Let's be fair though, U-turn is mostly about the momentum, no one really cares about whether you're 5HKOing or 7HKOing the blobs when they can just Soft Boil off the damage.
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Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
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Let's be fair though, U-turn is mostly about the momentum, no one really cares about whether you're 5HKOing or 7HKOing the blobs when they can just Soft Boil off the damage.
Yeah that's all true, but I just like using it for mind games. Plus I've been seeing less and less of W-Rotom lately.
No this actually works. Starmie doesn't stay in because it expects Dark Pulse. It can take a couple unSTABed resisted moves and at least 1 STAB neutral move and 1 STAB resisted move to allow for a chance to U-Turn out. Really it's a lead that can go out after you get 2-3 layers of something(s) out, but it's also good to get Spore users off their path. I'm breeding right now for a TS Proteans so I can make a dual hazard in game. I've been using the set I listed on Showdown.
I've been looking at the different sets posted and have been wondering, with Protean, is it necessary to run a water move?
The set that I've been toying around with is:
Spikes
HP Fairy
Dark Pulse
U-turn
I haven't tested it yet (still breeding to get HP Fairy), but I feel like it's worth a shot.
The set that I've been toying around with is:
Spikes
HP Fairy
Dark Pulse
U-turn
I haven't tested it yet (still breeding to get HP Fairy), but I feel like it's worth a shot.
1) As far as I know, there is no HP Fairy.
2) A water type move is almost universally accepted as required coverage. I agree with this, since Hydro Pump is his strongest move.
3) Spikes is more of a gimmick than anything else.
Edit: Missino, I did a search and if there is a Hidden Power Fairy, no ones found out how to get it.
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I find 252 HP Azumarill very easily walls Greninja, and can hit Greninja hard with Play Rough (even if Greninja is no longer Dark type due to Protean). Also, Protean is a double edged sword, and I feel it creates more problems than you would want it to.
On one match, I Mega evolved Alakazam on Greninja and traced its Protean. I did Focus Blast (and missed), changing M-Alakazam to a Fighting type and completely walling the incoming Dark Pulse. I can't remember if I then KO'd it or the opponent switched out, but I won from forfeit.
Greninja's Speed is great; but his Atk and SpA, while pretty good, are quite far from being spectacular. That and his paltry defenses and HP really let him down, I feel. He would have been amazing in the past permanent rain metagame, though.
On one match, I Mega evolved Alakazam on Greninja and traced its Protean. I did Focus Blast (and missed), changing M-Alakazam to a Fighting type and completely walling the incoming Dark Pulse. I can't remember if I then KO'd it or the opponent switched out, but I won from forfeit.
Greninja's Speed is great; but his Atk and SpA, while pretty good, are quite far from being spectacular. That and his paltry defenses and HP really let him down, I feel. He would have been amazing in the past permanent rain metagame, though.
Yeah, although Greninja lacks any solid defense, Spikes was so it could gain some resistances. But with its inability to really take a hit, that was a bad idea on my part. Still new to the competitive play.
That aside, I'm still going to try to get HP Fairy, or at least find out if it's possible. And taking it into perspective, I'll run scald as a water stab (possible burn would help Ninja Frog last longer, and I've missed to many times with hydro pump to trust it), replacing Spikes.
I actually like the sound of this. I'll have to try it out on Showdown. On a similair note, I have experimented with Galvantula and Greninja, and while they make a GREAT pair, they're poor defenses keep them from switching back an forth, even on resisted hits.
Once pokebank comes out you could throw on, like, a Latias or something to tank some hits and deal with hazards. Plus the synergy is pretty ok.
well, for one, that greninja's stat spread couldn't have been very good or you ran a +Spe nature and he didn't, because there should be no way you were able to focus blast before a dark pulse, and two 103 base special attack, while not great is good enough when backed by same type attack boost, and as long as you're able to achieve OHKO's or guaranteed 2HKO's with the first hit doing alot of damage, Greninja works as an amazing Janitor when late game comes in
Iirc, what happened in the match was that the opponent switched Greninja in on my Alakazam on the turn I went mega, blocking a Psyshock. After that turn the whole Protean mix-up ensued.
