Pokémon Greninja

[AOPSUser]

Greninja already outspeeds the majority of the OU tier, and there are better Scarfers out there.

Scarf Greninja outspeeds all common Scarfers, and unless the Scarfer in question is Rotom-W chances are it is going down pretty hard.

Choice Scarfs are becoming increasingly rare, as is boosting sweepers. A Scarf does not predicate a revenge killer, don't use your connotation for the definition. If Greninja can switch in on and then KO a Pokemon threatening to sweep your team then it is a revenge killer. Try and run Dragon Dance Dragonite and expect to get through Talonflame, then tell me whether or not a Scarf makes a revenge killer.

Greninja has awesome coverage, unlike Talonflame, allowing it to revenge kill many different Pokemon. It also doesn't lose a third of its HP every time it deals damage. Also to be fair:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 246-289 (75.9 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scarf Greninja can revenge kill almost any setup sweeper unless they get to +2 Speed, it can revenge kill almost every Scarfer there is, and it can outspeed +2 Speed Cloyster.

 

[Shiruba]

This is a list of all Pokemon considered at least somewhat OU-viable [that are not banned] that outspeed Greninja outside of priority:
Noivern
Weavile
Talonflame
Jolteon
Aerodactyl/Mega Aerodactyl
Mega Alakazam
Deoxys-Speed

Only Talonflame and Deo-S are common and the former will just out-prioritize you anyway, while Deoxys can't do much to you unless it packs Superpower [and how many Deoxys/Talonflame run max speed anyway? Almost none, iirc]
I'd say that, while it's not Talonflame-level in the sense that it can even beat Scarf Max Speed Deoxys-S due to its priority, Greninja is still fast enough to be considered a "revenge-killer," as it's faster than almost the entire unboosted tier [especially as Noivern, Weavile, and Jolteon are likely to drop], and I guess you could run one of its priority options if you're desperate or have a special set in mind.
[Special as in unique, not as in the opposite of Physical]
PS: I think I found the source of that stuff from earlier:

Lay on me, /vp/oreons.

 

[AOPSUser]

This is a list of all Pokemon considered at least somewhat OU-viable [that are not banned] that outspeed Greninja outside of priority:
Noivern
Weavile
Talonflame
Jolteon
Aerodactyl/Mega Aerodactyl
Mega Alakazam
Deoxys-Speed

Only Talonflame and Deo-S are common and the former will just out-prioritize you anyway, while Deoxys can't do much to you unless it packs Superpower [and how many Deoxys/Talonflame run max speed anyway? Almost none, iirc]
I'd say that, while it's not Talonflame-level in the sense that it can even beat Scarf Max Speed Deoxys-S due to its priority, Greninja is still fast enough to be considered a "revenge-killer," as it's faster than almost the entire unboosted tier [especially as Noivern, Weavile, and Jolteon are likely to drop], and I guess you could run one of its priority options if you're desperate or have a special set in mind.
[Special as in unique, not as in the opposite of Physical]
PS: I think I found the source of that stuff from earlier:

Lay on me, /vp/oreons.

List of common Scarfers that outspeed max speed Greninja:

-Rotom-W
-Terrakion
-Keldeo
-Salamence
-Garchomp
-Gengar
-Latios
-Hydreigon
-Kyurem-B
-Jirachi

List of common speed boosters that outspeed max speed Greninja:

-Mega Charizard X
-Salamence
-Dragonite
-(Mega) Gyarados
-Cloyster after a Shell Smash

Other stuff that run around in OU:

-Scarf Diggersby
-Agility Diggersby
-DD/Scarf Haxorus
-Scarf Victini
-Scarf Politoed
-Agility Metagross

There's a lot more out there I didn't bother to list, but you can see why people would want to Scarf their Greninja. I've worked with Scarf Noivern before too, but Greninja has lots of coverage options. It can't do anything to Rotom-W but neither can Talonflame.

Also fuck VP.

 

[1337roll]

I'm currently running a Greninja with:

Greninja@ Focus Sash/Expert Belt
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- U-turn

I'm debating if protect is a good move on greninja or not and which move I should be switching it with. I want to play greninja as a scouting late mid to late game sweeper. In my opinion, a status'd greninja is a dead greninja, so that's why I've been really conflicted with the move protect and to teach it or not. Being a scout it wants to trap people into using certain moves and/or take status moves with ease.

