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Pokémon Greninja

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Cool, thanks. Grass Knot'll fuck with Jellicent and Geldeo, at any rate.

Also, a part of me fears Swampert will get a bunch of new toys and will eventually get a mega, so just in case he somehow comes back to OU I'll be ready for him.
 
VCrowe said:
Yes, HP Fire deals more damage to Skarm and Klefki than Surf does.

I'm on my phone now as well so I'm not going to go through the hassle of doing those calcs, but I did them earlier, and HP Fire did more.



Not really, they hit completelly differant targets.
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2x SE Hidden Power hits stronger than STAB Hydro Pump, actually.
 
I know this was discussed a few pages back, but is Physical (or Physical-Mixed) Greninja really all that bad?

Greninja@Life Orb
Hasty / Jolly
Protean
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Power-Up Punch
- U-Turn
- Waterfall
- Ice Beam / Rock Slide

This set functions much differently from regular Special Greninja, its main aim being to abuse the PuP + U-Turn combo to punch speedy holes in whatever the opponent switches in, while keeping Greninja itself mostly safe aside from its own Life Orb recoil.

The threat of the SpA set will almost always force a switch, which you capitalize on with PuP; Nobody is switching a Ghost or Flying-type in against Greninja out of fear of Dark Pulse and Ice Beam, so chances are your PuP is getting at least a neutral hit. You can then either skidaddle with a +1 Protean U-Turn, or go for gold with your other +1 Attacks if whatever they switched in can't handle a surprise Physical variant.


Ice Beam allows you to comfortably beat all Dragons and Gliscor on Turn 1 (except Dragonite with Multiscale active, one of the main disadvantages of not maxing Greninja's SpA), while Rock Slide gives you another Physical Attack with which to take advantage of PuP at the cost of not being able to beat Garchomp or Salamence in a 1 v 1 situation (although Salamence cannot switch in, being beaten by a -1 PuP and a Rock Slide). Rock Slide does give slightly more neutral coverage than Ice Beam, and using it allows you to run Jolly and not sacrifice Greninja's Defense. Standard Gliscor risks 2HKO switching in against PuP and +1 Waterfall, so Ice Beam is not necessary for him either.

While obviously this set is inferior to the SpA set in terms of pure Turn 1 offense, I feel like the popularity of his "better" set is exactly what makes this one work better as a pivot. You catch them by surprise the first time you reveal yourself, possibly forcing a double switch once they realize you aren't SpA-based, and boosting your Attack at the same time. You then get to use Protean-boosted +1 U-Turn to maintain momentum. The next time your opponent comes in, they're switching in a more appropriate response... but it doesn't matter because PuP and +1 U-Turn are going to chip away at them anyway. If your team has any hazards going, the amount of damage this Greninja can rack up through switches and chip-damage U-Turns is great. It will be even stronger if M-Gengar gets banned, as currently the lack of a Dark-type move and the reliance on PuP gives M-Gengar the opportunity to switch in and trap.

I'm just floating my thoughts here. It seems to me Physical Greninja isn't as outclassed as everyone believes, but in fact is very useful (albeit in a different role).
 
Is there a reason why people seem to be so obsessed with running toxic spikes on greninja? Am I just missing something?
 
Barmy said:
possibly forcing a double switch once they realize you aren't SpA-based
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I'd like to see this actually happen... Greninja isn't going to fare well in OU with a physical set. All of those moves are low BP, and his attack stat isn't amazing. You might just do more damage and surprise the opponent running U-Turn in a special ak set with a creative HP or Grass Knot. Maybe I haven't built a team yet that fears physical greninja, but I honeslty don't think many OU pokemon fear physical greninja.
 
Jophail said:
Is there a reason why people seem to be so obsessed with running toxic spikes on greninja? Am I just missing something?
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Greninja is arguably the best TS user in the game. With Protean it becomes a poison-type, turning four (Bug, Fairy, Fighting and Grass) of its weaknesses into resistances.
The types poison is weak to, ground and psychic, are easily covered by Greninja's water and dark STAB.
 
Garchompi said:
Greninja is arguably the best TS user in the game. With Protean it becomes a poison-type, turning four (Bug, Fairy, Fighting and Grass) of its weaknesses into resistances.
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Yes, but with the defenses of wet tissue paper, it doesn't make much of a differance. At least Spikes gives you an immunity.

The only hits Greninja can survive as any type are weak resisted hits, which doesn't help considering Greninja's most common counters are hard hitters like Talonflame.

Edit: Greninja'd by Dinosaurman :/
 
Greninja might have terrible defenses, but it doesn't change the fact that turning a weakness into a resistance is the equivalent, assuming good prediction, of reducing the damage from an incoming attack by 75%.
A scenario where the above can apply is laying down TS as your opponent switches Breloom in, who can no longer just Mach Punch Greninja's face into oblivion.

This metagame is not very kind to Toxic Spikes though, since steel types, M-Gengar and Defog are everywhere.
 
Garchompi said:
This metagame is not very kind to Toxic Spikes though, since steel types, M-Gengar and Defog are everywhere.
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This is the exact reason why normal Spikes is the better option, as only flying types and levitators are immune to them, while the same are immune to T. Spikes along with Steel types, as well as getting removed every time a poison type switches in. Not to mention there are things like Heal Bell and aromatherapy that while not being to common, can make Toxic Spikes virtually useless.

There are only two ways to remove Spikes, while there are three ways to remove Toxic Spikes, as well as the various ways to to simply heal the poison. All this being said, to me it seems like the only reason to use T Spikes on Greninja are for the resistances, which are a waste of a moveslot if you ask me.
 
