Ask yourself this: Whats the point in having max Speed when it's not beneficial for anything other than a speed tie that should be avoided like the plauge? A Greninja mirror comes down to complete luck when both have max Speed, so you might as well put those points into something else. And while two extra attack points may only increase the U Turn damage by two points, it's better than wasting points in speed for something that's luck based.
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Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
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It makes arguably more of an impactful difference than speed tying. Let's go over it real fast.
What do you have to worry about when speed tying? Well, normally you are making a bet on your pokemon's life versus the opponents pokemon's life. This is a pretty good bet as your opponent may not always have 252 EVs or a perfect speed IV or a speed nature. So the chances go from being 50/50 to something much better (And 50/50 isn't a bad chance anyway).
However, Greninja is different. Greninja's type changes according to the move he just used. So now you have a new equation. Do you bet on being able to go faster than the enemy Greninja and KO it with a SE move to its base typing? Or do you bet on the enemy Greninja being unable to OHKO you, and use a move that should OHKO after his type changes?
Here are some examples of both the situations:
You use Grass Knot hoping that even with its low BP it will kill the enemy Greninja. You win the speed tie, and are correct, it KOs.
You use Grass Knot hoping that even with its low BP it will kill the enemy Greninja. You win the speed tie, but you are incorrect. The enemy Greninja, predicts the Grass Knot, and uses HP Fire/U-Turn to KO you after receiving your attack.
And that isn't even factoring in that you could lose the tie. There is so much prediction and mindgames in a Greninja vs Greninja war that it isn't even worth it imo. It's much easier to simply switch to a check/counter like Scizor, Breloom, Conkeldurr, Lucario, Infernape, Talonflame, etc. (Anything with priority).
There is much much more risk involved in speed tying with a Greninja than speed tying with practically anything else, simply because it no longer becomes "If it outspeeds me, I lose. If I outspeed it, I win." It becomes "If it outspeeds me or I outspeed it, and I do or don't predict the right move to use if he does or doesn't, then I could win or lose."
Edit: Also, your argument is fairly hypocritical. Your argument assumes there is only 8 attack EVs and that they will not factor into any needed OHKOs. Your argument also assumes that there are 252 EVs in SpA, even though it offers no noticeably valuable OHKOs. So why the double standard? It's okay to keep 88 EVs in SpA when they don't offer much, but putting 8 in Attack is a crime? Both don't offer much, so why not put 96 EVs in Attack and ensure that they MATTER by OHKOing Celebi, Espeon, and other fragile psychics?
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Very well put. The mind games contained in Greninja Vs Greninja are the exact reason why my set doesn't run max speed. It's just not worth the risk.
My argument is not hypocritical, because I'm pretty sure it's been fairly clear that I've solely been debating the merit between full speed investment and 244 speed investment. Why should SpA come into play at all? 88 EVs in SpA offers you the possibility of running Surf when instead you might have to use Hydro pump, that's not insignificant. But that's actually totally irrelevant to the discussion we're having. Even taking into account dropping SpA, what I'm really interested in is: is there a difference between 96 atk EVs and 88 Atk EVs. I've never really condemned investing into attack at all, I'm actually asking if it's worth it or not. You guys have spent a lot of time talking about how worthless 252 speed is but haven't actually evaluated if 8 EVs into attack is equally worthless. Does 2 extra attack actually impact in any scenario at all? I'm not so sure and you guys haven't exactly explored that either.
If you 2HKO something with a chance of OHKOing, it makes the chance of OHKOing higher. It's not a significant boost, but enough to merit it over speed tying with a Greninja that you basically should never fight in the first place.
The logic doesn't really follow though if you stop overthinking it. Greninja is so frail that a SE hit from opposing Greninja is always going to KO, it will be just like any other speed tie, if you win the tie, you KO, if you lose, you're KO'd or the opponent has U-turned you for good damage and have switched to a counter.
I mean, I'm not advocating trying to send Greninja in against opposing Greninja as a legitimate strategy, but the speed tie isn't as bad as ArdentSun has made it out to be. There are no mindgames beyond the normal and for this reason, I honestly believe achieving the speed tie is worth more than 2 extra damage per U-turn.
I think that if your goal is beating frail Psychics, then U-Turn isn't the best option. Greninja's Attack is still mediocre, no good player is switching in Espeon or Latias, and KOing something with U-Turn isn't a great especially idea, because it gives the opponent a better match-up. Even though a Hasty Nature is what is recommended, U-Turn is still mostly for momentum, with more damage being a plus.
