Pokémon Greninja

[Bravadorado]

I don't know if it has been suggested yet but I tried a banded greninja set to abuse u-turn and priority moves and it works pretty well. Here it is :

Greninja Choice Band
Trait : Protean
Nature : Adamant
EVs : 252 Att, 252 Spe, 4 HP (or whatever)
Water Shuriken
Shadow Sneak
U-turn
Return

Having STAB in 2 priority moves in Water Shuriken and Shadow Sneak makes it a great revenge killer. Shadow Sneak can be used to turn into a ghost type to take anything dark is weak too, particularly fighting. U-turn to deal lots of damage while keeping offensive momentum and return because it's a strong physical move with no drawback (and gets STAB obviously).

I feel as though a set like this will only be viable if Blaziken drops down to OU. That would make a few key threats in Blaziken and Talonflame that this set could remove better than the special set. Of course simply placing Water Shuriken on the special set might also get the job done well, but I don't have calcs for that. Also Shadow Sneak works well on Blaziken in particular since you can try to bait out a HJK.

Anyone have Calcs on how hard Greninja's special set would hit Blaziken/Talonflame with Water Shuriken?

How viable could a more dedicated mixed set be?

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Nature: Hasty
EV's: 100 Atk, 116 SpAtk, 252 Spe
- U Turn
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- HP Fire/HP Ghost

If someone could do damage calculations for me, that would be great. I can't do them on my phone :/

How is this a mixed set? It's just the standard special set with attack EVs for no reason. You generally use U-turn for momentum more than damage, unless it's to take out Starmie or something which I think will OHKO even without investment (Seem to remember that being mentioned previously).

Edit: Yeah, "Also 0 Atk Life Orb Starmie U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 218-257 (83.52 - 98.46%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock" right in the OP.

If you wanted to outright KO it then you could invest a couple EVs from speed since I believe someone mentioned that you only need 240 or abouts. Or you could just forgo the momentum and pick up Darkpulse.

Either way, your set is almost exactly the same as the one mentioned in the OP, except with a bunch of rather useless attack EVs for your one physical attack that doesn't even need them. :/

 

[Jean mi]

I feel as though a set like this will only be viable if Blaziken drops down to OU. That would make a few key threats in Blaziken and Talonflame that this set could remove better than the special set. Of course simply placing Water Shuriken on the special set might also get the job done well, but I don't have calcs for that. Also Shadow Sneak works well on Blaziken in particular since you can try to bait out a HJK.

It can also counter sweepers that focus on speed, (Mega) Alakazam, (Mega) Gengar, Volcarona or Excadrill for example.

 

[VCrowe]

I feel as though a set like this will only be viable if Blaziken drops down to OU. That would make a few key threats in Blaziken and Talonflame that this set could remove better than the special set. Of course simply placing Water Shuriken on the special set might also get the job done well, but I don't have calcs for that. Also Shadow Sneak works well on Blaziken in particular since you can try to bait out a HJK.

Anyone have Calcs on how hard Greninja's special set would hit Blaziken/Talonflame with Water Shuriken?

How is this a mixed set? It's just the standard special set with attack EVs for no reason. You generally use U-turn for momentum more than damage, unless it's to take out Starmie or something which I think will OHKO even without investment (Seem to remember that being mentioned previously).

Edit: Yeah, "Also 0 Atk Life Orb Starmie U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 218-257 (83.52 - 98.46%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock" right in the OP.

If you wanted to outright KO it then you could invest a couple EVs from speed since I believe someone mentioned that you only need 240 or abouts. Or you could just forgo the momentum and pick up Darkpulse.

Either way, your set is almost exactly the same as the one mentioned in the OP, except with a bunch of rather useless attack EVs for your one physical attack that doesn't even need them. :/

The 100 Atk EV's are there to KO Celebi, who was a major pain in my ass last Gen. The set was somerhing I had been tossing around in my head for the past two days, and I was just wondering how well it would work. But I think Greninja really needs the max SpAtk to grab essential KO's...