Any suggestions?

 

[TKGriffiths]

I'm currently running a Greninja with:

Greninja@ Focus Sash/Expert Belt
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- U-turn

I'm debating if protect is a good move on greninja or not and which move I should be switching it with. I want to play greninja as a scouting late mid to late game sweeper. In my opinion, a status'd greninja is a dead greninja, so that's why I've been really conflicted with the move protect and to teach it or not. Being a scout it wants to trap people into using certain moves and/or take status moves with ease.

Any suggestions?

I don't like Grass Knot because you already have coverage on rock and ground pokes with Hydro Pump/Surf, and most popular water pokes are really light so it does no real damage (HP Grass is stronger against Rotom for example).

 

[Magicfire]

I don't like Grass Knot because you already have coverage on rock and ground pokes with Hydro Pump/Surf, and most popular water pokes are really light so it does no real damage (HP Grass is stronger against Rotom for example).

Actually, Rotom-Wash is the only thing Hidden Power Grass outdamages Grass Knot on. If your team struggles with Psychic and Ghost types, then use Dark Pulse, if your team struggles with Fighting types, then use Extrasensory. The coverage moves depend on personal preference.

Any suggestions?

Don't use Protect. You're much better off with U-Turn or another coverage move.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I'm currently running a Greninja with:

Greninja@ Focus Sash/Expert Belt
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- U-turn

I'm debating if protect is a good move on greninja or not and which move I should be switching it with. I want to play greninja as a scouting late mid to late game sweeper. In my opinion, a status'd greninja is a dead greninja, so that's why I've been really conflicted with the move protect and to teach it or not. Being a scout it wants to trap people into using certain moves and/or take status moves with ease.

Any suggestions?

Why Focus Sash? It seems that in order for Sash to be useful, you have to Rapid Spin. It is not likely it is a lead that will get an extra hazard.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Actually, Rotom-Wash is the only thing Hidden Power Grass outdamages Grass Knot on. If your team struggles with Psychic and Ghost types, then use Dark Pulse, if your team struggles with Fighting types, then use Extrasensory. The coverage moves depend on personal preference.

Yes I know that's why I mentioned only him specifically, but other pokes like Vaporeon, Azumarill, Gastrodon, Alomomola, Omastar, Lanturn, Greninja, Kabutops and Keldeo are still only hit for 60 BP (same as hidden power) which is poor for a coverage move and nowhere near enough to OHKO or even 2HKO some of them. Surely you'd agree that hidden power fire is a better option because it actually lets you beat an otherwise rock solid counter in Ferrothorn along with hitting Scizor, Forretress and Genesect.

 

[Magicfire]

Yes I know that's why I mentioned only him specifically, but other pokes like Vaporeon, Azumarill, Gastrodon, Alomomola, Omastar, Lanturn, Greninja, Kabutops and Keldeo are still only hit for 60 BP (same as hidden power) which is poor for a coverage move and nowhere near enough to OHKO or even 2HKO some of them. Surely you'd agree that hidden power fire is a better option because it actually lets you beat an otherwise rock solid counter in Ferrothorn along with hitting Scizor, Forretress and Genesect.

Yeah, but the set I'm using has both Grass Knot and Hidden Power Fire. I see what you mean though, and I agree.

 

[1337roll]

I don't like Grass Knot because you already have coverage on rock and ground pokes with Hydro Pump/Surf, and most popular water pokes are really light so it does no real damage (HP Grass is stronger against Rotom for example).

Grass Knot is for bulky waters that will pretty much destroy Greninja, regardless of early, mid, late phase. examples of suicune, feraligatr, jellicent in the late game cannot compete with 122 speed grass knot. HP fire is only good for skarmory I find as any metal type running sturdy can OHKO Greninja with a power gem after HP fire. HP fire works on ferrathorn for sure but there are better switches than an HP fire

Actually, Rotom-Wash is the only thing Hidden Power Grass outdamages Grass Knot on. If your team struggles with Psychic and Ghost types, then use Dark Pulse, if your team struggles with Fighting types, then use Extrasensory. The coverage moves depend on personal preference.

