click mons for paste
Some bitching before I get into the meat of things:
I'm not really a ladder player so this would be only the second time I've placed highly in a tier's ladder, with the first being a during the Roaring Moon suspect with this team reaching 1965 as NDUU Slumlord. Laddering requires a somewhat different skillset than the tournament environment and the name of the game is consistency more than anything else. There is too much variance to not do this. For example a person can be punished if they attempted to load a generic NatDex Blind Draft team on the ladder because it probably has a hole somewhere as its more meant for prep, similarly a person is punished harder for making risky calls in both the builder and in-game compared to a NatDex tournament environment. I don't think that is a bad thing for what it's worth but building for consistency is a quirk that I haven't really been able to perfectly master in regards to making a "good" ladder team so that is more a personal shortcoming than an issue with ladder itself. Although, the NatDex ladder is pretty strange and I'm appalled that a person can load a mon such as Bellibolt or Audino with relative success at like 1700s. Another thing I find heavily annoying, and I believe this applies to a lot of other ladders as well, is the relatively large differences in ELO when trying to find a game (e: a 1900s playing a <1600s player). Nothing one can really do about that matter, more just a symptom of not having a high population.
As I said in this post, I pretty much hate the current state of the tier. I think consistency is frankly not a thing unless building really bulky compositions like stall because there is just way too much to take into account offensively for a standard Bulky Offense or Balance to be "great". I think both Kingambit and Dragapult are active hindrances for the health of the tier because of the sheer utility and breaking power they can output. If the end goal is consistent teambuilding, these should be the focus for suspect tests because they ultimately harm more than they help (At the very least ban Dragapult if one thinks Kingambit is fine). Roaring Moon being freed is not helping this matter really and I think it should also be removed at some point. I don't really have much in terms of statistical evidence to prove that this tier is actually garbage or anything, this is more just vibes. I'm a NatDex main so I understand that things like high variance is par for the course but this is really daunting atm.
Damn, I gotta stink at this tier if I'm struggling in both the ladder and the metagame department. Worry not fans of Runo, for I've found something I am good at building: stall teams. It's a running joke that I like stalling in this metagame a lot, but it's not because I am just a stall chud (I mean I am a stall chud but this is irrelevant). It's more because this is the only thing I really know how to build efficiently at the moment. As I said before, I had reached a high placement with a Dragonite stall because it was able to compress a check to Ogerpon-W and adds a Cleric to the team for longevity purposes. It was an acceptable team but I eventually ditched it in attempt to figure out a comp that could solve the Calm Mind Tapu Lele and Swords Dance Ogerpon-W matchup in one comp. Fortunately I decided to not reinvent the wheel and practiced the strategy of using temporary stopgaps rather than hard walls for those two as a means of winning. It ultimately proved to be a good investment, allowing me to peak to top 3 on ladder in under a week.
I peaked as 'in my dungeon'
To explain how the team works I will explain the deviations this team has compared to more "typical" stalls in this tier rather than go into detail about why I chose each and every mon and move. As a reminder, this is the team: https://pokepast.es/ed67745e25e38792
Clefable
Deviations - Toxic instead of Wish / Calm Mind
Toxic Clefable isn't entirely a new idea new concept but typically one doesn't see it because Calm Mind and WishTect Variants are typically much better. This isn't the case for this team however, Clefable needs Toxic to act as a buffer against Swords Dance Ogerpon-W and as a backup response to Tapu Lele. Harder checks such as Amoonguss or Tangrowth are less feasible due to the holes they create regarding other matchups such as Mega Charizard X, Kommo-o, and Z-Garchomp.
Clodsire
Deviations - Poison Jab as an alternative to Toxic
While not an unheard of deviation, Poison Jab is something I tend to run because of how hostile threats such as Tapu Fini and Clefable can be to a stall team. The occasional Tangrowth or Serperior also can't just abuse it for free ins now. Sometimes I will go back to Toxic if there is an uptick in threats like Garchomp and Great Tusk and a down trend of Fini so I can force progress easier that way, but generally Poison Jab is more applicable.
Toxapex
Deviations - Payapa Berry instead of Heavy-Duty Boots / Rocky Helmet
Traditionally, Calm Mind Z Tapu Lele can maul stall teams with little effort as traditional checks such as Jirachi and Galarian Slowking are struggling significantly right now to the point of being borderline impossible to fit consistently on stall teams. Payapa Berry on Toxapex offers salvation against this dangerous stallbreaker, forcing a Tapu Lele player to play FAR more conservatively in order to avoid getting punished with Toxic and worn down in the early game.
Corviknight
Deviations - 120 investment in Speed EVs vs Max Defense EVs
This is what happens when I want Skarmory on a team but can't feasibly run the mon. Incredibly useful speed tier in order to punish would be stallbreakers such as Mega Mawile and Ursaluna. Kingambit players also have to be far more careful as they risk being outsped and taken advantage of with Body Press immediately.