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

Anyone have Calcs on how hard Greninja's special set would hit Blaziken/Talonflame with Water Shuriken?

4 Atk (custom) (Water Shuriken hits 3 times) vs. 192 HP / 0 Def (custom): 126-150 (36.52 - 43.47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not that great, especially against Bulk Up Talonflame or ones with Roost. In order for Water Shuriken to be useful, you really need to commit to physical investment.

 

[Bravadorado]

4 Atk (custom) (Water Shuriken hits 3 times) vs. 192 HP / 0 Def (custom): 126-150 (36.52 - 43.47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not that great, especially against Bulk Up Talonflame or ones with Roost. In order for Water Shuriken to be useful, you really need to commit to physical investment.

I see, that's disappointing, but I suppose that opens up a niche for physical Greninja. How does it compare to Azumaril? I know Azumaril has Aquajet, does it get any other priorities or etc that would essentially outclass this physical greninja set?

 

[BROloom]

I see, that's disappointing, but I suppose that opens up a niche for physical Greninja. How does it compare to Azumaril? I know Azumaril has Aquajet, does it get any other priorities or etc that would essentially outclass this physical greninja set?

Azumarils Aqua Jet does more damage than a 2 hit water shuriken, but less than a 3 hit.

Greninja would have the ability to run 2 stab priority moves, but lacks the bulk the CB Azumarill does and does less damage, however, if you run 252 speed you outspeed up to positive natured base 106, so, there's that.

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

I see, that's disappointing, but I suppose that opens up a niche for physical Greninja. How does it compare to Azumaril? I know Azumaril has Aquajet, does it get any other priorities or etc that would essentially outclass this physical greninja set?

Azumarril has way higher attack and has Belly Drum so his priority Aqua Jet should always do more damage. If you're interested in Physical Greninja, look on page 10 where I posted a set that has lots of damage calcs.

 

[BROloom]

Azumarril has way higher attack and has Belly Drum so his priority Aqua Jet should always do more damage. If you're interested in Physical Greninja, look on page 10 where I posted a set that has lots of damage calcs.

Am I missing something or are your calcs completely off in that? Everything is far lower than it should be.

Edit: Yeah, I'm getting the correct calcs on the Shadow Sneak, but the Water Shuriken is completely off.

4 Atk (custom) (Water Shuriken hits 3 times) vs. 192 HP / 0 Def (custom): 126-150 (36.52 - 43.47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not that great, especially against Bulk Up Talonflame or ones with Roost. In order for Water Shuriken to be useful, you really need to commit to physical investment.

See, even here, I'm getting 42.6 - 53.91%, not your 36.52 - 43.47%

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

My calcs should be right BROloom

Are you sure you did Hasty with 4 Atk Evs and 45 BP for 3 hits

 

[Schpoonman]

Water Shuriken's BP is 15, not 25 like pretty much every other multihit move. That alone seriously hampers its viability.

EDIT Fluffy Blue Bunny: You don't have a boosting item on those calcs. Slap a Life Orb, Choice Band, or Expert Belt on and then come back, Greninja has no reason not to run a boosting item.

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

Yeah, with life orb it is stronger than what I posted above. I guess I had a brain fart. But for the record to BROloom , I did use life orb in the calcs for the set on page 10 so I can't imagine the calcs are wrong. I'm also still confused since (with life orb), I got 47.53 - 56.52%, which is higher than what you got.

But like Lord of Bays said, I can't imagine Water Shuriken hitting hard enough most times and it would be taking up a valuable coverage move slot.

 

[Vorena]

Water Shuriken's BP is 15, not 25 like pretty much every other multihit move. That alone seriously hampers its viability.

Its probably best to simply view its base power in terms of its priority equivalent. Not factoring in STAB, the expected base power damage is 47.5 which is indeed higher than the most common priority attacks. Ignoring a weighted average the minimum damage is 30 BP 1/3 of the time while 2/3 of the time it will be hitting 45, 60, or 75 base power.