If I'm not recalling correctly, then you are definitely right; there must have been some EV spread/nature issue going on.
Either way, my point is the same: Protean is a double-edged sword.
It'd be a hassle to quote it on my phone, but I recall a gentleman in this thread saying that Spikes is mostly a gimmick? Well, that is entirely untrue. I've been testing an offensive Spikes set with Life Orb for some time and find that Ice/Water/Bug retains most of his usual coverage while giving him something to do in the face of his defensive checks. Greninja fits perfectly on offensive teams and setting up a layer here or there when the opportunity presents itself really helps the team out. I have a feeling I will be using 3 attacks + Spikes more in the future.
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This is what I've been using, and it seems to be the most consistent set for me. Spikes is mostly filler, but when you get a free turn to set up, free hazards are free hazards. Plus, it's not like you really -need- that slot for much else anyways. The extra coverage can be ok in certain situations, but aside from Water/Bug/Ice having great coverage, you've got U-turn, so it's not like you're ever losing momentum by not having that coverage anyways. Plus, you can mess around with Rotom-W that switch in (obviously Spikes is on a lot of Greninja, so there are definitely times where you'll lose that prediction, but it's still fun when you win it). Most importantly, I don't feel like I'm wasting that teamslot against more defensive teams that laugh at all of Greninja's attacks.
Trace Megakazam isn't that good of an argument against Protean because that's the whole point of Trace, to take advantage of an opponent's Ability. Porygon-2 would Trace Heatran's Flash Fire back in BW and take advantage of it, but that didn't make Flash Fire a bad ability in the slightest. More importantly, it was clear that you would Focus Blast the dark type, and your opponent should have taken this into account while attacking. Understanding how Protean works in combat takes half the edge off.
I'm sorry but I'd have to disagree. HP Fire is all around the better option, as it rounds of your coverage, hitting a lot of 'mons that wall you hard. But I guess this is just a differance of opinion.
Not to mention that there are better spikers to choose from, such as Klefki.
I think the main advantage to using Spikes Greninja over Klefki is that Greninja has offensive presence and can keep momentum with U-turn. Klefki has superior defensive typing, can use Leftovers well, and has priority on Spikes (and Thunder Wave), but it can't force anything out.
I guess I agree with you on offensive spikes vs defensive spikes, but i have to say that there are a few things Klefki can force out. For instance, I just finished a battle on Showdown where my opponent used Swagger + Foul Play to turn the tables on me. My goal immediately became "get rid of those damn keys with my HP Fire Magnezone".
Unfortunately, swagger hax came into play and I was forced to switch my Magnezone out for fear of not having anything to deal with their Scizor.
However, that's off topic^
My opinion is that Greninja should be used as a late game cleaner, since he outspeeds most the OU tier, has excellent coverage, a great ability, and just enough offensive stats to sweep your opponents weakened team.
Furthermore, the moment your opponent discovers you have Spikes, you immediately have to be very careful about using them again, otherwise you could get destroyed by water and grass moves.
I'll leave the Spikes to the menacing keys...
Yeah, Klefki and Greninja play totally differently. That's like comparing Terrakion and Ferrothorn as Stealth Rock users. Both of them are good, but they certainly are not interchangeable. Offensive hazard users are good at forcing switches and setting up on said forced switches.
Excluding stuff that can't hurt it, thanks to its typing. Its better at the job than you'd think.
Honestly, both Spikes and HP Fire have their merits, and they, as well as the other options Greninja has, will be picked based on the team's need. HP Fire for Ferro, Spikes for lack of Spikes, Grass Knot for general coverage... Greninja isn't exactly lacking options in that last moveslot.
It's those qualities that makes Greninja a threatening Spiker, it has the power, speed, and movepool to force opponents out and get free turns, then it can U-Turn to regain lost momentum, all of which are awesome qualities for a Spiker.
I agree with this 100% I use greninja myself as a pseudo revenger/cleaner and often late game there isn't much that wants to be taking a STAB LO Dark Pulse on switch ins, and usually Greninja can safely OHKO them afterwards as well. It's speed and it's deceptive power make it so potent after the opponents scarfer(if they even have one) is gone. I honestly underestimated him but lately I've noticed that when I usually have 3 mons left he's usually right there and he can usually beat pretty much their whole team.