Dondozo
Deviations - Not being on the team instead of being on the team
Recently my third eye opened, projecting the true cause of stall's inconsistency in the builder. Dondozo doesn't actually suck but I just didn't like having it on teams anymore because it meant I couldn't run checks to other threats like Ogerpon-Wellspring without having a major hole. Going Clefable over Dondozo and using Toxapex as the main water minimizes such holes while retaining fair matchups into threats like Roaring Moon and Zamazenta.
I will now explain a list of potential threats one that are common in the metagame and how the team interacts with them. I'm skipping a bunch because the pathways to win against those are super linear.
Not a particularly hard matchup, it's more the matter of understanding which set Dragapult is. Standard Pivot and Specs can be met with Chansey no problem. Dragon Dance has to be met with Clefable and nothing else. If shit really hits the fan then Clodsire and Toxapex act as potential stopgaps as they don't get overwhelmed as hard.
Corviknight is the go-to. If it somehow dies then Toxapex can win against Pursuit variants a large amount of the time but it needs to burn fish for Swords Dance variants. Seen a lot of these Kingambits used as a lead so Mega Sableye burning it turn one is also fine and it can live at least one strike from any of Kingambits move if it gets at +2 so that is another opportunity to turn the game around. If shit REALLY becomes bad then Clefable can work as long as it's not running Iron Head.
Corviknight and Mega Sableye troll this really hard. I've seen some Landorus get super entitled and stay in to U-Turn on lead Mega Sableye only to get burned via Prankster. Swords Dance Landorus can get dangerous if Sableye has already mega evolved but Corviknight stops it fine enough and Clefable should be a good backup as long as it's not a Flyinium Z variant. Toxapex can also live a hit from unboosted Earthquake to allow it to fish for a Scald Burn.
Every gameplan regarding Gholdengo revolves around making sure that Clodsire can safely enter the field to click Earthquake. I will often hard switch Toxapex in before making the play to Clodsire as it is the only one that can consistently live a hit while also popping its Air Balloon. Also allows me to scout against potential Trick Scarf Gholdengo or Z-Variants. I also like to hard switch Chansey in sometimes despite it being a deadweight in order to get an opportunity to setup Stealth Rocks. Psyshock Gholdengo is a near unwinnable matchup, nothing that can really be done there.
One can understand a lot about what variant of Gliscor it could be based off of the turn one interaction. Lead Gliscors are almost always going to click Protect for example. Gliscors that don't lead are probably Roost or Defog at the very least. The way to beat Gliscor is not really by wearing it down as that is a fools errand without a hard win condition. Rather the way to win revolves around shuffling Corviknight and Mega Sableye to waste its Earthquake and Spikes / Stealth Rock PP. A Gliscor knowing that they are too low PP on Earthquake will eventually stop clicking it, making Mega Sableye stronger as the game drags on. Ideally one would still want to Knock Off Gliscor's Toxic Orb on the off chance that they have a Cleric in the back but I wouldn't waste time on it if it's clear that they don't have one.
Clefable is the only real check to it and like maybeeeee Toxapex. All that matters is that one hits it with either Will-o-Wisp or Toxic. It's much too dangerous to play reactively against. I will often do risky stuff like staying in to Toxic as Chansey because bringing in Clefable at the wrong turn spells doom.
Payapa Pex and Clefable are what stops this from tearing up a team. It's still preferred to hard switch Chansey against Tapu Leles on the off-chance that it's a Choice variant. Also take advantage of Mega Sableye's Protect in order to scout its set.
Annoying as shit to play against because it enables a crap ton of breakers in the tier. Best course of action is to Knock Off its Heavy-Duty Boots and then start spamming as much status and hazards as possible. The more Wishes one can exhaust the easier it becomes to win the game. Their need to conserve Wish PP quickly becomes overshadowed by the need to keep anti-hazard utility such as Cinderace and Terapagos alive.
Not hard to beat in a vacuum but it becomes troubling if paired with something like Kingambit. Just have to use case by case play with Toxapex and Chansey, ideally going into Toxapex first to bait out a weaker move like Air Slash or Scorching Sands for because it's easy to lose PP off of eating several Weather Balls. If Chansey is trapped at some point then one has to just have to win the 50/50% or if it's high enough HP hard switch out. Losing the Eviolite isn't the end of the world, it's more important that Chansey stays above like the 50-75% HP threshold off memory.