 

[Bravadorado]

Its probably best to simply view its base power in terms of its priority equivalent. Not factoring in STAB, the expected base power damage is 47.5 which is indeed higher than the most common priority attacks. Ignoring a weighted average the minimum damage is 30 BP 1/3 of the time while 2/3 of the time it will be hitting 45, 60, or 75 base power.

What I like about it is that there is a very low chance that you won't get those 3 hits off. So almost all of the time it will hit for MORE damage than a normal priority, while also being able to go further than that and hit for upwards of ExtreemeSpeed damage if you're lucky. It's pretty much low risk, high reward. It's definitely one of the best priority moves in the game.

 

[ExEmegadeth]

What I like about it is that there is a very low chance that you won't get those 3 hits off. So almost all of the time it will hit for MORE damage than a normal priority, while also being able to go further than that and hit for upwards of ExtreemeSpeed damage if you're lucky. It's pretty much low risk, high reward. It's definitely one of the best priority moves in the game.

Sadly it isn't always guaranteed to always get 5 hits off. The move really wants to have all 5 hits, due to the fact on how much power it lacks on one hit. The attack could be used to kill something at low health, but relying on the attack as a way to kill healthy mons really doesn't work.

 

[Bravadorado]

Sadly it isn't always guaranteed to always get 5 hits off. The move really wants to have all 5 hits, due to the fact on how much power it lacks on one hit. The attack could be used to kill something at low health, but relying on the attack as a way to kill healthy mons really doesn't work.

It's not even possible to hit with this move once. You will always hit at least twice, and more likely you will generally hit 3 times. At 3 hits it completely outclasses most other priority moves. Add in the chance to get even higher BP and it becomes one of the best priority moves.

Did you not see the calcs posted earlier? It can OHKO Dugtrio, nearly OHKO Blaziken and Volcorona, and put a huge dent in Talonflame and Excadrill at ONLY 3 hits. If you get lucky and hit a few more, it's bye-bye to most speed sweepers that are weak to it.

It's not Froakie's best set, and it might be outclassed by Azumarill, but you can't deny that the move has power. If he had a bit more attack stat then it might be very viable. I for one look forward to seeing this breedable onto something else in the future.

 

[Darkhound]

The Move Tutor is the move relearner. Greninja learns spikes at Lv 28 (Source: http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/658.shtml) but can't learn it to being an impossible level. However, it can be re-learned.

And unfortunately, Sticky Web cannot be blocked by Taunt. It does 20BP worth of damage.

yeah i just went to the move realearner after i posted that and found that out, that sucks for the Sticky web, gonna be fairly difficult to counter that on an Offensive time without a rapid spinner seeing as the magic bouncers are all weak to Bug, however having the webs on both sides makes for an even play field it would seem so might still be an option.

 

[VCrowe]

Well, concerning Sticky Web, I find that Sticky Web Galvantula and Greninja make an awesome pair. They create a great VoltTurn core, expertly covering each others weaknesses. Granted, both have very poor defenses so you still have to be wary on the switch in. From my experience so far, I have yet to see a single 'mon that can outspeed my Greninja after -1 from Sticky Web. However, that may change when PokéBank releases. I also find that MegaZor makes a good teammate. Access to Defog allows him to clear the field of pesky entry hazards that can turn a 2HKO on your Greninja into a 1HKO.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

It's a touch more situational, but I've been liking a physical greninja. Here are the two variants I've been using:

Froggy Bottom Bog:
Greninja @ Leftovers
Trait: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Shadow Sneak
- Spikes
- U-Turn

The moves are mostly for protean abuse: waterfall is for a general attacking move; since it gets STAB on everything, I might look at dropping waterfall (same with next set... Spikes > Waterfall could work better there). Shadow Sneak allows him to spinblock and avoid fighting moves initially aimed at him, as well as get a solid priority hit off should he need it. U-Turn for switch advantage, and spikes for both hazards and a useful electric immunity.

