Golduck (Update)

Honko

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Finally doing a Pokemon that could conceivably be useful on an actual UU team! Golduck so sexy. Not too much to change, the on-site sets are pretty solid.

golduck_beam.jpg


http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/golduck

[Overview]

<p>Like many first generation Pokemon, Golduck is blessed with a cool design and a generous movepool, but is held back by a lackluster stat distribution. Golduck's base 95 Special Attack is good, but not great, and the rest of its stats are decidedly average, making it difficult for Golduck to compete with its more specialized rivals. Luckily, Golduck does have a couple of niches in UU that help differentiate it from other Water-types. Cloud Nine is an exclusive ability that turns Golduck into a unique counter to devastating Swift Swim and Chlorophyll sweepers, while Calm Mind makes Golduck one of the few UU Water-types capable of sweeping through boosting its Special Attack. Although it's not the most threatening Pokemon around, Golduck can fill an important role without requiring much support, making it a solid choice for a variety of offensive teams.</p>

[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 3: Ice Beam / Psychic
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Encore
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Cloud Nine
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Golduck is perhaps the only UU Water-type that can effectively boost its own Special Attack and sweep. While Slowbro and Slowking can also set up with Calm Mind or Nasty Plot, their extremely low Speed makes it easy for opponents to halt an attempted sweep with Toxic or Haze. Golduck, on the other hand, is fast enough to outspeed the defensive Pokemon that commonly carry such moves and can often 2HKO them after a boost, making it a much harder sweeper to stop. Hydro Pump is Golduck's most powerful STAB attack, dealing heavy damage to any Pokemon that doesn't resist it. After a single boost, even sturdy Pokemon such as Spiritomb and Hariyama can be OHKOed, while Clefable and Uxie are hit for guaranteed 2HKOs. Ice Beam takes care of Grass-types as well as Altaria, while Hidden Power Grass covers Golduck's fellow Water-types. With good prediction, Golduck can 2HKO Milotic with a boosted Hidden Power Grass and avoid being stifled by Toxic or Haze. Alternatively, Golduck can use Encore in the last slot to gain free turns. While this makes setting up much easier, it comes at the cost of a coverage move. If you choose to use Encore, Psychic is a good option over Ice Beam, as it has better two-move coverage alongside Hydro Pump. The only common UU Pokemon that resist both Water and Psychic are Slowbro and Exeggutor. Unfortunately, the loss of super effective coverage makes it significantly easier for the opponent to wall Golduck with bulky Water resistors.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>While Golduck has decent Speed and passable bulk, it is still vulnerable to faster physical attackers. Despite being unable to safely switch in on an attack, Leafeon, Sceptile, and Hitmonlee can all come in while Golduck sets up, and will outspeed and OHKO Golduck with their STAB moves. Because of this, it is usually better to simply fire off unboosted attacks during the early-game and save Calm Mind for later in the match when you have scouted most of your opponent's team. Life Orb is the recommended item thanks to the consistent power boost it brings. Without it, Golduck will often require more than one boost to be able to KO defensive Pokemon. However, Leftovers can be used if you wish to play Golduck more conservatively, especially in tandem with Encore. This will help keep Golduck healthy early on and may give it the opportunity to accumulate multiple boosts when it's ready to sweep. Hydro Pump is usually recommended due to the key KOs that it achieves, but Surf has more PP and better accuracy, and is worth considering for its reliability if you choose to use Leftovers.</p>

<p>Golduck's Cloud Nine ability makes it an excellent counter to most Swift Swim and Chlorophyll sweepers. With their weather boosts nullified, Golduck can outspeed and OHKO Pokemon such as Kabutops and Tangrowth that might otherwise do serious damage to your team. Max Speed and a Timid nature are required to outspeed or tie the most common weather abusers along with the all-important base 80 Speed group. Special Attack is then maximized to cause as much damage as possible, while the final 4 EVs are placed in HP. You can instead put those 4 EVs into one of Golduck's defenses and use an HP IV of 29 to minimize damage from Life Orb recoil, although this will also slightly reduce the power of Hidden Power Grass.</p>