I would still prefer max Special Attack and possibly Speed over those EVs. It's also worth mentioning that Hidden Power Fire requires 30 Speed IVs, which also lowers Greninja's Speed but gives it better coverage.
I would still prefer max Special Attack and possibly Speed over those EVs. It's also worth mentioning that Hidden Power Fire requires 30 Speed IVs, which also lowers Greninja's Speed but gives it better coverage.
Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
What "mind games with opposing Greninja"? Greninja is so frail, it's as simple as "whoever goes first wins". Missing out on a speed tie with opposing Greninja is NOT worth 8 EVs, no matter how you look at it. The only reason you should ever drop speed is if you have an imperfect speed IV (for HP Fire, etc). I can't believe this is even a discussion. Greninja is quite common and giving yourself a 0% chance versus a 50% chance just for 2 attack makes no sense.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, there's little-to-no point in running attack in the first place. Celebi isn't released, so aside from better damage on TTar, Espeon and Alakazam are the only two Pokemon you'd want it for, and even then:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 304-359 (91.01 - 107.48%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD (Mega)Alakazam: 304-359 (120.63 - 142.46%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I see no point in the attack investment. U-Turn should be used for scouting and maintaining offensive pressure; boosting chip damage is not worth dropping your desperately needed special attack power or missing out on an important speed tie.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, there's little-to-no point in running attack in the first place. Celebi isn't released, so aside from better damage on TTar, Espeon and Alakazam are the only two Pokemon you'd want it for, and even then:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 304-359 (91.01 - 107.48%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD (Mega)Alakazam: 304-359 (120.63 - 142.46%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I see no point in the attack investment. U-Turn should be used for scouting and maintaining offensive pressure; boosting chip damage is not worth dropping your desperately needed special attack power or missing out on an important speed tie.
With a naive nature:
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD (custom): 101-120 (35.43 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 268-320 (94.03 - 112.28%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD (custom): 147-173 (51.57 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD (custom): 116-136 (40.7 - 47.71%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD (custom): 86-101 (30.17 - 35.43%) -- 33.47% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD (custom): 97-116 (34.03 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Greninja sets would only carry two things that are SE to an opposing Greninja, a 3HKO and a possible OHKO. U-Turn is the closest thing to an OHKO and that's only a chance. This is of course assuming that the enemy Greninja hasn't changed type yet. If it has, then things get more complicated. So not only do you have to win the speed tie, but you have to hit them with U-turn and switch out hoping that it KOs them and they don't hit your switch-in for SE damage (Which is possible considering his coverage).
You have one move with the potential to OHKO an opposing Greninja, and it also forces you to switch out, that is IF you win the speed tie. Why take the chance? If they go before you and change type to bug, water, or ice then you're going to do:
4 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 90-107 (31.57 - 37.54%) -- 88.38% chance to 3HKO
and god forbid they use HP Fire on the prediction:
4 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 44-53 (15.43 - 18.59%) -- possible 6HKO
The mind games tie in a lot to the 50% chance on the speed tie. Your only move to defeat a Greninja is only a 31.25% (50% speed tie, 62.5% chance to OHKO) chance to do so, and it forces you to switch out. Why not switch to an appropriate counter instead of taking the gamble?
Correct, but a player might switch in a Celebi. The extra EVs in attack aren't really needed anywhere else and will give you a few nice KOs on Psychics and Darks without running Dark Pulse. It doesn't really matter if you gave your opponent a better match up because you just killed one of his pokemon. All you have to do is switch pokemon again, via volturn or what have you.
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Probably because U-turn is the most sensible decision from both parties in that situation by far. If you switch and they U-turn, you lose the turn, whereas if you U-turn and they U-turn, it's 50-50 unless you're running less speed of HP-fire in which case, you lose guaranteed no matter what. There is no mind-game. It's a 50-50.
Edit: Celebi's out of the game if it switches in on U-turn no matter the attack investment. Taking a hit like that and a counter switching in? Get out of here.
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Since when are sensible decisions factored into the human element? If U-Turn is the sensible decision, then maybe I will use Hydro Pump which will do 51.57 - 60.7% damage to you while your U-turn then only does 31.57 - 37.54% to me. And even if I don't win the speed tie, I might live, and you'll probably switch into something to resist my U-turn (Which is what a sensible person would do, right?) like maybe a Fire type or a bulky rock/ground type which I will then OHKO with Hydro Pump (Or anything else that I'll do significant damage to unless it resists which is unlikely since you would be silly to send in a grass type and that only leaves dragon and water).