On my team with Skarmory, I run a different set with better coverage (and one immensely powerful attack), but flying gem isn't released yet, so until it gets released this is confined to pokebank:

Flying Frog:
Greninja @ Flying Gem
Trait: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall / Spikes (Since everything is STAB, something like Spikes or Night Slash might outclass waterfall)
- Shadow Sneak
- Acrobatics
- U-Turn

I was also testing out a band set for a while. I tried running Hydro Pump > Waterfall on the first set for a while, but found it a bit lacking. Ice beam could be an option, but it's a horrible type to get via protean.

Uhm, yeh.

 

[VCrowe]

It's a touch more situational, but I've been liking a physical greninja. Here are the two variants I've been using:

Froggy Bottom Bog:
Greninja @ Leftovers
Trait: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Shadow Sneak
- Spikes
- U-Turn

The moves are mostly for protean abuse: waterfall is for a general attacking move; since it gets STAB on everything, I might look at dropping waterfall (same with next set... Spikes > Waterfall could work better there). Shadow Sneak allows him to spinblock and avoid fighting moves initially aimed at him, as well as get a solid priority hit off should he need it. U-Turn for switch advantage, and spikes for both hazards and a useful electric immunity.

On my team with Skarmory, I run a different set with better coverage (and one immensely powerful attack), but flying gem isn't released yet, so until it gets released this is confined to pokebank:

Flying Frog:
Greninja @ Flying Gem
Trait: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall / Spikes (Since everything is STAB, something like Spikes or Night Slash might outclass waterfall)
- Shadow Sneak
- Acrobatics
- U-Turn

I was also testing out a band set for a while. I tried running Hydro Pump > Waterfall on the first set for a while, but found it a bit lacking. Ice beam could be an option, but it's a horrible type to get via protean.

Uhm, yeh.

Why have 4 SpDef instead of 4 HP? And Ice isn't that bad of a type to get.

This is the set I'm using;

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Nature: Hasty
EV's: 100 Atk, 168 SpAtk, 240 Spe
- U Turn
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- HP Fire


100 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 421-499 (104.2 - 123.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 738-873 (206.14 - 243.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 257-304 (66.75 - 78.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 640-754 (165.8 - 195.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Scizor: 442-530 (128.48 - 154.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 257-304 (70.6 - 83.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm loving the ninja frog!

 

[Schpoonman]

There's no way that's an OHKO through Multiscale. 252 LO Ice Beam barely gets it guaranteed on DDnite. You have to remember to switch Dragonite's Ability. I don't know why Honko doesn't automatically set it (because Dragonite will totally be using Inner Focus), but that's terribly misleading.

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 343-406 (88.86 - 105.18%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

[VCrowe]

There's no way that's an OHKO through Multiscale. 252 LO Ice Beam barely gets it guaranteed on DDnite. You have to remember to switch Dragonite's Ability. I don't know why Honko doesn't automatically set it (because Dragonite will totally be using Inner Focus), but that's terribly misleading.

252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 343-406 (88.86 - 105.18%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Just double checked, and your right. Still, getting a 2HKO is pretty good. However, the OHKO is still scored on Multiscale Dragonite after Stealth Rock damage with the set I posted.
Also, even factoring Multiscale, both my set, and the 252 SpAtk one both deal more damage than Dragonite can Roost off. If Dragonite switches in on the Ice Beam, he's getting KO'ed next turn.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Essentially, that mixed set you posted is the special attacker listed in the OP, but with some Atk EVs replacing SpA. You're running HP Fire which means a 30 Attack, SpA, and Speed IVs, so you definitely need at least 244 EVs to outspeed Dugtrio/Alakazam. Taking the lowered SpA EVs into consideration:

164 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 304-359 (93.82 - 110.8%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

So dropping SpA loses the guaranteed OHKO and results in lower special power overall. Those 100 Atk EVs aren't needed to OHKO 252/0 Celebi, you'll only need 64 for that. Not to mention Celebi's not released yet so Atk investment isn't very useful right now. I'd say just stick with max SpA.