Don't use Protect. You're much better off with U-Turn or another coverage move.

Like I said, this is a sweeping scout, not an all-out attacker. The only place greninja could shine in my opinion is the late game phase where generally the squishy pokemon have fainted and you have the tanky pokemon left. Even though Greninja can outspeed them with ease bar some choice scarfs, Greninja really can't take a hit. And I said before, a status'd Greninja is a dead Greninja, unless you're running someone with natural cure to take statuses up front, it's very hard to predict against a prankster w-o-wisper or toxic/thunder-wave when u-turn isn't priority. U-turn isn't awesome damage, it's only 105 after Protean STAB, which given the lack of attack EVs invested it won't hit hard at all. Considering that, would you still run a coverage move given this situation where status inflicting is pretty much key in the current Meta.

 

[VCrowe]

Grass Knot is for bulky waters that will pretty much destroy Greninja, regardless of early, mid, late phase. examples of suicune, feraligatr, jellicent in the late game cannot compete with 122 speed grass knot. HP fire is only good for skarmory I find as any metal type running sturdy can OHKO Greninja with a power gem after HP fire. HP fire works on ferrathorn for sure but there are better switches than an HP fire



Like I said, this is a sweeping scout, not an all-out attacker. The only place greninja could shine in my opinion is the late game phase where generally the squishy pokemon have fainted and you have the tanky pokemon left. Even though Greninja can outspeed them with ease bar some choice scarfs, Greninja really can't take a hit. And I said before, a status'd Greninja is a dead Greninja, unless you're running someone with natural cure to take statuses up front, it's very hard to predict against a prankster w-o-wisper or toxic/thunder-wave when u-turn isn't priority. U-turn isn't awesome damage, it's only 105 after Protean STAB, which given the lack of attack EVs invested it won't hit hard at all. Considering that, would you still run a coverage move given this situation where status inflicting is pretty much key in the current Meta.

HP Fire can effectively dispose of Scizor, as well as weakened Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory (as you stated), and to a certain extent Aegislash if you dont have Dark Pulse.
Getting a OHKO with HP Fire isnt neccesary since you want to use Greninja to clean up the weakened opposition. Really anything he can 2HKO with HP Fire is a good reason to run it.

 

[1337roll]

HP Fire can effectively dispose of Scizor, as well as weakened Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory (as you stated), and to a certain extent Aegislash if you dont have Dark Pulse.
Getting a OHKO with HP Fire isnt neccesary since you want to use Greninja to clean up the weakened opposition. Really anything he can 2HKO with HP Fire is a good reason to run it.

He can 2HKO everything you just stated bar Ferrothorn with surf though; given that they're weakened from status or stealth rock/spike damage which is your preceding situation.

 

[1337roll]

HP Fire can effectively dispose of Scizor, as well as weakened Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory (as you stated), and to a certain extent Aegislash if you dont have Dark Pulse.
Getting a OHKO with HP Fire isnt neccesary since you want to use Greninja to clean up the weakened opposition. Really anything he can 2HKO with HP Fire is a good reason to run it.

So would you go for HP fire instead of Surf? Cause Protean makes everything STAB anyways

 

[TKGriffiths]

Nah Surf/Hydro Pump are his strongest (reliable/spammable) attacks so they can't be dropped IMO. Tbh I think HP Fire is worth it just to get rid of Ferrothorn (which would totally troll your set otherwise and even break your focus sash when you U-Turn) and Genesect which are extremely popular. Tbh Greninja is an excellent Ferrothorn lure. And it is demonstrably useful against other stuff. I won't post the Skarmory and Ferrothorn calcs because you understand it's good there but here's some others.

252 SpA Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 336-396 (94.9 - 111.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 124-147 (35 - 41.5%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 408-480 (118.6 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 151-178 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 336-396 (97.6 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 126-148 (36.6 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 352-420 (124.3 - 148.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 132-156 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

It makes about 20% HP's worth of difference on Lucario, doesn't make much difference in a vacuum in terms of turning the 2HKO into a 1HKO but if Lucario has a Life Orb instead of being a mega, HP Fire would virtually guarantee the KO after one life orb recoil whereas Surf needs 4 life orb recoils. Not that useful at the moment but in the future it might be relevant.