VCrowe said:
This is the exact reason why normal Spikes is the better option, as only flying types and levitators are immune to them, while the same are immune to T. Spikes along with Steel types, as well as getting removed every time a poison type switches in. Not to mention there are things like Heal Bell and aromatherapy that while not being to common, can make Toxic Spikes virtually useless.

There are only two ways to remove Spikes, while there are three ways to remove Toxic Spikes, as well as the various ways to to simply heal the poison. All this being said, to me it seems like the only reason to use T Spikes on Greninja are for the resistances, which are a waste of a moveslot if you ask me.
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Still, Toxic Spikes can be build around, while spikes is just a damaging entry hazard.

Anyway, I've been using greninja as a semi suicide lead. Toxic Spikes, U-Turn, Shadow Sneak and Water Shuriken with Focus Sash. Set enough spikes and U-turn out. You can always switch in later again with rapid spin support and use stabbed priority moves. Deals surprisingly much damage.
 
Why the physical set? It's completely outclassed by mixed and special sets.

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 88 Atk / 168 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power Fire

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP or 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 spd
Hasty/Timid Nature
- U-turn/Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Hidden Power Fire[/hide

This metagame is not very kind to Toxic Spikes though, since steel types
 
VCrowe said:
Why the physical set? It's completely outclassed by mixed and special sets.

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 88 Atk / 168 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power Fire

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP or 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 spd
Hasty/Timid Nature
- U-turn/Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Hidden Power Fire
Click to expand...
whaddup with different spreads for essentially the same set, except one has an alternate slash?
just call both the mixed set [because the special one isn't purely special] and axe the inferior one stat-wise.
 
Shiruba said:
whaddup with different spreads for essentially the same set, except one has an alternate slash?
just call both the mixed set [because the special one isn't purely special] and axe the inferior one stat-wise.
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There are calculations for the 'Mixed Set' some pages back that show the reason for the 88 Atk EV's.

Shiruba, here are those calcs. They were done with 96 Atk, but that hardly makes a differance.

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Scizor: 442-530 (128.48 - 154.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 257-304 (70.6 - 83.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 468-551 (128.57 - 151.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 608-717 (157.51 - 185.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 312-369 (93.41 - 110.47%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 302-359 (85.79 - 101.98%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 614-723 (173.44 - 204.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 702-827 (196.08 - 231%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 769-910 (218.46 - 258.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 351-416 (108.66 - 128.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 330-393 (101.22 - 120.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-T: 811-957 (212.86 - 251.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 406-478 (145.51 - 171.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO

168 SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 281-330 (93.35 - 109.63%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

96 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Celebi: 421-499 (123.46 - 146.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 120 Atk / 136 SAtk
Naive Nature
- Water Shuriken
- Ice Beam
- Power-Up Punch
- Shadow Sneak

Credit for much of this set goes to TEzeon, same nature and EV spread, just change-up in moves. He included HP Fairy, but as it's not yet available in Showdown and that's what I use to battle, decided to look into alternatives. As one of Protean Greninja's best coverage moves, Ice Beam, renders it fodder against anything using Bullet Punch or Mach Punch, decided to throw in two priority moves of his own; Water Shuriken, allowing a Steel resistance to take the Bullet Punch easier(still a good idea to stay away from Choice Banded Technician Scizor/Mega Scizor, lol), and Shadow Sneak, making Greninja immune to Mach Punch entirely. Power-Up Punch is there as a means to boost attack, building momentum to use Water Shuriken and Shadow Sneak more effectively, and dishing out a bit of damage at the same time.

Not sure how effective this would be, as it relies pretty heavily on getting a Power-Up Punch off and killing a couple of things before building enough momentum to do much damage. If anything, one could always run a primarily specially offensive set and just keep Shadow Sneak; given Greninja's frail defenses, even a resisted Bullet Punch will leave a dent non-conducive with Life Orb recoil, and Shadow Sneak provides two type immunities, and Mach Punch immunity in particular, running Dark Pulse and Ice Beam.
 
As of now, but indeed. Shouldn't be up for discussion until it does exist, if it should. Don't see why not though.

I dunno. Protean can run two ways in my mind, either fully offensive to make use of the STAB perks, and a more gimmicky approach to make use of the high speed stat, to change type and resist a ton of things. I'm trying to find something in the second category, or that straddles between the two. Hidden Power Steel looks promising, with only three weaknesses(albeit, to the three virtually universal attacking types), and Greninja gets coverage against all of these with it's other moves to both resist attacks of the that type and deal SE on Pokemon of that type. So, I'm hopeful for defensive Greninja being something that exists. Almost certainly not commonly, but perhaps viable on the right team.

And Spikes. Guy I follow on Youtube, goes by the name of Rykard, makes a lot of interesting sets.

Greninja @ Leftovers
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Bold Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Shadow Sneak
- Scald/Hidden Power Steel

Pretty much the whole point of this one is set up as many hazards as possible and switch type to predicted moves as possible.
 
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Just to resist a whole bunch of stuff, essentially. It's nerfed a bit in this gen, as you no longer resist Ghost and Dark, both of which hit SE if you're in Shadow Sneak, but the resistances it does give you and immunity to poison is pretty hefty.
 
Mjolnir128 said:
And Spikes. Guy I follow on Youtube, goes by the name of Rykard, makes a lot of interesting sets.

Greninja @ Leftovers
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Bold Nature
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Shadow Sneak
- Scald/Hidden Power Steel

Pretty much the whole point of this one is set up as many hazards as possible and switch type to predicted moves as possible.
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I think this set could benefit with having U-Turn in the 4th slot. It makes the set all physical and allows you to get out safely and inflict damage when something dangerous to Greninja is coming.

EDIT: Changing the EV's to invest more in Speed and Attack (especially Speed) wouldn't be a bad idea either.
 
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