 

[VCrowe]

To me, Greninja is all about prediction. I don't think the Atk EV's are wasted, since it allows Greninja to hit Psychic types harder, which it would otherwise need Dark Pulse or HP Ghost for. Since Greninja needs HP Fire, Hydro Pump, and Ice Beam for coverage, U Turn with a Life Orb coming off of 261 Atk will hurt.

100 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 244-291 (59.65 - 71.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

100 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mew: 211-250 (61.69 - 73.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

100 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 315-374 (94.31 - 111.97%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO

I'm thinking long term here, which is why I'm using some currently unavailable 'mons in my calculations.

 

[Percussionist]

I believe this was mentioned previously in this thread, but Ice Beam is a terribly scary move for Protean Greninja to use. While offering great coverage, and being one of few moves with significant power, it leaves him as an Ice type on the switch. This leads Greninja to being easily revenged after the KO by sending in a mon with a super effective priority. Given that both Bullet Punch and Mach Punch are relatively common in the metagame (eh vacuum wave), it's not hard to take out Greninja. I assume this is a given in most of these situations, but I ran a few calcs of common priority users against Ice Greninja.

252 Adamant Life Orb Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4/0 Timid Greninja : 136.4% - 160.1%
252 Adamant Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4/0 Timid Greninja : 81.8% - 96.5%
252 Adamant Life Orb Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4/0 Timid Greninja : 77.6% - 92.3%
252 Adamant Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4/0 Timid Greninja : 69.9% - 82.5%
252 Adamant Life Orb Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4/0 Timid Greninja : 90.2% - 107%

Granted that the option to not use Life Orb/Adamant exists, but this is the reality that Greninja could be facing when stuck in Ice typing. While not all are clean OHKOs, the damage is significant enough to restrain Greninja from using Life Orb for very long afterwards. Assuming rocks are in play, and assuming Ice Beam was used the previous turn, even the lowest calc (Breloom's min roll Mach Punch) only allows Greninja to use one more attack before fainting. Thoughts?

 

[Shroomisaur]

I believe this was mentioned previously in this thread, but Ice Beam is a terribly scary move for Protean Greninja to use. While offering great coverage, and being one of few moves with significant power, it leaves him as an Ice type on the switch. This leads Greninja to being easily revenged after the KO by sending in a mon with a super effective priority. Given that both Bullet Punch and Mach Punch are relatively common in the metagame (eh vacuum wave), it's not hard to take out Greninja. I assume this is a given in most of these situations, but I ran a few calcs of common priority users against Ice Greninja.

252 Adamant Life Orb Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4/0 Timid Greninja : 136.4% - 160.1%
252 Adamant Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 4/0 Timid Greninja : 81.8% - 96.5%
252 Adamant Life Orb Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4/0 Timid Greninja : 77.6% - 92.3%
252 Adamant Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4/0 Timid Greninja : 69.9% - 82.5%
252 Adamant Life Orb Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4/0 Timid Greninja : 90.2% - 107%

Granted that the option to not use Life Orb/Adamant exists, but this is the reality that Greninja could be facing when stuck in Ice typing. While not all are clean OHKOs, the damage is significant enough to restrain Greninja from using Life Orb for very long afterwards. Assuming rocks are in play, and assuming Ice Beam was used the previous turn, even the lowest calc (Breloom's min roll Mach Punch) only allows Greninja to use one more attack before fainting. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that you forgot to give Breloom Life Orb OR Technician in that calc! It's exactly the same strength as Scizor's BP.

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 390-460 (136.84 - 161.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Anyway, it's obvious that Greninja can't take priority when in the wrong type, Dark Pulse leaves you in a similar bind. That's what teammates are for, after all. Greninja operates best later in the match, once you've worn down anything that can check him. If you see powerful priority on the opposing team, play appropriately!