Also, running HP Fire doesn't mean you lose the speed tie no matter what, because both Greninjas are likely to have it. But that's another thing you have to predict around, adding to the mind games.
Edit: Why would you hit Celebi with U-turn on the switch in? It probably switched in because you just went in to counter one of their pokemon. I see no reason for you to use U-turn in that situation unless the pokemon you are countering is grass/psychic/dark, in which case why would the enemy send in Celebi? Besides that, Celebi was only an example.
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Right. Well seeing as the discussion we're having seems to be getting increasingly hostile with sarcasm creeping into the comments now, I'll end it here because it honestly doesn't seem like you'll even consider any alternative to your current mindset.
For the record, no one would switch in a U-turn resister in that scenario because even if you had survived the hit, you are going to die to life orb damage no matter what you choose. I'd probably just throw a blissey at you or something. I have no qualms about you continuing to use your spread though so have at it.
Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
Those calcs are irrelevant. Why would you go for anything but U-Turn in a Greninja-Greninja encounter? The only reason would be if the opponent has already shifted with Protean, so then you just select the appropriate coverage move instead. It is just as simple as any mirror matchup, a 50-50.
The main problem with your reasoning is that you're assuming an "ideal" scenario where you have a great Greninja counter waiting in the wings. Yes, obviously a Greninja vs Greninja scenario is not ideal by any means, and it would be best to switch to a counter if you have one... but that's not always possible. We're talking about a scenario that very well could happen: your opponent saved Greninja until late-game to sweep after your checks have been beaten down into KO range, and so did you. Both have likely taken multiple SR and LO recoils. At this point, do you ever want to give yourself a 0% chance of victory? For a completely meaningless TWO attack points?
You're making absolutely no sense. You're guaranteed to die even from 1 turn of LO or SR. If Greninja often runs HP Fire, that's all the MORE reason to run max speed as then you'll be guaranteed to win the matchup if you don't! Also if it comes down to the speed tie and you select Hydro Pump, you just gave yourself a 0% chance to win, rather than the 50% if you select U-Turn and win the speed tie.
tl;dr: Greninja vs Greninja is not ideal but even if only 0.5% of matches come down to that, having a 50% chance to win is better than 2 useless attack points. I'm not going to discuss further.
Max Speed and Max Special Attack are kind of important right now. It's not like any other Physical moves except for U-Turn are really viable on a Special Greninja. Greninja vs Greninja doesn't make much sense either, with Protean. Full Speed really is needed not mainly for other Greninja but for our speeding other threats. I agree with the others suggesting ending this argument.
It still has Protean, nice coverage, great Speed, priority, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Taunt, U-Turn, a bunch of great moves, decent Special Attack, etc.
Yeah.
Lol.
It still has Protean, nice coverage, great Speed, priority, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Taunt, U-Turn, a bunch of great moves, decent Special Attack, etc.
Yeah.
What would be considered 'good offensive stats' to you then? 103 Special Attack is perfectly acceptable when you get STAB on each move accessible from your wide coverage (including U-turn) and also outspeed a good amount of threats. Said moves don't have particularly low Base Powers either. Greninja also gets Spikes (and Toxic Spikes) which is a pretty valuable move to have.
Unless you've been using physical Greninja, then I can understand if you're disappointed. Otherwise, look at Starmie, who is both slightly weaker and slower than Greninja, yet registered as a potent offensive threat in every Generation it's been in. Don't argue that Starmie has BoltBeam, Greninja has 'STAB' Ice Beam and essentially unSTABed Thunderbolt via Protean HP Electric too.
I see where you're coming from, but I guess that's a difference of opinion. Most teams will likely have a Greninja counter on their teams with Scizor, Lucario and Talonflame running around.
But I think that we can at least all agree that this,
is hilarious.
What coverage it gives is pretty much made redundant by Dark Pulse which hits much harder and doesn't use up the HP slot.
Not really.
The main reason you'd run Shadow Sneak would be as a priority move for defensive purposes (baiting Fighting types with Greninja's natural Dark typing). If you run HP Ghost, you run the very real risk of getting smashed by Mach Punch, which on its most common users is usually fatal.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 354-421 (124.21 - 147.71%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 276-328 (96.84 - 115.08%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Shadow Sneak, while a sometimes useful gimmick, is not worth it because it just doesn't deal enough damage. HP Ghost is worse as a defensive move, and if you're using it for offense, it's better to run Dark Pulse because it offers almost the same coverage as HP Ghost but hits harder. Plus it has a juicy flinch chance.