 

[Dododoggy]

I personally think greninja is an average poké. It has its pro's and con's but what I love about it is its amazing ability protean and its above average move pool! I think having access to moves such as Surf,Hydro pump,Ice beam,U-turn,Extrasensory, And even spikes making him for an impressive lead or revenge killer!!!

 

[JustLetMePlay]

Choice Scarf Greninja carrying Hidden Power Fire is a fantastic Genesect lure that can function as a great revenge killing scarfer outside of that niche. Scarf!Genesect is an extremely common lead and a very prominent threat in OU currently, and Greninja leads are prime candidates for Genesects to stay in and U-turn, but Scarf Greninja can eliminate them straight away with HP Fire.

Before any stupid comments about 'wasting' protean come in: Scarf!Greninja treats Protean as +1 to everything, which honestly is what all the other non-defensive (lol) Greninja sets do anyway.

 

[eesang]

I think Scald is one of the best choices for Greninja's Water STAB.

Almost anything it 2HKO's with Life Orb, both Surf and Hydro Pump would 2HKO as well:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 265-315 (65.5 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 276-328 (71.5 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 226-268 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 198-237 (51.2 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Some Pokemon you would want at least Hydro Pump for are:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 265-313 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 177-211 (44.9 - 53.5%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO

Some Pokemon you would want at least Surf for are:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 312-369 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 281-330 (90 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 393-463 (102.3 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arcanine: 351-413 (91.4 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 164-192 (47.6 - 55.8%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 144-172 (41.8 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

There are more examples of course, but most of the stuff in OU weak to Water will die to Scald or take the same amount of hits with Hydro Pump/Surf. You will get the most out of Scald because of the Burns you can get on Water-resistant switch ins.

 

[1337roll]

Choice Scarf Greninja carrying Hidden Power Fire is a fantastic Genesect lure that can function as a great revenge killing scarfer outside of that niche. Scarf!Genesect is an extremely common lead and a very prominent threat in OU currently, and Greninja leads are prime candidates for Genesects to stay in and U-turn, but Scarf Greninja can eliminate them straight away with HP Fire.

Before any stupid comments about 'wasting' protean come in: Scarf!Greninja treats Protean as +1 to everything, which honestly is what all the other non-defensive (lol) Greninja sets do anyway.

Though I wouldn't use Greninja as a lead, and I would never use it as an all out Sweeper. IMO, Greninja functions well as the sweeping scout, coming in late game to get rid of weaker oppositions. Status pranksters just shut down Greninja immediately.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

Though I wouldn't use Greninja as a lead, and I would never use it as an all out Sweeper. IMO, Greninja functions well as the sweeping scout, coming in late game to get rid of weaker oppositions. Status pranksters just shut down Greninja immediately.

Yes, but but you're missing the point. Genesect is a common lead, and Choice Scarf Greninja baits and eliminates it quite efficiently with HP Fire, which is a pretty powerful niche considering how common and threatening Genesect is currently. In addition, Greninja still functions as a fantastic late game cleaner and revenge killer while utilising this set so it's not gimmicky in the least.

 

[1337roll]

Yes, but but you're missing the point. Genesect is a common lead, and Choice Scarf Greninja baits and eliminates it quite efficiently with HP Fire, which is a pretty powerful niche considering how common and threatening Genesect is currently. In addition, Greninja still functions as a fantastic late game cleaner and revenge killer while utilising this set so it's not gimmicky in the least.

I understand your point perfectly. However, Genesect is in Uber Tier and regardless, pranksters are also very Common as a lead. A sableye lead with will-o-wisp onto a genesect lead pretty much makes genesect useless with the x0.5 attack burn debuff. There are other counter leads to genesect which have a much better kick off than Greninja does. Greninja is there to check the Genesect and OHKO it, not necessarily ensuring that the opposition's entire team can be weakened or accounted for, which is what most leads should be doing nowadays.

