Zacian-C. No comment needed. Jolly ran for maximum speed control. Psychic Fangs chosen over CC for low-health Pex and screen-breaking, as well as guaranteeing a kill on offensive Eternatus. Can be swapped with CC if Ferro becomes too much of an issue.
SPD: Hippowdown is crazy good in this slot. In fact, at full HP, this set is guaranteed to survive Timid Specs Kyurem-White's Ice Beam (99% max). Eats hits from all kinds of things while punishing mons like Dragapult, Lunala and Shuckle with Toxic. EQ is for chip, Slack Off for longevity.
SPE: Specs Magearna. Volt Switch for shenanigans and momentum, Tbolt for a good hit on Toxapex and fringe threats like Talonflame. Flash Cannon is spammable. Fleur Cannon is an absolute nuke once Pex is removed. Was running Modest for most of the time, but Timid is probably better.
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Toxapex needs to be removed, or Regenerator needs to be removed. I'd be happy with either one, but as it stands, Toxapex is just disgusting (and honestly Tangrowth isn't much better, although thankfully it is vulnerable to Toxic, unlike Pex) and is basically a free switch in on 90% of the entire metagame. Teams generally need at least 3 checks to it including 2 massive wallbreakers, and sometimes it still isn't enough. It's the most team-constraining mon in the meta, and honestly should have been banned along with Chansey and Blissey. At least those didn't have Regenerator or Scald.
There are some other mons that I would worry about being too much, but any of them completely pale in comparison to Regen Pex. I'll revisit my evaluation of other mons once something has been done.
Mew @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4Def / 252 SpE
Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Imprison
- Transform
- Rest
Mew gets imprison this gen, so you should never lose to overwhelmingly bulky passive teams while this exists. Put it on speed or hp. Sure it points to the centralization on regen, but gotta adapt for the time being brooo
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4Def / 252 SpE
Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Imprison
- Transform
- Rest
Mew gets imprison this gen, so you should never lose to overwhelmingly bulky passive teams while this exists. Put it on speed or hp. Sure it points to the centralization on regen, but gotta adapt for the time being brooo
As mentioned in the OP, Zacian-C and Zamazenta-C will only donate the stats of their base forms, not their crowned forms.