<p>Entry hazard support is always helpful for an offensive Pokemon, and Golduck is no exception. After a single boost, Golduck gets a guaranteed OHKO on Spiritomb and specially-defensive Weezing and has a decent chance to 2HKO Registeel with Hydro Pump if Stealth Rock is in play. Hazards become even more important when running Encore to punish the switches that it causes while making up for the loss of super effective coverage. With Encore, Golduck can even come out on top against Chansey if Stealth Rock is up, as +1 Hydro Pump will be a guaranteed 3HKO, forcing Chansey to use a recovery move immediately after switching in. Golduck can then Encore the recovery move to force Chansey out and grab another boost. Registeel is a good choice to set up Stealth Rock due to its excellent defensive capabilities and decent synergy with Golduck.</p>

<p>This set's counters depend on which moves Golduck is running. With three attacks, the only Pokemon that can safely switch in after a boost is Chansey. In this case, the best teammates for Golduck are mixed attackers or Choiced special attackers with Trick that can cripple Chansey. Blaziken and Rotom are both fine choices for this job. On the other hand, if Golduck is limited to a single coverage move, it will have more trouble breaking through bulky Water- and Grass-types that are not weak to Psychic. This makes Venusaur the best possible teammate, as it can come in on either of Golduck's weaknesses and use its powerful STAB Grass- and Poison-type attacks to destroy the Pokemon that wall Golduck.</p>

[SET]
name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Psychic / Cross Chop
item: Life Orb / Choice Specs
ability: Cloud Nine
nature: Timid / Mild
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set takes full advantage of Golduck's excellent coverage in order to pose an immediate threat to a variety of Pokemon. With Cloud Nine, Golduck is especially effective at countering Pokemon that rely on the weather to boost their Speed and power. Fire-type Sunny Day abusers lose their instant SolarBeam and are swiftly KOed by Golduck's STAB Hydro Pump. Chlorophyll sweepers are easily outsped once their Speed boost is nullified and can be defeated with Ice Beam. Hidden Power Grass takes care of some of the most common Swift Swimmers, while Psychic rounds out the coverage by hitting Qwilfish and Toxicroak hard.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The given EVs are standard for a special attacker. A Timid nature is required to outspeed the crucial base 80 Speed group and tie with other base 85s, such as Qwilfish and Toxicroak. Life Orb is the recommended item since it provides a solid boost to Golduck's attacks without limiting its flexibility, but Choice Specs provide a bigger boost and can be used if you plan to play Golduck as a hit-and-run Pokemon. Either way, Golduck will be completely walled by Chansey, so Cross Chop is an option in the fourth moveslot to get past it. With a Life Orb, Mild nature, and EV spread of 120 Atk / 252 SpA / 136 Spe, Golduck can always 2HKO Chansey while still outspeeding neutral-natured base 70s. However, Cross Chop has little value outside of hitting Chansey, and the drop in Speed makes Golduck lose to many key Pokemon that it could have otherwise beat, so using such a spread is only recommended if Chansey poses a huge problem for your team. Once again, using 29 HP IVs to drop Golduck's HP to 299 is an option as it will minimize Life Orb recoil at the cost of a tiny reduction in Hidden Power Grass's power.</p>