No one has mentioned a choice set. I know it wouldnt be as tricksy for protean ability but hear me out. Also no one has said anything about a full physical set so heres the choice band
Greninja Choice Band
ability: protean
nature: jolly/adamant
EVs: 4 HP 252 Att 252 Spd
Moveset:
water shuriken/waterfall
night slash
u-turn
rock slide/waterfall/power up punch
seeing how his attack isnt much lower than his spec attack and his speed is amazing giving him that band boost allows him to puch holes while access to u-turn allows him to scout. Tge first slot is really just stab preference. If your team has problems with certain scarfers than priority may be the better option (note water shuriken hits for 45 power or higher 75% of the time outclassing other priority like bullet/ mach punch) however with such high speed priority can be traded for power quite easily. Niggt slash gives dual stab and takes care of starmie celebi jellicent and aegislash (although in slashs case priority may be preferred). U-turn should be obvious plus with pritean it also gets stab and wrecks specially deffensive celebi that thinks it can take a dark pulse. Tge last slot is kind of weird however and should be tailored to your team. Rock slide hits gyarados nite and mence. Waterfall can be used as a fall back when you need more power if youre running shuriken as well and power up punch allows you to deal with ferrothorn (and boost your band haha) who otherwise checks the set, although stab u-turn does decent damage.
anyways just a thought and hopefully viable take on such a rad starter
Greninja Choice Band
ability: protean
nature: jolly/adamant
EVs: 4 HP 252 Att 252 Spd
Moveset:
water shuriken/waterfall
night slash
u-turn
rock slide/waterfall/power up punch
seeing how his attack isnt much lower than his spec attack and his speed is amazing giving him that band boost allows him to puch holes while access to u-turn allows him to scout. Tge first slot is really just stab preference. If your team has problems with certain scarfers than priority may be the better option (note water shuriken hits for 45 power or higher 75% of the time outclassing other priority like bullet/ mach punch) however with such high speed priority can be traded for power quite easily. Niggt slash gives dual stab and takes care of starmie celebi jellicent and aegislash (although in slashs case priority may be preferred). U-turn should be obvious plus with pritean it also gets stab and wrecks specially deffensive celebi that thinks it can take a dark pulse. Tge last slot is kind of weird however and should be tailored to your team. Rock slide hits gyarados nite and mence. Waterfall can be used as a fall back when you need more power if youre running shuriken as well and power up punch allows you to deal with ferrothorn (and boost your band haha) who otherwise checks the set, although stab u-turn does decent damage.
anyways just a thought and hopefully viable take on such a rad starter
Choice sets HAVE been mentioned, they just haven't gained any traction because you're wasting Protean by locking yourself in to one attack. There's Pokemon that are better suited through stats, movepool, and typing for Choice sets. I'm sure Greninja could be very effective as a Choiced attacker but you're not playing to his strengths half as well as he could and so he's much less dangerous.
I actually love Greninja with spikes but I have a very hard time choosing between toxic spikes/spikes + 3 moves for coverage or both spikes but only 2 moves for coverage. My team depends heavily on entry hazard and toxic spikes are so great against some threats which I can stall that it's really hard to choose.
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I go with mixed greninja.
Shadow sneak for priority that beats most priority and to help it resist attacks like mach punch and other normal and fighting attacks. Beats gengar too as it tries to focus blast greninja only for the attack to become worth less as it gains its ghost typing.
Ice beam
Surf
HP grass for rotom w especially and other common water types that would resist both ice and water attacks. Grass knot is a joke given how common rotom w is.
4 atk, 252 speed with positive speed nature and negative defense nature, 252 spcl at with life orb.
Shadow sneak for priority that beats most priority and to help it resist attacks like mach punch and other normal and fighting attacks. Beats gengar too as it tries to focus blast greninja only for the attack to become worth less as it gains its ghost typing.
Ice beam
Surf
HP grass for rotom w especially and other common water types that would resist both ice and water attacks. Grass knot is a joke given how common rotom w is.
4 atk, 252 speed with positive speed nature and negative defense nature, 252 spcl at with life orb.
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