 

[Magcargo]

I understand your point perfectly. However, Genesect is in Uber Tier and regardless, pranksters are also very Common as a lead. A sableye lead with will-o-wisp onto a genesect lead pretty much makes genesect useless with the x0.5 attack burn debuff. There are other counter leads to genesect which have a much better kick off than Greninja does. Greninja is there to check the Genesect and OHKO it, not necessarily ensuring that the opposition's entire team can be weakened or accounted for, which is what most leads should be doing nowadays.

Genesect was unbanned in X and Y, so it currently resides in the Overused tier.

 

[AOPSUser]

Though I wouldn't use Greninja as a lead, and I would never use it as an all out Sweeper. IMO, Greninja functions well as the sweeping scout, coming in late game to get rid of weaker oppositions. Status pranksters just shut down Greninja immediately.

Greninja is hit-and-run. When one of its counters comes out it runs. Klefki is one of the mons that will cripple it heavily with T-Wave+Light Screen. Run.

I understand your point perfectly. However, Genesect is in Uber Tier and regardless, pranksters are also very Common as a lead. A sableye lead with will-o-wisp onto a genesect lead pretty much makes genesect useless with the x0.5 attack burn debuff. There are other counter leads to genesect which have a much better kick off than Greninja does. Greninja is there to check the Genesect and OHKO it, not necessarily ensuring that the opposition's entire team can be weakened or accounted for, which is what most leads should be doing nowadays.

Genesect is not Ubers yet, and Sableye doesn't even help against Special Genesect, which is the most common. If you want to status it, paralyze it, instead of letting your Sableye get 2HKOed by a +1 Bug Buzz or something. Greninja can actually kill ScarfSect because Genesect doesn't expect the Scarf.

 

[1337roll]

Greninja is hit-and-run. When one of its counters comes out it runs. Klefki is one of the mons that will cripple it heavily with T-Wave+Light Screen. Run.



Genesect is not Ubers yet, and Sableye doesn't even help against Special Genesect, which is the most common. If you want to status it, paralyze it, instead of letting your Sableye get 2HKOed by a +1 Bug Buzz or something. Greninja can actually kill ScarfSect because Genesect doesn't expect the Scarf.

Greninja Lead only checks scarfsect without doing much else, I find it a waste to let Greninja be the lead to check only lead scarfsect while putting down other great lead options. I don't disagree with the fact that HP Fire is a guaranteed ohko on scarfsect if the ninja gets a pretty scarf as well.

Greninja is hit-and-run. When one of its counters comes out it runs. Klefki is one of the mons that will cripple it heavily with T-Wave+Light Screen. Run.



Genesect is not Ubers yet, and Sableye doesn't even help against Special Genesect, which is the most common. If you want to status it, paralyze it, instead of letting your Sableye get 2HKOed by a +1 Bug Buzz or something. Greninja can actually kill ScarfSect because Genesect doesn't expect the Scarf.

Last time I check, Genesect was in Ubers or Doubles. http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/genesect Maybe it's out of date?

 

[Arcticblast]

That's for Black and White.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

Greninja Lead only checks scarfsect without doing much else, I find it a waste to let Greninja be the lead to check only lead scarfsect while putting down other great lead options. I don't disagree with the fact that HP Fire is a guaranteed ohko on scarfsect if the ninja gets a pretty scarf as well.

It eliminates ScarfSect leads by virtue of being an uncommon and underrated set that baits Genesect into staying in and isn't pigeonholed into the one role because it functions just fine as a revenge killer on top of that.

Due to its naturally high base speed, Greninja can even afford to run a positive nature to give it back some of the oomph it loses by forgoing life orb since it's outspeeding the entirety of the unscarfed tier (barring perhaps Deoxys-S) and most of the scarfed tier (it outspeeds all the scarf'd base 100s with a neutral nature, for instance - it unfortunately comes just short of outspeeding positive natured scarf'd muskateers) regardless.

I think your issue is you think I'm saying that once you slap a scarf on Greninja you 100% have to use it as a lead every single battle and not only that, but it appears as though you think I'm saying that you can't run any other dedicated leads (which I believe are antiquated notions anyway) if you run Scarf!Greninja. That's obviously not what I'm saying, I'm saying it's got a niche as an anti-lead against teams that use Genesect, and that in itself is a very powerful option.