<p>While this set's great coverage allows Golduck to get past most Pokemon easily, it has trouble beating Pokemon that can take a hit or two. Entry hazards make life much easier for Golduck, softening up bulkier Pokemon and punishing weakened sweepers as they switch out. Most of Golduck's counters are grounded, so Spikes support would be ideal; unfortunately, most of the best UU Spikers are Water-types that don't work very well on the same team as Golduck. Cacturne is an exception, and has good defensive synergy with Golduck; unfortunately, neither Cacturne nor Golduck are very adept at taking Fighting-type attacks. Stealth Rock can be set up by a much wider variety of teammates, including reliable tanks such as Registeel and Uxie, and is therefore likely to be your best bet. Even with entry hazards up, this set is walled by most bulky Water-types. As such, Venusaur makes a great teammate thanks to its ability to consistently beat the most popular Water-types in UU.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Golduck is surprisingly self-sufficient, often beating its own counters if it carries the right moves. However, using certain teammates will help make its life even easier. Bulky Water-types, such as Milotic, can halt Golduck's sweep with good prediction, so Pokemon that can consistently bring them down are recommended. Venusaur is the most reliable choice thanks to its power and versatility. Speedy Grass- and Fighting-types can come in on a predicted set-up move or after a KO and force Golduck out, so a Flying-type partner, such as Moltres or Swellow, can be useful to get rid of them. Bulky Ground- or Steel-types complement Golduck well defensively and can shut down the physical attackers that threaten it most. Registeel resists Grass, can paralyze revenge killers with Thunder Wave, and often attracts Fire-types that Golduck can set up on. Rhyperior is immune to any Electric attacks aimed at Golduck, while Golduck resists the Water- and Ice-type moves that Rhyperior fears. Steelix can lure in Milotic or Slowbro and use Explosion to immediately remove them from the match. All three of these Pokemon can also set up Stealth Rock, which enables Golduck to get some additional KOs. Finally, Wish support from Chansey or Clefable will keep Golduck healthy so that it can fire off attacks throughout the match.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Golduck can use Encore with three attacks to fill a specific supporting role as a counter to weather sweepers and stat boosters. Even without any boosts to its Special Attack, Golduck can still outspeed and OHKO or 2HKO most weather sweepers with Surf, Ice Beam, or Hidden Power Grass, while Encore forces switches and prevents opponents from setting up. However, Golduck can make much better use of the free turns granted by Encore if it has Calm Mind, so it's usually best to stick to that. Golduck can also use a defensive Calm Mind set with Rest and Sleep Talk or a Chesto Berry, but physical attackers can still easily revenge kill Golduck, so such sets would have to be saved until very late in the match.</p>

<p>Aqua Jet is a STAB priority move, which is always a helpful asset in UU, but Golduck can't really spare a moveslot for it and lacks the physical power to use it effectively without heavy investment in Attack. Golduck has a nice physical movepool, including Waterfall, Aqua Tail, Ice Punch, Low Kick, Zen Headbutt, Shadow Claw, and Return, so a fully physical set could be used; however, with mediocre Attack and the unreliable Screech and Psych Up as the only options for boosting the power of its moves, it won't be very effective.</p>

<p>Signal Beam can surprise Ludicolo and hit Exeggutor, Shiftry, and Slowbro harder than Golduck's other moves, but any other potential targets take more damage from Hydro Pump or Ice Beam. Focus Blast can be used to nail special walls such as Registeel and Clefable harder than Hydro Pump would, but Golduck can often beat them after a boost anyway, so it's usually not worth risking the shaky accuracy. Golduck has access to several support moves besides Encore, including Light Screen, Hypnosis, Yawn, Toxic, Confuse Ray, and Whirlpool, but if you want a support-oriented bulky Water-type, there are many better options available.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Golduck's counters depend heavily on what moves it is running. Chansey can usually come in on any set and stall Golduck out easily, but if Golduck happens to have Cross Chop or Encore, it will force Chansey right back out. Unless Golduck has multiple Calm Mind boosts under its belt, Registeel can switch in and paralyze Golduck, neutralizing it as an offensive threat, but will often take heavy damage in the process. Ludicolo cannot switch into a boosted Ice Beam or Psychic, but shrugs off Golduck's other moves and can OHKO back with Seed Bomb. If Golduck lacks Psychic, Toxicroak can usually force Golduck out with powerful physical attacks, although a boosted Ice Beam will hurt. Without Calm Mind, Golduck will be unable to break through Milotic and other bulky Water-types. Golduck's Defense and Speed stats aren't particularly impressive, so speedy physical attackers such as Leafeon, Scyther, and Primeape can all revenge kill it easily.</p>
 
Wait, it gets Calm Mind?