Is there really any reason to give it Water-type moves? I feel like since it will turn into whatever type he's using, it would be better to give him strong STAB moves no on would expect - like Extrasensory or a Hidden Power, over Hydro Pump or Surf/Scald. I would run a set like this:
Greninja @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
80 HP / 176 Sp. Atk. / 252 Spe
Timid Nature | Protean
Dark Pulse
Blizzard / Ice Beam (Blizzard for the HP investment - more on this later)
Extrasensory / HP Electric / Grass Knot
Spikes / Substitute / Taunt
This set would be versatile because it can set up as well as sweep. It could work as a lead or a late-game sweeper (I've seen it used for the latter and it works quite well for its blistering Speed stat). I put HP EVs in there because your opponent doesn't know for sure what type he'll be, and using the wrong move will ensure longevity, perhaps allowing for living with a smidge of HP. Also it will allow him to be a better support Pokemon. Blizzard is chosen over Ice Beam because of the HP investment - if you choose to give him that. In any case, I would not give him a Water move. Too bad he doesn't get Focus Blast...
I would like to see a physical Greninja with Water Shuriken or Shadow Sneak, for that matter. It's easy to overlook that Attack Stat, but he could easily be a physical sweeper as well with something like U-Turn/Acrobatics (for when Flying Gem comes out)/Spikes/Shadow Sneak.
Greninja @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
80 HP / 176 Sp. Atk. / 252 Spe
Timid Nature | Protean
Dark Pulse
Blizzard / Ice Beam (Blizzard for the HP investment - more on this later)
Extrasensory / HP Electric / Grass Knot
Spikes / Substitute / Taunt
This set would be versatile because it can set up as well as sweep. It could work as a lead or a late-game sweeper (I've seen it used for the latter and it works quite well for its blistering Speed stat). I put HP EVs in there because your opponent doesn't know for sure what type he'll be, and using the wrong move will ensure longevity, perhaps allowing for living with a smidge of HP. Also it will allow him to be a better support Pokemon. Blizzard is chosen over Ice Beam because of the HP investment - if you choose to give him that. In any case, I would not give him a Water move. Too bad he doesn't get Focus Blast...
I would like to see a physical Greninja with Water Shuriken or Shadow Sneak, for that matter. It's easy to overlook that Attack Stat, but he could easily be a physical sweeper as well with something like U-Turn/Acrobatics (for when Flying Gem comes out)/Spikes/Shadow Sneak.
Conversely, you could use Shadow Sneak on him just to neutralize Mach Punchers (i.e. Breloom and Conkeldurr). Consider the set:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Timid / Hasty | Protean
6 HP / 252 Sp. Atk. / 252 Spe (or some investment in Attack)
Shadow Sneak
Extrasensory / HP Electric / Grass Knot
Ice Beam / Blizzard
Substitute / U-Turn / Water Shuriken
Thoughts? I think he'd be really dangerous if he turned into a Ghost type, but it would have to have that +1 priority.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Timid / Hasty | Protean
6 HP / 252 Sp. Atk. / 252 Spe (or some investment in Attack)
Shadow Sneak
Extrasensory / HP Electric / Grass Knot
Ice Beam / Blizzard
Substitute / U-Turn / Water Shuriken
Thoughts? I think he'd be really dangerous if he turned into a Ghost type, but it would have to have that +1 priority.
Hydro Pump is the strongest move Greninja learns. That being said, Water still has good neutral coverage and it's a safe move to use if you're not sure what they're switching in.
Like TheNargacuga said, Greninja doesn't learn Swords Dance, though he does get Power Up Punch. Even if he did, this moveset and EV spread is garbage, you are wasting Greninja's Speed while trying to patch his nonexistent bulk and you only have one move that is reliably boosted. Running U-turn on a boosting attacker is an awful idea.
Shadow Sneak on Greninja is usually a wasted move slot. If something with Priority that can KO you switches in, you're better off switching out, the same when a Spinner comes in if you don't simply outright KO them with the right move.
Instead of having Shadow Sneak to become immune to Fighting moves, have teamates that can take them and beat the Pokemon using them. Why have Shadow Sneak when you can have some helpfl coverage move or U-Turn? Also, EVs in anything other that Attack, Special Attack, and Speed is just a waste.
If it is something you cannot KO, then that is a way better option than carrying Shadow Sneak, which 1) Isn't doing anything without Attack investment, and 2) Is a total waste of a moveslot, since Dark Pulse is not only stronger, but hits everything Shadow Sneak or Hidden Power Ghost hits as well. Keep in mind that Greninja can beat almost every spinner or Defog user.
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