Attack boosting Great Tusk is a nightmare that one has to constantly make rough predicts for. Easiest stop is catching it trying to Rapid Spin with Mega Sableye and having it accept a trade against to burn it. Clefable and Corviknight work as backups but they are needed for other things so the matchup gets harder if played poorly with Mega Sableye
Aggravating little shit if it runs Psyshock, in which one tries to safely position Clefable in order to win. Otherwise Toxapex and Clodsire sit on most variants of this give or take. Swords Dance try to focus on Toxapex more because of Ice Punch. Calm Mind go to Clodsire because of Thunderbolt.
Just bait out the Z-Move if it's Calm Mind, not threatening to the team afterwards. Volt Switch sets one has to be more careful around as it can bring in Kingambit and cause problems long term.
Burn it as soon as possible. The longer this remains healthy the more annoying it is for a stall team to deal with.
One wants to lead Mega Sableye regardless because Mega Diancie commonly partners up with some annoying physical breakers. Hard switching to Toxapex is the next best step here so one can wear it down for Chansey or Clodsire. SubRocksEndeavor variants have a similar flowchart except when it gets down to 26%. The most optimal play is staying in to finish it off with Scald while taking the Endeavor. If there is a trapper in the back then it's more preferable to hard switch to Corviknight as it clicks Substitute since it can just Roost on the Endeavor and win the interaction. Although, smarter Mega Diancie players can give themselves an advantage if they choose to just hard endeavor on 26% percent or alternatively just spam Moonblast to force Corviknight into a riskier position.
Clodsire has to play a 1v1 at some point to stop Heatran from taking a mon. Mega Sableye is bulky enough to PP stall some of the Magma Storms away, making it easier to deal with in the long term.
Same gameplan as Samurott-H.
Sableye has to successfully land a Knock Off against it or it will be annoying long term.
Kinda need to throw the entire book at this guy as it has to basically come down to wearing down all of Tornadus's teammates instead of the mon itself but typically Clodsire is a generic enough check if one doesn't care about losing Heavy-Duty Boots. Not ideal if Tornadus partners with Gholdengo however.
Hard Matchups
- Psyshock Gholdengo wins on the spot bar choke.
- Just really annoying with the set variance and the fact that it can just eat Clodsire Poison Jabs fairly well for some reason. Not impossible to win tho. + - Regen cores, particularly ones centered around Alomomola prolong the game to an obscene level and makes it easy to lose on hax or a choke.
- This never actually happened to me but I've played vs it enough to know that Swords Dance can just brute force the team.
+ - One of the scariest Choice Band wallbreakers partnering with one of the scariest special wallbreakers
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2300811342-ktig53gcrnldj0tbr74319unn8t8o12pw?p2
- Doesn't exist but there aren't enough outs to win against Manaphy Rain.Some replays I saved in no particular order, please excuse the potty mouth for some of the games it's not personal #crashouts:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldex-819713?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2304803138-0isthasgaqyry4225vyj0qdqoql6edxpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2304489384-j4rgqx871kcoxwj9698eqh87ol0xh5tpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2302215557-m0xv5v678ckw76al28kfy94lacmnoi6pw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2302188940-dhydc7tc7qttwmo5dqhsbskno7bxrixpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2304736643-qynufad3qil3iwe4euyusfatfkh1o2npw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2304861443-3rvm4658ryybx3qmi2obu651jn4t7q5pw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2304856977-r2o2qnb7v7n3u1xcolqwmnx5m1j0smbpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2304852909-cakt7dbbnhx48vqdu4j9l4y08htjyn7pw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2304830607-aqc3fije615bhm3p8c3cqivowncmtd5pw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2304825810-jfftn8dn3ygbrmkrb1xyjev6q7p8r9lpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2305233321-i8g3pucjr7dipy288wnv40kl3hvkvyhpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2305195264-puxymjk30ns2s217jfxf9oyydhyn5hrpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-2305246598-rrdqrtsihrblacdj4h6m1jxgfk43spspw?p2
I'm gonna stop with the NDOU stuff for right now. My home, National Dex UU and RU need me more. Been trying to keep it chill by minimizing the amount of tours I signup for. I think I have just SolomodPL and the upcoming ISTT to do but outside of that I'm just gonna rest up before the burn out becomes detrimental. Thank you to SapoDaG30 for suggesting to add Heal Bell on Clefable when my stupid ass was using Cosmic Power. thebestever543 sorry bro I'm not going to 2000s man this ladder is DOGSHIT. I'll retry next gen. Thanks for the insight on how the ladder works though.
Everyone else have a free ping:
sealoo hidin R8 Kinzo hidin veti Danbear02 seth omarsgarciav Sulo Boomenheimer Adriyun Velcroc Sputnik about15gals Ineros ARTYMASION Oculars Sami Zrp200 bumboclaat Xurkiyee Dahness db Scarfire Flames Of Elixir pannu jawabarat Dorron Murphy Lawden Wildfiree Iride Bobsican adem FayaWizard Elvira TheShowdownHoedown Dead by Daylight
ok gn