You may want to mention that +1 Hydro Pump always KOs 252 hp tomb and Spd Weezing with Stealth Rock. And mention a stealth rocker like Registeel in AC.
 
i'd change weather counter to

[SET]
name: Encore Calm Mind
move 1: Encore
move 2: Surf
move 3: Calm Mind
move 4: Ice Beam / Psychic / Hidden Power Grass
item: Leftovers
ability: Cloud Nine
nature: Timid
evs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe

golduck is just screaming for an encore + calm mind set, and this provides. surf hits kabutops and omastar really hard, and golduck can calm mind on omastar and likely sweep once rotom is dead, so it still checks rain dance really well. it has slashitis for the coverage move. i'd probably make psychic the first slash, since it can beat milotic with encore AND does the same to venusaur as ice beam. and it can fuck up ludicolo and ohko toxicroak. seems like a better option.

give me your thoughts on this. if you agree, i'll stamp it, but if you don't we can sort out what you think is wrong and then i'll give it a stamp!
 
Surf/Psychic is decent two-move coverage, but I've had more success with the weather counter than any other Golduck set. I mostly play NU so I can't really vouch for it in UU, but it's just a great solid team member with Encore and great coverage that shifts momentum in my favor, even against non-weather teams. I'd prefer to add Encore as a slash on the CM set (and Psychic with it) or make Encore+CM a new set entirely.

I suppose I should test these in UU, but I hate hate hate hate Milotic and Venusaur all over the place :/
 
I'm aware of that. I'm just saying I've had more success with Encore Weather Counter than any other set. But since my experience is mostly in NU and I know that's not the metagame these are written for, if you or someone else have tested it in UU and found it ineffective then I can accept that. Otherwise I'd prefer to keep it up, rather than replacing it with another set that plays very differently.

Edit: Also that set was uploaded relatively recently (~8 months ago) which suggests it has some merit and isn't just some terrible ADV holdover.
 
to be honest, it looks like an inferior calm mind set. it's basically the cm set but with a few hp evs, leftovers, and encore over calm mind. i'd merge them and end up with

[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 3: Psychic / Ice Beam
move 4: Encore / Hidden Power Grass
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Cloud Nine
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
 
I don't really see how it's an inferior CM set when they do completely different things. I get the feeling this isn't an argument I can win though. I'm gonna be busy this week anyway crashing courses so I'll come back to this in a few days. Maybe someone else can weigh in and let me know if the original set has value or if I'm just being needlessly stubborn.
 
i feel like it's an inferior calm mind set because, like i said, they are virtually the same, differing in only one move. you could easily put them together and have that set counter weather (lo stab surf / hydro pump has to ohko kabutops / omastar and psychic is ohkoing toxicroak and putting a giant dent in ludicolo, boosted or not), utilize encore, and not be weak with calm mind...like i said they are just too similar for my tastes.

i'd like another qc member's opinion on this
 
Ok, let's go. The CM set underwent a (heavy) discussion regarding the order of slashes and it was deemed that CM / Ice Beam / HP Grass / Surf was the superior option, and that Psychic really didn't accomplish much (Toxicroack isn't that bulky anyways, and you're not guaranteed to even outspeed it; Poliwrath takes a lot from HP Grass already etc etc); so I'd keep this the main order. Regarding the mergery with the Encore Weather Set, I'd support that 100% because Encore really doesn't go a long way when it comes to countering weather (and if we have to go with a pure weather counter, I'd rather just slash a Life Orb before Choice Specs on the Specs set), as the only thing you'll be encoring are weather effects (and it's risky because these Pokemon can just switch out), and Ludicolo's Swords Dance, which is even riskier. With everything said, I'd go with this:

name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 3: Ice Beam / Psychic
move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Encore
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Cloud Nine
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Leftovers makes more sense with Encore, while LO goes with the 3 attacks version; but both items can be used on any set. This is pretty much the same set as the one bad ass posted, but Ice Beam goes better with 3 attacks and Psychic goes better with 2 only, as Water and Psychic have a very good coverage in UU.

I'll add more about the other sets later.
 
Encore's purpose on that set was more to disrupt non-weather teams as well, since Golduck does fine at countering weather with just 3 attacks. And Hydro Pump + Psychic does alright at countering rain, but it fails against Grass-type Sun sweepers. The strength of Encore Weather Counter is that it outspeeds and gets super effective hits against pretty much all weather sweepers, while also being useful against standard teams with Encore and decent power/coverage/survivability.

But anyway, you guys are both recommending the same thing so it'd be silly for me to keep arguing against it. Added Psychic/Encore to the CM set, and removed Encore Weather Counter. Put a mention of Encore + 3 attacks in OC.

I've been thinking about the viability of Mixed Attacker. The fact that Cross Chop only 2HKOs Chansey and Clefable 64% of the time thanks to its poor accuracy and doesn't even 2HKO Registeel or Lanturn makes it seem pretty weak. It's sacrificing a lot of Speed for a pretty low pay-out. I'm thinking maybe I should remove that set, or merge it with Choice Specs into an all-out attacker like this.

[SET]
name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Psychic
item: Choice Specs / Life Orb
ability: Cloud Nine
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

with a mention of using an alternate 120 Atk / 252 SpA / 136 Spe spread with Cross Chop in AC. Thoughts on this?
 
Yeah, that set you mentioned would be pretty much the "new" weather counter I mentioned up there, as you have super effective coverage against both weathers and can hit pretty much every common sweeper bar Ludicolo for super effective damage. IMO, Life Orb should come before, Cross Chop should get slashed after Psychic, a Mild nature should come after Timid, and the write-up should specify the different spread. I've never been too fond of going mixed on Golduck because that really isn't his best niche; so summing up:

name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Psychic / Cross Chop
item: Life Orb / Choice Specs
ability: Cloud Nine
nature: Timid / Rash
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Specs should never use Cross Chop, make sure you clear that up. Outside of that, this looks good to me.
 
I use a Calm Mind, Chesto-Rest set heavily and it works well in NU. Runs into a couple problems, but he uses Surf and HP Grass the best. Much easier to make use of the Chesto-Rest strategy in NU however. He has good enough stats to make use of it, so maybe a mention in OC would be OK.
 
Thanks Bluewind. Bad Ass has confirmed he's happy with this as well so I'll get it written up soon.
 
This is excellent. Looks exactly like the changes I proposed to QC last year. Nice work on the update.
 
If you do not have anything constructive to add (which you usually don't), I'd thank you if you refrained from bumping C&C threads that have already been approved because I'm actually trying to help people out; and once I see something has been posted it tends to be a suggestion that QC members have to weigh in. And this wasn't what you proposed (in fact, you kept ranting how Psychic should get the main slash on the CM set, which it did not).
 
Yeah, sure, buddy. I was complimenting him on the analysis because it included all of the information and changes I suggested a while ago, which are geared toward Golduck's maximum effectiveness as a weather counter. Bottom-line: Qwilfish and Croak are common on Rain Dance teams. If you don't have Psychic, they force Golduck out and steal free momentum. Your weather counter should have a way to beat them or it's not doing its job.
 
Guess what bro, there's no dedicated weather counter set. There is a set that has being a weather counter as an extension of its main job and its the last one. What you said way back then is that Psychic was superior to Ice Beam on the Calm Mind set because it could hit Qwilfish and Toxicroack, which has been deemed wrong. Get real, if everyone doesn't agree with you, that might mean you're wrong. Maybe getting banned once didn't teach you that.
 
a) weather counter set doesnt exist

b) 433 Atk vs 166 Def & 307 HP (95 Base Power): 232 - 273 (75.57% - 88.93%)
+1 lo ice beam vs 4/0 toxicroak

433 Atk vs 146 Def & 271 HP (120 Base Power): 248 - 292 (91.51% - 107.75%)
+1 lo hydro pump vs 4/0 qwilfish


your arguement is invalid
 
What you said way back then is that Psychic was superior to Ice Beam on the Calm Mind set because it could hit Qwilfish and Toxicroack, which has been deemed wrong.
I'm sorry, but that's not even close to an argument as to why Psychic doesn't deserve its spot. It hits Venusaur, the formerly #1 Pokemon and reigning king of Grass types in UU. But it also hits two problem Pokemon Golduck is likely to encounter on a Rain team. And if it was "deemed wrong" why is it being approved on the set now? At least this guy has enough sense to realize that coverage against Rain teams is more important than a little extra coverage against Grass types, most of which outspeed him, and the most important of which you hit anyway.

b) 433 Atk vs 166 Def & 307 HP (95 Base Power): 232 - 273 (75.57% - 88.93%)
+1 lo ice beam vs 4/0 toxicroak

433 Atk vs 146 Def & 271 HP (120 Base Power): 248 - 292 (91.51% - 107.75%)
+1 lo hydro pump vs 4/0 qwilfish
a) weather counter set doesnt exist
Those sets require a +1, which you're not getting for free vs. a Rain team. The first one isn't even a KO and the second isn't even a guaranteed KO. Here are the calcs for Psychic:

vs. Qwilfish: 122.5% - 144.6%
vs. Toxicroak: 190.2% - 224.1%

Both guaranteed KOs. Don't know about you, but I'd rather not get OHKOed by Cross Chop or suicide myself on Qwilfish.

Look, Golduck is a pretty cool Pokemon and a decent LO attacker, but I'm not going to pretend even for a second that he's an optimal team choice outside of countering weather. If all I wanted was an offensive Water type, I'd just use Milotic, the best damn Water Pokemon in UU. It has similar Speed way better bulk, and the only important target its Speed doesn't allow it to hit is Toxicroak. If you have Golduck on your team, it's because you need him as a precaution to beat Rain teams. Maybe Sun teams too, but all-out attacker would be the better set for that.

He's a weather counter first and LO attacker second. If I stopped seeing Rain teams around, I'd switch right back to Milotic.
 
Really, I'm not sure if you're dumb or something but I'll make my last post here and then just let this thread die. I'll also use small words for the sake of my good mood. Ice Beam, Hidden Power Grass and Surf are the best 3 moves coverage Golduck can get (Psychic doesn't shit Shiftry, Tangrwoth, Victreebell and other weather sweepers as well), just as much as Ice Beam also hits Torterra, Venusaur, bulky / paralyzed / switching in Leafeon, paralyzed / switching in Sceptile; all of which can OHKO Golduck. Now, we have Qwilfish and Toxicroack, one of them isn't even common on rain teams anyways (I'm talking about Toxicroack, and if you say the contrary that's a blalant lie); while the other is just frail as fuck. Added to that, both of these Pokemon tie with Golduck and hit him for a OHKO / 70% (and yes, before you make a whole new post to say rain Qwilfish isn't Jolly, he isn't used inside rain only and Toxicroack mostly runs a positive nature). Psychic was included because Encore was brought up and it offers the best 2 attacks moverage out of those 3 moves; not because it beats rain, not because Qwilfish and Toxicroack and terifying threats. The second time Psychic gets mentioned is on the All-Out Attacker set, which it had already been on the original Choice Specs write-up and was just changed so we could fit Cross Chop and rectify Golduck's low Special Attack (and which wasn't even discussed on the original thread).

Me, Bad Ass, Eo and many other people did talk about this, believe you or not, when this set was first posted, and all of us tested Golduck as well. So yes, before you post on new threads with implicit criticism I ask you to evaluate your post and see if it's adding something useful.

If you have Golduck on your team, it's because you need him as a precaution to beat Rain teams. Maybe Sun teams too, but all-out attacker would be the better set for that.

And what in the bloddy existance of Toxicroack does the All-Out Attacker set have that allows it to counter sun but not rain teams? You said yourself you cannot get a Calm Mind versus weather teams so we end up on the same situation.
 
(Psychic doesn't shit Shiftry, Tangrwoth, Victreebell and other weather sweepers as well),
Victreebel is weak to Psychic, and granted, you're right, Shiftry, and Tangrowth are not KOed by Psychic, but Tangrowth can't switch into Golduck, lest a combination of Hydro Pump and Psychic kill him. This is why I suggested Psychic on the all out attacker set a while ago before Flare and the others opted to have it changed to CM. I still don't think CM is any better than all-out attacker, but as long as the set is there, I'm fine with it.

And what in the bloddy existance of Toxicroack does the All-Out Attacker set have that allows it to counter sun but not rain teams? You said yourself you cannot get a Calm Mind versus weather teams so we end up on the same situation.
All four moveslots. With that set, you can actually use both Psychic and Ice Beam, giving him the coverage to beat just about any weather team around.

Also, trying to be diplomatic when you've basically been insulting me this entire thread isn't going to work. If you really have beef with me, hit me up in a PM so we can talk it out like adults. Otherwise, let's keep the discussion about Golduck.
 
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